Skip to main content

Full text of "Cobbett's complete collection of state trials and proceedings for high treason and other crimes and misdemeanors from the earliest period to the present time"

See other formats


Google 


This  is  a  digital  copy  of  a  book  that  was  preserved  for  generations  on  library  shelves  before  it  was  carefully  scanned  by  Google  as  part  of  a  project 

to  make  the  world's  books  discoverable  online. 

It  has  survived  long  enough  for  the  copyright  to  expire  and  the  book  to  enter  the  public  domain.  A  public  domain  book  is  one  that  was  never  subject 

to  copyright  or  whose  legal  copyright  term  has  expired.  Whether  a  book  is  in  the  public  domain  may  vary  country  to  country.  Public  domain  books 

are  our  gateways  to  the  past,  representing  a  wealth  of  history,  culture  and  knowledge  that's  often  difficult  to  discover. 

Marks,  notations  and  other  maiginalia  present  in  the  original  volume  will  appear  in  this  file  -  a  reminder  of  this  book's  long  journey  from  the 

publisher  to  a  library  and  finally  to  you. 

Usage  guidelines 

Google  is  proud  to  partner  with  libraries  to  digitize  public  domain  materials  and  make  them  widely  accessible.  Public  domain  books  belong  to  the 
public  and  we  are  merely  their  custodians.  Nevertheless,  this  work  is  expensive,  so  in  order  to  keep  providing  tliis  resource,  we  liave  taken  steps  to 
prevent  abuse  by  commercial  parties,  including  placing  technical  restrictions  on  automated  querying. 
We  also  ask  that  you: 

+  Make  non-commercial  use  of  the  files  We  designed  Google  Book  Search  for  use  by  individuals,  and  we  request  that  you  use  these  files  for 
personal,  non-commercial  purposes. 

+  Refrain  fivm  automated  querying  Do  not  send  automated  queries  of  any  sort  to  Google's  system:  If  you  are  conducting  research  on  machine 
translation,  optical  character  recognition  or  other  areas  where  access  to  a  large  amount  of  text  is  helpful,  please  contact  us.  We  encourage  the 
use  of  public  domain  materials  for  these  purposes  and  may  be  able  to  help. 

+  Maintain  attributionTht  GoogXt  "watermark"  you  see  on  each  file  is  essential  for  in  forming  people  about  this  project  and  helping  them  find 
additional  materials  through  Google  Book  Search.  Please  do  not  remove  it. 

+  Keep  it  legal  Whatever  your  use,  remember  that  you  are  responsible  for  ensuring  that  what  you  are  doing  is  legal.  Do  not  assume  that  just 
because  we  believe  a  book  is  in  the  public  domain  for  users  in  the  United  States,  that  the  work  is  also  in  the  public  domain  for  users  in  other 
countries.  Whether  a  book  is  still  in  copyright  varies  from  country  to  country,  and  we  can't  offer  guidance  on  whether  any  specific  use  of 
any  specific  book  is  allowed.  Please  do  not  assume  that  a  book's  appearance  in  Google  Book  Search  means  it  can  be  used  in  any  manner 
anywhere  in  the  world.  Copyright  infringement  liabili^  can  be  quite  severe. 

About  Google  Book  Search 

Google's  mission  is  to  organize  the  world's  information  and  to  make  it  universally  accessible  and  useful.   Google  Book  Search  helps  readers 
discover  the  world's  books  while  helping  authors  and  publishers  reach  new  audiences.  You  can  search  through  the  full  text  of  this  book  on  the  web 

at|http: //books  .google  .com/I 


COMPLETE    COLLECTION 

OF 

State  Trials 


AND 

PROCEEDINGS   FOR   HIGH   TREASON   AND   OTHEai 

CRIMES  AND  MISDEMEANORS 

FROM  THE 

EARLIEST  PERIOD  TO  THE  YEAR  1783, 

« 

WITH  KOTES  AXD  OTHER  ILLUSTRATIONS: 

0OMPIL£I)  BY 

T.  B.   HOWELL,  Esq.  F.R.S.  F.S.A. 

-^  INCLUDING, 

IN   ADDITION   TO   THE   WHOLE  OF  THE   MATTER  CONTAINED   IN   THE 

I 

FOLIO   EDITION  OF  HARGRAVE, 

WPWAIBLDS    OF   TWO    HUNDRED    CASES    X  EVER    BEFORE    COLLECTED; 

TO   WHICH   IS   SUBJOINED 

A  Table  of  Parallel  Reference, 

EIBDEBIIIO   THIS  EDITION   APPLICABLE   TO   THOSE  BOOKS   OF   AUTHORITY   IN 
WHICH   REFERENCES  ARE   MADE  TO   THE   FOLIO    EDITION. 


IN    TWENTY-ONE   VOLUMES. 

VOL.    XXL 

18—19  GEORGE  lU 1778—1779. 


LONDON: 

Vrwud  by  7.  C.  Hmuard,  Peterborviigk-Cwrt^  FUetStreet : 

LONGMAN,  HURST,  R££S,  ORME,  and  BROWN ;  J.  M.  RICHARDSON ; 
BLACK,  PARBURY,  anb  ALLEN;  BALDWIN,  CRADOCK,  akd  JOY; 
£.  JEFFERY;  J.  HATOBbARD;  R.  H.  EVANS;  J.  BOOKER;  £.  LLOYD; 
J.  J300TU;  BUDD  aAd  CALKIN;  AND  T.  C.  HANSARD. 

1816. 


UBRAffYOFTHE 
AUG  27  1900 


TABLE   OF  CONTENTS 


TO 

VOLUME  XXI. 


REIGN  OF  KING  GEORGE  THE  THIRD. 

KB.  The  Case  of  the  ROYAL  HOSPITAL  for  SEAMEN  at 
GREENWICH,  in  relation  to  alleged  Mismanagement  and 
Abuses  therein;  and  Proceedings  against  Captain  THOMAS 
BAILLIE,  Lieutenant-Governor  of  the  said  Hospital,  under 
a  Prosecution  for  a  Libel  upon  certain  other  Officers  of  the  6ame« 

A.  D.  1778-1779  : 1 

fond  wk  Addenda.) 

563.  The  Proceedings  at  large  on  the  Trial  of  GEORGE  GORDON, 

esq.  commonly  called  Lord  GEORGE  GORDON,  for   High 
Treason,  in  the  Court  of  King*s-Bench,  Westminster,  a.  d,  1781      485 
(and  vide  Addenda.) 

4 

564.  The  Trial  of  FRANCIS  HENRY  DE  LA  MOTTE,   for  High 

Treason,  a.  d.  1781 687 

« 

565.  The  Trial  of  DAVID  TYRIE,  for  High  Treason,  at  the  Assizes  at 

Wmchester,  a.d.  1782  815 

566-  The  whole  Proceedings  on  an  Indictment  in  the  Case  of  the  KING, 
on  the  Prosecution  of  WILLIAM  JONES,  gent,  against  tlie  Rer. 
WILLIAM  DAVIES  SHIPLEY,  Dean  of  St.  Asaph,  for  a 
Seditious  Libel,  at  the  Great  Session  held  at  Wrexham,  for  the 

< 

County  of  Denbigh,  at  the  Assizes  for  the  County  of  Salop,  and 

in  the  Court  of  King's-Bench  at  Westminster,  a.  d.  1783-1784...    847 

667.  Proceedings  against  GEORGE  STRATTON,  HENRY  BROOKE, 
CHARLES  FLOYER,  and  GEORGE  MACKAY,  es^rs.  on  an 


TABLE  OF  CONTENTS. 

Infonnation  filed  against  them,  by  his  Majesty's  Attorney  Gene- 
ral, for  a  Misdemeanor,  in  arresting,  imprisoning,  and  deposing 
Greorge  Lord  Pigot,  Commander  in  Chief  of  the  Forces  in  Fort 
St.  George,  and  President  and  Governor  of  the  P&*esrdency  and 
Settlement  of  Madras,  in  the  East  Indies,  a.  d.  1779-1780. 
[Never  before  published]  ...•• 1045 


r 


ADDENDA. 


I.     lb  the  Case  of  Captain  Baillix. 

« In  the  Will  of  John  Barnard^  (son  to  the  late  patriotic  sir  John  Barnard,  many 
years  &ther  of  the  city  of  London)  late  of  the  Parish  of  St.  George,  Hanover-Square,  in 
the  county  of  Middlesex,  esquire,  deceased,  dated  the  6th  of  November,  1779,  among 
other  things  therein  contained^  is  as  follows :  '  I  give  to  captain  Thomas  Baillie^  late 
'  deputy-governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  five  hundred  pounds,  as  a  small  token  of  my 

*  approbation  of  his  worthy  and  disinterested,  though  ineffectual,  endeavours  to  rescue 

*  that  noble  national  chanty  from  the  rapacious  hands  of  the  basest  and  most  wicked  of 

*  mankind.'"    New  Annual  Register  for  1764  (Principal  Occurrences,  p.  97.) 

II.     To  the  Case  of  Lord  Georqe  Gordon. 

liord  George  Gordon  published  a  curious  (and,  as  \  have  reason  to  believe,  a  true) 
account  of  some  of  his  strange  proceedings  connected  with  the  transactions  out  of  which 
this  Trial  arose.  The  title  of  his  publicaUon  was,  ''  Innocence  Vindicated,  and  the 
Intrigues  of  Popeiy  and  its  Abettors  displayed  in  an  Authentic  Narrative  of  some 
transactions,  hiUierto  unknown,  rektting  to  a  late  Act  of  the  Britbh  Legislature  in 
fiivour  of  English  Frists,  and  the  Petiticm  presented  to  Parliament  for  its  Repeal.'' 

In  this  case  of  Lord  George  Gordon  were  first  exercised  the  privileges  granted  by 
Stat  7  Ann.  c.  21,  to  persons  indicted  for  High  Treason.  See  East's  Pleas  of  tiie  Crown, 
chap,  d,  sect,  4S ;  and  p.  648  of  this  volume. 

III.     To  the  Case  of  the  Dean  of  St.  Asaph. 

Of  the  Richmond  Park  business  mentioned  p.  858,  see  Vol.  SO,  p.  1389,  and  else- 
where. 


PARLIAMENTARY  WORKS. 
n^HE  PARLIAMENTARY  DEBATES,  FROM 

-■■  THE  YEAR  IB03  DOWN  TO  THE  PRESENT  TIME  j 
feimiog  a  CoDtinu4tion  of  the  Work  entitled,  **  The  PAR- 
LIAMENTARY HISTORY  OP  Emglakd,  from  the  earliest 
Period  to  the  Year  1803,"  publithed  under  the  Saperintendenee 
of  T.  C  HANSAIip. 

The  Sttbacribert  are  informed  that  Volume  XXVIl.  of  the 
above  Work,  comprising  the  Debates  in  both  Houses  from  the 
Opening  of  the  Session,  November  4,  1813,  to  June  6,  1814, 
may  be  had  of  their  respective  Booksellen.— Ptfter^p*  Courtp 
t^ltt  Auguti  IBU. 

^i^"*  Complete  Sets  of  the  Work,  in  97  Volumes,  may  be 
had.  The  Debates  of  the  present  Session  will  be  completed 
as  speedily  as  possible  ;  ail  CommmiicationB  forwarded  to  Mr. 
T.  C  Hansard  will  be  attended  tOi 

npHE  PARLIAMENTARY  HISTORY  or  ENG- 

^  LAND,  from*  the  Earliest  Period  to  the  Year  1803,  from, 
which  last  mentioned  epoch  it  is  continued  downwards  to  the 
present  time  in  the  Woric  entitled,  *'  The  PARLIAMENTARY 
DEBATES,"  pablished  under  the  Superintendence  of  T.  C. 
HANSARD. 

The  Twenty-Second  Volume  is  ready  for  delivery,  bringing 
the  Parliamentary  History  of  England  down  to  May  1*788. 

Printed  for  Longman,  Hant,'naes,  Ormey  and  Brown;  J. 
Richardson;  Black,  Parry,  and  Co.;  J.  Hatcbard;  J.  Ridg- 
way;  E.  Jeffiery;  J,  Booker;  J.  Rodwell;  Cradock  and  Joy; 
lUH. Evans  jBudd and  Calkin;  J.Bootb;  and T. C. HamanL 


A    COMPLETE    COLLECTION 


OF 


STATE    TRIALS. 


\_    W      '_- 


m»m»^m 


ihto-^B>^MHMbMMMli*i 


5G2.  The  CikSE  of  the  Royal  Hospital  for  Seamen  at  Greenwich^  ia 
relation  to  alleged  Mismanagement  ^and  Abuses  thereof;  and 
of  Captain  Thomas  Bailue^  Lieutenant^overnor  of  the  said 
Hospital^  under  a  Prosecution  for  a  Libel  upon  certain  other 
Officers  of  the  san»e :  18  &  19  George  III-  a.  d.  1778,  1779.* 


{The  following  particulars  I  have  extracted 
from  Captain  Baillie's  **  Introduction  to  the 
Procecdmgs  in  the  Court  of  King's-bench," 

Captain  BaiUie  prepared  and  caused  to  be 

Sinted,  a  book  entitled,  <<Thc  Case  and 
emoriai  of  the  Royal  Hospital  for  Sea- 
men at  Greenwich,  Addressed  to  the  Go- 
vernors and  Commissioners  thereof.*'  The 
« Case"  I  have  not  seen.  It  was  not  in- 
serted in  captain  Baillie's  '*  Solemn  Ap- 
peal," *•  because,"  as  he  states,  "  it  might 
create  fresh  disputes,  is  ver^  long,  and  the 
ereater  part  recapitulated  in  the  KingV 
Eench  and  House  of  Lords."  The  Memo- 
rial he  exhibits  as  follows : 

'  Bxttmeted  from  "  A  Solemn  Appeal  to  the  Pnb- 

lie,  from  an  iojured  Officer,  Cftptain  Bailtie,  late 

lieateaaDt    CSovernor  of  the  Rojal    Hoipital  for 

Seamen  at  Greenwich ;  arising  out  of  a  series  of  aa- 

theslic  Proceedittga  in  the  Coart  of  Ring't- bench  on 

mx  Praaecationa  against  him,  for  publiaiiing  certain 

liMft  (aa  it  ams  allcf^)  in  a  printed  '.<»<tk,  entitled, 

Tlie  Case  and  Memorial  of  Greenwic'.    <»jipita],  ad- 

-dressed  to  the  General  Qovemoni,  in  bei  -Jf  of  Dia- 

abJed  Seamen,  Widows,  and  Children ;   aod  the  Evi- 

deoee  giren  on  the  subeeqaent  Bnqnirj  at  Ibe  bar  of 

the  Hooae  of  Lords,  in  conseqaenco  of  the  sereral 

Prosecatioas  bdng  discharged  wilh  Coats.  -  London : 

Printed  for  Captain  Baillio  by  JF.  Almon,  opposite 

BaHing^on-hoose,  PSocadillj  ;   and  may  also  he  had 

of  Captain  Baillie,  at  Mr.  Roberts,  ohioa-man,  near 

Hatton  street,  Holtwm.    Price  two  g^aincas,  stitched 

in  sheets,  with  a  fine  eag^raring  of  captain  -Baillie,  in 

measotiato,  by  Janm  Wation/esq.  painted  by  Na- 

thaniei  Mooe,  esq.  of  the  Royal  Academy,  or  aepa- 

lale/j,  QWi  ^lUDM  Moh.     1779.*' 

VOL.  XXI. 


To  the  Commissioners  and  Governors  of  the 
Royal  Hospital  for  Seamen*  at  Greenwich, 

The  Memorial  of  Captain  Thomas  Bailliei 
Lieutenant  Governor  of  the  said  Hos* 
pital,  in  behalf  of  Disabled  Seamen, 
their  Wiapws  and  Children, 

Humbly  sheweth ; 

That  through  the  various  abuses  set  forth  in 
the  Case  prefixed,  the  British  navy  has 
been  deprived  of  the  full  benefit  of  this 
wise  and  munificent  establishment^  which 
the  generosity  of  princes,  and  the  grati* 
tude  of  the  public,  had  bestowed. 

That  landmen  have  been  introduced  into  the 
Hospital,  contrary  to  the  charter  and  ta 
the  spirit  of  the  institution;  and  that  some 
of  the  principal  wards  have  been  torn  down, 
and  converted,  at  a  great  cxpence,  into 
grand  apartments  for  omcers,  clerks,  depu<* 
ties  and  servants,  who  are  not  seamen. 

That  several  thousand  pounds  are  annually 
expended  in  repairs  and  alterations,  under 
the  pretext  of  nnishing  or  carrying  on  the 
building,  though  it  is  already  sufficiently 
grand,  roomy  and  convenient. 

That  the  settled  and  ample  revenues  of  the 
Hospital  being  wastea  by  this  and  other 
improper  means,  the  present  managers, 
sheltering  themselves  under  the  popular 
character  of  the  poor  defenceless  men 
under  their  care,  make  frequent  applica- 
tion to  parliament  for  the  public  money, 
which  they  squander  in  a  manner  that  has 
no  tendency  to  promote  the  welfare  of  th€ 
pensioners  or  ot  the  sea-service. 
B 


S] 


18  GEORGE  in. 


The  Cate  ofCajfidn  Thouuu  BaSlte, 


t* 


That  tlie  pensioners  are  fed  with  bull-bee/,  < 
and  sour -small  beer  mixed  with  water. 

That  the  contracting  butcher,  after  having 
been  convicted  in  a  public  court  of  justice 
(the  King*s-bench)  of  various  fraudulent 
breaches  of  his  contract,  was,  on  a  second 
prosecution,  suffered  to  compound  the  pe- 
nalties, and  renew  the  contract :  and  tnat 
many  evident  and  injurious  abuses  in  the 
supply  of  other  necessaries  are  daily  suffer- 
ed without  any  due  enquiry. 

That  under  pretence  of  raisins  a  charity  stock 
for  the  boys  in  the  Hospital,  the  pensioners 
are  deprived  of  at  least  2,500/.  per  annum 
out  of  their  frugal  allowance  of  provisions, 
&c.  settled  at  the  first  establishment,  and 
are  compelled  to  accept  of  a  part  of  the 
value  in  money;  which  causes  frequent 
drunkenness,  irregularity  and  disobedience. 

That  these  enormous  abuses  are  the  effects 
of  the  total  subversion  which  the  due  go- 
vernment of  the  Hospital  has  imdergonc, 
arising  from  the  inattention  of  the  great 
and  respeciable  characters  who  were  ap- 
pointed its  perpetual  ^^uacrdians :  and  that 
the  acting  directors,  being  in  general  con- 
cerned in  the  receipt  and  expenditure  of 
tlie  revenues,  are  therefore  improperly  en- 
trusted with  the  care  of  controuling  the 
accounts,  and  of  directing  the  affairs  of  the 
Hospital;  yet  that  these  men  have,  by 
.successive  encroachments,  extended  the 
proper  powers  of  the  board  of  directors, 
andf  taken  upon  them  a  great  part  of  the 
government  of  the  house,  in  tne  exercise 
-of  which  they  are  deaf  to  every  expostular 
tion  or  complaint,  however  reasonable  in 
itself,  or  regularly  urged. 

That  a  faction,  under  the  title  of  the  Civil  In- 
terest, is  maintained  in  the  Hospital,  which 
consists  of  such  officers,  under  officers,  de- 
puties, clerks  and  servants,  as  are  not  sea- 
laring  men,  and  who  are  therefore  illegally 
apppinted;  which  faction  has  kept  the 
Hospital  in  a  state  of  confusion  and  disorder 
for  several  years :  and  there  is  no  pretence 
of  right  or  necessity  for  their  continuing  in 
offices  to  which  seamen  alone  have  any 
flaim,  there  being  many  brave  men  fully 
qualified  to  execute  the  business  of  these 
offices,  who,  afler  having  fought  the  battles 
of  their  country,  are  now  in  a  state  of  po- 
verty and  want 

That,  independent  of  the  obvious  reflections 
suggested  by  justice  and  humanity  on  this 
occasion,  the  manner  in  which  the  pen- 
sioners are  supported  in  Greenwich  Hospi- 
tal is  a  material  subject  of  political  consi- 
deration; particularly  at  this  interesting 
period,  when  the  endeavours  to  obtain  vo- 
lunteers  for  the   navy  are  unsuccessful. 

,  Were  a  residence  in  tlie  Hospital  consi- 
dered by  seamen  in  general  as  a  desirable 
object,  it  would  have  an  evident  tendency 
to  lessen  their  reluctance  for  his  majesty^s 
service,  as  the  loss  of  temporary  advan- 
tages, or  the  dread  of  approaching  hard- 


ships, can  only  be  balanced  by  the  hope  of 
spending  a  comfortable  old.  age.  Now, 
tne  Hospital  is  so  far  fi?om  answering  this 
valuable  purpose  at  present,  that  it  is  men- 
tioned among  seamen  with  disgust  and 
dissatisfaction. 

Till  some  effectual  means  are  taken  to  re- 
move this  opinion,  the  material  object  of 
the  foundation  is  entirely  subverted,  and 
the  Hospital  become  an  useless  and  ex- 
pensive Durden  to  the  nation.  This  can 
only  be  done  by  an  entire  change  in  the 
management,  and  by  ^thfully  and  honest- 
Iv  expending  the  ample  revenues  in  the 
due  maintenance  of  s«amen  onlv.  The 
news  of  such  a  general  reform  in  the  affiurs 
of  Greenwich  Hospital  would'  be  received 
in  the  navy  with  joy  and  gratitude. 

The  lieutenant  governor  thinks  it  necessary 
to  represent,  Oiat  in  this  application  to  the 
several  members  of  the  court  of  commis- 
sioners and  governors,  he  "has  no  interests 
for  which  he  can  hope  or  fear  on  his  own 
account :  he  was  placed  in  the  Hospital  b  j 
lord  Anson,  after  a  life  of  active  service, 
with  a  view,  as  he  presumes,  that  he  might 
pass  his  remaining  days  in  peace  and  re- 
tirement ;  but  the  sixteen  years  which  he 
has  spent  in  the  Hospital  have  been  the 
most  painful,  harassing,  and  disa^eeable 
of  his  whole  life,  as  he  has,  during  the 
greatest  part  of  this  term,  been  inevitably 
engaged  in  disputes  and  litigation  with 
joboers,  agents  and  contractors,  and  in  op-, 
posing  the  civil  interest  of  this  naval  Hos- 
pital, with  whom  he  never  had  any  other 
point  to  carry,  than  that  the  pensioners 
should  be  peaceably  and  comfortably  main- 
tained, agreeably  to  the  intention  of  the 
founders,  and  to  the  establishment  of  the 
Hospital. 

That  the  contest,  so  far  as  he  is  concerned  in 
it,  must,'  in  the  course  of  nature,  be  now 
nearly  finished ;  but  it  appears  to  him  an 
indispensable  duty,  to  state  the  leading 
circumstances  of  the  atrocious  facts  which 
have  been  committed  during  his  residence 
in  the  Hospital,  to  those  who  are  in  pos* 
session  of  tlie  legal  powers  necessary  for 
the  speedy  removal  of  the  several  causes 
of  complamt  herein  recited, — in  order  that 
the  ineffectual  struggle  which  lie  has  hi- 
therto maintained  may  not  be  urged  as  an 
example  to  deter  his  successors  from  the 
performance  of  their  duty.  The  threat  of 
this  appeal,  though  on  many  occasions  it 
had  produced  salutarv  effects,  has  however 
lately  been  disiegarded,  from  an  opinion 
that  It  would  never  be  made.  It  thereforo 
became  necessary  that  it  should  be  actual- 
ly made ;  and,  though  some  parts  of  the 
prefixed  Case  may  seem  rather  tedious  in 
the  recital,  yet  the  whole  is  confined  to 
real  instances  of  fraud,  collusion,  and  inca- 
pacity, all  of  which  can  be  proved  by  the 
.  clearest  and  most  indisputable  evidence. 

The  lieutenant  governor  takes  the  liberty  to 


5]  respecting  the  Royal  Hosfital  at  Greenwich.  A.  D.  1778. 


[6 


viTgef  ID  the  most  earnest  nuurner,   his 
aniious  hope,  that  these  complaints  may 
excite  a  necessary  degree  of  attention  in 
the  several  great  and  noble  personages  to 
whom  they  are  now  addressed ;  that  a  full 
court  of  commbsioners  and  governors  may 
be  held,  by  whom  these  several  charges 
mav  be  heard  and  examined,  the  present 
evils  redressed,  and  effectual  means  de- 
vised for  restoring  the  Hospital  to  the  navy, 
and  for  the  proper  maintenance  of  seamen 
therein.    When  have  the  interests  of  Bri- 
tain been  deserted,  or  her  defence  neglect^ 
ed,  by  her  navy  ? — It  cannot  be  supposed, 
that  a  complamt  of  this  magnituue,  and 
importsince  to  seamen  worn  out  and  dis- 
abled in  the  service,  can  in  this  country  be 
urged  in  vain. 

Amonsst  the  leadine  measures  to  be  adopted 
for  we  re-establishment  of  the  Hospital,  it 
will  be  necessary, 

Hxat  the  sixpenny  receiver  from  seamen's 
wages^  the  accomptant  and  comptroller  of 
the  sixpenny-office,  the  several  prize- 
agents,  surveyor,  and  chaplain,  be  removed 
from  the  direction ;  and  a  rule  made,  that 
their  successors  be  never  in  future  appoint- 
ed directors  of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

that  persons  of  respectable  and  mdependent 
characters  be  appointed  in  their  room, 
under  such  regulations  as  may  be  judged 
sufficient  to  induce  and  oblige  them  to  atr 
tend  the  important  objects  of  their  duty ; 
and  they  be  made  responsible  for  the  due 
execution  of  the  trust.  With  respect  to 
the  present  direction,  the  old  proverb,  that 
eveiy  body's  business  is  nobody's^  seems 
to  be  truly  verified. 

That  instead  of  the  great  number  of  gover- 
nors, and  the  twenty-four  directors,  if  five 
commissioners  were  appointed,  at  500/.  per 
annum  each,  for  the  sole  care  of  receiving, 
and  ^thfully  and  frugally  expending,  the 
ample  revenues  of  the  Hospital,  the  poor 
men  might  be  nobly  provided  with  every 
necessai^  article  of  life,  and  more  tlian  the 
salary  of  such  commissioners  saved  out  of 
unnecessary  works,  repairs  and  alterations, 
in  which  case  the  Hospital  would  probably 
in  a  few  years  be  restored  to  its  proper  de- 
gree of  estimation  and  use. 

That  if  the  present  unwieldy  body  of  gover- 
nors, commissioners  and  directors,  should 
not  be  reduced  to  five  commissioners,  two 
of  the  captains  be  restored  to  the  direction, 
of  which  their  predecessors  were  deprived 
for  being  strenuous  in  the  noble  cause  of 
protecting  the  seamen  under  their  care. 

Ttuit  the  internal  government  of  the  whole 
house  be  restored  to  tlie  governor  and 
council :  that  this  council  do  consist  of  the 
deputy  governor,  the  four  captains,  and 
onJv  four,  instead  of  the  eight  lieutenants : 
aod  that  the  secretary,  steward,  and  chap- 
lains, be  removed  therefrom,  to  prevent 
the  forming  of  parties  to  embarrass  and 
put-vote  the  principal  officers  pf  the  house, 


whenever  thev  think  proper  to  appear  in 
council,  thereby  disturbing  the  peace  and 
good  government  of  the  Hospital,  for  which 
the  superior,  and  not  the  inferior  officers, 
are  responsible. 
That    the    two    chaplains,   the    secretary^ 
steward,  and  auditor,  with  several  under- 
officers,  deputies  and  servants,  who  have 
not  been  sea-faring  men,  and  whose  ap- 
pointments are  therefore  illegal,   be  dis- 
charged the  Hospital ;  and  that  navy  chap- 
lains, and  other  warrant  officers,  &c.  be 
appointed  in  their  room. 
That  two  of  the  three  matrons,  not  beinz  the 
widows  of  sea-officers,  be  removed  from 
the  Hospital,  and  proper  objects  appointed 
ii^  their  stead,  as  tnere  are  now  the  widows 
of  twenty-four  officers  of  different  ranks* 
serving  in  the  mean  capacity  of  common 
nurses  under  these  matrons. 
That  Greenwich  Hospital  be,  for  the  future, 
preserved,  inviolably  and  exclusively,  for 
the  navy^  as  an  asylum'  for  disabled  sea- 
men, their  widows  and  children ;  and  that, 
for  their  better  securitv,  the  charter  (in 
which  several  essential  words,  and  even 
clauses  of  the  old  commissions  are  omitted) 
be  surrendered  to  his  majesty,  and  an  hum- 
ble petition  presented  for  a  new  one,  mort 
consonant  to  the  old  commissions. 
That  the  apartpients  of  the  several  officers 
who  have  no  concern  with  the  internal  bu- 
siness or  government  of  the  house  be  re- 
stored to  the  Hospital,  they  having  no  bu- 
siness but  with  the  court  of  directors,  of 
which  the  principal  meetings  are  held  in 
London. 
That  the  Roval  Sovereign  ward,  in  kino;  WiU 
Ham's  building,  now  possessed  by  the  se-< 
cretary's  clerk,  be  restored   to  the  pea- 
sioners. 
That  the  office  of  clerk  of  the  works,  being 
an  useless  office,  be  abolished,  as  there  can 
be  no  plea  of  necessity  for  such  an  officer, 
whilst  there  is  a  surveyor,  and  no  new 
buildings  carried  on :  that  the  present  clerk 
of  the  works  be  obliged  to  surrender  to  the 
wards  the  suite  of  apartments  be  possesses, 
and  to  restore  the  posts  and  rails,  which 
out  of  mere  caprice  were  lately  destroyed, 
though  erected,  at  a  considerable  expence, 
round  all  the  outer  walls  of  the  Hospital^ 
for  the  safety,  ease,  and  comfort,  of^  the 
blind,  lame,  and  infirm  pensioners,  who  are 
now  frequently  hemmed  in  between  two 
walls,  to  their  great  terror,  and  at  the  risk 
of  their  lives  from  droves  of  horned  cattle^ 
horses,  &c.    These  walks,  which  were  for- 
merly called  the  Blind  Men's  Walks,  are 
now  become  common  nuisances  %o  people 
of  all  ranks  who  visit  the.  Hospital.* 
That  the  apartments  of  the  lieutenants  Gor^ 
don  and  Kerr,  of  the  clerk  of  the  cheque^ 

*  These  posts  aod  vnils  extended  netrly  one  mile, 
and  were  erected  on  accoont  of  a  poor  pensioiier  being 
kijk4  oA  the  jipot  by  a  oar^^Orig.  Ed. 


n 


18  GEOtlGfE  IIL  The  Case  of  Captain  Tkonuu  SaHHef 


c* 


and  of  two  of  the  matronB,  be  restored  to 
ihe  wards ;  and  that  lodgings  be 'found  for 
ihem  in  the  apartments  of  the  non-qualified 
officers,  or  in  the  new  building  now  occu- 
pied by  the  governor's  clerk,  steward's 
clerky  and  a  person  called  the  clerk  of  the 
works' clerk. 
That  the  clerk  of  the  cheque's  clerk's  apart- 

nient  be  restored  to  the  wards. 
That  all  the  public  passages,  windows,  doors, 
and  stair-cases,  which  nave  been  monopo- 
lized, be  thrown  open  for  the  convenience 
of  the  officers  and  strangers  who  visit  the 
wards,  and  for  the  admission  of  fresh  sdr, 
which  is  so  necessary  to  the  health  of  the 
numerous   inhabitants.      The  stair-cases 
now  in  use  are  narrow  and  dangerous,  and, 
in  case  of  fire,  would  be  insufficient  for  the 
retreat  of  a  crowd  of  people,  as  some  of  the 
principal  wards  are1>arricadoed  up  at  both 
ends  tor  the  ifiagnificent  accommodation 
cf  individuals,  who   have  converted  the 
grand  passages  into  galleries  for  pictures, 
and  the  roof  into  lodging-rooms    with 
chimnies,  where  none  were  originally  de- 
signed. 
That  the  butler's  list  and  chalk-off  list,  which 
are  so  hostile  to  the  establishment,  be  to- 
tally abolished  ;  and  that  the  tables  in  the 
dimne-halls  be  filled  with  pensioners,  and 
served  with  their  full  allowance  of  provi- 
sions ;  it  being  intended,  according  to  the 
rules  of  the  house,  that  they  should  dine 
in  public,  as  a  spectacle  for  the  encourage- 
ment of  seamen.     The  soup-maiere  now 
served  to  the  men 'dishonours  the  nospital, 
and  was  publicly  ridiculed  in  the  dining- 
hall  by  his  excellency  the  Due  de  Niver- 
nois. 
That  such  of  the  pensioners  and  nurses,  as 
from  age,  hnfirmities,  or  other  reasonable 
causes,  shall  be  put  on  the  money-list  by 
the  governor  and  council,  and  not  by  the 
directors,  may  receive  the   flill  value  of 
their  provisions ;  and  that  the  late  order 
procured  by  the  secretary  from  the  general 
court,  to  empower  the  directors  to  dispense 
with  the  mustering  the  pensioners  on  cer- 
tain occasions,  be  rescinded,  as  being  re- 
pugnant to  the  charter,  and   infringing 
upon  the  government  of  the  house,  and  the 
custom  ofthe  Hospital. 
That  the  charity  stock  be  thrown  into  the 
general  iund  of  the   Hospital,  and  such 
boj^s  as  inay  be  judged  proper  objects  of 
this  charity  be  better  fed  than  at  present, 
tid  a  growing  boy  requires  at  least  as  much 
sustenance  as  an  old  man. 
That  the  pensioners  and  nurses  on  the  mo- 
tiey-list  shall  not  be  deprived  of  their  fes- 
tival dinners ;  which  is  an  extra-gift  to  all 
without  distinction,  in  commemoration  of 
the  five  great  anniversaries. 
The  royal  founder^s  coronation,-^king's  birth- 
day,—queen's   birth-day, — accession,  and 
<  the  coronation. 
The  noa-eiyoyment  6f  these  dap  of  mirth 


and  festivity  is  a  r^  gri^ante  to  three  or 
four  hundred  poo^  people. 
That  two  lieutenants  ne  present  at  the  dining- 
halls,  at  dinner ;  and  that  the  chaplain  of 
the  month  say  grace,  instead  of  an  old  pfcn- 

sionet. 
That  the  captam  or  lieutenant  of  the  wcelt  do 
always  see  ^e  meat  delivered  send  weighed, 
agreeably  to  a  former  minute  of  the  cotin* 
cil,  in  order  to  increase  the  present  checksy 
which  have  been  found  insufficient.  Thia 
laudable  regulation  has  been  Ijrtely  over- 
ruled. 
That  the  steward's  clctk  be  never  in  fixture 
allowed  to  .perform  the  duty  of  the  clerk 
ofthe  council. 
That  the  secretary  make  all  the  contracts,  as 
formerly,  agreeable  to  established  forms,  in 
order  to  avoid  the  great  expence  of  attor- 
ney's bills ;  and  that  he  be  not  permitted 
to  make  a  bill  for  travelFing  charges,  being 
allowed  20/.  a  year  for  that  purpose. 
That  the  stewards  of  the  Derwentwater  es- 
tate, and  the  receiver  of  the  sixpences,  be 
obliged  to  remit  to  the  treasurer  and  re- 
ceiver-general all  such  rtoney  as  thfey  may 
receive  on  account  of  the  Hospital,  as  soon 
as  it  shall  amount  to  the  sum  of  50or  in 
order  that  there  may  be  but  one  treasurer: 
and  that  the  board  of  directors  be  not  al- 
lowed to  extend  their  prooer  powers  by 
impresting,  or  advancing  large  sums  of 
money  to  contractors  or  tradesmen,  as  the 
warrants  for  the  payment  of  all  monies 
ought  to  be  signed  quarterly  at  the  gencjral 
,  court. 

That  all  admeasurements  of  the  works  ofthe 
Hospital  be  made  with  the  assistance  of  a 
sworn  surveyor ;  and  that  all  the  works, 
alterations,  and  repairs,  be  sworn  to  before 
the  barons  of  the  Excheauer,  by  the  sur- 
veyor of  the  Hospital,  the  clerk  of  the 
.    check,  and  the  clerk  of  the  works,  as  hav- 
ing been  faithfuUv  and  truly  performed, 
according  to  the  best  of  their  skill  and 
judgment ;  in  conformity  to  a  minute  of 
the  board  of  directors  in  the  year  17 18,  and 
to  the  custom  of  those  times  when  the  af^ 
fairs^of  the  Hospital  were  conducted  with 
integrity. 
That  tne  steward  be  sworn  to  all  his  accounts 
and  disbursements,  being  near  30,000/.  pet 
annum. 
That  the  receiver  of  the  sixpenny  office  (as 
well  as  his  clerk)  be  sworn  to  his  accoimts 
and  disbursements. 
That  the  brewer  be  sworn  to  the  faithful  and 
frus:al  expenditure  of  the  malt  and  hops  ^ 
and  that,  if  any  beer  be  condemned  on  a 
regular  survey,  the  value  of  good  beer  be 
deducted  out  of  his  wages. 
That  the  houshold  and  other  accounts  of  tha 
Hospital  be  examined  at  the  table  where 
the  board  of  directors  sit,  and  not  partially 
and  superficially  passed  by  two  interested 
members,  at  a  separate  table;   and  that 
five  of  the  directors,  afler  proper  exatnitiar 


9}         retpeOing  the  Rojfti  Hospkal  ai  Greirmch* 

tkxi,  do  attest  the  »aid  aceoonts  with  their 
names  ^\  length,  instead  of  the  initial  let- 
ters  of  two  names  only. 
Thai  ail  the  accounts  and  disbursements  of 
the  Hospital  be  sworn  to,  before  the  ba- 
rons of  the  Exchequer ;  which  is  now  per- 
formed partially. 

That  the  auditor  be  obliged  to  audit  aM  the 
accounts  of  the  Hospital. 

That  the  pay  of  the  lieutenants  be  made 
etjiial  to  the  pay  of  the  two  chaplains,  as 
onginaliy  intended. 

That  the  general  courts  be  held  four  times  at 
least  in  the  year,  agreeably  to  the  first 
commissions,  the  busmess  of  this  court  be- 
ing much  increased:  that  due  notice  of 
the  several  meetings  be  given  in  the  Ga- 
zette, and  the  business  made  as  public  as 
possible,  instead  of  beine  privately  passed. 
It  behig  a  matter  of  pubhc  concern. 

That  these  courts  be  held  in  the  Painted-hall 
in  the  Hospital,  in  order  to  add  to  the 
splendour  of  the  meetings,  by  accommo^ 
datiDg  a  sufficient  immber  of  great  per- 
sonages, for  the  more  effectual  protection 
of  seamen,  their  widows  and  children. 

All  Which  premises  are  most  humbly  sub- 
mitted to  the  wisdoih  and  humanity  of  the 
ri^t  honourable  the  lords  and  other  com- 
missioners and  governors  of  the  royal  Hos- 
pital for  seamen  at  Greenwich  (who  are 
the  guardians  and  guarantees  of  the  rights 
of  seamen  in  the  said  royal  Hospital,  and 
who  alone  are  able  to  give  the  poor  pen- 
doiicrs  speedy  and  effectual  reliet)  by  tneir 
most  respectnil  and  faithful  servant, 

Thomas  BxrLLit. 


On  March  7th,  177S,  captain  fisullie  laid  be- 
fore the  earl  of  Sandwich,  at  that  time  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty,  a  copy  of  the  said 
book,  together  with  the  following  Letter : 

To  the  Rieht  Honourable  the  Earl  of  Sand- 
:h,  a/duressed  on  his  Majesty's  Service. 


As  your  lordship  has  hitherto  been  disposed 
to  hear  only  one  side  of  the  affairs  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  I  take  the  liberty  to 
enclose  for  your  lordship's  consideration,  a 
State  of  Facts,  which  I  trust  will  stimulate 
your  lordship  to  redress  the  grievances 
therein  complained  of,  and  thereby  restore 
me  to  my  proper  command  in  the  f  iospita), 
of  which  I  have  been  deprived  by  a  combi- 
nation of  landmen,  who,  if  they  had  any 
right  to  a  footing  in  the  Hospital,  can  have 
no  pretence  to  pervert  and  depose  the  law- 
ful government  thereof. 

I  have  the  honour  to  acquaint  yoiu-  lordship, 
that  I  will  not  sit  down  contented  to  see 
the  men  cheated  and  myself  insulted  by 
priests,  clerks  or  contractors.  I  think  it, 
however,  my  duty  to  forewarn  your  lord- 
ship, that  if  you  are  any  longer  deaf  to  rea- 
sonable complaints,  I  shall  put  this  effort 
for  redress  into  execution,  which  I  should 
have  deferred  for  a  more  seasonable  oppor- 


A.D.  mft  [1« 

tunity^  but  the  recent  oTerbaariifi  cMduct 
of  the  fiiction,  so  frequently  alladefd  «cy  in 
the  enclosed  Case,  has  eompelM  me  to^ 
stninle  for  immediate  redress. 
Iwoula  not  have  your  lordship  inkderstaiicl 
that  I  mean  to  disturb  government  at  thi^ 
critical  time,  by  applying  to  Barliament.  I 
scorn  the  imputation  of  making  any  ether 
appeal  than  to  the  body  of  the  commis- 
sioners and  governors  of  the  Hospital, 
whose  boundeii  duty  it  is  to  hear  and  re- 
dress the  grievances  complained  of ;  and 
1  most  sincerely  lament  that  an  establish- 
ment so  tnily  popular  and  great,  should  be 
so  far  perverted  as  to  force  me  to  make 
any  appeal.  I  am,  my  lord,  your  lordship'^ 
most  obedient  and  most  humble  servant, 
Royal  Hmitaif  Oretn-  Tho.  Baillie. 
wich,  March  7, 1778. 

To  this  Letter  captain  Baillie  received  no  ai»- 
swer,  but  oq  March  ]6th,  it  appearing  that 
Mr.  Cooke,  lord  Sandwich's  chapl&in,  had 
seen  the  printed  Case  several  days  before, 
and  had  mentioned  it  in  many  companies^ 
captain  Bailiie  then  carried  copies  of  the 
Case  and  Memorial  to  several  of  the  go* 
vernors  and  commissioners,  particularly  te 
the  first  lord  of  the  treasury  (lord  North,) 
the  lord  president  of  the  council  (earl 
Gower,  afterwards  marquess  of  Suftird,) 
the  three  secretaries  of  state,  and  four  ad« 
inirals.] 

In  the  KiNoVBiifrcH. 
Monday,  November  23,  1778. 


The  KiMo  against  Thomas  Baillie,  Esk]uire, 
Lieutenant  Governor  of  the  Royal  Hos- 
pital at  Gitenwich. 

XHIS  cause  came  before  the  Court  upoD 
the  following  rule  being  granted  on  July  7, 
1778,  viz. 

"Tuesday  next,  after  three  weeks  from 
the  day  of  the  Holy  Trinity,  in  th  18th  year 
of  king  Georee  the  third. 

'*  Kertt. — Upon  reading  the  several  aflida« 
vits  of  James  Stuart,  esquire,  and  two  others, 
the  said  James  Stuart  and  another,  Robert 
Mylne  and  another,  John  Godby  and  another, 
John  Ibbetson,  esq.  and  another,  and  of  the 
reverend  John  Cooke,  clerk,  and  another,  it 
is  ordered  that  the  first  day  of  next  term  be 
given  to  Thomas  Baillie,  esq.  to  sheW  tause 
why  an  information  or  informations  should 
not  bb  exhibited  a^inst  him  for  certain  mis- 
demeanours, in  puhiishing  certaib  scandalous 
libels,  upon  notice  of.  this  rule  to  be  given  to 
him  in  the  mean  time. — On  the  motion  of 
Mr.  Solicitor  General, 

"  By  the  Court.^ 

The  joint  affidavit  of  James  Stuart^  Thomas 
Hicks,  and  the  reverend  John  Cooke,  three 
of  the  directors,  was  read,  and  also  the  affi- 
davit of  Thomas  Baillie,  esq.  defendant^  in 
answer  to  tlieirs;  the  separate  affidavit  of 
James  Stuart,  as  surveyor,  was  also  read,  and 


"3 


18  OEOKGE  lit*  The  Oue  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie^         [19 


the  affidavit  of  Robert  Mylne,  clerk  of  the 
works,  was  be jiin.  But  the  Court  asked,  If. 
all  the  complainants  went  through  what  was 
aaid  with  respect  to  themselves,  and  being 
answered.  Yes,  desired  Mr.  Bearcroft  to  pro- 
ceed in  shewing  cau5e>  and  reserve  those  affi- 
davits till  they  were  Uiought  necessary  to  be 
read. 

Mr.  Bearcrqft : 

My  lord ;  this  is  an  application  for  leave 
to  file  one  or  more  informations  against  cap- 
tain Baillie,  lieutenant  governor  of  Green- 
wich Hospital,  as  the  author  and  publisher  of 
a  printed  libel,  upon  the  gentlemen  who  are 
named  in  the  rule ;  three  of  them  as  direc- 
tors of  the  Hospital,  and  upon  Mr.  Stuart,  in  I  ¥rich  Hospital. 


will  be  necessaiv,  in  the  first  place,  fi>r  the 
Court  to  know  the  constitution  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  so  far  as  it  stands  at  present. 

The  corporation  consists  m  ^neral  of 
some  of  the  first  characters  in  pomt  of  rank 
and  ability,  in  the  nation,  who  are  all  gover- 
nors and  commissioners,  who  have  a  power, 
if  they  please  to  exercise  it,  of  controulin^ 
and  directing  every  thing,  in  respect  to  the 
management  of  the  Hospital :  but  as  it  can- 
not  be  supposed,  all  the  persons  there  named, 
who  are  in  high  situations,  and  employed  in 
matters  of  great  importance  to  the  state,  can 
attend  to  the  business  of  the  Hospital,  in 
fact,  it  has  happened,  that  but  few  of  the  go- 
vernors have  attended  to  the  afiairs  of  Green- 


the  separate  character  of  surveyor  of  the 
Hospital.  Mr.  Mylne  as  clerk  of  the  works, 
Hr.  Goaby  as  steward  of  the  Hospital,  and 
Mr.  Ibbetson  as  secretary  to  the  directors, 
together  vnth  the  reverend  Mr.  John  Cooke 
as  chaplain  of  the  Hospital. 

My  lord,  this  rule  is  for  leave  to  file  one  or 
more  informations,  and,  I  observed,  one  of 
your  lordships  asked  just  now,  why  it  was, 
that  separate  affidavits  were  made  by  the 
flame  )>ersons  of  matter  contained  in  the  same 
book  ?  I  beg  leave  to  answer,  that  it  was  for 
the  p>urpose  of  adding  to  the  oppression  and 
vexation,  which  the  prosecutors  meditated 
against  captain  Baillie,  because  those  pur- 
poses would  be  better  answered  by  six  infor- 
mations than  one ;  but  Mr.  SoUcitor  General, 
with  more  mercy,  though  perhaps  not  a  great 
'  deal  more  judgment,  than  nis  clients,  thought 
they  had  a  better  chance  to  succeed  in  one 
than  in  six  informations.  I  remember  upon 
his  instance,  it  was,  that  the  motion  for  the 
six  informations  was  consolidated  into  one 
rale. 

My  lord,  I  have  no  difficulty 'to  say,  I 
thought  the  judgment  of  the  prosecutors  very 
extraordinary,  in  making  this  motion ;  for  by 
taking  this  step,  it  is  likely  to  call  down  the 
attention  of  the  public  to  the  transactions  in 
Greenwich  Hospital  for  many  years  last  past : 
however,  upon  the  present  occasion,  I  find  it 
mv  duty  to  contena  before  vour  lordship,  this 
nue  ought  to  be  discharged,  and  discharged 
with  costs,  otherwise  the  Court  will  not  do 
justice  to  captain  Baillie,  neither  will  they  do 
that  iustice  upon  the  prosecutors  of  this  rule, 
which  they  deserve,  for  daring  to  make  this 
kind  of  application.  My  lord,  trom  the  prin- 
ciples ofjustice,  I  apprehend,  and  have  no 
doubt,  the  Court  will  soon  believe  this  printed 
book,  which  is  now  attempted  to  be  prose- 
cuted as  a  libel,  is  so  far  firom  deserving  Uiat 
name,  that  it  tells  a  tale  to  the  public,  which 
it  is  fit  the  public  should  be  acquainted  with ; 
that  it  is  a  merit  in  the  party  ttiat  has  stated 
it;  that  he  has  proceeded  in  all  the  circum- 
stances that  have  been  printed  in  this  book, 
that  does  him  great  credit  and  honour. 

Mv  lord,  in  order  for  the  Court  to  under- 
slana  the  matter  now  before  them  at  all,  it 


They  have  power  to  hold  general  courts, 
and  general  meetines  of  governors  and  com- 
missioners, in  which  they  give  absolute  direc- 
tions, touching  any  thing  they  think  proper, 
fiut  the  immediate  business  of  the  Hospital 
has  been  constantly  done  by  a  body  of  per- 
sons, constituted  by  the  charter,  and  called 
the  directors,  and  by  other  persons,  witliin 
the  Hospital,  called  the  eovemor  and  coun- 
cil ;  the  departments  of  Uiese  two  separate 
descriptions  of  men,  the  directors,  and  the 
governor  and  council,  are  very  different  *.  it 
IS  the  business  of  the  directors  to  superintend 
and  direct  every  thing  that  relates  to  the  re- 
venue, accounts,  contracts,  and  building,  and 
every  thing,  in  short,  that  relates  to  money 
matters,  for  the  real  internal  and  external 
interest,  if  I  may  so  call  it,  of  the  Hospital. 

It  is  the  business  of  the  governor  and  coun- 
cil, who  are  or  ought  to  be  naval  officers,  to 
protect  the  numerous  objects  of  the  establish- 
ment, to  direct  and  controul  the  internal  go- 
vernment of  the  Hospital,  and  see  there  is 
good  behaviour  and  proper  subordination  ob- 
served therein,  and  tnat  every  thing  is  con- 
ducted agreeable  to  the  rules  of  the  Hospital ; 
these  are  the  two  separate  departments  of  the' 
directors,  upon  the  one  hand,  and  the  gover- 
nor and  council,  upon  the  other  hand. 

My  client,  captain  Baillie,  in  1761,  came 
into  the  Hospital,  bein^  disabled  in  the  ser- 
vice of  his  country,  and  was  a  captain  upon 
the  establishment,  as  it  is  called— about  five 
years  ago,  he  succeeded  to  the  second  office, 
that  of  lieutenant  eovemor ;  I  beg  pardon 
for  saying  succeeded,  I  mean  to  take  away, 
according  to  the  information  I  have  had,  the 
slander  which  has  been  industriously  spread 
against  captain  Baillie,  as  if  by  his  proceed* 
ings,  in  the  course  he  had  taken  in  the  suIk 
ject  before  the  Court,  he  had  been  suspended 
for  ingratitude,  or  what  is  called  flying  in  the 
face  of  his  patrons  and  benefactors :  it  was 
certainly  not  so— his  character  has  been  en- 
quired into,imd  he  is  found  a  person  as  inca- 
pable as  any  man  living,  of  being  guilty  of 
any  baseness. 

My  lord,  I  ssud  he  succeeded,  I  do  not 
mean  that  it  was  an  absolute  right,  but  it  it 
so  much  of  course,  that  the  next  senior  cap^ 


13]         rapedittg  ike  Royal  Hospital  al  Oreeimkh.         A.  D.  1778v 


tM 


taiD,  when  there  becomes  a  vacancy,  should 
succeed  to  the  office  of  lieutenant  governor, 
provided  there  is  no  objection  to  his  charac- 
ter; and  from  the  good  behaviour  of  captain 
Baillie,  it  seems  there  never  was  the  least 
objection  to  his  character  or  conduct. 

Mjr  lord,  I  will  first  make  a  few  observar 
tioDs  as  to  the  matter  whereon  these  affidavits 
turn,  upon  which  the  application  is  made  to 
the  Court.  Still,  I  fsurly  confess  to  your  lord- 
ships, in  this  observation,  and  in  almost 
every  one  I  shall  trouble  your  lordship  and 
the  Court  with,  my  chief  object  is  to  obtain 
costs  for  my  client :  that  this  rule  will  be. 
discharged,  I  have  not  the  least  doubt ;  for  if 
the  gentlemen  were  likelv  to  succeed  to  make 
h  absolute,  I  do  not  believe  any  mortal 
breathing  would  ever  advise  them  to  go  for 
damages,  but  the  circumstances  are  very  ma- 
terial m  respect  to  costs. 

Now  they  have  picked  out  of  this  printed 
Case  between  fifty  and  sixty  difierept  para- 
mphs ;  I  will  not  call  them  paragraphs,  as 
ibere  is  hardly  a  whole  one,  they  are  pieces 
of  paragraphs,  bits  of  sentences,  half  lines, 
ana  iiMie]>endent  expressions ;  perhaps,  I  am 
incorrect  in  calling  them  so,  because  ail  these 
I  have  spoken  of,  are  general  conclusions 
fiom  particular  facts  and  circumstances,  that 
ve  precisely,  clearly,  and  pointedly  stated  in 
this  book. 

Your  lordship  will  now  see  why  they  chose 
to  pick  out  the  parti<nilar  charges  that  are  in 
Ibe  book;  tfaoush^I  always  understood  the 
particular  story  of  a  man  was  a  much  greater 
ubel  than  a  general  reflection,  but  they  chose 
to  point  out  a  general  conclusion  of  those 
&cte,  to  give  them  an  opportunity  of  doing 
^1  they  have  done ;  but  they  conclude,  after 
tbree  or  four  sentences  are  picked  out — 
** These  deponents  say"  (as  if  every  thinjg 
else  was  true)  *'  so  far  as  they  tend  to  crimi- 
nate us  A.  B.  and  C.  they  are  all  fiilse.'' 
Iben  the  reason  is  obvious,  why  they  did  not 
pick  out  the  particular  charees ;  it  is,  because 
th^  thought  thev  might  shelter  themselves 
ttooer  the  general  expression,  **  So  far  as  they 
tend  to  criminate  us,  they  are  all  false;''  and, 
I  know,  thc^'  could  not  state,  in  this  applica- 
tion to  the  Court,  the  particular  charges,  and 
do  what  was  incumbent  upon  them  to  do— 
to  swear  they  are  false— for  they  know  them 
to  be  true. 

Those  are  the  observations  upon  the  affi- 
da^  that  have  been  read,  and  I  call  upon 
Day  learned  friends  to  know,  whether,  in  all 
they  have  read,  this  is  not  the  course  cx)n- 
stantly  taken,  and  I  submit  no  other  reason 
oa  be  given  for  it.  My  lord,  it  is  extremely 
duficolt  to  attempt  it,  if*^!  was  correct  enough 
^  n^  mstructions  to  do  it,  to  attend  to  all 
the  [wticular  charges,  and  answer  them  se- 
^tely ;  it  would  take  up  an  infinite  d^  of 
^e.  It  is  sufilcient,  that  two  of  then:  affi- 
daviu  have  been  read;  but  I  will  stote  to 
pur  lordship  the  nature  of  certain  charges, 
*^  \k  »l)^w«^  to  those  charges;  in  which 


the  Court  will  see  sufficient  to  lead  their  at**, 
tention  to  the  other  affidavits,  when  they 
come  to  be  read,  and  what  are  the  charges  t« 
which  the  answers  are  applied. 

Captain  BaiUie  first  of  all  says  in  his  affi/b 
davit,  and  I  trust  nobody  will  think  it  im- 
proper to  state  to  your  lordship,  as  he  lias  a 
proper  authority  tor  so  doing,  that  he  has 
served  his  king  and  coimtry  for  near  forty 
years;  that  he  has  risen  to  the  rank  he  held 
when  he  was  ap{>oinced  to  the  Hospital,  which 
was  considerable,  in  consequence  of  hb  cou- 
rage and  conduct  shewn  upon  many  occa^ 
sions,  which  is  shortly  pointed  out,  not  by 
any  interest  or  influence,  but  by  e(x>d  beha- 
viour onlv^  recorded  at  the  Admiralty  ;•  thus 
he  finds  himself  in  the  situation  of  lieutenant 
governor,  who  is  in  truth  the' first  resident 
officer  of  Greenwich  Hospital.  It  is  his  busi- 
ness to  look  daily  into  the  affairs  of  the  Hos- 
pital, to.  see  what  they  are  about,  and  how 
the  seamen  are  provided  for.  In  this  'situa* 
tion  he  tells  your  lordship,  for  a  considerable 
time  past  he  observed  certain  abuses,  which 
when  they  come  to  be  .attended  to,  are  of  a 
sort  and  size  which  not  only  justifies  what 
he  has  done  upon  this  case,  but  that  his  duty 
actually  called  upon  him  to  do  it.  He  sayt 
that  very  soon  after  his  appointment  he  saw 
a  great  number  of  the  rooms  and  the  cabins^ 
which  were  appropriated  for  the  accommo- 
dation of  the  seamen,  taken  away  for  the 
purpose  of  accommodating  landmen,  as  I  see 
the  phrase  is  in  the  Hospital;  and  your  lord- 
ship may  see  these  complaints  frequently  re- 
iterated m  his  printed  Case,  of  its  being  noto- 
rious, tliat  a  ereat  number  of  landmen  have 
of  late  years  Been  introduced  into  the  several . 
places,  as  officers  and  servanto  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  who  by  the  charter  expressly  ought 
not,  and  in  the  nature  of  things,  in  point  of 
custom  and  usage,  those  offices  ought  to  luve 
been  filled  with  seafaring  men.  There  are  a. 
great  number  of  facts,  of  the  cabins  of  the 


■•-«•■ 


*  See  tke  foUowiflg  LeUer  of  Mr.  ClevelaiMl  (late 
•eorelary  to  the  Adoiiraltj)  to  captain  Baillie,  on  the 
30th  March,  1757,  whioh  happened  daring  the  adaii- 
niftration  of  tlw  late  right  hon.  eari  Tpoiple,  at  the 
Admiralty,  to  whom  captain  Baillie.waa  entirely  nn* 
known. 


u 


To  Captain  BatUie,  Tular,  Spithead. 

'*  Admiralty  Office,  March  50,  1757. 

"  Sir;  I  hare  reoeired  and  read  to  my  Lordf 
CommiMionerf  of  the  Adaiiraitj  jonr  letter  of  the 
98th  instant,  giring  an  aooonnt  of  your  haring  taken 
a  Freiioh  privateer  of  f  4  gam,  belong^g  to  Harre- 
de-OrMe;  and  I  am  eommanded  to  aoqoaint  yon, 
that  the  Nary-board  are  directed  to  porohaie  the 
veitel  without  Iom  of  time,  and  to  regiater  her  in  the 
list  of  the  navy,  by  tho  name  of  the  Turtar'a  Prise, 
and  to  establish  the  nnmber  and  nature  of  gans  iha 
now  has,  and  160  men  in  her ;  and  their  lordships 
hare  appointed  yoa  to  oommand  her,  as  a  reward  for 
yoor  behayioor. 

"  I  am,  Sir,  your  most  humble  servant, 

"  J.   CLlVaLAND.* 

"  Satered  at  tho  Adiuralty."    Orig.  EtL 


IS] 


It  GEORGE  ill.  Th€ 


«Q|jiien  being  Uken  away,  to  inUoduce  ;u)d 
accomoiQ4ate  landmen  into  offices  and  lodg- 
\f^  in  the  Hospital.  This  shews  Mr.  Secre- 
tary Ibbetson's  sep^urajte  a|)plication  might 
have  beep  with  g^reat  propriety  made  geaerd, 
it  Mis  Milder  the  general  head  of  complaint. 
I  think  eieven  of  the  cabins^  were  knocked 
down  almost  ^bout  Uie  ppor  fellows  ears,  to 
fUfkke  w  aparUnent  still  more  magnificent 
^r  Mr.  Ibhetsoo,  aad  double  that  number 
|br  his  deik.  I  cano^.express  myself  better 
upon  Jthe  subjeoty  tlum.ov^  of  the  poor  pen- 
ttoners  did  upon  the  occasioip,  as  he  was  pulled 
out  of  his  b^  ftnd  hobbling  dpwn.s^irs,  the 
old  m^ui  shook  his  head  and  said,  '<  Ah !  this 
is  very  hard  indeed !  that  so  many  fighting 
men  should  be  turned  out  of  their  beds  for 
oqe  .writing  man  f  ^  I  have  alrc^y  stated  to 
tte  Court,  a  vast  number  of  offices,  which 
were  lucrative,  s^nd  in  the  hands  of  seamen 
foitaerly,  jbftve  now  got  into  the  hands  of 

landmctn. 

In  ^ing  my  duty  by  my  client,  I  cfmnot 
help  fqllowing  his  instrucUons.    It  seems  he 
iias  found  out  that  by  a  most  wonderful  ope- 
.cation  of  fortuitous  events,  a  particul^  jsort 
of 'men  which  you  find  in  all  these  plaoei$,  are 
{freeholders  or  burgesses  of  Huntingdon.    So 
fer  it  is  necessary  to  take  jUptice ;  for  if  pot, 
the  whole  of  the  complaint,  at  least  most  of 
*it.is  attributed  to  such  kind  of  proceeding, 
whi^h  a^ccounts  for  most  of  the  subjects  I 
have>8poken  of. 
C(i¥Tt.    What  says  the  charter  about  it  ? 
Mr.  Murphy,    It  ej^cludes.personi^  that  are 
freeholders  or  burgesses  of  all  counties,  as 
well  as  Huntingdon,  if  not  seafadog  men ; 
the   words  are,   '*  No  officer  shall  be  em- 
ployed in  the  Hospital  but  seafaring  men, 
pr.  such  who  have  lost  their  limbs,  or  been 
.otherwise  disabled  in  the  sea^service.'' 

,Qourt,    I.  doubt  .whether  they  will  find  a 
ifciting  man  taken  .notice  of  th^re'asex- 
.eludea? 

Mr.  B^twtr^,    Gapt.  BailUe  says-he  was 
t«Kceftdingly,uawiDing  to  take  the  course  he 
did.    Heaaya  upon  his  taking  notice  of  the  se- 
vendabuses  committed,  hethelieut^edvemor 
and  the  council  did  frequently  apply  to  the 
directors  in  9rder  to  remedy  such  abuses,  but 
-their  applications  were  in  vain,  and  cold 
water  was  thrown  on  them.    He  states  to 
vour^lordshipLthat  he  applied  several  times 
m  writing  to.the  First  li)rd  of  the  Admiraltv 
without  e^^^Qt;  and  up^n  an  iptcrvicw  with 
his  lordship  at  the  Admiralty,  he  was  told  he 
would  iv>t  let  business  go  on;  but  not  con- 
tent with  living  his  application  thus  re- 
jected by  the  ^First  Lord  of  the  Admiralty, 
captain  BaiUie  swears  he  left  his  printed  Case 
and  Memorial  sealed  up  with  a  letter  for  lord 
Baindwich,  requesting  that  his  lordship  would 
look  into  the  afiairs  of  the.  Hospital;  that  on 
the  ninth  or  tenth  day  h^  saw  his  lordship, 
who  abruptly  told  him»  in  the  presence  of 
Mr.  Stephens,  the  secretary,  that  he  had  no 
compjmds./or  hiqa.   ,Ailter  such  recq>tion^ 


C(Uc  of  Captain  Thomas  BailU^f  {IjS 

and  not  before,  captain  B^Uie  seeing,  and  to 
his  honour  feeling,  as  it  became  him  to, do, 
the  injuiies  that  were  daily  arising  to  the  ob- 
jects of  his  care,  thought  there  was  no  pos- 
sible chance  of  redress,  \^uX  by  applying  to 
the  body  of  the  commissioners  and  governora 
at  lacge,  to  whom  he  did  apply  on  the  tenth 
da^.     And  he  swears  positively,  that  his 
prmtedCase,  which  these  gentlemen  that 
prosecute  the  rule  find  to  be  a  Ubel  upon 
them,  was  printed  solely  for  the  purpose  of 
laying  before  each  separate  governor  add 
commissioner  of  the  Hospital,  the  nature,  of 
his  complaints,  in  order  to  beget  an  attention 
m  them,  and  to  procure,  if  possible,  by  that 
means  an  efficient  general  court,  that  might 
inquire  into  and  reform  the  abuses.    This  he 
positively  swears  was  his  sole  object  in  com^^ 
piling,  in  printing,  and  delivenne  the  several 
copies  of  those  he  has  dehvered ;  which  he 
sweass  he  delivered  only  to  such  governors,  to 
his  own  counsel,  and  one  or  two  to  his  own 
friends,  for  their  advice  and  assistance  when 
he  was  threatened  to  be  attached  at  law.  And 
I  trust,  your  lordship  will  find  that  every  se- 
parate charge  of  the  facts  therein  mentioned 
are  true,  which. alone  is  an  answer  to  svn  ap- 
pUcation  for  an  information ;  but  there  is  not 
a  colour  to  consider  it  as  a  Ubel,  because  it  is 
a  representation  of  complaints  fit  to  be  made 
to  those  whose  duty  it  is,  and  who  have  au-^ 
thority  to  hear  and  redress  them;  therefore  it 
is  impossible  to  consider  this  as  a  libel. 

In  the  first  place,  my  lord,  I  take  it  to  be 
the  established  practice  of  this  Court  in  all 
cases,  upon  a  motion  for  an  information  for  a 
libel,  to  grant  a  rule  of  the  i|[iformation  be 
true,  Uiough  in  point  pf  law  it  is  neverthe- 
less a  libel  for  bemg  true;  ^ret  the  Court  will 
not  permit  them  to  go  on  in  this  extraordi^ 
nary  vniy  for  an  information,  especially  if 
your  lonuhips  find  this  printed  Case  was  not 
printed  for  the  purpose  of  publication  to  the 
world,  nor  for  the  purpose  of  exposing  parti- 
cular persons  to  the  public;  but  for  the  mere 
purpose  of  stating  facts  in  a  plain,  but  in  a 
strong  manner ;  and  it  was  fit  in  this  case  he 
should  state  them,  as  he  has  in  a  verv  pun- 
gent manner  in  many  parts  of  it.  If  that  be 
the  complexion  of  the  business,  I  trust  your 
loidships  will  mojst  undoubtedly  discharge 
this  nue  with  costs. 

Now,  my  lord,  I  will  go  through  shortlv,  as 
well  as  I  can,  those  parts  of  their  affidavit 
which  state  the  supposed  charges  upon  them, 
as  far  as  they  condescend  to  particulars  at  all, 
and  explain  very  shortly  the  answer  captain 
Baillie  gives  to  their  comiplaint,  which  an- 
swer I  may  once  for  all  say  is  chiefly  thus : 
that  true  it  is,  Idid  mean  all  this  you  sunpose 
me  to  mean  in  general,  and  more  parUcmarly, 
and  it  is  all  true;  and  captain  Baillie  has 
himself  gone  through  the  particulars,  and 
sworn  they  are  absolutely  true;  and  notwilh- 
stax^ding  the  padns  ^ea  at  different  times 
tonieventthe  officers  and  pensioners  from 
m£ing  a^y  viduntacy  affidavits^  judd.  every 


17}  respecting  the  Royal  HespUal  at  Greemanch.        A.  D.  1778. 


CIS 


DorUl  of  Greenwich  Hospitai  believe  they 

committed  a  very  great  otience  asainst  the 

fa^  powers,  and  would  be  punished  at  proper 

opportunity  if  they  did ;  yet  it  is  not  to  be 

vondered  there  were  to  be  found  amongst  such 

gsUant  officers  and  seamen,  a  great  number 

of  persons  who  joined  with  Mr.  BatlHe  in 

proving  the  truth  of  the  facts  of  every  charge, 

which  the  prosecutors  chose  to  pick  out,  and 

put  in  their  affidavits  in  their  own  way,  and 

upon  which  they  found  their  application  to 

the  Court. 

My  lord,  the  nature  of  the  first  charge  your 
lordship  finds  by  the  affidavits  is,  *^  Though 
there  arc  twenty-four  directors,  yet  in  truth 
some  of  them  very  seldom  attend,  except  for 
the  purpose  of  presenting  or  nominating  a 
chanty  boy  upon  the  foundation ;  that  others 
lekkm  interfere  in  the  business,  or  stay  after 
the  secretary  has  taken  notice  of  their  being 
present,  and  that  only  to  give  a  sanction  to 
the  |irocecdtngs  of  the  court."  This  is  a  sort 
of  tnin|  upon  the  mere  stating,  every  body 
would  nardly  believe,  but  captain  Baillie 
swears  it  to  be  true,  and  if  the  Itooks  of  the 
UosfHtal  were  referred  to,  it  would  appear  so : 
and  many  of  the  twenty-four  directors  hardly 
ever  attend  at  all,  others  attend  for  the  pur- 
Dose  of  some  little  emolument  to  themselves. 
Your  lordships  seem  surprized  that  these 
charges  should  be  stated  as  tnie,  but  many 
of  those  gentlemen  receive  ten  shillings  for 
their  daily  attendance ;  notwithstanding  the 
chaiter  allows  that  ten  shillings,  it  is  given 
unAer  this  restriction,  to  those  who  shall 
think  reasonable  to  demand  it ;  how  shame- 
fiii  it  is  to  demand  it !  yet  the  demand  is  al- 
wa^'s  made. 

The  directors  who  chiefly  attend,  it  is 
stated,  are  the  -wery  persons  concerned  in  the 
receipts  and  expenditure  of  the  Hospital 
money ;  that  is  sworn  to  be  true,  and  it  most 
undoubtedly  is  so,  that  the  persons  usually 
attending,  are  those  gentlemen  who  are  so 
nearly  concerned.  The  surveyor  of  the  Hos- 
pital and  receiver  of  the  monthly  sixpences 
from  every  seaman  in  the  merchant  service, 
and  the  persons  now  complaining  to  this 
Court,  are  the  persons  that  usually  do  attend. 

Mr.  Baillie  says,  and  insists  it  is  true,  that 
he  has  very  often  complained  of  this,  but  he 
has  not  had  any  redress  at  the  meeting  of 
the  directors,  though  he  is  one  by  virtue  of 
jus  ofl&ce ;  he  also  pressed  them  to  enquire 
into  the  accounts  and  the  vouchers  or  the 
receiver  of  the  sixpences,  but  Mr.  Hicks  him- 
self was  always  present  as  a  director,  and  in- 
terfered and  prevented  any  close  examination 
of  those  accounts. 

He  says  and  swears  to  the  fact  of  the  free- 
dom of  debate  being  interrupted,  and  it  is 
notorious  h  must  be  so,  and  there  ought  to 
he  a  freedom  of  enquiry  into  the  money  ex- 
pended, and  into  the  state  of  the  accounts ; 
Wl  that  has  been  prevented  by  these  acting 
•Bwclors,  those  pnersons  being  present  who 
voce  to  allow  their  own  acoouQts,  and  their 
VOL  XXL 


presence  must  have  a  considerable  weiglit 
when  such  enquiry  was  to  be  made;  the 
Court  must  see  as  I  do  what,  must  be  the 
consequence.  Then  it  seems  Mr.  Hicks  was 
never  at  sea  in  his  life,  but  is  a  freeholder  of 
Huntingdonshire. 

Court,    What  is  his  office  ? 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen,  Receiver  of  the  sixpenny 
duty  paid  by  the  seamen. 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  With  respect  to  the  next 
observation,  nobody  will  dispute  that  the 
agents  for  prizes  ought  not  to  be  directors. 
One  very  great  income  for  the  support  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  is  the  prize  money  that 
is  unclaimed  after  three  years,  and  at  this 
moment  I  believe  (I  don't  know  whether  I 
am  perfectly  correct  in  the  sum)  tHe  prize 
money  unclaimed  amounts  to  70,CX)0/.  and 
upwards. 

Now,  my  lord,  as  for  the  prize-agents,  it  is 
not  their  interest  to  settle  accounts  with  the 
Hospital,  but  to  keep  the  prize-money  in 
their  hands.  It  is  the  business  of  the  di- 
rectors to  compel  those  accounts  and  the 
payment  of  the  balance,  the  reason  is  ob- 
vious. 

Court,  How  arc  the  directors  made,  named, 
or  appointed? 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  They  are  named  by  the 
charter. 

Court.  How  are  the  vacancies  filled  up  ? 

Mr.  Murphy,  By  the  Lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  My  lord,  Mr.  Baillie  is 
complained  of  for  having  said,  in  his  book, 
that  the  independent  directors  seldom  inter- 
fere, in  the  business,  thoii«^h  they  happen  t^ 
be  present,  having  found  ny  experience  it  is 
totally  useless :  this  the  complainants  chuse 
to  suppose  relates  to  them.  To  this  Mr. 
Baillie  answers,  with  great  truth,  and  some 
humour,  that  when  he  speaks  of.  the  inde- 
pendent members,  he  does  not  mean  to  speak 
of  the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke,  Mr.  Stuart,  or 
Mr.  Hicks. 

Mr-  Solicitor  General.  Mr.  Baillie  is  a  di- 
rector now. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  He  is  nothing  now,  he  is 
suspended  from  his  office,  in  consequence  of 
the  proceedings,  at  what  was  called  a  com- 
mittee of  enquiry.  It  is  wonderful  to  con- 
ceive, how  it  should  get  into  their  affidavit, 
that  captain  Baillie  complains,  the  commis- 
sioners and  governors  at  large  arc  never  sum- 
moned— Is  It  jiot  true  ?  Your  lordship  may 
know  it— though  you  are  a  governor,  yen 
never  had  a  f^ummons. 

Earl  of  Mansfield,  No,  I  never  had. 

Mr.  Just.  Willes,  I  did  not  know  I  was  a 
governor  till  now. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  My  lord,  it  is  fit  all  the 
members  of  a  corporation  should  be  sum- 
moned, and  I  am  a  little  astonished  it  has 
not  created  a  new  place  of  sumraoner,  or 
something  of  that  sort;  it  might  be  worth 
purchasing  perhaps,  but  nothing  of  that  sort 
is  done.  It  is,  however,  a  subject'  of  com- 
l      C 


m 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Que  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiOie, 


[SO 


plaint  that  they  had  never  been  summoned. 

Court,   It  would  be  a  large  summons,  \ 
perceive,  by  the  charter. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  Amongst  the  rest  of  the 
'  fisurts  there  is  this  one.  I  see  that  there  is  a 
charge  in  the  supposed  libel  of  a  deficiency 
in  one  Ellis,  the  stewarcrs  accounts,  of  three 
thousand  five  hundred  and  fifly  odd  pounds, 
and  likewise  a  great  (Quantity  of  stores,  to  a 
considerable  amount  in  point  of  value— this 
is  notoriously  tiue — it  is  sworn  to  by  captain 
Baillie,  as  appears  by  his  affidavit,  and  otners, 
that  this  steward  Ellis  was  deficient  that 
sum,  and  he  was  permitted  to  lurk  about  the 
office  a  considerable  time  without  prosecu- 
tion, or  any  method  taken  to  get  the  money ; 
At  last  he  absconded,  and  no  enquiry  was 
made  farther  about  the  matter.  This  is  one 
of  the  charges  in  the  book  against  the  direc- 
tprs,  and  tlus  is  literally  true,  though  they 
are  pleased  to  call  it  a  supposed  deSciency. 
My  lord,  I  forbear,  though  I  see  I  have  notes 
of  many  circumstances,  not  so  well  worth 
while  to  go  into,  but  amongst  other  things  it 
is  fit  to  attend  to  tliis  charge,  that  is,  that  for 
the  emolument  of  the  persons  concerned,  the 
pensioners  have  been  served  with  bad  meat 
of  all  kinds,  and  of  a  very  inferior  quality; 
in  particular,  one  charge  is  stated,  and  that 
part  of  it,  I  am  sure,  is  tnic ;  I  am  persuaded 
It  is  in  your  lordship's  memory,  that  the  con- 
tracting butcher,  Mellish^  I  think  the  name 
is,  who  contracted  to  funiish  the  best  of 
meat,  and  to  be  paid  the  best  price ;  whereas 
it  was  proved  he  fiirnished  meat  of  a  very  in- 
.ferior  kind,  such  as  bull-beef,  and  putrid 
veal. 

Court.  BuU-staf-beef  is  the  phrase  for  it. 

Mr.  Bearcrqfl,  Your  lordship  will  find  tlie 
breach  of  contract  was  a  long  time  before  it 
VfSLa  prosecuted,  and  at  last,  the  penalties  were 
not  insisted  upon ;  and  they  were,  in  my  ap- 
prehension, very  improperly  compoundea; 
and  that  same  butcher  was  afterwards  con- 
tracted with,  and  still  supplies  the  Hospital, 
though  it  was  known  he  aealt  with  the  but- 
chers in  the  neighbourhood  for  bad  meat  of 
all  kinds ;  what  signifies  the  contract,  if  he 
has  in  many  instances  incurred  penalties,  to 
a  very  great  amount  indeed,  by  having  totally 
disreg^ded  the  contract,  in  supplymg  buU 
and  bull-stag  beef? 

t  Court.   Wiis  he  not  twice  prosecuted? 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  Yes,  my  lord,  my  aifidavits 
prove  it,  and  state  that  all  the  particulars  are 
true.  Then  it  states  that  the  apartments  of 
several  landmen  in  offices  were  enlarged,  and 
a  great  number  of  expences  incurred  to  make 
alterations  and  additional  buildings  by  no 
means  necessary ;  whilst  the  poor  pensioners 
had  besides,  bad  beef,  bad  beer,  bad  washing, 
bad  shoes  and  stockings ;  and  to  shew  the 
proceedings  to  be  gross  to  a  degree  of  shame, 
there  is  a  charge  of  persons  conveying  large 
quantities  of  water  through  pipes  into  the 
tniall  beer,  and  sworn  to  be  true.  There  are 
some  paintings  in  the  Hospital,   thai  are 


shewn  to  strangers  and  others.  It  seems 
they  wanted  cleaning,  and  there  was  1,000/. 
paid  by  the  directors,  which  is  a  very  large 
sum  of  money,  for  ih&  purpose  of  cleaning 
these  pictures  ;  and  when  the  particidars  of 
the  real  expence  are  gone  into,  it  tuhis  out 
that  one  hundred  ana  fifly  pounds  or  two 
hundred  pounds,  was  the  expence  really  and 
truly  incurred,  and  what  was  necessary,  might 
have  been  done  for  les^,  if  they  had  chose  it 
— These  arc  the  sort  of  complaints  that  hav^ 
been  enumerated  by  captain  Baillie,  which  he 
laid  before  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty, 
having  frequently  applied  to  the  directors  la 
vain  :  however,  it  did  at  last  pi'oduce  a  com- 
mittee of  inquiry^  and  that  committee  acted 
contrary  to  the  true  spirit  of  such  a  commit 
tee ;  Mr.  Baillie  applied  to  the  Board  of  Ad- 
miralty for  a  fair  and  regular  enquiry  into 
the  truth  of  those  charees,  for  the  purpose  of 
general  reformation.  But  your  lordship  will 
sec  by  the  manner  of  appointing  the  coo»- 
mittee,  and  permit  me  to  say,  by  me  conduct 
of  those  gentlemen,  at  their  several  meetinzs^ 
it  was  clearly  shewn  their  object  was  not  ^ 
enquiring  into  facts  for  the  purpose  of  redress 
ing  grievances,  but  their  great  object  was,  H 
they  could,  to  find  some  charge,  ri^bt  or 
wrong,  ajrainst  Mr.  Baillie^  to  turn  him  out 
of  his  office  in  the  Hospital — that  was  tht 
object  of  thehr  enquiry.  Your  lordship  sees 
captain  Baillie's  complaint  is  against  the  d^ 
rectors.  Your  lordship  will  be  surprised  to 
learn,  that  when  application  was  made  to 
lord  Sandwich  for  an  appointment  of  disiii* 
terested  persons  to  make  an  enquiry,  hi« 
lordship  very  coolly  applied  to  Mr.  Baillie* 
and  desired  him  to  name  seven  directors ; 
says  Mr«  Bfullie,  that  is  strange  indeed,  m^ 
complaint  is  against  the  directors — it  should 
be  governors  and  commbsioners,  that  are  not 
directors.  Says  his  lordship,  if  vou  will  not 
name  them,  I  will  name  them  for  you,  and 
lord  Sandwich  appointed  seven  persons,  all 
of  whom  are  directors,  and  without  makiojg 
any  observations,  I  will  repeat  to  your  lor£ 
ship  who  th^  are,  and  their  situation.  Th« 
first  person,  is  sir  Meyrick  Burrell,  of  whom 
I  shall  say  nothing,  but  that  he  attended 
only  once,  and  I  verily  believe  he  was 
heartily  ashamed  of  what  was  going  forwanl, 
and  tlierefore  did  not  attend  any  more.  The 
next  upon  the  Ust  is  Mr.  Peregrine  Gust,  wh« 
attended  all  the  meetings,  except  the  last ; 
and  his  absence  captain  Saillic  had  reason  to 
regret,  for  in  the  course  of  the  sittings  of  the. 
committee,  when  Mr.  Baillie  complained, 
and  with  tmth,  that  his  witnesses  were  not 
heard,  and  he  not  permitted  to  prove  the  se« 
veral  charges  in  his  book,  he  was  interrupted, 
insulted,  and  abused  by  several  of  the  par- 
ties, particularly  by  Mr.  Mylnei  be  was  call- 
ed a  blackguard  and  a  liar  by  the  reverend 
Mr.  Cooke— Mr.  Gust  said.  Be  patient,  cap- 
tain Baillie,  I  promise  you,  before  this  busH 
ness  closes,  it  will  take  a  great  deal  of  time« 
youfself  and  all  ^aw  wimesset  shall  be  fairly 


81]        mpeding  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenvsich.  A.  D.  1779. 


[23 


inrd;  on  this  account,  his  absence    Mr. 

BuiJie  had  great  reason  to  regret:  but  to- 

nrds  the  close  of  the  business,  on  the  last 
dsjy  there  attended  one  captain  Barker  in 
lus  room,  and  this  captain  Barker  was  ex- 
tremely angry  with  Mr.  Baillie  for  taking 
ii|M»  ium  to  doubt,  in  any  instance,  of  the 
propriety  of  the  conduct  of  the  directors; 
aod  whenever  Mr.  Baillie  interfered,  and  de- 
sired to  be  heard  to  prove  his  allegations,  the 
ttoeral  answer  of  Mr.  Barker  was  this,  Why, 
air,  what  do  you  mean,  by  charging  such 
people  as  the  directors?  Their  having  done 
a  thuig,  is  proof  enough  they  have  done  ri^ht 
SDd  proper,  and  there  is  no  around  to  im- 
peach the  conduct  of  such  gentlemen  as  they 
are,  and  I  will  not  suffer  it :  and  Mr.  Barker 
was  as  good  as  his  word,  for  notwithstanding 
the  promise  Mr.  Cust  n^ade,  to  hear  captain 
Beilue,  he  found  all  of  a  sudden  the  busmess 
dosed,  and  Mr.  Baillie  was  turned  out,  and 
told,  the  court  would  sit  but  one  day  more, 
aod  that  only  for  the  purpose  of  making  a 
report  to  the  Admiralty,  which  report  captain 
Baillie  never  has  seen  nor  knows,  but  by  the 
effect  of  it.  It  seems  he  has  been  suspended 
for  some  months  from  his  office,  his  pay  and 
emoluments  stopt  pendente  Ike,  This  cir- 
oimatance  alose,  my  lord,  would  most  un- 
doubtedly, if  I  was  not  to  apply  for  costs, 
render  me  inexcusable. 

Cwrf.  Have  any  of  you  got  the  report  and 
Older  for  his  suispension  ? 

Mr.  Ejergratfe.  The  copy  of  the  report  was 
deared  by  Mr.  Baillie,  but  it  was  refused. 

Mr.  Beararofft.  My  lord,  it  is  material  to 
state  that  this  captain  Barker  was  a  captain 
ofaooliier,  the  other  persons  that  attended 
arc,  a  Mr.  Savary,  storekeeper  of  the  ord- 
nance at  Gibraltar:  a  Mr.  Wells,  a  great 
shipbuilder,  and  contractor  for  the  Admi- 
ral^; a  Mr.  W.  James,  now  sir  Wm.  James, 
a  contractor  for  shipping :  and  a  Mr.  Charles 
Beynolds,  fbmaerly  a  master  of  a  merchant- 
man. This,  my  lord,  was  the  nomination  of 
the  court  of  enquiry,  and  according  to  what 
is  set  forth  of  their  proceedings  by  the  affi- 
davit of  captain  Bafllie  and  Mr.  Cowley,  it 
was  a  mockery  of  every  idea  of  justice :  a 
feice  and  a  burlesque  of  justice,  and  really 
deserves  great  censure.  I  cannot  help  taking 
notice  of  captain  Baillie's  complaint,  for,  I 
think,  he  has  great  ground  to  complain. 
That  upon  this'  occasion,  when  he  was  called 
upon,  though  not  i>eTmitted  to  prove  the 
tnith  of  the  charges  in  his  book,  he  was  con- 
fronted with  a  counsellor  and  solicitor,  whom, 
be  says,  came  to  collect  materials,  not  for  the 
pabhc  good ;  but  to  give  a  colour  to  the 
complaints  of  individuSs,  in  order  to  bring 
wm  before  the  court  of  KingVbench ;  and 
^fawqgfa  Mr.  Baillie  is  a  very  brave  man,  and 
not  daid  of  a  French  captain,  your  lordship 
Jill  find  he  was  exceedingly  intimidated,  m- 
•jed,  at  the  sight;  of  mv  worthy  friend,  Mr. 
Morgan:  for  he  found  that  Mr.  Morgan  was 
M  only  a  ooonseHor,  but  th^t  sort  of  a 


counsellor,  called  a  special  pleader  !-*and 
reported  to  be  a  gentleman  of  great  eminence 
in  that  profession ;  and  I  may  venture  to  say^ 
a  great  number  6f  i>ersons  do  entertam 
strange  opinions  of  special  pleaders,  and  take 
them  for  very  uncommon  geniuses.  And  I 
dare  say,  when  captain  Baillie  found  himself 
opposed  bv  a  person  so  extraordinary,  his 
fears  met  him ;  for  Mr.  Morgan  contrived  to 
prevent  his  going  into  any  one  part  of  his 
case— One  minute  he  was  told, '  Sir,  you  are 

*  not  to  prove  this  by  such  evidence — then^ 

*  you  shall  not  prove  that— they  are  my 
'  clients,  and  sliall  not  be  permitted  to  accuse 
'  themselves."  At  which  Baillie  was  totally 
astonished,  and  his  proofs  put  an  end  to. 

This  is  in  general  the  nature  of  the  procee<J^ 
ings  of  this  committee  of  enouiry— I  dare 
say,' I  have  omitted  a  great  numoer  of  things 
which  appeared  upon  their  proceedings 
Upon  the  whole,  my  lord,  I  contend  this  is 
not  a  libel ;  that  captain  Baillie,  in  printing^ 
this  Case,  has  done  no  more  than  his  duty, 
and  that  duty,  as  1  conceive,  with  decency, 
and  there  is  not  the  least  foundation  for  this 
application. 

But,  my  lord,  in  consequence  of  the  rule 
being  granted  for  captain  Baillie  to  shew 
cause,  they  have  made  an  affidavit,  giving 
their  reason  why  they  did  not  apply,  sooner 
to  the  court;  they  say,  they  thought  it  was 
not  proper  to  make  the  application,  because 
there  was  a  committee  of^  enquiry,  to  call 
upon  Mr.  Baillie  to  prove,  if  he  could,  the 
several  charges  contamed  in  his  book.  My 
lord,  it  is  singular,  that  when  these  gentle- 
men themselves  are  speaking  of  this  court  of 
enquiry,  they  will  not  venture  to  say  a  word 
of  Its  nature  or  proceedings ;  they  dare  not, 
I  will  venture  to  say,  not  one  of  them  dared  ^ 
they  were  very  wisely  advised  to  abstain 
from  doing  it — th<^  will  not  dare  to  swear  it 
was  in  truth  a  fair  enquiry  into  the  Charges, 
and  that  Mr.  Baiilie  was  called  upon  and 
heard  to  prove  his  charges. 

Upon  all  the  circumstances  of  this  case, 
can  there  be  a  doubt  this  rule  will  be  dis- 
charged }  I  am  very  earnest  in  hoping  it  will 
b^  discharged  with  costs;  if  not,  the  com* 
plainants  will  have  succeeded  in  the  only  ob- 
ject of  their  application.  1  have  no  concep- 
tion, your  lordship  will  make  the  rule  abso- 
lute ;  for  if  half  a  dozen  are  to  join  their 
own  purses,  and  the  purse  of  the  ilospital  is 
to  be  joined  with  them,  in  this  case  thev  can- 
not but  prevail  in  this  prosecution,  to  the  en- 
tire ruin  of  captain  Baillie ;  their  affidavits 
requiring  such  answers,  as  made  the  business 
spread  out  to  a  most  enormous  size :  captain 
Baillie  is  therefore  obliged  to  give  answers  to 
particular  charges,  unnecessary  as  they  are, 
and  it  has  not  cost  him  less  than  three  or 
four  hundred  pounds  upon  this  occasion. 

I  conceive,  therefore,  the  court  will,  for  the 
obvious  reasons  I  have  already  stated,  be  of 
opinion,  this  rule  ought  to  be  discharged,  and 
discharged  with  costs. 


83] 


16  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  TJumas  Bttillie^  [24 


I  should  have  taken  up  a  ereat  deal  more 
lime,  in  proportion  to  what  I  nave  done,  if  I 
had  stated  all  the  particulars  of  the  aiBdavils. 
This  is  the  general  outlihe  of  the  case ;  and 
when  our  affidavits  are  read,  I  dare  say  your 
lordships  will  find  the  case  much  stronger 
than  I  have  stated  it ;  and,  I  trust,  your  lord- 
i»hip  willy  as  justice  cannot  be  done  without 
it,  discharge  the  rule  with  costs. 

Court,  How  is  the  court  appointed  that 
made  this  enquiry ;  I  see  it  is  a  court  of  go- 
vernors ? 

Mr.  Murphy,  It  was  appointed  by  lord 
Sandwich,  and  they  are  all  directors  as  well 
as  governors.  ^ 

Court.  I  want  to  know  under  what  autho- 
rity it  was,  the  committee  was  appointed  ? 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  It  was  under  the  authority 
of  a  general  court  of  governors,  which  I 
should  have  stated. 

Court.  It  was  not  any  omission. 

Mr.  Bearcroft,  It  consisted  of  about  seven- 
teen governors,  out  of  that  number  twelve  or 
fourteen  of  them  were  directors,  and  of  those 
very  directors,  the  court  of  enquiry  was  named 
by  lord  Sandwich  himself. 

The  Affidavit  of  Thomas  Baillie,esq.  lieu- 
tenant governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  was 
read,  wnich  being  very  long,  is  here  omitted. 

Court.  I  see  the  tendency  of  your  other  af- 
fidavits ;  by  this  they  are  of  the  same  ten- 
dency with  what  he  says. 

Mr.  Murphy.  My  lord,  they  are  all  very 
material. 

Lord  Mamjield.  They  can  be  read,  when 
you  have  stated  them,  and  shewn  the  mate- 
riality of  them  :  I  shall  know  better  how  to 
attend  to  them,  when  I  see  the  use  you  make 
of  them. 

Mr.  Hargrove.  I  am  not  sufficiently  ac- 
i|uainted  with  the  i^ature  of  the  case,  to  take 
it  from  what  has  been  read,  without  hear- 
ing the  affidavits  read. 

Lord  Mansfield.  I  take  it  from  the  defend- 
ant's affidavit,  that  the  others  ioin  with  him 
in  verif^'ing  the  facts,  and  Cowley  concurring 
with  bim,  as  to  the  behaviour  of  the  com- 
mittee of  enquiry ;  and  when  it  comes  to  be 
^lore  material,  to  be  precise  and  exact,  they 
will  be  read ;  I  shall  take  it,  from  Mr.  Mur- 
phy *s  opening  de  bene  esacy  we  may  stay  till 
the  last  day  of  the  term,  if  we  are  to  read 
them  all. 

Mr.  Peckham : 

May  it  please  your  lordships  to  far 
vour  me  in  behalf  of  this  much-injured  gen- 
tleman, captain  Baillic,  who,  after  forty 
years  service  with  honour  to  himself,  and 
glory  to  his  country,  is  dragged  into  this  court 
to  answer  as  a  criminal,  though  guilt}'  of  no 
other  crime  than — that  which,  in  the  opinion 
of  the  directors  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  is  of 
the  most  enormous  magnitude ;  the  crime'Of 
an  honest  and  conVientio.us  discharge  of  his 
dijtv. 


Had  captain  Baillie  slept  in  his  office ;  had 
he  been  inattentive  to  the  duties  of  his  star- 
tion ;  nay,  had  he  been  guilty  of  peculatieif , 
and  joined  in  the  generalplunder,  he  would 
not  nave  been  brought  before  your  lordships 
this  d^yas  a  delinquent;  but  probably  womd 
have  been  the  conndeotial  friend  of  the  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty,  and  might  even  have 
supplanted  the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke  in  his 
favour. 

It  was  his  duty  to  endeavour,  to  the  ut- 
most of  his  power,  to  remedy  those  abuses 
which  called  aloud  for  redress.  It  is  for  the 
faithful  discharge  of  that  duty,  he  is  now 
harrassed  with  this  prosecution,  in  the  vain 
and  idle  hope,  that  in  his  ruin  will  be  buried 
that  censure  and  punishment,  which  they 
must  be.  conscious  their  conduct  and  their 
crimes  most  justly  deserve. 

My  lord,  the  intention  of  the  establishment 
of  Greenwich  Hospital  was  for  seamen — that 
is  the  institution.  The  charter  says,  ^  All 
the  officers  to  be  appointed  in  and  foMhe 
said  Hospital  shall  oe  seamen  only.'' — ^The 
words  are  precise  and  positive,  and  can  be 
neither  explained  away  nor  contradicted. 

By  the  original  instrument  by  which  the 
Hospital  was  established,  the  commissioners, 
governors,  and  directors,  are  all  to  be  men  of 
rank,  fortune,  and  ability ;  24  directors  are 
named  by  the  charter,  and  appointed  by  the 
Admiralty,  for  the  external  government,  so 
far  as  it  relates  to  the  expenditure  of  money, 
the  making  of  contracts  for>provbions,  and 
other  necessaries ;  and  a  council  of  naval  o& 
ficers  is  or  ought  to  be  appointed  by  the  Ad- 
miralty, for  the  internal  government  of  the 
house,  under  the  name  of  "  Governor  and 
Council.'' — My  client,  captain  Baillie,  as  lieu- 
tenant governor,  is  by  the  charter  a  member 
of  the  general  court  of  commissioners  and 
governors,  and  also  a  director ;  he  is  likewise 
a  member  of  the  council ;  and  in  the  absence 
of  the  governor,  is  chairman  of  the  two  last 
boards,  and  commanding  officer  in  the  Hos- 
pital. 

II<5  was  therefore  impelled,  by  every  tie  of 
duty,  to  remedy  the  abuses  he  had  complain- 
ed of.  Added  to  this,  there  are  three  letters, 
stated  in  his  printed  Case— orders,  I  may  call 
them— from  two  different  governors,  express- 
ly charging  him' to  keep  a  watchful  eye  upor& 
the  pen-and-ink  men,  as  the  governors 
thought  proper  to  call  them. 

Captain  Baillie  perceiving,  in  everv  departs 
ment  of  the  Hospital^  most  shameful  plunder 
and  peculation— findms  landmen  introduced, 
in  express  violation  of&e  charter— the  provi- 
sions intolerable— the  men's  clothes  scantily 
provided,  and  upwards  of  30,000/.  expended 
m  8  vears  in  useless  alterations,  thought  he 
should  not  do  his  duty  by  himself,  by  the  sea- 
men, and  his  country,  if  he  did  not  make 
those  complaints,  which  as  an  honest  man  he 
was  bound  to  do,  and  for  which  every  indivi^ 
dual  owes  him  thanks  and  reverence. 

Th^  Hospital  being  in  ]tbi3  situation,  th« 


45]         respeding  the  Royal  Ilospkai  at  Greemwch,  A.  D-  1778. 


t25 


lieiitenant  governor  applied,  accoidine  to  the 
ndoof  the  house,  first  to  the  council:  they 
app]y  to  the  directors,  and  afterwards  to  the 
«ovemor,  who  pay  no  attention  to  his  com- 
plaiats :  he  then  applies  to  the  first  lord  of 
the  Admirahy,  but  without  efiect:  and  at 
kst  he  presents  to  him  the  printed  Case,  to 
which  he  desires  an  answer ;  but  after  many 
days  were  elapsed,  he  is  told,  **  No  answer 
mMjJd  be  given.'' 

He  then  appUes  to  the  lords  of  the  Admi- 
tahy,  through  the  medium  of  the  secretary, 
with  a  respectful  letter,  and  his  printed  Case 
enclosed — that  met  with  as  ill  ^ate  as  his  for- 
mer application  ;  and  captain  Baillie  then,  and 
not  tm  then,  applied  to  the  commissioners 
and  governors,  as  the  dernier  resort,  to  re- 
medy those  evils. 

If  the  intermediate  officers  refiised  to  ad- 
dress the  Admiralty,  or  ^neral  court,  captain 
Baiilie  was  willing  to  ^ive  as  little  oiience  as 
possible  in  doing  it  hmiself ;  for  he  printed 
the  Case  of  Greenwich  Hospital  with  the  ut- 
most caution :  and  he  tells  you  the  reason  of 
piinting  it  was,  there  were  such  a  number  of 
xxmimissioners  and  governors,  to  whom  it  was 
necessary  to  communicate  the  facts  he  had 
stated,  that  it  would  have  been  impossible  to 
have  done  it  in  manuscript ;  therefore^  as  the 
easiest  and  best  method,  he  had  it  pnnted — 
but,  solely  with  a  view  that  the  governors 
shouM  read  and  digest  it,  in  order  that  the 
truth  of  the  several  facts  therein  stated  might 
bemvestigated. 

Soon  after  this  publication,  as  it  has  been 
called,  had  l>een  thus  delivered,  it  became 
necessaiy  sonnething  should  be  done;  and 
therefore  a  mock  tribunal  was  instituted, 
which  they  thought  proper  to  call  a  court  of 
enquiiy^a  court  in  itself  illegal,  because  im- 
propeny  constituted:  and,  therefore,  what- 
ever was  done  in  it  is  nothing  to  the  present 
purpose;  for  though  a  general  court  was 
called,  it  was  thought  expedient  to  delegate 
the  enquiry  to  a  committee  of  seven,  which 
seven  are  directors. 

If  there  had  been  any  gross  misbehaviour 
in  the  Hospital,  and  no  redress  could  be  ob- 
tained, the  commissioners  and  governors  at 
large  ought  to  have  selected  a  number  of  go- 
vernors of  independent  fortune  and  situation, 
who  ^ere  not  directors.  Men  of  that  de- 
scription would  have  probed  the  bu^ness  to 
thairattom;  but.  instead  of  those,  they  were 
a  packed  council  for  the  occasion ;  and  the 
omn  of  enquiry  consisted  of  the  very  delin- 
quents thenaaelves. 

Your  lordships  vrill  be  astonished  to  hear 
that  the  committee  sat  in  judgmentupon  their 
own  criities,  and  that  those  gentlemen  were 
^rpointed  by  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty. 
You  find,  with  an  adroitness  peculiar  to  him- 
^,  he  selected  a  set  of  men  devoted  to  him ; 
obligated  to  him  for  the  very  bread  tiiey  eat, 
^  which,  in  part,  arises  out  of  a  fund  ap- 
fnipriated  for  the  use  of  disabled  seamen,  and 
i»  wki«b  the  seamen  themselves  contribute. 


How  do  they  proceed?  Captain  Baillie's 
witnesses  arerefiued  to  lie  heard— he  applies 
to  the  books,  that  he  may  have  evidence 
from  those  unerring  vouchers— the  liooks  are 
refused  to  be  opened ---he  was  browbeat  by 
their  counsel,  and  insulted  by  their  cifvil  offi- 
cers, a  set  of  landmen,  in  a  manner  that  a 
gentleman  must  blush  to  hear  of;  Mylne, 
the  clerk  of  the  works,  calling;  him  a  black- 
guard, while  Cooke,  tiie  cliaphun,  brands  him 
as  a  liar.  That  a  clergyman  should  be  so  lost 
to  all  sense  of  decency,  as  to  forget  that  de- 
corum which  more  peculiarly  belongs  to  his 
situation,  makes  me  blush  for  the  profession 
of  which  he  is  so  unworthy  a  member ;  but, 
that  a  man  of  low  birth,  and  no  education, 
should  talk  a  language  familiar  to  himself,  I 
neither  reprobate  nor  am  surprised  at ;  yet 
the  directors  that  sat  in  the  court  of  enquiry, 
ousht  not  to  have  permitted  a  brave,  honest, 
ola  seaman  to  have  been  treated  in  that 
shameless  way,  by  men  who,  from  profes- 
sion or  situation,  were  shielded  from  his  re- 
sentment. 

After  the  committee  had  sat  some  days, 
Mr.  .Cust,  their  Chairman,  who  appeared 
ashamed  of  their  conduct  and  their  cause, 
withdrew  himself  from  the  committee ;  and 
Mr.  Barker,  a  captain  of  a  collier,  was  called 
to  the  chair ;  a  proper  instrument  for  the  in- 
tended purpose :  that  man  was  mean  as  well 
as  weak  enough  to  say,  that  he  was  employ- 
ed by  lord  Sandwich,  and  was  to  be  paid  for 
his  labour :  the  labourer  proved  himself 
worthy  of  his  hire ;  for,  in  a  few  minutes, 
there  was  an  end  of  the  committee,  this  ho- 
nourable man  asserting,  that  evidence  was 
immaterial;  that  it  was  libellous  to  doubt 
the  integrity  of  the  directors;  that  he,jthere- 
fore,  should  close  the  business,  without  hear- 
ing those  witnesses  of  captain  Baillie,  which 
Mr.  Cust  had  promised  should  be  heard. 

Your  lordships  will  observe,  the  reason  this 
court  was  not  sooner  applied  to,  in  the  lan- 
guage of  the  prosecutor's  affidavits,  was, 
"  We  could  not  apply  before,"  because  the 
court  of  enquiry  was  not  finished :  yet  there 
is  not  a  man  upon  that  court  of  enouiry  who 
dares  to  say,  tne  facts  charged  are  disproved, 
or  that  any  one  of  the  delinquents  was  not 
guilty  of  the  crimes  imputed  to  him.  It  would 
not  perhaps  be  difficult  to  guess,  at  the  real 
reason ;  but  it  is  foreign  to  the  present  pur- 
pose. Perhaps  a  greater  man  than  any  of 
these  found  himself  attacked  in  another 
place,  where,  conscious  of  the  truth  of  cap- 
tain Baillie's  charges,  and  of  the  impossibility 
of  vindicating  himself,  he  thought  it  would  be 
prudent  to  avoid  the  enquiry,  by  asserting, 
that  it  was  to  undergo  a  discussion  in  West- 
minster-hall. That  apology  might  silence 
the  peers ;  and  he  then,  to  save  his  credit, 
mignt  order  his  minions  to  prefer  this  prose- 
cution, not  vrith  the  hope  or  success,  but  to 
save  him  from  the  enquiry  he  had  so  much 
reason  to  dread.  Soon  after  this  manoeuvre 
had  succeeded,  and  your  lordships  had  be*A 


S7] 


18  GEORGE  HI.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie^  [SS 


applied  to  for  infbrmations,  Mr.  Hicks,  the 
sixpenny  receiver,  who  was  one  of  the  persons 
charged  by  captain  Baillie,  who  is  one  of  his 
prosecutors,  and  who  sat  in  judgment  upon 
nim  at  a  general  court,  where  lora  Sandwich 
presided ;  at  that  court,  Mr.  Hicks  proposed, 
that  captain  BailUe  should  be  removed  from 
bis  employment  of  lieutenant-governor.  The 
noble  lord  foi^ot,  for  a  moment,  the  dignity 
of  his  station;  and,  more  like  a  drunken 
chairman  in  a  night^cellar  than  a  peer  of  par- 
liament, bawls  out,  **  All  you  that  are  of  that 
opinion,  hold  up  your  hands.''  They  all  join- 
ed in  full  chorus  for  suspension ;  and  every 
tdirty  hand  was  immediately  exalted ;  so  that, 
in  five  minutes,  this  brave  old  officer  was  tried, 
condemned,  and  executed. 

My  lords,  this  sentence  is  to  captain  Bail- 
lie  a  very  serious  business ;  for  it  robs  him  of 
6002.  a-year ;  and  if  his  wife  should  become  a 
widow,  she  loses  her  pension  of  100/.  per  ann. 
more :  and  he  now  stands  before  you^  after 
being  worn  out  in  lone  and  faithfiil  services— 
an  honest  man  indeed,  but  without  a  shilling 
in  his  pocket ! 

My  lord,  it  will  be  necessary  to  ask  your 
lordship,  whether,  takine  the  whole  of  this 
Case  iojgether — printed  tor  the  expriDss  pur- 
pose or  giving  information  to  those  who 
wanted  it,  in  obedience  to  the  dutv  he  owed 
bimself  and  the  public — can  tliis  be  called  a 
libel?  Is  it  a  libel  for  a  man  to  do  his  duty  ? 
Is  it  a  Ubel,  for  a  man  to  complain  to  those 
who  have  idone  the  power  to  redress  the 
grievance  ? 

If  this  is  to  be  called  a  libel^  I  doubt  not  but 
the  lime  will  come,  when  a  grand  jury  will 
baVe  informations  filed  against  them,  as  li- 
bellers, for  the  presentments  they  have  been 
bound  in  duty  to  prefer. 

I  know  but  of  one  case  in  point ;  which  is 
the  case  of  the  convicted  highwayman,  who 
threatened  to  swear  the  peace  against  his 
jury,  for  having  put  him  in  fear  of  his  life. 
Having  thus  considered  the  Case,  as  taken  to- 
gether, not  to  be  a  libel,  let  us  state  the  parti- 
cular parts  of  it,  and  see  whether  any  thing 
can  be  collected  that  is  libellous.  I  will  not  go 
through  a  tedious  detail  of  what  has  been  al- 
ready spoken  to ;  but  will  mention  some  par- 
ticulars, if  there  is  light  sufficient  to  let  me 
refer  to  my  brief  with  respect  to  the  joint 
affidavit  of  the  three  directors,  the  charge  is, 
^  The  directors  never  presume  to  exercise 
their  own  judgment,  but  give  their  votes 
agreeable  to  the  directions  they  receive^ — 
^'Thereby  insinuating'^-^observe  the  insinua- 
tions !  that  the  directors  were  guilty  of  fraud  ! 
fmd  did  not  vote  according  to  their  con- 
science ! 

Is  that  insinuation  iustified  by  the  charge } 
Does  it  necessarily  follow,  that  men,  who  do 
not  exercise  their  judgment,  must  act  con- 
trary tothenr  conscience,  or  that  they  are 
l^lty  of  fhuid,  because  they  obey  the  direc- 
tums  of  another  ?  Are  the  mandates  of  loi^ 
fiaodwich  so  wkked,  tl^at  obedience  to  them 


becomes  criminal?  These  wretched  affidavit* 
men  appear  to  me  to  be  the  libellers ;  not  the 
defendant,  who  has  written  the  truth. 

There  b  another  charge  which  they  have 
disingenuously  construed,  but  dare  not  deny  ; 
and  have  taken  only  a  piece  of  the  paragraph, 
'^  That  (meaning  the  government  of  the  Hoa* 
pital)  which  has  been  eventually  formed,  is 
rather  a  burlesque  upon  authority,  as  nothing 
can  be  more  absurd  than  to  appoint  persons, 
with  all  the  grave  solemnity  of  rod  business, 
to  examine  into  and  controul  their  own  con- 
duct; to  check  and  point  out  objections  to 
their  own  accounts,''  meaning  thereby  (ms 
they  swear  in  their  affidaviu)  that  those  di* 
rectors  who  have  accounts  to  settle,  aie 
guilty  of  fraud,  -and  n^igence :  does  that 
follow?  Certainy  not.  But  the  impropriety 
of  such  appointments  is  glaring;  and  the  first 
,  part  of  the  sentence,  which  they  have  thought 
proper  to  lop  oS,  expresses  it,  ^*  Thus,  iqstead 
of  a  government  of^  that  perfect  kind,  which 
might  naturally  be  expected  from  the  anxious 
care  which  breaUies  tnrough  evei^'  line  of  the 
original  instruments  by  which  it  is  estiU>l]sh- 
ed,  that  which  has  been  eventually  formed  is 
rather  a  burlesque  upon  authority,  6cc,  &c.'' 

Now  your  lordship  sees  how  the  sentence 
is  mutilated,  and  what  false  conclusions  they 
have  drawn  from  those  premises.  There  are 
a  great  variety  of  shnilar  instances  in  their 
affidavits,  even  to  bits  of  sentences  and  half^ 
lines.  I  wish  to  read,  and  to  observe  upon 
some  of  them  ;  but  it  is  impossible  for  me  to 
see  by  this  light,  and  I  cannot  recollect  them 
with  sufficient  accuracy,  to  state  them  with 
necessary  precision ;  therefore  I  shall  content 
myself  witn  a  few  observations  to  your  lord- 
ship upon  the  wjiole  purport  of  what  the  pro- 
sepitors  say,  *'  So  far  as  the  charge  tends  to 
criminate  me,  I  deny  it."  That  is  the  man- 
ner some  charges  are  treated  in — that  is  the 
form — ^they  swear,  this  or  that  is  not  true ;  or, 
it  don't  tend  to  criminate  me.  With  what 
face  then  do  the  gentlemen  come  here  to 
make  the  application. 

If  it  does  not  criminate,  why  do  they  make 
such  application  ?  If  it  does  criminate  them, 
they  ought  to  be  indicted  for  perjury;  for  all 
the  charges  are  substantiated  beyond  a  possi- 
bility of  doubt — not  only  by  the  affidavit  of 
captain  Baillie,  but  the  concurring  testimony 
of  at  least  thirty  others. 

For  example — the  facts,  with  respect  to  the 
butcher,  cannot  be  denied.  The  charge  is^ 
that  he  who  has  been  convicted,  is  again  em- 
ployed. Then  say  they  '<  This  change,  so  far 
as  It  criminates  me,  is  not  true."  Tne  truth 
of  the  fact  cannot  be  controverted — then  it 
does  not  tend  to  criminate  me — If  it  does  not, 
for  what  purpose  do  they  come  here?— I  take 
upon  me  to  say,  upon  my  veracity,  thatevery 
charge  is  answered  in  the  way  I  have  now 
mentioned ;  or  else  they  draw  their  condu* 
sion,  and  say,  This  I  deny!— For  instance— 
they  state  a  charge — from  that  charge,  they 
draw  a  perverse  and  &lae  oooclusion^-'aaid 


0]         tx^ectuig  tie  Rotf^  Hotpkat  at  Gnmaich.         A.  D.  1778. 


C» 


then  they  say  (hoping  to  impose  upon  the 
oooft)  **  This  we  deny,'*  referring  to  their 
ovn  coDcrhision,  which  is  the  antecedent,  that 
dicy  know  to  he  faiee,  and  take  no  notice  of 
the  charge  which  standc  uncontradicted. 

1  trust  these  few  ohservations  aie  complete 
answers  to  every  part  of  their  affidavits :  I 
take  upon  me  to  say,  there  is  not  a  fact  in  the 
book,  but  what  is  positively  proved.  There 
is  not  a  &ct,  which  they  have  attempted  to 
deny.  I  shimld  therefore  insult  the  court,  if 
I  oMild  suppose  the  rule  would  not  he  dis- 
charged with  costs. 

My  fordy  I  have  ever  understood  when 
lenttemea  come  into  this  court  upon  ground- 
Kss  applications,  though  much  more  favour- 
ably circmnstanoed  than  the  present,  that< 
this  court  will  give  costs  to  the  adverse  party ; 
ibr  it  would  be  extremely  hard  indeed  for  an 
innocent  man  to  be  dragged  here  to  answer,  at 
a  great  expence,  a  crime  which  had  no  exist- 
ence hut  in  the  maUce  of  his  prosecutors. 

Costs  have  been  granted  in  informations 
a^iiist  justices  of  the  peace,  in  informations 
in  the  nature  of  a  Quo  Warranto ;  and  though 
those  informations  differ  from  the  present 
appUcatioD,  yet  the  amercing  the  prosecutor 
in  coats  is  founded  on  the  same  immutable 
law  of  justice,  that  the  innocent  should  not 
be  hamssed  without  reconipence^  and  that 
the  wron^  doer  should  defray  the  expence  he 
had  oocaaioneH. 

Who  is  at  the  expence  of  this  prosecution } 
i  see  many  of  the  prosecutors  here :  will  they* 
aay  it  comes  out  of  their  own  pockets  ?  I  see 
the  solicitor  of  Greenwich  Hospital  here,  at- 
tending as  their  attorney:  he  likewise  is  si- 
lent. Then  I  am  justified  in  saying  the  pro- 
secutors are  not  to  pay^lct  them  deny  it  if 
they  dare ! 

u  it  pos»ble,  my  lord,  that  these  men's 
cxpences  shall  bedeiraved  out  of  the  treasury 
•f  Greenwich  Hospital,  appropriated  to  the 
most  praise-worthy  purposes,  while  this  im- 
happy  gentleman  is  to  be  ruined  by  paying' 
his  own  costs,  though  he  prevails  against  his 
prosecutors,  who  cannot,  who  dare  not,  deny 
the  charges? 

There  is  a  technical  expression  used  in  the 
law,  ^  that  every  man  should  come  into  this 
court  with  clean  hands."  Which  of  the  pro- 
Mcotors  can  claim  the  benefit  of  the  expres- 
wmf 

Is  Mr.  Hicks^e  sixpenny  receiver,  in  that 
predicament?  But  enough  has  been  already 
said  of  lum,  to  convince  your  lordship  that  he 
does  not  come  with  clean  hands. 

la  what  iisht  does  Mr.  Ibhetson  appear?  — 
A  mere  clenc  in  office,  who  lifts  his  hand 
against  a  lieutenant  of  the  Hospital,  and 
rtdkes  a  onvple  who  was  without  defence. 
Hub  is  not  the  onlv  instance  of  his  crueltv ; 
fer  apoorhelpless  old  pensioner  stands  in  juds- 
BMKt  aainst  him,  whom  he  beat  unmerciful- 
If-  wlufe  hleeding  at  his  feet !  Are  these 
the  dean  hands  which  come  for  informa- 
tfatts  stained  inth  the  blood  of  the  M, 


the  impotent  and  infirm  I  But  let  us  look  at 
the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke,  that  worthy  leader  of 
these  disgraceful  scenes,  that  negociator  of 
every  thing  that  is  infamous.  1  am  not  to  ha 
deterred  from  my  dut^,  but  will  speak  of  meit 
as  they  are ;  though  I  should  be  ashamed  to 
use  such  language,  if  I  could  not  justify 
every  word  I  shall  say  of  tiiat  abandoned 
man. 

It  is  proved,  beyond  a  posaability  of  donbt^ 
that  tbb  man,  who  is  a  director  of  a  great 
establishment,  who  ought  to  have  been  tha 
first  to  prosecute  the  contracting  butcher,  for 
his  numberless  fiauds  on  the  poor  pensioners^ 
was  the  man,  that  was  shameless  enough  to 
apply  to  different  persons,  beggine  them  to 
suppress  their  evidence  against  that  delin- 
quent. .  Can  there  be  a  more  atrocious  act 
thaa  to  suborn  witnesses  in  fiivour  of  that 
defendant,  which,  as  a  director  and  a  {daiqt^ 
in  the  cause,  he  yns  bound  to  bring  ta 
justice? 

The  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  has  been  guilty  of  an- 
other act,  which  cries  aloud  for  vengeance^ 
He  told  different  gentlemen,  who  wereofficera 
in  the  Hospital—* 

'*  If  you  are  seen  with' captain  Baillie,  lord 
Sandwich  will  stop  your  preferment  for  it^ 
and,  if  he  applies  to  parliament,  will  expel 
him  the  Hospital  :^  ano,  lest  his  words  should 
not  gain  creoit,  he  stampt  it  with  the  sai^ctioa 
of  an  oath,  saying,  *  Bv  God  it  is  true !" 

This  is  the  man  wdo  is  called  the  confi- 
dential director  of  lord  Sandwich.  I  vow  to 
God  I  am  ashamed  to  hear  it.  Sure  it  must 
be  impossible  that  a  noble  lord  should  so  far 
foi^t  the  dignity  of  his  station,  as  to  be  con- 
nected with  such  a  man,  or  to  descend  to  such 
unexampled  meanness,  as  to  prevent  gentle- 
men from  holding  communication  with  cap- 
tain Baillie,  or  wreaten  him  with  ruin,  for 
persevering  in  his  duty. 

I  will  not  believe  it  of  the  noble  lord ;  Mr. 
Cooke  must  have  held  this  languafc  without 
authority ;  and  I  trust  in  future  he  will  not 
enjoy,  since  he  can  no  longer  deserve,  the  at- 
tention of  lord  Sandwich  as  a  confidential 
firiend. 

Mr.  Mylne,  the  clerk  of  the  works,  thought 
proper  to  call  the  lieutenant-governor  a  black- 
guard, and  dared  to  strike  one  of  the  kin^s 
lieutenants  daring  the  sitting  of  the  commit- 
tee. A  man  bom  with  a  trowel  in  his  hand, 
a  bricklayer,  struck  a  gentleman  for  giving 
evidence  m  the  court  oT  enquiry !  Yet  these 
are  the  men  that  apply  to  your  lordship,  and 
beg  you  will  nqt  discharge  the  rule;  but 
grant  ah  information  against  captain  Baillie. 

These  are  the  men,  my  lord,  that  have  acted, 
I  am  not  ashamed  to  say,  with  equal  infamy 
and  meanness.  If  ever  men  ouffht  tu  be 
amerced  in  costs  for  bringmg  an  ill  grounded 
prosecution,  they  are  now  before  the  court. 

My  lord,  it  is  so  dark,  it  is  impossible  for 
me  to  recur  to  my  notes,  to  state  many  things 
which  ought  to  be  stated ;  notwithstanding; 
I  hope,  fiom  what  has  been  already  said  bgr 


31] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  afCaplain  Ttomas  Bailtie,  [3S 


the  gentlemen  idio  have  tpoken,  and  from  the  i 
few  observationa  I  hayeoeen  able  to  make, 
that  your  lordships  will  feel,  that  this  rule 
•ught  to  be  discharged  with  costs. 
fL>>urt  adjourned  till  the  next  day.] 

November  34. 

The  Hod.  Thomat  Enkinc : 

-My  lord  ;*  I  am  likewise  of  counsel  for 
the  author  of  this  supposed  libel :  and  if  the 
matter  for  consideration  had  been  merely  a 
question  of  private  "wrong,  in  which  the  inte- 
rests of  society  were  no  farther  concerned, 
than  in  the  protection  of  the  innocent,  I 
snould  have  thoueht  myself  well  justified, 
after  the  very  able  defence  made  by  the 
learned  gentlemen  who  have  spoken  before 
me,  in  sparing  your  lordship,  already  fi^tigued 
with  the  subject,  and  in  leaving  my  client  to 
the  prosecutor's  counsel  and  the  judgment  of 
the  Court. 

But  upon  an  occasion  of  this  serious  and 
dangerous  complexion,  when  a  British  subject 
is  brought  before  a  court  of  justice  only  for 
having  ventured  to  attack  abuses,  which  owe 
their  continuance  to  the  danger  of  attacking 
them ;  when,  without  any  motives  but  bene- 
yplence,  justice,  and  public  spirit,  he  has  ven- 
tured to  attack  them  though  supported  by 
power,  and  in  that  department  too,  where  it 
itas  the  duty  of  his  office  to  detect  and  expose 
them ;  I  cannot  relinquish  the  high  privilege 
of  defending  such  a  character ;  I  will  not  give 
up  even  m;^  small  share  ofiYie  honour  of  repel- 
ling and  of  exposing  so  odious  a  prosecution. 

No  man,  my  lord,  respects  more  than  I  do 
the  authority  of  the  laws,  and  I  trust  I  shall 
not  let  fall  a  single  word  to  weaken  the  ground 
I  mean  to  tread,  by  advancing  proposition!, 
which  shall  oppose  or  even  evade  the  strictest 
rules  laid  down  by  the  Court  in  questions  of 
this  nature. 
.  Indeed,  it  would  be  as  unnecessary  as  it 
would  be  indecent ;  it  will  be  sufficient  for 
me  to  call  vour  iordship's  attention  to  the 
marked  and  striking  difference  between  the 
writing  before  you,  and  I  may  Venture  to  say 
almost  every  other,  that  has  been  the  sub- 
ject of  argument  on  a  rule  for  a  criminal  in- 
formation. 

The  writings  or  pubtications,  which  have 
been  brought  before  this  Court,  or  before 

*  la  the  IntrodoetioD  to  thit  •peeoli  id  the  rsoent- 
ly  published  CoUeetion  of  Lord  Bnkine't  Specehet,  U 
is  stated,  **  Mr.  Enkioe  spoke  from  the  back  row  of 
the  coart,  we  beliere  for  the  fint  time,  ai  he  had  onlj 
bdeo  called  to  the  bar  on  the  last  day  of  the  term 
preceding."  The  most  able  and  eloquent  reviewer  of 
that  poblication  troly  observes,  that  by  this  speech 
Mr.  fErskine,  intlie  very  outset  of  his  brilliant  career^ 
aitonislied  the  legal  world  by  a  display  of  talent 
which  has  indeed  been  outshone,  hot  by  no  means  ob- 
scured even  by  his  own  riper  efforts.  See  Edinburgh 
Review,  rol.  16.  p.  103.  I  an  informed  that  the 
espressioBS  of  delight  and  admiratioD,  which  this 
Speech  excited  in  Wettminsler-hall,  have  never  been 
paralleled  then, 


orand  juries,  as  libels  on  individualsy  have 
been  attacks  on  the  characters  of  private  men, 
by  writers  stimulated  sometimes  by  resent- 
ment, sometimes,  perhaps,  by  a  mistaken 
zeal;  or  they  have  been  severe  and  unfounded 
strictures  on  the  characters  of  public  men, 
proceeding  from  officious  persons  taking  upon 
themselves  the  censorial  office,  without  tem- 
perance or  due  information,  and  without  any 
call  of  duty  to  examine  into  the  partfcular  de- 
partment, of  which  they  choose  to  become 
the  voluntary  guardians:  a  guardianship 
which  they  generally  content  themselves 
with  holding  in  a  newspaper  for  two  or  three 
posts,  and  then,  with  a  senerouty  which. 
$hines  on  all  tnankind  alile,  correct  eveiy 
department  of  the  state,  and  find  at  the  end 
of  their  lucubrations,  that  they  themselves 
are  the  only  honest  men  in  the  community. 
When  writers  of  this  description  suffer,  how- 
ever we  may  be  occasionally  sorry  for  their 
misdirected  zeal,  it  is  impossible  to  aigue 
against  the  law  that  censure^  them. 

But  I  beseech  your  lordship  to  compare 
these  men  and  their  works,  with  my  chent, 
and  the  publication  before  the  Court. 

Wiiohkef  What  is  hU  duty  f  What  Has  he 
written  i  To  whom  has  he  zcritten  f  And  what 
motive  induced  him  to  write  ¥ 

He  is  lieutenant  governor  of  the  Royal 
Hospital  of  Greenwich,  a  palace  built  for  the 
reception  of  aged  and  disabled  men,  who 
have  maintain^  the  empire  of  EneUmd  on 
the  seas,  and  into  the  offices  and  emoluments 
of  which,  by  the  express  words  of  the  charter,, 
as  well  as  by  the  evident  spirit  of  the  institu- 
tion, no  landmen  are  to  be  admitted. 

His  Duty — in  the  treble  capacity  of  lieu- 
tenant governor,  director,  and  a  general 
governor,  is,  in  conjunction  with  othen^ 
to  watch  over  the  internal  economy  of  this 
sacred  charity,  to  see  that  the  setting 
days  of  these  brave  and  godlike  men  are 
spent  in  comfort  and  peace,  and  that  the 
ample  revenues,  appropriated  by  this  ge- 
nerous nation  to  their  support,  are  not  per- 
verted and  misapplied. 

He  has  written,  that  this  benevolent 
and  politic  institution  has  degenerated  from 
the  system  established  by  its  wise  and  muni- 
ficent founders ;  that  its  ^oveniors  consist 
indeed  of  a  great  number  oi  illustrious  names 
and  reverend  characters,  but  whose  different 
labours  and  destinations  in  the  most  import- 
ant offices  of  civil  life  rendered  a  deputation 
indispensably  necessary  for  the  ordinary  so- 
vemraent  oi  the  Hospital ;  that  the  difficiuty 
of  convening  this  splendid  corporation  had 
gradually  brought  the  management  of  its  af- 
fairs more  particularly  under  the  direction  of 
the  Admiralty  ;  that  a  new  charter  has  been 
surreptitiously  obtained,  in  repugnance  to  the 
origmal  institution,  which  enlarges  and  con- 
firms that  dependence ;  that  the  present  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty  (who  lor  reasons 
sufficiently  obvious,  does  not  appear  pubhdy 
in  this  prosecution)  has,  to  serve  the  base  mi 


53]  ruptcting  the  Royal  Hospital  at  GrefnmcL  A.  D.  1?78« 


m 


watibless  purposes  of  corruption,  InUoduced 
his  prastitutea  freeholders  of  Huntingdon  into 
fbces  destined  for  the  honest  freeholders  of 
the  seas  ;  that  these  men  (among  whom  are 
the  prosecutors^  are  not  only  landmen,  in 
ddjance  of  the  charter,  and  wholly  dependent 
op  the  Admiralty  in  their  views  and  situar 
tioQs,  but,  to  the  reproach  of  all  order  and 
goTemmenty  are  suitered  to  act  as  directors 
and  officers  of  Greenwich,  whdle  they  t/ienh- 
«Aw»hold  the  very  subordinate  offices,  th^ 
cmUrol  of  which  is  the  object  of  that  direo- 
tion ;  and  inferring  from  thence  (as  a  general 
proposition)  that  men  in  such  situations  can- 
no^  as  human  nature  is  am^itituted,  act  with 
that  freedom  and  singleness  which  their  duty 
requires,  he  justly  attributes  to  these  causes 
the  grievances  which  his  gallant  brethren 
actuuly  suffer,  and  wbich  are  the  generous 
subject  of  his  complaint. 

He  has  written  this,  my  lord,  not  to  'the 
jMie  at  large,  which  has  no  jurisdiction 
lo  reform  the  abuses  he  aimplains  of^  but  tp 
tkote  imfy  whose  express  duty  it  is  to  hear  ajod 
to  correct  them,  and  I  trust  they  wUl  be 
solemnly  heard  and  corrected.  He  has  not 
pcBLiSH£o,  but  only  distributed  his  boolc 
among  the  governors,  to  produce  inquiry  aod 
not  to  calumniate. 

The  motive  which  ikduced  him  to  write, 
and  to  which  I  shall  by  and  by  claim  the 
more  particular  attention  of  the  Court,  yrs» 
to  prooiice  reformation ;  a  reformation  which 
it  was  his  most  pointed  dutv^to  attempt, 
which  he  has  laboured  with  the  most  ino^ 
fatigable  zeal  to  accomplish,  and  against 
which  every  other  channel  was  blocked  up. 

My  lord,  I  will  point  to  the  proof  of  all 
this :  I  will  show  your  lordship  that  it  was 
his  duty  lo  investigate ;  that  the  abuses. he 
has  investigated  do  really  exbt,  and  arise 
from  the  ascribed  causes ;  that  he  has  pre- 
sented them  to  a  competent  jurisdiction,  and 
not  to  the  public ;  and  that  he  was  under  the 
indispensable  necessity  of  taking  thie  s^ep  l^e 
has  done  to  save  Greenwich  Hospital  nom 
ruin. 

Your  lordship  will  observe,  by  this  suImU- 
vision,  that  I  ao  not  wbh  to  form  a  specious 
desultory  defence:  'because,  feeling  that 
every  link  of  such  sub-division  will  in  the  in- 
vestigiatioa  produce  both  law  and  fact  in  my 
&vour^  I  have  spread  tlie  subject  open  be- 
fine  the  eye  of  the  Court,  and  invite  the 
strictest  scrutiny.  Your  lordship  will  lik^ 
wise  observe  by  this  arrangement,  that  I 
mean  to  confine  myself  to  the  general  linf  s 
4)f  his  delence :  the  various  affidavits  have 
already  been  so  s^bly  and  judiciously  com- 
mented on  by  my  learned  l^wiers,  to  whom  I 
am  sure  captain  Baillie  must  ever  feel  him- 
self under  the  highest  obligations,  that  poy 
duty  has  become  narrowed  to  the  province 
ttf  throwing  his  defence  within  the  closest 
corooassy  tmit  it  may  leave  a  dibtiAct  and  de- 
dded  impression. 

.4nd  lirst,  as  |p  iU  beii\g  bis  Pftrtigifuhr 


duty  to  enquire  into  the  different  matter^ 
which  are  the  subject  of  his  publication,  and 
of  the  prosecutors'  complaint :  I  believe,  my 
lords,  I  need  say  little  on  this  head  to  con^* 
vince  your  lordships,  who  are  vourselves  go« 
vernors  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  that  thede** 
fcndant,  in  the  double  capacity  of  lieutenanl 

governor  and  director,  is  most  indispensably 
ound  to  superintend  ever^  thing  that  can 
affect  the  prosperity  of  the  institution,  either 
in  internal  economy,  or  appropriation  of  re^' 
venue ;  but  I  cannot  help  reading  two  copies 
of  letters  from  the  Admiralty  m  the  year 
1742  ;  I  read  tliem  from  the  publication,  be-^ 
cause  their  authenticity  is  sworn  to  by  the 
defendant  in  his  affidavit ;  and  I  read  them 
to  show  the  sense  of  that  board  with  regard 
to  the  right  of  enquiry  and  complaint  in  all 
officers  M  the  Hospital,  even  in  the  depart* 
ments  not  allotted  to  them  by  their  coznmis-' 
sions. 

"To  Sir  John  Jevninos,  Governor  of  Green^ 

wich  Hospital. 

"  Admiralty-office,  April  19, 1748. 
^*  Sir ;  The  directors  of  Greenwich  Hospi^ 
tal  having  acquainted  my  lords  commis* 
sioners  of  the  Admiralty,  upon  complaint 
made  to  them,  that  the  men  have  been  de^ 
frauded  of  part  of  their  just  allowance  of 
broth  and  pease-soup,  by  the  smallnessof  the 
pewter-disbes,  which  in  their  opinion  have 
been  artificially  beaten  fiat,  ana  that  there 
are  other  frauds  and  abuses  attending  this 
affiiir,  to  the  prejudice  of  the  j)oor  men ;  lam 
commanded  by  their  lordships  to  desire  you 
to  call  the  officers  together  in  council,  and  t9' 
let  them  know,  that  their  lordships  think 
them  very  blameable  (or  suffering,  such  abuses 
to  be  practised,  which  could  not  have  been 
done  without  their  extre^me  indolence  in  ^ot 
looking  into  the  affairs  of  tli^s  Hospital :  tha^ 
their  own  establishment  in  Xhp  Hospital  is 
for  the  care  and  protection  pf  the  poor  men, 
and  that  it  is  their  duty  to  lopk  daily  into 
every  thing,  and  to  reme4y  every  disorder; 
and  not  to  discharge  themselves  hy  throwing 
it  upon  the  under  officers  and  servaniU;  an) 
that  their  lordships  h&ug  (de^erjcnine4  ^  89 
to  the  bottom  of  this  complaint,  do  charge 
them  to  find  out  and  Uifyvm  them  at  whose 
door  the  fraud  ought  tp  he  laidy  that  their 
lordships  ma^  five  such  directions  heretfi  aa 
they  shall  judge  proper.— I  am.  Sir,  your 
most  obedient  serva^ty        Tho.  Corbxt/' 

''  Admiralty-oAce,  Way  7tb,  1742. 

"  Sir ;  M^  lords  commissioners  of  the  Ad-r 
miraliy  having  referred  to  the  directors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  the  report  made  by  your-< 
self  and  officers  of  the  saia  Hospital  in  cpun^ 
cil,  dated  the  S3d  jpast,  relating  to  the  ^t- 
ness  of  the  pewter  dishes  made  use  of  to  ho^i^ 
the  broth  and  pease-potU^e  served  out  to  the 
pensioners ;  the  said  directors  have  returned 
nither  a  reply,  a  copy  pf  which  I  am  ordere4 
to  send  you  f»clQS^4 »  ^^y  J^^^^  h^xiw  m^ 

D 


35] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Cau  ofCapiain  Thomas  BaUUe,  [36 


forth  s  fact  which  has  a  very  fraudulent 
appearance,  and  H  imports  little  bv  what 
means  the  dishes  became  shallow ;  but  if  it 
be  true,  what  they  assert,  that  the  dishes 
hold  but  little  more  than  half  the  quantity 
they  ought  to  do,  the  poor  men  must  have 
been  greatly  injured ;  and  the  allegations  in 
the  omcers*  report,  that  the  pensioners  have 
made  no  complaint,  does  rather  aggravate 
their  conduct,  m  suffering  the  men's  patience 
to  be  so  lon^  imposed  upon. 

*'  My  lords  commissioners  of  the  Admi^ 
ralty  do  command  me  to  express  myself  in 
such  a  manner  as  may  show  their  wrath  and 
displeasure  at  such  a  proceeding.  You  will 
please  to  communicate  this  to  the  officers  of 
the  house  in  council. 

' "  Their  lordships  do  very  well  know  that 
the  directors  have  no  power  but  in  the  mar 
nagement  of  the  revenue  and  estates  of  the 
Hospital,  and  in  carrying  on  the  works  of  the 
building,  nor  did  thev  assume  any  on  this 
occasion;  but  their  lordships  shall  always 
take  well  of  them  any  informations,  that 
tend  to  rectify  any  mistakes  or  omissions 
whatsoever,  concerning  the  state  of  the  Hos- 
pital.— I  am,  Sir,  your  most  obedient  servant, 

**  Tao.  Corbet." 

^  To  Sir  John  Jennings,  Governor 
of  Greenwich  Hospital." 

I^rom  these  passages  it  is  plain,  that  the  < 
Admiralty  then  was  sensible  of  the  danger  of 
abuses  in  so  extensive  an  institution,  that  it 
encouraged  complaints  from  all  Quarters,  and 
instantly  redressed  them ;  for  although  cor- 
ruption was  not  then  an  infant,  yet  the  idea 
of  making  a  job  of  Greenwich  Hospital  never 
entered  her  head ;  and  indeed  if  it  had,  she 
could  hardly  have  found  at  that  time  of  day, 
a  man  with  a  heart  callous  enough  to  consent 
to  such  a  scheme,  or  with  foreh^d  enough  to 
carry  it  into  public  execution. 

Secondly^  my  lord,  that  the  abuses  he  has 
investigated  do  in  truth  exist,  and  arise  from 
the  ascribed  causes. 

And,  at  the  word  tbuth,  I  must  pause  a 
little  to  consider,  how  far  it  is  a  defence  on  a 
rule  of  thb  kind,  and  what  evidence  of  the 
falsehood  of  the  supposed  libel  the  Court 
expects  from  prosecutors,  before^  it  will 
allow  the  informatidh  to  be  filed,  even  where 
110  affidavits  are  produced  by  the  defendant 
in  his  exculpation. 

That  a  libel  upon  an  individual  is  not  the 
less  so  for  being  true,  I  do  not,  under  certain 
reitrictionsy  denv  to  be  law ;  nor  is  it  neces- 
sary for  roe  to  deny  it,  because  this  is  not  a 
complaint  in  the  oaniKART  course  op  law, 
but  an  application  to  Uie  Court  to  exert  an 

XCCENTRIC,  EXTRAORDINARY,  VOLUNTARY  JU- 
RISDICTION,  BEYOND   THE  ORDINARY     COURSE 

OP  JUSTICE ;— a  jurisdiction,  which  I  am  au- 
thorized from  the  best  authority  to  say,  this 
Court  'will  not  exercise,  unless  the  prose- 
cutors come  PURE  AND  UNPOLLUTED ;  deny- 
ing upon  oath  the  tn^  of  evsiy  word  and 


sentence  which  they  complain  of  as  injuriouse 
for  although,  in  common  cases,  the  matter 
may  be  not  the  less  libellous,  because  true, 
yet  the  Court  will  not  interfere  by  informa- 
tion, for  guilty  or  even  equivocal  characters, 
but  will  leave  them  to  its  ordinary  process. 
If  the  Court  does  not  see  palpable  malice 
and  FALSEHOOD  on  the  part  of  the  defendant, 
and  clear  innocence  on  the  part  of  the  prose^ 
cutor.  it  will  not  stir; — it  will  say,  This  may 
be  a  libel ;— this  may  deserve  punishment; 
—but  go  to  a  grand  jury,  or  bring  your  ac- 
tions: all  men  are  equally  entitled  to  the 
protection  of  the  laws,  but  all  men  are  not 
equally  entitled  to  an  extraordinary  interpo- 
sition and  protection,  beyond  the  common 
distributive  forms  of  justice. 

This  is  the  true  constitutional  doctrine  of 
informations,  and  made  a  strong  impression 
upon  me,  when  delivered  by  your  lordship 
in  this  court ;  the  occasion  which  produced 
it  was  of  little  consequence,  but  the  principle 
was  important.  It  was  an  information  moved 
for  by  general  Plasto  against  the  printer  of 
the  Westminster  Gazette,  for  a  libel  publish- 
ed in  his  paper,  charging  that  gentleman, 
among  other  things,  with  having  been  tried 
at  the  Old  Bailey  for  a  felony.  The  prose- 
cutor^s  affidavit  denied  the  charges  generally 
as  foul,  scandalous,  and  false ;  hut  did  not 
traverse  the  aspersion  I  have  just  mentioned 
a$  a  tubstantive  fact ;  upon  which  your  lord* 
ship  told  the  counsel  [Mr.  Dunning],  who 
was  too  learned  to  argue  against  the  objec- 
tion^  that  the  affidavit  was  defective  in  that 
particular,  and  should  be  amended  before  the 
Court  would  even  grant  a  nilc  to  show 
cause:  for  although  such  general  denial 
would  be  sufficient  where  the  libellous  mat- 
ter consisted  of  scurrility,  insinuation,  and 
GENERAL  abusc,  which  is  no  otherwise  tra- 
versable than  by  innuendoes  of  the  import  of 
the  scandal,  and  a  denial  of  the  truth  of  it, 
yet  that  when  a  libel  consisted  of  direct 

AND   POSITIVE    PACTS   AS    CHARGES,  the  CoUTt 

required  substantive  travertet  cf  tuch  facti 
in  the  affidavit,  before  it  would' interpose  to 
take  the  matter  from  the  cognizance  of  a 
grand  jury. 

This  is  the  law  of  informations^  and  by 
this  touchstone  I  will  try  the  prosecutors' 
affidavits,  to  show  that  they  will  fall  of 
themselves,  even  witliout  that  body  of  evi- 
dence, with  which  I  can  in  a  moment  over- 
whelm them. 

If  the  defendant  be  guilty  of  anv  crime  at  all, 
it  is  for  writing  tht^  book  :  and  the  conclusion 
of  his  guilt  or  innocence  must  consequently 
depend  on  the  scope  and  desijgn  of  it,  the  gene- 
ral truth  of  it,  and  the  necessity  for  writing  it ; 
and  this  conclusion  can  no  otherwise  be  drawn^ 
than  by  taking  the  whole  of  it  together. 
Your  lordships  will  not  shut  your  eyes,  as 
these  prosecutors  expect,  to  the  design  and 
general  truth  of  the  book,  and  eo  entirely 
upon  the  intulaied  passages^  cuUea  out,  and 
set  heada  mi  p^iatf  inihoir  wratcM  aSMar 


37]        reiftedittg  the  Royal  HaspUal  ai  Greentmch.         A.  D.  177S. 


[3k 


nt%  without  context,  or  even  ao  attempt  to 

onnddJe  or  explain  their  sense,  or  bearing  on 

the  subject;  for,  my  lord,  they  have  altoge- 

Ifaer  omitted  to  traverse  the  scandalous  facts 

iboDselvesy  and  have  bnlv  laid  hold  of  those 

warm  animadversions,  which  the  recital  of 

them  naturally  produced  in  the  mind  of  an 

hooest,  zealous  man,  and  which,  besides,  are 

ID  many  places  only  conclusions  drawn  from 

&cts  as  general  propositions,  and  not  asper- 

sons  on  them  as  mdividuaJs.    And  where 

the  fzcts  do  rome  home  to  them  as  charges, 

9ot  one  of  them  is  denied  by  the  prosecutors.     I 

astert,  umlordy  that  in  the  director^  whole  qffi- 

dsvit  (which  I  have  read  repeatedly,  and  with 

the  greatest  attention)  there  is  not  any  one 

fid  mentioned  by  the  defendant  which  is  sulh 

MsMtisUy  denied  ;  and  even  when  five  or  six 

strong  and  pointed  charges  are  tacked  to  each 

other,  to  avoid' meeting  naked  truth  in  the 

teeth,  they  are  not  even  contradicted  by  the 

lump,  but  a  general  innuendo  is  pinned  to 

them  all;— a  mere  illusory  averment,  that 

the  &cts  mean  to  criminate  them,  and  that 

they  are  not  criminal;  but  the  facts  them- 

SELVES      REMAIIf      UN  ATTEMPTED      AllD      UN- 
TOrCflED. 

Thu&  my  lord,  afler  reciting  in  their  afB- 
daTit  the  charge  of  their  shameful  miscon- 
duct, in  renewing  the  contract  with  the  Hun- 
tingdon butchers,  who  had  just  compounded 
the  penalties  incurred  by  the  breach  of  a 
fermer  contract,  and  in  that  breach  of  con- 
tact, the  breach  of  every  principle  of  huma- 
nity, as  well  as  of  honesty ;  and  the  charge 
of  putting  improper  objects  of  charity  into 
the  Hospital,  while  the  lamilies  of  poor  pen- 
sioners were  excluded  and  starving ; — and  of 
screening  delinquents  from  inquiry  and  pu- 
nishment in  a  pointed  and  particular  instance, 
and  therefore  traversable  as  a  substantive /act ; 
yet  not  only  there  is  no  such  traverse,  bu^ 
though  all  these  matters  are  huddled  toge- 
ther m  a  mass,  there  is  not  even'  a  general 
denial;  but  one  loose  innuendo,  that  the 
facts  in  the  publication  are  stated  with  an 
intention  of  criminating  the  prosecutors,  and 
that,  as  far  as  they  tend  to  criminate  them, 
^ey  are  false. 

Will  this  meet  the  doctrine  laid  down  by 
your  lordship  in  the  case  of  general  Plasto  ? 
--Who  can  teU  what  they  mean  by  criminal 
lity?— Perhans  thev  think  neglect  of  duty 
not  criminal,— perhaps  they  think  corrupt 
Krvility  to  a  patron  not  criminal ;  and  that 
if  they  do  not  actively  promote  abuses,  the 
winking  at  them  is  not  crmiinal.  But  I  appeal 
to  the  Court,  whether  the  directors' whole 
uBdavit  is  not  a  cautious  composition  to 
svoid  downright  perjury,  and  yet  a  glaring 
ahsurdity  on  the  face  of  it ;  for  since  the  facts 
«w  not  traversed,  the  Court  must  intend 
them  to  exist ;  and  if  they  do  exist,  they  can- 
i»t  but  be  criminal.  Tlie  very  existence  of 
wch  abuses,  in  itself  criminates  those,  whose 
Jpos  are  to  prevent  them  from  existing. 

Voder  the  shelter  of  9uch  qualifications  of 


guilt,  no  man  in  trust  could  ever  be  crimi- 
nated. But  at  all  events,  my  lord,  since  they 
seem  to  think  that  the  facts  may  exist  with-> 
out  their  criminality, — be  it  so :  the  defers 
dant  then  does  not  wish  to  criminate  them ; 
he  wishes  only  for  effectual  inquiry  and  in- 
formation, that  there  may  be  no  longer  any 
crimes,  and  consequently  no  criminality.  But 
he  trusts,  in  the  mean  time,  and  I  likewise 
trust,  that,  while  these  facts  do  exist,  the 
Court  will  at  least  desire  the  prosecutors  to 
clear  themselves  before  the  general  council 
of  governors,  to  whom  the  writing  is  ad- 
dressed, and  not  before  any  packed  committee 
of  directors  appointed  by  a  noble  lord,  and 
then  come  back  to  the  Court  acquitted  of  all 
criminality,  or,  according  to  the  technical 
phrase,  with  clean  hands^  Tor  protection. 

^  Such  are  the  merits  of  the  affidavits  exhi- 
bited by  the  directors ;  and  the  affidavits  of 
the  other  persons  are,  without  distinction, 
subject  to  tne  same  observations.  They  are 
maae  up  either  of  feneral  propositions,  con- 
verted into  eha(i;es  by  ridiculous  innuendoes, 
or  else  of  strings  of  distinct  disjointed  facts 
tied  together,  and  explained  by  one  general 
averment ;  and  after  all — ^the  scandal,  such 
as  their  arbitrary  interpretation  makes  it,  is 
still  only  denied  with  the  old  Jesuitical  quali- 
fication of  criminality,— M«  facts  themselves 
remaining  untraversedj  and  even  untouched. 

They  are,  indeed,  every  way  worthy  of  their 
authors ; — of  Mr.  God  by,  the  good  steward, 
who,  notwithstanding  the  remonstrances  of 
the  captain  of  the  week,  received  for  the  pen- 
sioners such  food  as  would  be  rejected  by  the 
idle  vagrant  poor,  and  endeavoured  to  tamper 
with  the  cook  to  conceal  it ;  and  of  Mr.  Ihhet- 
son,  who  converted  their  wards  into  apart- 
ments for  himself,  and  the  clerks  of  clerks^  in 
the  endless  subonlination  of  idleness; — a 
wretch  who  has  dared,  with  brutal  inhumanity, 
to  strike  those  aged  men,  who  in  their  youth 
would  have  blasted  him  with  a  look.  As  to 
Mr.  Stuart  and  Mr.  Mylne,  Uiough  I  think 
them  reprehensible  for  joining  in  this  prosecu- 
tion, yet  they  are  certainly  respectable  men, 
and  not  at  all  on  a  level  with  the  rest,  nor 
has  the  defendant  so  reduced  them.  These 
two  therefore  liave  in  fact  no  cause  of  com- 
plaint, and  Heaven  knows,  the  others  have 
no  title  to  complain. 

In  this  enumeration^  of  delinquents,  the 
Rev.  Mr.  Cooke  looks  round,*  as  if  he 
thought  I  had  forgottcft  him.  lie  is  mis- 
taken ;— I  well  remembered  him  :  but  his  in- 
famy is  worn  threadbare : ,  Mr.  Murphy  has 
already  treated  him  with  that  ridicule,  which 
his  folly^  and  Mr.  Peckham  with  that  invec- 
tive, which  his  wickedness  deserves. — I  shall 

*  Ilia  pMMgo  it  uAmUA  by  the  nUaterly  Bdin- 
boq^  Reinewer  "  with  a  view  to  ihew,  that  the  coa- 
rage  which  marked  Lord  Enkijie*s  profBaaiooal  life 
was  not  aoqoired  after  the  succeM  which  rendered  it 
a  ttfe  and  a  cheap  rirtae  ;  bat,  being  natorally  in- 
herent in  the  nan,  was  displayed  at  a  moment  whea 
attended  with  ths  «oit  fonuidable  riihs." 


39] 


18  GEORGE  IIL 


I%e 


iherefore  forbear  to  taint  the  ear  of  the  Court 
further  with  his  name;— a  name  which 
would  bring  dishonour  upon  his  country  and 
its  religion,  if  human  nature  were  not  hap- 

Sily  compelled  to  bear  the  greater  part  of  the 
isgrace,  and  to  share  it  amongst  mankind. 
But  these  observations,  my  lord,  are  solely 
confined  to  the  prosecutors'  affidavits,  and 
would,  I  think,  be  fatal  to  them,  even  if  they 
stood  uncontroverted.  But  what  will  the 
Court  say,  when  ours  are  opposed  to  them, 
where  the  truth  of  every  part  is  sworn  to  by 
the  defendant  ?— What  will  the  Court  say  to 
the  collateral  circumstances  in'  support  of 
them,  where  every  material  charge  against 
the  prosecutors  is  confirmed  ? — What  will  it 
say  to  the  affidavit  that  has  been  made,  that 
no  man  can  come  safely  to  support  this  in- 
jured officer  ?— that  men  have  teen  deprived 
of  their  places,  and  exposed  to  beggary  and 
ruin,  merely  for  giving  evidence  of  aouses, 
which  have  already  by  bis  exertions  been 
proved  before  your  lordship  at  Guildhall, 
whilst  he  himself  has  been  luspended  as  a 
beacon  for  prudence  to  stand'ftloof  from ;  so 
that  in  this  unconstitutional  mode  of  trial, 
where  the  law  will  not  lend  its  process  to 
bring  in  truth  by  force^  he  might  stand  un- 
protected by  the  voluntary  oaths  of  the  only 
persons  who  could  witness  for  him*?  His 
character  has,  indeed,  in  some  measure,  broke 
through  all  this  malice :  the  love  and  vene- 
ration which  his  honest  zeal  has  justly 
cfcated,  have  enabled  him  to  produce  the 

J)roofs  which  are  filed  in  court;  but  many 
lave  hung  back,  and  one  withdrew  his  affi- 
davit, avowedly  from  the  dread  of  persecution, 
even  after  it  was  sworn  in  court.  Surely,  my 
lord,  this  evidence  of  malice  in  the  leading 
powers  of  the  Hospital  would  alone  be  suffi- 
cient to  destroy  their  testimony,  even  when 
swearing  collaterally  to  facts,  m  which  they 
were  not  themselves  interested  ;-^bow  much 
more  when  they  come  as  prosecutors,  stimu- 
lated by  resentment,  and  with  the  hope  of 
covering  their  patron's  misdemeanours  and 
their  own,  by  turning  the  tables  on  the  de- 
fendant, and  prosecutmg  him  criminally,  to 
stifle  all  necessary  inquiry  into  the  subject  of 
bis  complaints  ? 

lieutenant  Gordon,  the  first  lieutenant  of 
the  Hospital^  and  the  oldest  officer  in  the 
navy ;  lieutenant  William  Lefevre ;  lieute- 
nant Charles  Lefevre.  his  son;  Alexander 
Moore ;  lieutenant  William  Ansell ;  and  cap- 
tain Allright,  have  all  positively  sworn,  that 
a  faction  of  Luidmen  subsists  in  the  Hospital, 
a&d  that  they  do  in  their  consciences  beUeve, 
that  the  defendant  drew  upon  himself  the  re- 
sentment of  the  prosecutors,  from  his  activity 
in  correcting  this  enormous  abuse,  and  from 

*  On  the  tria)  of  a  oanse,  evtrj  person  acquainted 
xrith  an\  iacl  is  bound,  onder  pain  of  6ne  and  iiiipri- 
sonmotit,  to  attend  on  a  subpoena  to  give  evidence 
before  the  court  and  jury  ;  but  there  is  do  process 
|u  compel  any  man  to  make  aa  affidarit  befoiip  tbe 
$ouxU^Orig,  Ed. 


Case  of  Captain  Thomas  Baillie,  [<iO 

his  havme  restored  the  wards,  that  bad  b«en 
eruelly  taSen  away  firom  the  poor  old  men  : 
that  on  that  just  occasion  the  whole  body  of 
the  pensioners  surrounded  the  apartments  of 
their  governor,  to  testify  their  gratitude  with, 
acclamations,  which  sailors  never  bestow  but 
on  men  who  deserve  them.  This  simple  and 
hpnest  tribute  was  the  si^al  for  all  that  has 
followed;   the  leader  or  these  unfortunate 

Seople  was  turned  out  of  office ;  and  the  a^- 
avit  of  Charles  Smith  is  filed  in  court,  which, 
I  thank  my  God,  I  have  not  been  able  to 
read  without  tears ;— how,  indeed,  could  any 
man,  when  he  swears,  that,  for  this  cause - 
alone,  his  place  was  taken  from  him ; — that 
he  received  his  dismission  when  languishing 
with  sickness  in  the  infirmary,  the  conse* 
quence  of  which  was,  that  his  unfortunate 
wife,  and  several  of  his  helpless,  innocent 
children  died  in  want  and  misery;— the  wo- 
man  ACTUALLY    EXPIRING   AT    THE    GATES   OP 

THE  Hospital  !  That  such  wretches  should 
escape  chains  and  a  dungeon,  is  a  reproach 
to  humanity,  and  to  all  order  and  govern- 
ment ;  but  that  they  should  become  prose- 
cutors, is  a  degree  of  effirontery  that  would 
not  be  believed  by  any  man,  who  did  not  ac- 
custom himself  to  observe  the  shameless 
scenes,  which  the  monstrous  age  we  live  in 
is  every  day  producing. 

I  come  now,  itty  lord,  to  consider  to  whom 
HE  has  written. — ^This  book  is  not  pur- 
LiSHED. — It  was  not  printed  for  sale,  but  for 
the  more  commodious  distribution  among 
the  many  persons  who  are  called  upon  in 
duty  to  examine  into  its  contents.  If  the  de- 
fendant had  written  it  to  calumniate,  he 
would  have  thrown  it  abroad  among  the  mul- 
titude :  but  he  swears  he  wrote  it  for  the 
attainment  of  reformation,  and  therefore 
confined  its  circulation  to  the  proper  channel, 
till  he  saw  it  was  received  as  a  libel,  and  then 
he  even  discontinued  that  distribution,  and 
only  shewed  it  to  his  counsel  to  consider  of 
a  defence; — and  no  better  defence  can  be 
made,  than  that  the  publication  was  so 
limited. 

My  lord,  a  man  cannot  be  guilty  of  a  libel, 
who  presents  grievances  before  a  competent 
jurisdiction,  although  the  facts  he  presents 
should  be  false ;  he  may  indeed  be  indicted 
for  a  malicious  prosecution,  and  even  there  a 
probable  cause  would  protect  him,  but  he 
can  by  no  construction  oe  considers  as  a  li- 
beller. 

The  case  of  Lake  and  King,  in  1st  Levinz, 
S40,  but  which  is  better  reported  in  1st  Saun- 
ders, is  directly  in  point ;  it  was  an  action 
for  printing  a  petition  to  the  members  of  a 
committee  of  parliament,  charging  the  plain- 
tiff with  gross  hAud  in  the  execution  of  his 
office ;  I  am  aware  that  it  was  an  action  on 
the  case,  and  not  a  criminal  prosecution; 
but  I  am  prepared  to  shew  your  lordship, 
that  the  precedent  on  that  account  makes 
the  stron^r  for  us.  The  truth  of  the  matter^ 
though  part  of  the  plea^  was  not  the  point  in 


41]        rnpeding  the  koyal  HotpHai  ol  Gneimch.        A.  D.  1778. 


C4S 


contest;  the  justification  was  the  presenting 
it  to  8  proper  jurisdiction,  and  printing  it,  as 
m  this  case,  for  more  Commodious  distribu- 
tion; and  it  was  first  of  all  resolved  by  the 
court,  that  the  delivery  of  the  petition  to  all 
tbe  members  of  the  committee  was  iustifi- 
sbie;— and  that  it  was  no  libel,  wheinerthe 
maUtr  contained  were  true  or  false,  it  bting 
ao  appeal  in  a  course  of  justice,  and  because 
the  parties,  to  whom  it  was  addressed,  had 
jnrifdiction  to  determine  the  matter:   that 
the  intention  of  the  law  in  prohibiting  libels 
ins  to  restrain  men  from  making  themselves 
tfaeir  own  judges,  instead  of  referring  the 
matter  to  those,  whom  the  constitution  had 
appointed  to  determine  it ;— and  that  to  ad- 
jodge  such  reference  to  be  a  libel,  would  dis- 
courage men  from  making  their   inquiries 
vith  that  freedom  and  readiness,  which  the 
hw  allows,  and  which  the  good  of  society 
lequires.    But  it  was  objected,  he  could  not 
justify  the  priktino  ;   for,  by  that  means,  it 
was  published  to  printers  and  composers ; 
but  It  was  answered,  and  resolved  oy  the 
whole  court,  that  the  printing,  with  intent  to 
distribute  them  among  the  members  of  the  com- 
iadfee,was  lesal ;  and  that  the  making  many 
eopics  by  clerKs,  would  have  made  the  matter 
more  pvmlic.    I  said,  my  lord,  that  this  being 
an  action  on  the  case,  and  not  an  indictment 
or  inforaiation,  noade  the  stronger  for  us :  and 
I  said  so,  because  the  action  on  the  case  is  to 
redress  the  party  in  damans,  for  the  injury 
be  has  sustamed  as  an  individual,  and  wnich 
be  has  a  rieht  to  recover,  unless  the  defendant 
can  shew  mat  the  matter  is  true,  or,  as  in  this 
case,  whether  true  or  fiailse,  that  it  is  an  ap- 
peal to  justice. — ^Now,  my  lord,  if  a  defen- 
dant's right  to  appeal  to  justice,  could^  in  the 
case  of  take  ana  King,  repel  a  plaintiff's  right 
to  damages,  although  he  was  actually  damni- 
fied by  me  appeal,  how  much  more  must  it 
lepel  a  criminal  prosecution,  which  can  be 
undertaken  only  for  the  sake  of  public  justice, 
when  the  law  says,  it  is  for  the  benefit  of  pub- 
fic  justice  to  make  such  appeal?    And  that 
case  went  to    protect  even  falsehood,  and 
where  the   defendant  was  not  particularly 
caDed  upon  in  duty  as  an  indiviaual  to  ani- 
madvert:—how  much  more  shall  it  protect 
w^bo  were  bound  to  enquire,  who  have 
wntten  nothing  but  truth^  and  who  have  ad- 
dressed what  we  have  wntten  to  a  competent 
jmiadiction? 
I  come  lastly,  my  lord,  to  the  motives 

WHICH  IVDrCED   Bill   TO    WRITE. 

,Thc  g|overnment  of  Greenwich  Hospital  is 
divided  mto  three  departments :  the  council ; 
the  diiectors ;  and  the  general  governors  : 
the  defiendant  is  a  member  of  every  one  of 
these,  and  therefore  his  duty  is  universal. 
Jie  CouTf  cii.  consists  of  the  officers,  whose 
dttU  it  is  to  regulate  the  internal  economy 
JM  disctptine  of  the  house,  the  Hospital 
wing  as  it  were  a  large  man  of  war,  and  the 
cwncil its  commanders;  and  therefore,  these 
"K&i  even  by  the  present  mutilated  charter, 


I  ought  all  to  be  seamen.  Secondly,  the  di- 
rectors,  whose  duty  is  -merely  to  coni^em 
themselves  with  the  appropriation  of  the  re- 
venue, in  Contracting  for  and  superintending 
supphes,  and  in  keeping  up  the  structure  m 
the  Hospital ;  and  lastly,  the  general  court  of 
governors,  Consisting  of  almost  every  man  in 
the  kingdom  with  a  sounding  name  of  office: 
a  mere  nullity,  on  the  members  of  which  no 
blame  of  neglect  can  possibly  be  laid ;  for  the 
'Hospital  might  as  well  have  been  placed 
under  the  tuition  of  the  fixed  stars,  as  under 
so  many  illustrious  persons,  in  different  and 
distant  departments.  From  the  council^ 
therefore,  appeals  and  complaints  formerly 
la^r  at  the  Admiralty,  the  directors  having 
quite  a  separate  duty ;  and,  as  I  have 
shown  the  Court,  the  Admiralty  encouraged 
complaints  of  abuses,  and  redressed  them. 
But  since  the  administration  of  the  present 
first  lord,  the  face  of  things  has  changed.  I 
trust  it  will  be  observed,  tnat  I  do  not  go  out 
of  the  affidavit  to  seek  to  calumniate :  my  re^ 
spcct  for  the  Court  would  prevent  me,  though 
my  respect  for  the  said  first  lord  might  not. 
But  the  very  foundation  of  my  client's  defence 
depending  on  this  matter,  I  must  take  the 
liberty  to  point  it  out  to  the  Court. 

The  Admiralty  having  placed  several  land- 
men in  the  offices  that  form  the  council,  a 
minority  is  oflen  artificially  secured  there ; 
and  when  abuses  are  too  flagrant  to  be  passed 
over  in  the  face  of  day,  they  carry  their  appeal 
to  the  directors,  instead  of  the  Admiralty, 
where,  from  the  very  nature  of  man,  in  a 
much  more  perfect  state  than  the  prosecu- 
tors, they  are  sure  to  be  rejected  or  slurred 
over ;  because  tnese  acting  directors  themselves 
are  not  only  under  the  same  influenoe  with 
the  complainants,  but  the  subjects  of  the  ap- 
peals are  most  frequently  the  fmits  of  their 
own  active  delinquencies,  or  at  least  the  con- 
sequence of  their  own  neglects.  By  this  ma- 
ncBuvre  the  Admiralty  is  secured  from  hear- 
ing complaints,  and  the  first  lord,  when  any" 
comes  as  formerly  from  an  individual,  answers 
with  a  perfect  composure  of  muscle,  that  it  it 
coram  nonjudice ;  it  does  not  come  thfoush 
the  directors.  The  defendant  positively 
swears  this  to  be  true ;  he  declares  that,  in 
the  course  of  these  meetings  of  the  council, 
and  of  appeals  to  the  directors,  he  has  been 
not  only  uniformly  over-ruled,  but  insulted  aa 
governor  in  the  execution  of  his  duty  ;  and 
the  truth  of  the  abuses  which  have  been  the 
subject  of  these  appeals,  as  well  as  the  insults 
I  nave  mentioned,  are  proved  by  whole 
volumes  of  affidavits  filed  m  court,  notwith- 
standing the  numbers  who  have  been  deterred 
by  persecution  from  standing  forth  as  wit- 
nesses. 

The  defendant  also  himself  solemnly  swears 
this  to  be  true.  He  swears,  that  his  heart  was 
big  with  the  distresses  of  his  brave  brethren, 
and  that  his  conscience  called  on  him  to  give 
them  vent ;  that  he  oflen  complained ;  that 
he  repeatedly  wrote  to^  and  waitedon  lord  $ai)d»> 


43J  18  GEORGB  HL         Tke 

wicb,  \vithout  any  effect,  or  prospect  of  effect; 
and  that  at  last,  wearied  with  fruitless  exer- 
tions, and  dis^sted  with  the  insblence  of 
^  corruption  in  the  Hospital,  which  hates  him 
for  his  honesty,  he  applied  to  be  sent,  with 
all  his  wounds  and  infirmities,  upon  actual 
service  again.  The  answer  he  received  is 
worthy  of  observation;  the  first  lord  told 
him,  in  derision,  that  it  would  be  the  same 
thing  every  where  else ;  that  he  would  see 
the  same  abuses  in  a  ship ;  and  I  do  in  my 
conscience  believe  he  spoKe  the  truth,  a$/ar 
as  depended  on  hinuelf. 

What  then  was  the  defendant  to  do  in  the 
treble  capacity  of  lieutenant  governor,  of  di- 
rector, and  of  general  governor  of  the  Hos- 
pital ?  My  lord,  there  was  no  alternative  but 
to  prepare,  as  he  did,  the  statement  of  the 
abuses  for  the  other  governors,  or  to  sit  silent, 
and  let  them  continue,  ^ad  he  chosen  the 
last,  he  might  have  been  caressed  by  the 
prosecutors,  and  still  have  continued  the  first 
inhabitant  of  a  palace,  with  an  easy  indepen- 
dent fortune.  But  he  preferred  the  dictates 
of  honour,  and  fulfilled  them  at  the  expence 
of  being  discarded,  after  forty  years  gallant 
service,  covered  with  wounds,  and  vers;ing  to 
old  a^e.  Yet  he  respected  the  laws  wnile  he 
fulfilled  his  duty ;  his  object  was  reformation, 
not  reproach :  he  preferred  a  complaint,  and 
stimulated  a  regular  inquiry,  but  suspended 
the  punishment  of  public  shame  till  the  guilt 
should  be  made  manifest  by  a  trial.  He  did 
not  therefore  publish,  as  their  affidavits  false- 
ly assert,  but  onl^  preferred  a  complaint  ^ 
distribution  of  copies  to  the  governors,  which  I 
have  shoMm  the  Court,  by  the  authority  of  a 
solemn  legal  decision,  is  not  a  libel. 

Such  my  lords,  is  the  Case,  The  defendant, 
not  a  disappointed  malicious  informer,  prying 
into  official  abuses,  because  without  office 
himself,  but  himself  a  man  in  ofBce ;  not 
troublesomely  inquisitive  into  other  men's 
departments,  but  conscientiously  correcting 
his  own ;  doing  it  pursuant  to  the  rules  of 
law,  and,  what  heightens  the  character,  doing 
it  at  ,the  risk  of  his  office,  from  which  the 
effrontery  of  power  has  already  suspended  him 
without  proof  of  his  guilt ;  a  conduct  not 
only  unjust  and  illiberal,,  but  highly  disre- 
spectful to  this  Court,  whose  judges  sit  in  the 
double  capacity  of  ministers  of  the  law,  and 
governors  of  this  sacred  and  abused  institu- 
tion. Indeed,  lord  Sandwich  has,  in  my  mind, 
acted  such  a  part  ♦  ♦  *  ♦  ♦ 
»         *         *         «««*« 

[Here,  Lord  Mansfield,  observing  the  Counsel 
heated  with  his  subject,  and  growing  personal  on  ** 
the  First  Lord  of  the  Admiralty,  told  him,  that 
Lor4,  Sandwich  was  not  before  the  Court,^ 

I  know,  that  he  is  not  formally  before  the 
Court,  but,  for  that  very  reason,  I  will  bring 
him  before  the  Court :  he  has  placed  these  men 
in  the  front  of  the  battle,  in  hopes  to  escape 
under  their  shelter,  but  I  will  not  join  m 
battle  with  them;  their  vioes^ though  screwed 


Case  tf  Captain  Thomas  Baittiet  [44 

up  to  the  highest  pitch  of  human  depravity, 
are  not  of  oignity  enough  to  vindicate  the 
combat  with  me,  I  will  drag  him  to  light, 
who  ia  the  dark  mover  behind  this  scene  of 
iniquity.  I  assert,  that  the  earl  of  Sandwich 
has  but  one  road  to  escape  out  of  this  business 
without  pollution  and  oisgrace:  and'M^  isy 
by  publicly  disavowing  the  acts  of  the  prose- 
cutors, and  restoring  captain  Baillie  to  his 
command.  If  he  does  this,  then  his  offence 
will  be  no  more  than  the  too  common  one  of 
having  suffered  his  own  personal  interest  to 
prevail  oyer  his  public  ctuty,  in  placing  his 
voters  in  the  Hospital.  But  if,  on  the  con- 
trary, he  continues  to  protect  the  prosecutors, 
in  spite  of  the  evidence  of  their  guilt,  which 
has  excited  the  abhorrence  of  the  numerous 
audience  that  crowd  this  Court ;  if  he  keeps 

THIS  INJURED  MAN  SUSPENDED,  OR  DARES  TO 
TURN  THAT  SUSPENSION  INTO  A  REMOVAL,  X 
SHALL  THEN  NOT  SCRUPLE  TO  DECLARE  HIM 
AN  ACCOMPLICE  IN  THEIR  GUILT,  A  SHAME- 
/.ESS  OPPRESSOR,  A  DISGRACE  TO  HIS  RANK, 
AND    A     TRAITOR    TO     HIS     TRUST.      But,    RS   I 

should  be  very  sorry  that  Uie  fortune  of  iny 
brave  and  honourable  friend  should  depends, 
either  upon  the  exercise  of  lord  Sandwich's 
virtues,  or  the  influence  of  his  fears,  I  do  most 
earnestly  entreat  the  Court  to  mark  the 
malignant  object  of  this  prosecution,  and  to 
defeat  it :  I  beseech  you,  my  lords,  to  ooiiaider 
that  even  by  discharging  the  rule,  and  with 
costs,  the  defendant  is  neither  protected  nor 
restored.  I  trust,  therefore,  your  lordships 
will  not  rest  satisfied  with  fulfilling  your  ju- 
dicial duty,  but,  as  the  strongest  evidence  of 
foul  abuses  has,  by  accident,  come  collaterally 
before  you^  that  you  will  protect  a  brave  and 
public-spirited  officer  from  the  persecution 
this  writing  has  brought  upon  him,  and  not 
suffer  so  dreadful  an  example  to  go  abroad 
into  the  world,  as  the  ruin  of  an  upright  man^ 
for  having  faithfiilly  discharged  his  duty. 

My  lords,  this  matter  is  of  the  last  import- 
ance. I  speak  not  as  an  advocate  alone — ^I 
speak  to  you  as  a  man — as  a  member  of  a 
state,  whose  very  existence  depends  upon  her 
NAVAL  STRENGTH.  If  R misgovcmmeut  wcre to 
fall  upon  Chelsea  Hospital,  to  the  ruin  and 
discouragement  of  our  army,  it  would  be  no 
doubt  to  t)e  lamented,  yet  I  should  not  think 
it  fatal;  but  if  our  fleets  are  to  be  crippled  bj 
the  baueful  influence  of  elections,  we  are 
LOST  indeed  !  If  the  seaman,  who,  while  he 
exposes  his  body  to  fatigues  and  dangers,  look- 
ing forward  to  Greenwich  as  an  asylum  for 
infirmity  and  old  age^  sees  the  gates  of  it 
blocked  up  by  corruption,  and  hears  the  riot 
and  mirth  of  luxunous  landmen  drowning 
the  groans  and  complaints  of  the  woundef 
helpless  companions  of  hb  glory,  he  will 
tempt  the  seas  no  more ;  the  Admiralty  may 
press  HIS  BODY,  indeed^  at  the  expence  of 
numanity  and  the  constitution,  but  they  can- 
not press  his  miiui-^they  cannot  press  the  he- 
roic ardour  of  a  British  sailor ;  and  instead  of 
a  fleet  to  cair^  terror  all  round  tha  globci  tho 


- 


I 

J 


45]  respecting  the  Royal  Hospital  at  OreentoicK         A,  D.  1778. 


£46 


Admindty  may  not  much  longer  be  able  to 
amuse  us,  with  even  the  peaceable  unsub- 
stantial pageant  of  a  review  * 

FiKE  AND  IMPRISON MENT  I—The  man  de- 
serves a  PALACE  instead  of  a  prison,  who  pre- 
vents the  palace,  built  by  the  public  bounty 
of  his  country,  from  being  converted  into  ^ 
dungeon,  and  who  sacrifices  his  own  security 
to  the  interests  of  humanity  and  virtue. 

And  now^  my  lord,  I  have  done ;  but  not 
without  thanking  your  lordship  for  the  very 
indulgent  attention  I  have  received,  though 
in  so  late  a  stage  of  this  business,  and  not- 
withstanding my  great  incapacity  and  inex- 
perience. I  resign  my  client  into  your  hands, 
and  I  resign  him  with  a  well-founded  confi- 
dence and  hope :  because  that  torrent  of  cor- 
ruption, whicn  has  unhappily  overwhelmed 
every  other  part  of  the  constitution,  is,  by  the 
bks&ing  of  Providence,  stopped  here  by  the 
sacred  mdependence  of  the  judges.  I  know 
that  your  lordships  will  determine  according 
to  law  ;  and,  therefore,  if  an  information 
should  be  suflered  to  be  filed,  I  shall  bow  to 
the  sentence,  and  shall  consider  this  merito- 
rious publication  to  be  indeed  an  offence 
aeainst  the  laws  of  this*  countiy ;  but  then  I 
sEali  not  scruple  to  say,  that  it  is  high  time 
lor  every  honest  man  to  remove  himself  from 
a  country,  in  which  he  can  no  longer  do  his 
duw  to  the  public  with  safety ;  where  cruelty 
and  inhumanity  are  suffered  to  impeach  vir- 
tue, and  where  vice  passes  through  a  court  of 
justice  unpunished  and  unreproved. 

Mr.  SoUeUor  General^  (leading  Counsel  for 
the  Prosecutors :) 

Please  your  lordship  to  favour  me  on  the 
part  of  the  proseaitors,  who  have  had  no  op- 
portunity whatsoever  of  answering  the  affi- 
davits, particularly  those  gainst  wnom,  if  I 
am  able  to  judfe  of  the  af&lavits  in  the  cur- 
sory manner  I  beard  them,  the  whole  attack 
is  levelled.  My  lord,  the  application  is  made 
to  your  lordship  by  people  m  public  offices, 
and  have  the  honour  of  executing  these  pub- 
lic trusts.  They  conceive  themselves  calum- 
niated by  this  paper,  which  I  shall  presume 
to  call  a  ubel — and  a  libel  it  is  in  every  sense 
of  the  law.  My  lord,  the  application  is 
against  a  person,  who  has  taken  upon  him- 
self to  state  to  your  lordshios  the  several  ser- 
vices he  has  been  in,  whicii  made  no  part  of 
the  business  before  the  court,  but  upon  that 
sabject  your  lordships  have  heard  much,  in 
this  motion  that  was  stated  by  Mr;  Baillie. 
It  is  stated,  the  directors  are  to  have  lOf.  a 
time  for  their  attendance,  but  I  contend  ^ere 
is  no  clause  in  the  charter,  nor  any  bye  laws, 
which  regulate  that  time ;  the  intimation  is, 
that  it  is  expected  they  will  all  attend  con- 
ilantly.  notwithstanding  which  there  are  se- 
veral directors  who  generally  constitute  a 
board,  for  which  they  receive  lOs.  as  a  gratuity. 

*  IWre  bad  joit  before  bMo  a  osTal  r«ricw  at 
PbrtMaoBlb.    OHjp.  Ed. 


I  did  not  hear  that  it  had  been  sworn  by  cap- 
tain BaiUie,  that  he,  as  a  member  of  this 
board,  has  not  as  constantly  as  any  one  re- 
ceived this  lOs.  a  day,  which  he  conceives  to 
be  totally  against  the  i^irit  of  the  charter; 
he  has  not  said  in  his  affidavit,  or  hinted,  it  is 
not  in  the  charter;  though  he  condemns  tht 
practice,  he  does  not  deny,  that  he  has  not 
most  regularly  accepted  of  xOs.  for  his  attend- 
ance.* Mr.  Baillie  making  one  of  this  board, 
is  of  opinion,  that  on  every  motion  (unless  it 
id  to  make  the  same  motion  he  wishes  to  have 
adopted,  and  which  does  not  succeed)  those 
that  constituted  the  board,  were  not  left  to 
decide  upon  it,  but  vote  by  directions  they 
received.  What  evidence  is  there  of  this, 
which  is  charged  imon  the  directors  of  tht 
board  ?  What  proof  nas  captain  Baillie  given, 
that  there  is  a  foundation  tor  that  imputation 
upon  them :  and  yet  they  very  wisely  slipped 
over  where  the  charge  in  the  first  part  of  the 
affidavit  began,  with  the  particulars  respecting 
one  person  only ;  but  here  is  a  direct  chalrge 
upon  every  member  of  this  board,  except  ivfr^ 
Baillie  himself,  that  in  eiving  their  judgment 
upon  the  deliberations  neld  by  that  board, 
they  went  by  directions  they  recdved  fiom 
othersy  and  every  vote  they  jgive,  b  not  a  vote 
that  in  conscience  thev  ought  to  give,  but  an 
implicit  obedience  to  the  dictates  of  somebody 
else.  Can  a  neater  imputation  be  thrown 
upon  any  boara,  authorized  to  act  upon  their 
own  judgment  ?  and  yet  this  is  a  direct  charge 
in  this  book  by  Mr.  Baillie,  w1m>  is  a  director. 
This  will  tend  to  shew^  whether  this  book  was 
meant  to  redress  grievances  or  not.  One 
g[reat  charge  too,  is,  there  are  landmen  in  this 
situation,  who  are  reprobated  by  the  very 
terms  of  the  chiurter.  Mr.  Murphy,  from  his 
knowledge,  said  he  knew  of  the  number  of 
officers  of  S7  landmen  and  only  32  sea  officers. 
With  respect  to  the  landmen  in  the  several 
deparfenentsofthis  charity,  there  is  and  even 
must  be  some,  if  they  have  no  other  persons 
qualified.  There  are  many  offices  which  musf 
be  the  particular  business  of  landmen,  as  their 
educations  enable  them  to  discharge  the  du- 
ties of  their  iVinctions,  which  is  absolutely  ne- 
cessary. But  Mr.  BailUe  thinks  the  descrip- 
tion is  that  they  should  be  seamen,  who  have, 
served  for  many  years,  or  have  lost  tiieir  limbs, 
that  they  are  the  proper  persons  to  execute 
this  office.  He  is  so  kind  as  to  say  the  clerk 
of  the  works  may  not  perhaps  be  a  scaring 
man.  And  also  the  surveyor,  who  is  to  do 
their  works,  and  make  the  estimates  of  theb: 
buildings,  to  phm  them,  and  to  propose  their 
contracts  ana  their  alterations,  trom  time  to 
time :  these  probably  may  be  landmen— «nd 
vet  these  offices  are  as  much  within  the  prohi- 
bition as  any  other.  Mr.  Mylne  is  supposed 
not  to  be  particularly  attacked  in  this  book,  as 

*  Gftptain  Bafllie  did  oerer  receive  hit  10«.  bat 
for  every  actaal  attendance :  what  he  haa  oompldncd 
of  is,  that  aeveral  of  the  directors  retire  as  soea  as 
their  aaaies  are  taken  devra,    Orig^  EtL 


47] 


18  GEORGE  IlL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUlie,  [48 


Mr.  Erskine  save,  but  in  general  he  has  mis» 
behaved  himselfy  and  therefore  he  wonders  he 
should  be  amongst  those  who  have  thought 
fit  to  complain  to  this  court.  There  are  o& 
cers  too  that  ai«  called  landmen,  mere  clerks 
in  office,  those  whose  duty  reqiure  them  to  be 
landmen— he  has  taken  the  clerks  in  office, 
and  Mr.  Mylne  and  others,  who  are  to  consti- 
tute the  number  stated ;  though  Mr.  Mylne 
may  not  be  a  particular  person  alluded  to,  yet 
he  may  be  of  the  number. 

Court,  1  don,'t  know  any  affidavit  that 
atates  it. 

Mr.  Solicitor  General,  I  have  not  seen  the 
affidavits:  your  lordship  knows, there  was 
such  a  noise  in  court  at  the  time  they  were 
read,  it  was  impossible  to  disUneuish  some 
parts  of  the  affiaavit.  I  believe  the  meaning 
of  the  affidavit  comprehends  all  these  men, 
who  from  their  several  fiinctions  in  the  Hos- 
pital must  be  of  the  same  description. 

My  lord,  the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke  is  ano- 
ther person,  who  is  the  first  chaplsdn  to  this 
Hospital,  who  has  suffered  so  very  much  in 
the  business,  Mr.  Erskine,  out  of  compassion 
to  him,  would  say  nothing  more  upon  the 
subject ;  but  from  the  ridicule  of  one  gentle- 
man, and  the  invective  of  another,  he  has  al- 
ready had  his  share  of  the  abuse.  As  to  the 
ridicule  or  invective,  if  any  answer  is  to  be 

f'lven,  it  is  to  be  left  to  Mr.  Cooke  himself, 
can  only  tnswer  to  those  particular  narts 
that  respect  his  duty  here,  and  the  subject 
matter  the  Court  is  to  enqun^  into/  Mr. 
Cooke  is  charged  in  thb  pamphlet  with  hav- 
ing purchased  a  seat  at  this  board,  and  with 
having  bargained  for  this  place  of  chaplain, 
under  the  sanction  of  the  first  lord  of  the  Ad- 
miralty. My  lord,  these  are  not  places  pur->- 
chasea ;  a  directorship  is  not  a  place  for  pur- 
chase ;  it  must  be  exercised,  at  least,  it  ought 
to  be  eicercised  by  persons  appointed,  upon 
the  consideration  of  the  abilities  aad  situa- 
tion of  the  person  who  can  or  cannot  attend 
the  duties  of  this  Hosmtal,  and  discfaare^ 
^em.  Though  I  don't  know  it,  at  least  it 
has  not  been  stated  by  the  counsel,  and,  I 
presume,  there  is  nothuig  in  the  affidavits  to 
prove  any  such  transaction  ever  happened,  as 
that  Mr.  Cooke  oorchased  a  seat  at  this 
board,  or  bargained  for  it  with  money. 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  My  Jord,  this  charge  is 
ix>t  denied  by  Mr.  Cooke  in  bis  affidavit 

Mr.  Solicitor  General.  But  it  is  said,  he  is 
an  unfit  person  to  apply  to  your  lordship. 
With  respect  to  Mr.  Cooke,  there  is  another 
objection  made  to  him,  wfatch  J  should  have 
thought  did  not  oome  within  the  qualifica- 
tions necessary,  by  the  tenns  of  the  charter : 
the  objection  is,  he  happens  to  be  a  Hunting- 
donshire man  and  a  landman.  And  it  seems 
4h6  industrv  «f  Mr.  Bsdttie,  who  says,  there 
are  a  number  of  them  freeholders  or  bur- 
gesses of  Huntingdon,  has  found  out  that 
there  are  three  or  Tour  of  them  officers  of  the 
JSospitaL  I  do  not  know  the  affidavits  go 
ivther— that  tbey  ase  fiBeholders  or  m- 


gesses  of  the  county  of  Huntingdon.  Mr. 
Godby,  the  steward,  is  charged  with  having 
connived  with  a  Mr.  Melli«),  in  imposing 
upon  the  Hospital  ia  the  most  cruel  manner, 
respecting  the  poor  pensioners  within  it. 
That  the  Hospital,  in  the  most  hooourable 
way,  contracted  for  the  best,  provisions  they 
could  be  furnished  with,  their  intentions 
were  defeated  by  the  criminal  corrupt  con- 
nivance of  Godby  with  Mellisfa,  that  instead 
of  the  best  ox  beef  there  was  bull  beef,  and 
ram  mutton  instead  of  wether.  Then  there 
is  a  charge  against  somebody,  I  don't  know 
against  whom  it  is  meant,  for  compounding 
the  penalties ;  I  presume  the  court  of  direo- 
tors,  against  whom  the  charge  is  meant,  for 
compounding  this  offence  with  Mellish,  afler 
his  being  convicted  before  your  lordship  once 
in  an  action ;  afterwards  another  fu^tion  was 
brought,  and  he  would  again  have  been  oon- 
victed,  but  the  penalties  were  again  com- 
pounded, to  the  aissatisfaction  of  Mr.  Baillie 
and  others,  who  expected  he  would  be  se^ 
verely  punished.  With  respect  to  that  most 
criminal  connivance  of  Godby,  there  is  not, 
as  I  conceive,  the  least  evidence  U)  support  it 
in  truth,  I  speak  now  from  some:  knowledge 
I  have  upon  the  subject,  there  was  no  sudi 
imputation  of  a  cruiie  upon  him  at  the 
trial.* 

My  lord,  that  action  against  Mellish  mav 
be  in  the  memoiy  of  your  lordship,  which 
was  brought  by  the  order  of  the  court  of  di- 
rectors, wnen  a  verdict  was  found  against  him 
upon  the  several  breaches  assigned  m  that  ac- 
tion against  the  bond,  which  expresslv  obliged 
him  to  furnish  meat,  according  to  me  stipu- 
lated contract  and  prices.  It  appeared,  he 
had  mixed  it  with  oull-beef,  in  such  a  way, 
that  to  the  eye  it  would  deceive  m^ny  people 
and  judges,  he  had  contrived  it  in  so  tauou- 
lent  a.  manner,  but  the  truth  came  out ;  there 
wroae  complaints  all  was  not  rieht;  upon 
which  they  appointed  the  meat  to  oe  inspect-' 
ed,  and  particularly  examined  b^  boiling,  to 
detect  this  abuse ;  they  did  try  it,  in  conse^ 

Sience  of  which  there  was  a  conviction  of 
ellish ;  though  there  was  a  great  many  pe- 
nalties sued  for,  they  did  not  take  any  other 
but  what  they  thought  they  had  evidence  of; 
it  stood  in  your  lordship's  paper,  and  there 
was  some  talk  of  delaying  the  cause,  when  it 
was  mentioned  that  it  was  made  up. 

Since  that  action  was  brougjht,  there  has 
not  been  ^e  least  complaint,  and  the  last  ac- 
tion was  for  breaches  of  a  contract  that  had 
been  made  before  the  bringing  the  first  ao- 
tion;  since  the  action,  meat  has  been  delivered 
according  to  the  contract,  and  there  has  been 
no  ol^^ection. 

This  man  was  willing  to  sabmit  himself  to 
^he  /direclots,  and  at  last  it  ended,  upon  the 

*  Upon  the  Irid  it  wu  obmrrod  bj  the  jnAge, 
that  the  inpodtioii  could  not  havs  happened*  bat 
fronifas  iAOffanoe  sr  owmplisn  of  Dmb  xeottnag 
oAoork     Grig,  Ed, 


19]        mpeeiing  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenwich.         A.  D.  1778. 


[50 


man  making  a  submission^  which  was  a  mat- 
ter as  proper  for  the  ctirectors  to  animadvert 
iqN>ii,  as  any  men  whatsoever :  his  crime  was 
compounded,  upon  what  terms  Mr.  Baillie 
does  not  state,  nor  do  I  know  any  thing  more, 
than  that  it  was  stated  in  the  way  I  have  now 
sUted. 

One  great  charge  against  the  directors  was,, 
this  man  was  permitted  to  contract  with  them 
again.    Mt  lord,  firom  the  time  of  that  action, 
has  there  been  any  breach  of  contract  ?  Mr. 
BaiUie  does  not  pretend  there  was  any. 
Capt  Baillie.  An  hundred  times.    . 
Bfr.  Solicitor  General.  There  is  no  such 
thing  in  the  affidavit,  that  I  know  of;  the  mo- 
deration of  captain  BailUe  convinces  me  of 
nothins  but  that  the  directots  acted   upon 
neat  ^liberation  and  full  eitamination ;  but 
I  see  there  is  no  objection  stated  in  the  book, 
nor  is  there  any  affidavit  of  the  kind. 

It  b  said  there  was  no  advertisement  to  de- 
liver in  any  proposals,  I  did  not  hear  it  was 
sworn  in  the  affidavit;  but  the  contrary  is 
true,  and  that  Mellish  delivered  in  proposals 
more  reasonable  than  any  body  else. 

He  now  receives  a  certain  sum  from  the 
victualling  office,  and  they  have  found  his 
ability  b  such  he  can  perform  the  contracts 
within  the  time  and  can  serve  them  in  as  good 
a  way  as  any. 

It  is  certain  the  Hospital  brought  actions 
gainst  him,  and  foimd  him  guilty  of  frauds, 
but  there  is  no  pretence  to  say  it  since  this 
new  contract.  Mr.  Baillie  does  not  mention 
there  has  been  any  fraud  committed  siuce, 
and  yet  this  is  the  charge  upon  the  directors, 
that  th^  have  since  contracted  with  a  man 
that  had  been  convicted  of  fraud. 

F4very  body  conceives  from  a  charge  of  this 
kind,  from  the  manner  expressed  here,  Mel- 
lish  has  a  corrupt  influence  in  the  court  of  di- 
rectors, and  a  preference  before  every  bodv 
else,  in  the  maimer  stated  to  your  lordship  it 
is  shewing  the  directors  had  the  worst  of  mo- 
tives for  contracting  with  a  man  whom  they 
knew  would  be  guilty  of  frauds  upon  the  con- 
stitution of  the  Hospital,  or  else  it  meant  no- 
thing, and  Mr.  Baillie  would  not  have  insert- 
ed it  without  some  meaning  or  other. 

Then,  my  lord,  there  is  a  charge  upon  one 
EAis,  that  he  got  into  debt  with  Uie  Hospital 
to  the  amount  of  about  three  or  four  thousand 
pounds  of  the  charity  money,  and  he  ab- 
sconded with  part  of  their  money,  nothing  is 
more  true  than  that  it  g<^t  into  his  hands,  and 
he  absconded,  and  they  have  never  got  the 
money. 

And  what  is  a  more  serious  truth,  they 
have  no  chance  of  getting  their  money,  be- 
cause Ellb  at  the  time  he  was  found  out  in 
thb  business  was  not  worth  a  shilling ;  re- 
specting this  your  lordship  knows  that  the 
kpard  necessarily  advised  vFith  people  for  the 
direction  of  a  business  of  this  kind  of  the  law ; 
Md  in  tmth  it  appears  the  moment  his  detec- 
tion was  laid  before  a  proper  officer  to  prose- 
vdft,  Biiia  disapfieared. 
VOL  XXL 


And  this  is  charged  as  a  criminal  neglect 
upon  the  part  of  tne  directors,  in  sufferinjg 
Ellis-to  abscond  with  so  much  money  in  his 
hands,  or  which  he  had  embezzled ;  these  are 
charges  that  are  made  in  this  book  against 
the  directors  that  generally  constitute  the 
board. 

A  story  w^  told  you  of  one  Huggin,  Mr. 
Mylne's  labourer,  that  made  no  part  of  the 
business,  I  believe  it  was  not  sworn  to,  I  took 
it  from  Mr.  Murphy's  stating  some  action^ 
which  brought  about  a  dispute  of  a  nurse  in 
the  Hospital,  and  she  would  not  submit  her 
case  to  a  decision  of  the  council,  and  she  was 
turned  out,  and  they  add  as  a  fact  a  son  of  hers 
was  turned  out  too. 

Mr.  Baillie  has  not  assigned  the  reason  in 
his  affidavit  for  turning  out  the  son  of  thi;} 
woman,  if  he  had  I  should  have  had  no  obser- 
vation to  have  made  about  it,  but  I  have  en- 
quired about  this  business,  and  I  do  not  see  it 
makes  any  part  of  the  affidavits.  The  son 
was  turned  out  because  the  mother  had  not  a 
proper  certificate. 

The  mother  had  produced  a  forged  certi- 
ficate to  get  him  in,  this  was  in  truth  the  rea- 
son why  this  boy  was  turned  out  of  the  cha- 
rity, and  would  of  itself  be  a  sufficient  reason 
to  turn  the  woman  out  that  had  got  tl^e 
forged  certificate;  bqt  tliis  makes  no  part, 
that  I  know  of,  respecting  the  question  in  this 
case. 

As  that  was  mentioned  as  an  act  of  cruelty 
in  somebody  not  named,  I  thought  proper  "to 
take  so  much  notice  of  it  that  it  might  be  laid 
out  of  the  case. 

My  lord,  that  there  is  matter  of  libel  and 
calumny  contained  in  this  book,  not  one  of 
the  gentlemen  have  disputed,  that  a  reproach 
is  thrown  upon  the  body  of  directors^  not  one 
of  them  have  said  a  word  about. 

We  are  told  it  is  not  a  libel  though  it  were 
false— though  it  contained  calumny  of  the 
deepest  dye^  it  is  not  a  libel — Why  ?  because 
it  is  laid  before  proper  persons  in  the  ordinary 
course  of  redress,  oy  a  person  whose  duty  it 
was  to  represent  to  those  that  were  to  hear 
and  redress ;  that  was  the  position  laid  dovm ; 
the  genUemen  might  have  spared  themselves 
the  labour  of  citing  any  author  whatsoever. 

If  it  was  captain  Baillie's  dut^  to  represent 
any  abuses  or  supposed  abuses  of  this  charity, 
and  be  bad  made  that  representation  really 
and  with  intention  to  have  the  same  redress- 
ed, without  any  intention  to  calumniate  tht 
character  of  any  gentleman. 

The  gentlemen  might  have  contented 
themselves  with  that  proposition,  and  been 
sure  it  would  riot  be  opposed — Who  are  the 
officers  to  remove  them?  The  appointment  is 
in  the  Admiralty,  the  amotion  is  in  the  lords 
of  the  Admiralty  by  the  charter. 

Did  captain  Baillie  deliver  this  to  lord 
Sandwich  and  the  rest  of  the  lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty merely  with  a  view  to  have  an  ea« 
quiry  mto  the  abuses  he  is  supposed  to  have 
exposed? 

E 


61J 


18  GEORGE  III.  Tht  due  of  Captain  Thomat  BaUMe, 


[6i 


Did  he  deliver  it  to  the  lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty to  let  them  know  the  directors  voted 
by  some  iiifluenoe  or  other,  he  could  not  tell 
what?  Coy  Id  it  be  4ihe  purpose  of  this  book, 
framed  as  it  is  with  reBections  upon  that  first 
lord  of  the  Admiralty,  and  every  person  serv* 
ing  under  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty  f 

Could  it  be  imagined  this  was  done  with  a 
view  to  draw  down  an  enauiry,  and  to  have 
redress  ?  Is  it  possible  hd  snomd  abuse  those 
in  the  grossest  terms  in  whom  the  redress 
lay,  at  the  time  he  vwas  supplicating  for  re- 
dress ?* 

Ha9  he  confined  it  to  those  he  supposed 
had  the  power  of  redress,  to  the  governors  of 
the  Hospital  ?  lias  he  confined  it  to  them  ? 
No — He  says  it  is  true  I  have  delivered  it  to 
them,  but  I  have  delivered  it  to  some  friends 
of  mine. 

Court.  Only  since  the  prosecution  to  advise 
with  his  counsel,  or  a  friend  or  two  for  advice 
upon  the  prosecution. 

Mr.  Solicitor  General.  I  thought  he  con- 
lined  it  to  his  counsel. 

Court.  To  his  counsel  and  a  friend  or  two, 
and  before  he  let  any  one  person  have  it  he  de- 
livered one  to  the  first  lord  of  the  Admirally. 

Mr.  Peckham.  When  he  delivered  it  to  me, 
it  was  with  a  strict  charge  not  to  let  it  go  out 
of  my  hands  to  anv  body. 

Mr.  Just  Willes.  Cowley's  a&davit  ex- 
presses it. 

Mt,  Solicitor  General.  I  stand  corrected — 
Then  it  will  be  for  your  lordship  to  say  whe- 
ther this  could  be  the  motive  of  captain 
Baillie  in  delivering  this  book,  with  the  seve- 
ral chaises  contained  in  it,  which  were  not 
the  subject  matter  of  redress? 

In  particular,  wliat  complaint  is  there 
f^nstMr.  Stuart,  who  now  appears  before 
your  lordship  as  one  arraignea  for  having 
voted  in  the  directorship  under  the  influence 
and  the  direction  of  somebody  else :  nay  in 
being  told  his  sitting  in  the  directorship  is  in- 
competent to  him,  and  the  office  he  bears,  as 
he  was  by  that  means  to  inspect  his  own  ac- 
counts, and  be  the  judge  otthe  reasonable- 
ness of  the  articles?  Is  there  any  tbundation 
for  this? 

What  as  the  foundation  ? 

.  Mr.  Stuart  is  the  surveyor  of  all  the  works 
c^^urried  on  in  tliis  Hospital,  it  is  not  contended 
by  Mr.  BaiUie  (I  don*t  know  whether  he  piakea 
an  express  exception  of  that  in  particular)  he 
is  not  fit  for  this  duty,  or  to  judge  of  the  plans 
and  estimates  laid  before  the  Hospital. 

It  is  particularly  tiie  business  of  Mr. 
Stuart,  not  only  to  inform  himself  of  the 
{ilans  or  estimates  laid  before  them,  but  the 
utility  of  them,  and  the  axpence  with  wliich 
Ihey  are  to  be  attended. 


*  The  Lords  of  tbo  AdminiUj  make  bat  a  tmall 
fart  of  the  gorernorsand  •ommuaionen  of  the  0o»- 
f  ital.  Mr.  Solieitor  General  aays  grota  tbnie  with* 
Aot  najliig  vihaX  that  abase  was— oalj  a  plain  repM- 
•anUtioB  of  facU    Orig,  E<L 


Mr.  Stuart  \m  a  certain  annual  salary  a« 
survevor  of  the  works  of  this  Hospital,  and 
whether  there  are  more  or  Jess  is  nothing  to 
Mr.  Stuart,  but  he  is  charged  in  his  depart- 
ment  with  giving  his  opinion  upon  some  aiv 
ticles  for  the  benefit  of  other  people -^Is  there 
any  foundation  whatsoever  in  this  charge 
,  against  Mr.  Stuart,  who  is-  in  truth  an  officer 
at  an  annual  salary- ?  it  is  totally  indiffcrend 
to  him,  as  the  exuence  the  Hospital  is  p^  to, 
is  not  determlnecl  by  him,  he  is  only  to  se» 
there  is  nothing  improper  done  or  charged. 

This  is  the  nature  of  Mr.  Stuart's  situiatioD 
with  respect  to  these  cliarges  made  upon  him 
by  Mr.  iiaillie. 

W^  arc  told  too  we  are  not  within  the  or- 
dinary rule  or  course  witli  respect  to  informa- 
tions ;  and  tlie  case  of  general  Plaistow  has 
been  mentioned,  where  the  court  required  4 
particular  denial  of  one  of  the  charges,  in  ft 
paper  upon  that  general's  conduct. 

These  persons  are  charged  with  hgivvag  im* 
posed  upon  the  court  in  the  manner  set  forth  ; 
and  that  they  have  in  their  breast  a  salvo  for 
the  oath  they  have  taken»  and  that  they 
themselves  have  put  a  construction  upon  the 
articles  and  charges — and  they  swear  thej 
are  not  true  according  to  that  construction. 

Is  it  possible  to  put  that  construction  upon 
tliis  affidavit ;  or  if  an  indictment  were  pre^ 
ferred  against  them,  is  it  possible  for  any 
coi4psel  to  stand  up  and  tell  a  jury  what  they 
have  sworn  from  their  own  ideas  are  contrary 
to  the  ideas  of  every  man  upon  the  subject. 

They  conceive  the  cliarge  to  contain  that 
imputation,  wiiich  in  truth  the  directors  do 
not  deserve,  and  therefore  they  swear  they 
are  not  guilty  according  to  that  imputation. 

What  they  hav«  sworn  does  not  apply  to 
tliem  any  otherwise;  there  is  not  one  of 
them,  nor  any  counsel  of  the  bar,  would  stand, 
up  to  state  such  a  fact  before  a  jury,  and  call 
it  perjury— it  is  impossible.  I  have  stated  to 
your  iordshi{)  many  general  charges  I  have 
selected,  so  fiir  as  the  general  charges  affect 
any  one  of  them— so  fiu*  they  say  they  are  not 
guilty. 

In  the  first  place,  it  is  said  they  all  vote 
according  to  direction,  they  never  give  a  vote 
but  from  direction,  and  they  suspend  their 
vote  till  then — What  does  that  imply  ?  Oudl 
it  have  more  than  one  meaning,  which  ie 
this,  they  don't  use  their  own  judgment  as 
they  are  bound  to  do?  it  cannot  lutve  ^nj 
other  construction. 

It  is  said  tliey  have  not  ffone  into  particut- 
lars,  but  contented  themselves  in  FPftV^fig 
these  denials,  with  a  reservation  in  their  own 
mmds— from  which  reservation  they  cannot 
possibly  be  guilty  of  negury. 

I  wish  they  woula  state  to  me  that  altd^ 
native  in  any  part  which  is  applicable  to  the 
denial,  as  it  would  go  to  a  great  number  more 
of  the  general  charges  to  which  these  gentle* 
men  have  sworn  (it  is  said)  to  satisfy  the  couit 
—I  take  it  in  each  of  thep  there  is  a  denial 
sufficient,  and  no  prevarii^tiaD  whatever,  ygsr 


H]       pispGiing  the  ttoj^ai  HtapHai  at  GreEmnth.         A.  D.  1778. 

hnWp  will  consider  the  denial  and  ^e  import 

^Ifatscfavrge. 
Hat  these  are  also  pablic  officers  executing 

sfoblic  tnist;  the  Court  have  thought  any 

ofgections  beins  reported  of  people  m  such 
apadtiesy  ana  not  founded  in  ikct,  have 
fteeo  a  soffideDt  ground  to  grant  an  infor- 
mation. 

As  a  charge  upon  a  mail  in  a  public  capar 
dty^not  doing  his  duty  is  a  libel ;  in  private 
fftoe  maj  be  libeh,  as  in  the  case  of  general 
Fiaistov,  it  was  not  onlj  charging  him  with 
krbg  teen  at  the  Old  Bailey  singly,  as  Mr. 
ZrskiDe  has  sud,  but  the  facts  of  his  being 
abroad  as  a  gamester,  and  dealing  with  false 
^De,  and  many  other  particular  charges  of 
that  land  in  a  particular  company. 

The  Court  required  him  to  make,  an  afB- 
davit  of  these  articles;  that  was  what  the 
Oxot  teouired  him^  to  make  an  affidavit — 
he  complained  of  tnis  as  a  libel — the  facts 
Here  stated  with  precision  and  particularity, 
ft  he  could  not  be  under  any  difficulty  in  an- 
sivering. 

That  was  the  case  of  general  Plaistow,  but 
your  lordships  have  heard  a  great  deal  which 
passed  at  the  committee  of  enquiry,  and  that 
'It  was  a  joke,  and  the  trial  was  set  on  foot  for 
seqmtfing  Uiose  charged,  and  throwing  the 
Uame  upon  Mr.  Baillie. 

And  Mr.  Millie  states  he  went  to  the  Ad- 
mirat^tohave  this  enquired  into,  and  lord 
Sandwich  told  him  to  name  seven  out  of  the 
Sectors,  which  consist  of  twenty-fom",  some 
by  their  offices,  ss  the  governor,  lieutenants 
governor,  ancfitor,  and  treasurer,  are  directors, 
ttid  the  rest  maJce  up  twenty-four,  that  are 
appointed  by  the  Admiralty. 

Have  they  stated  the  names  of  those  ap- 
pcnnted  hy  the  Admiralty  ?  They  have  stated 
the  chaplain,  surveyor,  and  six-penny  re- 
ceiver to  be  three ;  but  have  they  stated  the 
other  seventeen?  of  what  description  they 
are  ?  how  likely  to  be  influenced  to  prostitute 
their  cbaracters  for  the  acquittal  of  ihen 
finhy  of  offences  of  this  kind  ?  the  amotions 
Ming  in  the  Admiralty,  the  first  lord  of  the 
Admiralty  wishes  he  would  appoint  seven,  as 
he  admits  in  his  hook,  and  that  many  of  them 
ire  of  irreproachable  characters.  Says  lord 
Sandwich,  do  you  name  seven  out  ot  them, 
and  I  will  send  an  authority  for  them  to  make 
^  enquiiy ;  he  wasr  to  name  seven  of  the 
&cctors  to  enquire  into  the  directors'  con- 
duct, and  of  those  several  officers  that  are  ap- 
pointed by  the  Admiralty,  who  have  a  power 
to  remove  them. 

Mr.  Baillie  in  his  book  has  injured  a  great 
Jteny  persons  of  most  irreproachable  charac- 
ters, some  of  them  men  quite  at  liberty. 
^•ys  lord  Sandwich  again,  Mr.  Baillie,  name 
•even  men  out  of  the  directors,  and  I  will 
■end  a  direction  to  them  to  enquire  into  the 
bottom  of  it  ?  No,  Sir,  says  he,  I  will  not  have 
toy  of  the  directors :  then  says  the  lord  of  the 


Adimnd^  to  hiin,  If  you  will  not  name  them, 
I  will:  he  names  sir  Meyrick  Bunrell,  Mr. 


[54 

Cus%  captain  James,  captain  Barker,  Mr. 
Wells,  captain  Reynolds,  and  Mr.  Savar^. 

Court.  I  do  not  find.  Mr.  Bearcrofl,  m  the 
present  affidavit,  any  of^ihose  directors  refer- 
red to  by  the  printed  memorial  in  the  book 
amongst  the  seven  directors  ? 

Mr.  Bearcrqft,  My  lord,  there  are  some 
of  them. 

Mr.  Solicitor  General.  Not  one  of  them 
among  the  seven  named;  and  out  of  the 
whole  number  Mr.  Baillie  might  have  taken 
an^r  seven.  He  might  have  taken  anv ;  nam^ 
whrch  you  will  out  of  ^e  body,  which  you 
know  to  consist  of  men  of  the  first  charactelh 
and  beyond  all  reproach ;  name  them  your- 
self? I  wiH  not  name  them  because  thev  are 
parties :  What  could  be  done  ?  Lord  Sandwich 
named  seven  of  those  directors,  not  one 
against  whom  there  was  any  particular  chaise, 
and  they  were  not  at  all  concerned  in  uic 
transaction  whose  general  business  it  was  to 
attend  these  meetings. 

In  every  corporation  and  a.ssembly  they 
must  be  selectea  as  these  were ;  every  body 
knows  they  must  do  all  the  business  incum- 
bent upon  the  members  t6  do ;  it  must  fall 
into  the  hands  of  those  who  attend  in  general. 

This  enquiry  was  appointed,  says  Mr.  Peck- 
ham,  but  it  was  an  illegal  oourt. 

Mr.  Peekham.  1  did  not  call  it  a  court,  but 
men  appointed  to  enquire  and  report  upon 
their  own  conduct,  not  to  give  judgment  and 
sentence  too,  they  should  nave  done  nothing 
more  than  report  to  those  who  had  that 
power. 

Court.  I  take  it  to  be  a  committee  ap- 
pointed by  the  governors;  at  a  eenend 
court  of  governors  they  were  appointed. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  Yes,  the  court  of  governors 
a>nsist  of  a  great  number  of  gentlemen; 
seven  of  those  men  are  appointed  by  the 
court  of  governors,  and  Mr.  Baillie  might  harve 
had  the  nomination  of  them,  as  I  said  before, 
of  every  one  of  them;  he  would  not  ac- 
cruiescc;  says  lord  Sandwich,  I  will  name 
tnem :  No,  says  he,  the  governors  arc  to  name 
them. 

We  did  not  know  what  was  the  intention 
of  the  committee  to  do,  becaa<%  the  applica- 
tion to  this  Court  was  first  made ;  we  aid  not 
know  at  that  time  the  report  of  this  court  of 
enquiry. 

Court.    Not  by  the  report? 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  Yes,  oy  the  report  so  soon 
as  the  enquiry  was  over,  but  during  the  en- 
quiry, while  they  w^e  consulting  amongst 
tnemselves  about  the  report,  this 'application 
was^ade  to  the  Court,  not  waiting  till  the 
report  was  made. 

Court.  The  report  was  publicly  read  to 
Mr.  Baillie,  though  he  had  no  copy  of  it? 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  No,  not  then;  it  was  in 
August. 

Court.    The  motion  was  in  Trinity  term. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  The  motion  was  m  Trinity 
term  for  the  information,  but  the  business  oif 
the  enquiry  was  not  over. 


65] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUlie,  [56 


Mr.JvksX.Ashhura,  Where  was  the  use  of 
waiting  till  the  end  of  the  enquiry  ? 

Mr.  Bear  croft.  My  lord,  it  is  sworn  by  our 
affidavit,  that  the  business  of  the  meeting  of 
the  committee  was  to  consider  of  and  make 
the  report,  and  they  do  not  make  the  appli- 
cation then. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  Mr.  Murphy  says,  to  their 
knowledge  it  was  in  August,  and  not  before. 

Court,  It  might  be  in  August,  but  on 
what  day  of  the  month  was  it  read*  in  the 
hearing  of  captain  Baillie  ? 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen,  It  certainly  was  not  read 
to  him ;  it  was  not  drawn  up ;  I  remember 
asking  the  question,  what  was  the  result  of 
the  enquiry,  and  they  said,  they  could  not 
tell. 

Court.  Something  runs  in  my  head  that  it 
was  read  to  him. 

Mr.  Bearcroft.  It  was  read  to  him,  my 
lord,  at  the  time  he  was  told  he  was  sus- 
pended. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  It  was  read  in  the  general 
court  of  governors. 

Court.    The  report  is  the  6th  of  August. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  It  was  read  to  Mr.  Baillie 
at  the  general  court  of  governors  of  the  Hos- 
pital, who  suspended  him  in  the  month  of 
August.  In  truth,  I  was  not  certain  to  the 
time  the  report  was  made.  I  asked  the  at- 
tornev,  when  he  came  into  court  the  last  day; 
he  told  me,  those  who  were  advised  upon  this 
business,  thought  it  not  a  proper  thing  to 
move  this  Court  till  after  the  enquiry  was 
finished,  they  thought  it  might  be  an  impro- 
per influence. 

The  gentlemen  have  over  and  over  again 
alluded  to  the  great  delay  in  the  process  of 
that  enquiry,  not  a  word  of  which  did  I  ever 
hear  a  hint  of,  till  Mr.  Bearcroft  stated  it. 

And,  that  this  gentleman  suffered  extreme- 
ly, not  only  from  the  indecent  manner  with 
wniph  those  that  constituted  tliat  committee 
treated  him  duripg  their  proceedings,  but  by 
a  gentleman  who  fortunately  is  here,  Mr. 
Morgan,  to  answer  for  himself,  and,  I  tnist, 
will  acqiiit  himself  of  every  insinuation  upon 
him  before  the  Court. 

There  is  another  part  of  the  case  which 
your  lordship  has  heard  a  great  deal  upon  in- 
deed, which  was  what  passed  subsequent  to 
this  report.  Your  lordship  has  had  an*  ac- 
count of  the  manner  in  which  this  report  was 
read,  in  what  way  it  was  received,  and  the 
consequences  that  attended  Mr.  Baillie ;  that 
he  was  dismissed  by  the  holding  up  of  hands, 
or  in  some  such  ridiculous  manner,  by  the 
meeting  of  persons  whom  they  did  not  name; 
it  was  a  meeting  of  the  governors  of  this 
Hospital. 

.  Tnis  part  of  the  case  which  has  happened 
in  August,  your  lordhhips  have  no  opportunity 
of  hearing  a  syllable  about ;  the  biismess  was 
a  subject  of  complaint,  originally  founded 
upon  affidavits  previous  to  the  transactions. 

Your  lordships  have  heard  a  great  deal  of 
fhut   which  was  stated  upon  affidavit.    Is 


there  any  person  applying  to  this  Court,  if  a 
party  in  the  transactions  alluded  to  in  August, 
that  has  a  possibihty  of  being  heard? 

Are  your  lordships  to  take  all  these  suspi- 
cions and  apprehensions  of  Mr.  Baillie,  with 
respect  to  tne  motives  for  these  transactions^ 
as  containing  imputations  upon  any  one  geiir- 
tleman } 

Court.  As  to  that  you  are  heard ;  but  as 
to  the  fact,  that  the  governors  have  exercised 
their  Judgnient  so  far  as  to  have  suspended 
him,  is  tlmt  denied  ? 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  I  only  mean  de  facto  he  is 
susnended. 

Court.  Then  de  facto  he  is  suspended ;  if 
so,  I  would  adjourn  the  consideration  of  this 
and  have  it  enquired  into. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.    He  is  in  fact  suspended. 

Court.    That  is  all  I  wanted  to  Know. 

Mr.  Sol.  Gen.  As  to  the  mere  fact  of  sus*- 
pension,  they  have  had  no  opportunity  of 
being  heard  upon  it.  If  there  is  any  imputa^ 
tion  arising  upon  them  for  that,  they  have  no 
opportunity  of  answering :  to  be  sure,  I  do  not 
pretend  to  say,  that  is  not  a  material  fact  to 
De  laid  before  your  lordship  in  the  examina- 
tion of  the  business,  whether  it  is  proper  for 
your  lordship  to  proceed  or  not,  seeing  Uie 
party  has  had  some  punishment  for  this  of^ 
lence. 

I  do  not  quarrel  with  the  fact  being  stated 
to  the  Court,  but  the  manned  in  which  it  was 
stated,  and  the  animadversions  made  upon 
the  persons  that  constituted  that  Court  wnen 
the  suspension  took  place. 

This  is  a  part  of  the  case  that  cannot  be 
taken  into  consideration  at  all  more  than  the 
mere  facts  of  the  case,  and  that  the  party  has 
suffered  to  the  amount  of  600/.  a  year. 

It  may  be  so;  thiat  fact,  to  be  sure,  is  a 
very  material  consideration  for  your  lordship 
in  the  discussion  of  a  subject  of  this  kin<i^ 
when  using  that  discretionary  power  which  is 
in  the  Court. 

I  apprehend  this  business  is  within  the 
very  rule  necessary  for  informations,  as  there 
have  been  imputations  upon  a  body  of  men 
executing  this  charter  according  to  the  best 
of  their  ability  and  agreeable  to  their  con- 
sciences. 

They  are  charged  with  having  acted  by  tlie 
mandates  of  others,  and  not  only  so,  but  they 
suspended  their  vote  till  they  received  such 
directions;  and  in  other  instances,  the  seat^ 
were  bought  at  this  board,  and  if  so,  they  are 
unfit  to  come  there ;  that  they  ought  to  be 
placed  there  by  persons  in  whom  the  trust  is 
invested,  and  not  by  others;  these  are  the 
facts  charged  upon  the  directors,  and  no  anT 
swer  has  been  given  to  it. 

Therefore,  under  all  these  circumstances,  I 
trust  your  lordship  will  see  it  is  a  case  propei: 
for  the  animadversion  of  this  Court ;  it  is  a 
libel  upon  persons  in  public  stations;  it  is  in^r 
suiting  them  in  those  stations,  and  is  distin- 
guishable from  the  common  case  of  a  perso|; 
applying  for  an  information  for  a  libel. 


57]         retpeetk^  the  Royal  HaspUal  ai  Greentoich.         A.  D.  177S« 


^58 


I  submit  to  your  lordship,  here  b  such  a 
denial  of  the  chams  in  the  libel  as  ¥rill  sa- 
tis^ the  Oust ;  if  your  lordships  do  not  in- 
taierc  in  this  case,  eveiy  person's  application 
hereafler  may  be  over-nued,  though  the  ap- 
pliaticm  be  made  by  a  body  of  this  kind. 

And  thcry  may  be  told,  as  these  have  been, 
they  are  influenced  by  other  motives  than 
tfam  own  conscience  when  they  give  their 
voles;  and,  I  trust,  your  lordships  will  say, 
this  nile^  ou^ht  to  l>e  made  absolute  against 
captain  Baillie,  for  it  is  a  libel  upon  the  cha- 
racters of  mpn  that  did  not  deserve  it,  with 
an  intent  to  transmit  to  posterity  this  stigma, 
that  the  men  who  were  to  execute  this  public 
trust  did  not  act  upon  their  own  judgment,  but 
were  made  the  mstruments  of  revenge  of 
others. 

Mr.  Wewnham : 

May  it  please  your  lordship  to  favour 
me  upon  the  same  side  as  Mr.  Solicitor  Gene- 
laL  Having  attended  as  carefully  as  I  could 
to  every  thing  said  by  the  gentlemen  upon 
lht  €>tJkka  side,  I  confess^  I  was  rather  inclined 
to  think  they  were  movmg  for  an  information 
iiom  the  manner  they  defended  themselves, 
than  shewing  cause  against  this  rule. 

Tbe  gentiemen  have  all  founded  themselves 
upon  the  affidavit  of  Mr.  Baillie  as  supposing 
it  substantially  true,  and  upon  that  they  sup- 
pose ev^  abuse,  which  the  book  says  is  true, 
is  founded  in  fact,  and  that  was  the  defence 
he  meant  to  make. 

It  is  not  expected  we  should  answer  the  ri^ 
dicule  of  the  two  first  gentlemen,  the  in- 
vectives of  the  tlurd,  nor  the  florid  eloquence 
that  fell  from  Mr.  Erskine,  but  to  submit 
what  we  have  to  say  in  favour  of  the  prose- 
cutors, who  are  only  attentive  to  their  own 
character,  and  in  their  consciences  knowing 
(as  they  state)  they  are  guiltless  of  the  charges 
contained  in  the  libel. 

That  there  are  charges  against  them  was 
admitted  bv  some  of  ^e  counsel.    Mr.  Bear- 
croft  stated  some  very  severe  charges,  though 
jLhc  other  eentiemen  seemed  to  say,  there 
were  no  charges  of  a  specific  fraud  against 
>t^m.    I  do  not  know  what  charge  can  be 
more  severe  or  specific  against  any  body  of 
men^  namely,  that  for  want  of  ability  or  in- 
tegrity, they  are  unfit  any  longer  to  continue 
in  the  exercise  of  that  important  office  they 
held ;  it  is  calling  them  in  other  terms,  fools 
or  ki^ves,  or  boUi,  and  they  thought  ^t  in- 
cumbent upon  them  to  proceed  against  the 
gentleman  that  dared  to  asperse  them,  and  to 
say  the  charge  is  groundless. 

There  are  several  other  specific  charges— 
one,  that  a  great  quantity  of  prize-raoney  Mr. 
Baillie  supposed  to  be  due  for  prizes  taken  in 
the  late  war. 

Your  lordship  knows  those  prizes  unclaimed 
areeiven  by  parliament  to  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital Ue  states,  since  the  charter  that  pass- 
ed preceding  the  date  of  this  publication,  the 
i^^n  hatt  been  sg  inattentively  negli- 


gent to  the  affiiirs  of  the  Hospital,  that  nO 
steps  were  taken  to  recover  this  money ; 
whereas,  if  any  step  had  been  taken,  more 
than  forty  or  fifty  thousand  pounds  might 
have  been  recovered. 

Mr.  Baillie  must  know  steps  have  been 
taken,  and  thirty  or  forty  thousand  pounds 
has  been  recovered,  and  every  step  has  been 
taken  to  promote  a  speedy  recovery ;  and,  aa 
he  states,  these  prize^ents  were  living  at  the 
West  Indies,  it  was  necessary  to  file  a  bill  ia 
the  court  of  equity  in  Jamaica,  and  upon 
eveiT  interlocutory  order,  the  prize  a^nts  ap- 
plied to  the  privy  council.  Mr.  Baillie  knows 
that  they  applied  to  the  privy  council.  I  have 
had  the  honour  to  attend  them  upon  ten  dif- 
ferent consultations ;  I  think  they  dismissed 
the  appeal  with  costs. 

The  order  of  the  privy  council  went  as  far 
and  farther  than  they  had  ever  done  before ; 
particularly,  one  of  the  learned  judees  desired 
them  to  20  as  far  as  they  could,  ana  they  gave 
consideru>le  costs  in  the  business ;  so  they 
went  on  in  the  course  of  the  business  as  far  as 
the  court  of  chancery  in  Jamaica  would  per- 
mit them  to  proceed. 

Court.  I  hope  Xhey  always  giveinteresL 
I  always  give  it  at  Guildhall,  and  the  privy 
council  should :  I  only  give  you  an  instance 
of  a  precedent. 

Mr.  Newnham,  J  hope  they  will  ultimately 
give  interest  in  Jamaica. 

Court.  You  observe  it  was  a  case  where 
the  stents  seemed  to  be  feinting,  and  keeping 
the  money  back,  after  it  came  into  their  hands. 
Mr.  Newnh4im.  Then  with  respect  to  the 
other  instances,  particularly  the  butcher,  the 
directors  must  have  been  plaintifis,  thoum  not 
by  name,  and  it  was  not  to  be  expecteothey 
would  betray  the  cause  of  the  pensioners. 
What  was  the  opinmn  of  the  directors  ?  they 
directed  that  an  opinion  should  be  given  inw 
mediately,  and  in  decisive  terms. 

In  consequence  of  that  opinion,  a  method 
was  taken  to  prosecute  Melfish,  and  he  was 
convicted ;  and  would  have  been  convicted  a 
second  time;  but  the  directors  are  charged 
aflerwards  with  contracting  with  this  man. 

The  contract  was  open,  in  consequence  of 
public  advertisements,  and  Mellish  was  the 
lowest  bidder,  his  offer  vras  the  lowest  terms. 
Would  not  Mr.  Baillie  with  greater  propriety, 
and  more  force,  have  abuMd  the  directors 
with  want  of  attention  to  the  interest  of  the 
Hospital,  if  they  had  not  taken  the  lowest 
contract.  Is  Uiere  any  thing  to  say  of  him 
after  the  second  action  ?  He  is  staled  to  h^ 
worth  80,000/.  that  is  not  by  defirauiUng  the 
Hospital. 
Court,  He  meant  that. 
Mr.  Newnham.  He  offered  to  do  it  upon 
better  terms  than  any  body  else.  Respecting 
the  specific  terms  of  the  charges,  they  are 
found  to  be  groundless,  and  they  are  in  fact, 
and  in  terms,  positively  denied.  It  is  said,  so 
far  as  they  tend  to  criminate  the  persons 
making  the  affidavits,  they  are  falser     Otit 


m 


18  6EOROE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BailUe^  [60 


person  cannot  ^ear  wbat  relates  to  another 
peraoQ  is  false,  but  so  far  as  relates  to  himself, 
eacb  says  it  is  false. 

What  is  the  objection  to  Mr.  Stuart  ?  Is  he 
incompetent  ^  Is  he  unfit  for  the  office  of  sur- 
veyor r  afid  his  knowledge  in  the  profession 
BO  ba4  atttd  trifling,  as  not  to  make  him  worthy 
of  the  apfointment^  Is  there  any  instance  of 
the  sorU  or  any  thing  in  this  affidavit  oi  Mr. 
BeuUie  niing  any  particular  charge  upon  Mr. 
Stuart? 

I  think  it  is  the  same,  only  in  the  publica- 
tion with  respect  to  Mr.  Mylne,  it  says  he  is  a 
landman. 

That  is  not  imputable  to  the  directors.  Is  it  at 
a.11  said  or  proved,  within  the  construction  of 
this  charter,-  tliat  every  person  whatsoever, 
employed  in  the  management  of  the  Hospital, 
must  be  a  seaman  ?  Should  an  architect  and 
a  builder  be  a  seaman,  or  any  sach  persons 
who  are  paid  lor  their  particular  labour,  is  it 
incumbent  upon  them  to  be  seamen  ?  I -con- 
ceive notr;  and  what  is  stated  of  Mr.  Mylne 
being  the  clerk  of  the  works,  is  applicable  to 
other  builders,  and  they  will  not  say  the  clerk 
of  the  works  ought  to  be  a  seaman. 

Then  one  of  the  gentlemen  is  charged  with 
being  the  contriver  to  defraud  the  Hospital  of 
1/)00/.  for  cleaning  pictures,  as  Mr.  Bearcroft 
said  of  Mr.  Stuart. 

Would  TOUT,  lordship  imagine  this  was  a 
}»ainted  hall,  containing  I  do  not  know  how 
m^y  thousand  feet,  and  could  not  be  repured 
in  a  proper  manner,  under  1,000/.  or  there- 
abouts? 

It  was  stated  to  be  an  immaterial  thing  to 
the  Hospital,  whereas  in  fact  Mr.  BaiUie  is 
obliged  to  acknowledge  it  brings  in  4  or  500/. 
a  year  revenue  fbr  shewing  this  to  stran^rs. 

It  was  necessary  to  preserve  it,  and  it  does 
not  appear  Mr.  Stuart  was  in  any  degree 
ftuilty  of  the  smallest  impropriety,  or  the 
mend  he  recommended,  who  actually  has 
done  it  at  an  inferior  price  to  that  which  was 
usual. 

With  respect  to  Mr.  Cooke,  the  subject  has 
been  worn  quite  threadbare,  he  (Mr.  Cooke) 
states  the  charge  against  him  to  be  false. 

He  is  stated  as  Imving  purchased,  under  the 
sanction  of  a  particular  person,  whose  name  I 
do  not  wish  to  mention,  the  office  he  enjoys. 
Is  there  any  proof  of  it  ?  None ;  and  it  is  de- 
liied  fkitly  and  positively  by  Mr.  Cooke. 

CoMff .  Do  you  mean  that  he  gave  the  chap- 
lain that  resigned,  money  fbr  so  doing— not 
ihat  he  purchased  it,  but  gave  the  sea  chaplain 
something  to  'go  out. 

Mr.  liewnham.  It  is  stated  in  the  book  he 
purchased  the  chaplainship ;  that  he  bar- 
gained and  paid  money  for  it  under  the  sanc- 
tion of  the  nrst  lord  of'^the  Admiralty 

Mr.  Bearcrqft,  Is  that  denied  m  any  of 
your  affidavits  ? 

Mr.  Newnftnm,  I  do  not  know.  My  lord, 
it  is  made  matter  of  complaint.  I  considerea 
it  as  a  complaint  made  against  the  proseeutors, 
in  the  mAoner  the  gentleman  admitted,  that  a 


vast  number  of  landmen  found  their  way  to 
the  Hospital.    By  whose  means  ? 

Is  that  imputable  to  the  directors  ? 

Certainly  not. 

It  is  stated  however,  that  this  book  was  not 
intended  as  a  general  publication,  but  merely 
as  a  remonstrance  to  persons  competent  to 
redress  grievances,  of  wnich  it  contams  a  long 
detail ;  in  conseauence  of  which  Mr.  Baillte 
is  desirous  to  have  an  enquiry  into  their  con- 
duct, and  a  general  board  of  the  dire^ors  is 
summoned,  and  Mr.  Baillie  attends. 

To  whom  was  the  application  to  be  made 
for  redress  of  internal  grievances,  and  the  re- 
gulation of  the  house,  but  the  directors  that 
were  competent  to  interpose  ? 

Mr.  BaiUie  was  offered  to  choose  seven  of 
his  own  naming ;  he  declines  it ;  he  could 
not  decline  it  upon  account  of  none  of  them 
being  competent,  for  he  states,  that  many  per- 
sons were  of  irreproachable  character  and  ho- 
nour amongst  them,  and  there  was  no  persoft 
amongst  the  committee,  against  whom  there 
was  any  particular  charge  made. 

They  sat  seven  da^s^  and  make  a  reporfy 
which  was  subsequent,  m  point  of  time,  to  thfe 
application  to  your  lordship  for  this  rule ;  for 
tne  application  was  made  in  TrinHy-term,  thft 
report  bears 'date  in  August,  considerably 
after  the  expiration  of  that  term,  so  that 
every  thing  was  subsequent  to  that  original 
application  to  the  Court  for  an  information. 

The  prosecutors  of  this  rule  have  not  had 
the  smallest  opportunity  to  answer  in  any  r6- 
specbthe  affidavits,  and  it  rests  wholly  upon 
the  affidavit  of  Mr.  Baillie,  and  the  others, 
without  the  smallest  opportunity  of  being 
heard  agidnst  them. 

I  take  it  from  them,  that  all  the  specific 
charts  asainst  every  one  of  them  are  false ; 
and  tney  have  as  good  a  ri^ht  to  say  they  are 
false  as  they  have  to  say  they  are  true.  The 
affidavits  contradict  each  other. 

I  have  no  doubt  volumes  of  affidavits  of 
other  very  respectable  people  might  be  pro- 
duced to  contra(hct  every  one  of  the  charges 
in  the  affidavits,  and  with  respect  to  some  of 
them,  they  are  exceedingly  mistaken  and  mis- 
represented, which  is  as  much  as  decency  will 
permit  a  counsel  to  say  of  those  that  fall  kn- 
mediately  within  my  knowledge. 

But  supposing  them  all  true,  or  false,  it 
matters  not — it  is  said  it  was  only  a  complaint 
to  persons  competent  to  redress  grievances, 
ana  meant  as  a  remonstrance  or  memorial-, 
and  in  the  first  place,  it  was  not  meant  to  be 
public,  only  to  a  set  of  gentlemen  competent 
to  redress  the  grievances. 

I  do  not  think  it  is  proper  to  lessen  or  di- 
minish the  right  of  application  for  redress  of 
nievances,  to  any  persons  competent  to  re- 
lieve them ;  but  I  do  not  know  now  any  man 
presenting  a  petition  or  memorial  to  any  set 
of  men,  has  a  right  to  say,  You  are  a  pack  of 
fools  or  knaves.  If  such  a  thing  is  done,  it  is 
not  within  the  right  of  petitioning ;  that  is  mv 
idea  with  respect  to  this  pubfication.     Te 


$IJ  rupeding  the  Royal  HospUal  at  GreentvicL.        A.  D*  1778; 


[68 


wbatn  does  he  ddiver  it?  Not  to  persons  ca- 
pable of  vedres6-<-he  delivers  it  to  persons  who 
laye  no  authority  to  amove — he  tells  you  the 
directors  are  knaves;  Can  the  directors 
•move  themselves,  or  their  fellow  directors  ? 
Certainly  not :  and  therefore  it  was  not  com- 
petent to  apply  to  them  for  redress,  in  any 
VBSpecty  of  tnat  particular  grievance,  which, 
he  says,  was  occasioned  by  a  pack  of  knaves 
OF  Ibols,  having  found  their  way  into  an  hos- 
fiital  by  meenB  of  parliamentary  influence.  I 
mve  nothing  to  do  with  Uie  ground  upon 
which  tb^  were  appointed  to  the  office  tney 
^^joy?  1  know  nothung  of  it ;  but  sure  I  am, 
IfcAt  -soame  of  jthe  persons,  I  see  in  the  list  of 
the  direction,  are  directors,  that  were  in  be- 
Ibre  the  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty  had  any 
office  in  this  country.  I  believe  some  have 
been  thiete  for  thirty  years  or  more— this 
aecmed  to  be  the  great  ground  upon  which 
the  gentlemen  have  eone :  I  shall  leave  Mr. 
Morgan  to  defend  himself  in  the  way  he 
thinks  fit,  concerning  his  oonduct  at  Oreen- 
wich  Hospital ;  I  have  nothing  to  do  with  that 
pert  of  the  taoatter. 

Ctmrt,    That  is  not  kind. 
Blr.  Neamham.    I  was  not  present,  I  can- 
not say  a  syllable  upon  the  ill  language  they 
talk  off  in  respect  to  Mr.  Baillie. 

Cauri,     You  are  concerned  to  defend  an 
attack  made  upon  special  pleading. 

Mr.  Newnhinn.  I  have  nothing  to  do  with 
that  in  this  case ;  there  were  some  complaints 
4^  Mr.  Baillie's  heat,  which  has  been  conspi- 
cuous to^y;  but  we  have  nothing  to  do 
with  it;  if  they  have,  by  warmth  or  heat,  be- 
haved amiss  to  Mr.  Baillie,  I  am  persuaded, 
the  gentlemen  are  sorry  for  it ;  I  have  no 
doubt  there  was  a  sood  deal  of  ill  knouage, 
but  I  am  peFBuadea  such  langjuage  coukl  not 
have  fidlen  without  provocation.  Upon  the 
part  of  the  present  application  to  the  Court,  I 
am  to  submit  to  your  lordship  the  present 
fircsefaitors  think  themselves  aggrieved  and 
il^treated,  and  upon  that  ground  they  apply 
for  an  infiarsaation,  denying  in  a  general  way 
every  fiict  that  tends  to  criminate  them,  or 
|hat  is  made  part  of  the  charge. 

Mr.  Macdonald.  I  am  of  counsel  upon  the 
lame  side,  and  I  have  |;reat  acloiowledgments 
to  make,  and  thanks  io  express,  to  the  ^entle- 
inen  who  hf^e  gone  before  me,  for  domg,  in 
a  great  measuie,  lAy  duty  for  me ;  it  remains 
Cor  me  to  state  amongst  the  rest,  how  ex- 
tremefy  ill  Mr.  Stuart  liAS  been  treated ;.  and 
all  the  nbjections  in  the  afiklavit  of  Mr.  Bail- 
lie,  and  eveiy  other  objection  that  has  been 
made,  do  not  extend  to  the  case  of  Mr.  Stuart. 
Two  classes  of  peracmsy  architects  and  other 
officers,  have  moved  for  an  infonnatio&,  for 
bdng  cahimnialed  by  this  officer  of  the  house, 
Cflpedallj  Mr.  Stuart,  who  is  more  particu- 
hngr  ooaceroed  Mr.  Baillie  has  thought 
r,  in  a  separate  capacity,  to  affect  him  in 
and  oGcupalion  in  life.  I  shall 
before  your  lordsmp  those  passages  that 
biB> aA4 ahftw tuthe  ia  ralumraated. 


For  Mr.  Stuart  my  more  iaimediaie  addovs 
will  be ;  but  I  shakl  say  something,  with  yeiir 
lordship'ir  permission,  respecting  the  general 
point. 

It  is  very  well  worth  obeerv^tion,  and  I  in- 
quest your  lordship's  attention  to  the  season 
at  which  Mr.  Bailhe  chose  to  publish  this  ac- 
count—just  at  that  season  when  eneoumssa- 
ment  to  seamen  was  most  necessary,  and  ixff 
means  of  this  book  setting  into  their,  hands, 
or  the  examination  of  jpeo^  who  could  com- 
municate it,  your  lordship  must  see  the  con- 
sequence. Certainly  the  motive  is  clear ;  and 
the  directors,  as  individuals,  )iad  a  vei^  propiv 
motive  for  bringing  this  be^re  the  public.  It 
icertainly  tends  to  discountenance  aea^aen 
from  entering  into  his  majesty's  servioe,  if 
such  a  spirit,  a&  this  book  might  occasion, 
should  dimise  itself  amongst  such  a  body  of 
men— it  was  nartacularly  dangerous  at  that 
point  of  time,  tne  beginmng  of  March  laat :  it 
certainly  was  not  a  proper  time  to  make  siirjt 
an  aiiplication  by  publishing  such  a  book.  I 
shall  not  go  through  every  wing  that  has  been 
suggested  upon  the  other  side ;  but  it  strikes 
me,  the  gentlemen  have  siven  the  go-by  to 
the  principal  question,  and  directed  their  at- 
tack in  a  quarter  not  before  the  Court -^where 
it  is  not  my  business  to  defeiKl.  The  argu- 
ment the  gentlemen  on  Uie  other  side  went 
upon,  was  ridicule,  which  has  been  used  with 
success,  from  every  hand  that  it  came ;  and 
the  eloquence  that  has  distin^ushed  Mr. 
Erskineeave  me  great  satisfaction!  In  the 
course  of  my  life  I  never  felt  greater  pleasure 
than  in  hearing  my  old  school-fellow,  and  one 
of  the  earliest  friends  of  my  infancy,  deliver 
himself  with  such  great  ability,  ai)d  I  can  only 
say  of  him  qualis  ub  incepto,  Mr.Bearcroiitold 
y6ur  lordship  it  was  a  statement  of  facts  to  r^ 
fresh  the  memory  of  the  governors  and  direc- 
tors, and  not  meant  to  be  published  at  the 
booksellers  or  stationers  by  a  public  sale.  As 
to  public  or  private,  is  it  possiole  for  any  bodj 
that  reads  a  single  page  of  it,  or  looks  into 
any  part  of  it,  not  to  see  that  the  publication 
was  meant  for  general  inspection,  and  meant 
at  least  to  be  seen  by  idi  those  whose  rank 
and  situation  of  life  make  them  sovemors? 
and  then  it  can  hardly  be  supposed  the  ooiif- 
tents  of  it  should  not  be  perfectly  (>ublic :  aa 
to  publication  there  *is  little  doubt  it  is  to  he 
considered  as  such,  and  that  it  is  a  libel ;  as 
to  the  pubhshing  it  every  where,  though  per*- 
haps  it  is  not  so  universally  publish^  as  if 
there  had  been  a  sale  of  it ;  but  it  ;haviaig 
been  given  to  all  the  goyemors,  thei%can  be 
no  doubt  it  would  be  &iown  to  your  lo^shipi^ 
and  that  sill  the  kingdom  must  soon  know  of 
it.  It  is  said  it  does  not  charge  the  dkrectees 
with  firaud  by  any  manner  of  means.  What 
does  it  do  in  jthecaae  of  the  butcher  and  of 
Ellis  ?  If  your  lordship  turns  to  almost  any 
one  pagjein  that  book,  the  veiy  word  ^ifraudr 
occurs  in  ahnost  every  instance,  cooruptioii 
must  appear  in  the  facts  themselves ;  that  ip 
the  prindfial  idea,  and  that  an  e&tira-aubordi- 


63] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  Baillie,  |^G4 


once. 


tioninjg  the  case  of  the  Seven  Bishops  with  the 
least  £gree  of  lenity ;  it  was  upon  resisting  an 
illegal  order  which  had  been  made,  and  it 
became  the  catechism  of  almost  every  subject 
in  the  kingdom ;  it  appears  there  were  certain 
specific  acts  required  of  them  which  were  iUe- 
eal.  Was  any  specific  act  required  of  Mr. 
BailMe  ?  In^  the  next  place  what  was  said  to 
ibe  a  libel  in  them,  was  couched  in  terms 
more  decent  than  any  fh&t  ever  aopeared  be- 
fore in  the  history  of  England,  and  that  could 
not  have  been  proved  without  their  confes- 
sion, which  was  saueezed  out  of  them  by  the 
privy  council,  not  oy  any  proper  process ;  the 
names  of  the  counsel  then  were  Saunders, 
Pollexfcn,  Sommers,  and  others.  Is  this  deli- 
vered in  that  cautious  and  delicate  way? 
Does  it  contain  such  form  and  at  the  same 
time  such  proper  language  for  subjects  in  the 
exertion  of  their  duty,  with  a  due  regard  to 
the  ccmstitutiou  ?  Is  that  Mr.  Baillie*s  case  ? 
No,  on  the  contrary,  every  page  is  full  of  the 
harshest  terms ;  it  is  not  Viierely  stating  them 
as  matters  of  flippancy,  and  a  little  warmth 
which  an  honest  intention  might  naturally 
produce,  but  there  are  innumerable  passages 
expressed  in  the  strongest  terms.  Your  lord- 
ships have  the  book,  and  I  might  put  it  to  the 
test  to  see  whether  the  language  is  not  li- 
bellous. 

I  think  the  construction  put  upon  the  affi- 
davits is  denied  by  Mr.  Erskine  pointedly.  I 
have  not  any  idea  but  in  your  lordships' judg- 
ment Mr.  Stuart  falls  under  a  very  different 
description  from  the  rest;  in  so  far  as  the 
■buildings,  decorations,  and  alterations  of 
buildings  have  been  altered,  it  was  owing  to 
bad  design  that  he  says  the  buildings  have 
been  altered,  and  it  must  be  so  when  you  con- 
vert a  palace  into  an  hospital;  he  says  altera- 
tions have  been  made  because  the  number  of 
pensioners  have  been  enlarged,  and  he  denies 
any  unnecessary  works  bemg  done  with  a 
view  to  enrich  himself,  and  1^  expressly  de- 
clares all  he  has  been  concerned  with  has  been 
in  his  apprehension  necessary. 

Court.  The  charge  against  Mr.  Stuart  is,  he 
wants  to  have  it  a  palace  instead  of  an  Hos- 
pital. 

Mr.  Macdonald,  That  he  wanted  to  4o  so 
for  his  own  profit  I  think  it  is. 


nation  to  the  direction  of  others  was  the  case 
with  all  but  a  few  of  the  particular  managers 
of  the  Hospital,  some  of  whom  are  contrac- 
tors, and  then  that  the  directors  are  from 
want  of  ability  or  integrity,  imfit  to  be  direc- 
tors of  that  Hospital,  and  that  many  other 
frauds  might  be  proved ;  and  it  is  not  proved 
to  be  simply  confined' to  those  persons  who 
are  guilty  of  actual  fraud. 

But  as  for  Mr.  Murphy — to  relieve  Mr.  Bail- 
lie,  whom  they  had  frightened  with  the  terri- 
ble name  of  Mr.  Morgan  the  special  pleader, 
80  as  to  h^ve  almost  thrown  him  into  convulr 
sions, — ^he  compares  his  case  to  the  Seven 
Bishops ;  that  must  be  flattering  indeed  to 
hiin,  to  be  compared  with  seven  bishops  at 
I  should  make  an  apology  for  men- 


Court.  He  has  sworn  positively  he  did  not 
mean  that,  you  will  find  the  words  don't 
cany  it. 

Mr.  Macdonald.  The  words  in  my  appre-' 
hension  chai^  Mr.  Stuart  with  acceding  to 
the  enlargement  of  the  building  to  his  own 
profit,  and  vastly  to  the  injury  of  the  pen- 
sioners of  the  Hospital;  if  I  understand  it,  it 
charges  Mr.  Stuart 

Court.  It  charges  him  with  making  great 
rooms  instead  of  1  odgin^  for  poor  men ;  other 
people  might  be  of  a  difierent  opinion,  and  may 
think  there  should  be  a  mixture  of  both. 

Mr.  Macdonald.    Is  this  no  charge  upon 
Mr.  Stuart,  that  for  the   purpose  of  a  ^ob 
he  recommends  a  friend  to  clean  the  paint- 
ings in  the  hall  ?    he  says  a  friend  of  his 
wUl  clean  it  for  1,000/.    Is  not  that  meant 
as  an  impuftation,  when  it  is  said  it  might 
be  done  tor  250/.?    but  his  proposals  were 
sent  in  two  months  after  Mr.  Stuart's  pro-- 
position  was  accepted.     It  is    one    of  the 
most  beautiful  things  in  this  kingdom,  and  as 
to  the  equity  of  this  recommendation,  if  it 
was  to  be  done  by  the  yard  it  would  amount 
to  four  or  five  times  that  sum ;    besides  it  is 
material  into  whose  hands  it  goes  -.  it  is  not  so 
much  for  the  mere  labour  as  the  price  you  pay 
for  a  man's  art  in  the  business.     Is  it  no 
imputation  upon  Mr.  Stuart  that  he    goes 
hand  in  hand  with  such  persons  f  My  lord, 
Mr    Stuart  swears  he  did  it  not  with  any 
view  but  to  preserve  that  profitable  part  of  the 
building ;    if  it  should  be  considered  as  no 
merit,  certainly  there  is  no  foundation  for 
any  imputation,  and  in  that  case,  as  upon 
liis  part  against  Mr.  Baillie,  I  dare  sa^  he 
would  be  as  well  satisfied  if  it  is  not,  as  if  the 
information  is  filed,  if  no  merit  is  allowed, 

Srovided  there  was  no  imputation.  I  will  not 
etain  your  lordship  upon  a  subject  of  this 
sort  any  longer,  I  will  only  just  bee  leave  to 
state  to  your  lordship  the  state  of  the  suspen- 
sion of  Mr.  Baillie ;  when  so  much  confiision 
had  been  bred  in  the  Hospital  bv  these  dis»- 
putes,  and  in  some  measure  by  tne  publica- 
tion of  Mr.  Baillie,  and  when  the  Hospital 
was  in  confusion,  the  lords  of  the  Admiralty, 
finding  the  business  of  the  Hospital  almost 
stopp^,  they  thought  fit  to  suspend  Mr. 
Baillie,  only  leaving  mm  in  possession  of  his 
apartments :  in  other  cases  they  would  not. 
when  a  person  is  suspended,  have  permitted 
the  use  of  their  apartments  without  a  very 
particular  application.  There  he  remains 
still;  what  will  become  of  Mr.  Baillie  afler 
this  application,  remains  in  the  breasts  of  the 
lords  of  the  Admiralty,  the  directors  have  no- 
thing  to  do  with  the  necessity  the  lords  of  ti^e 
Admiralty  thought  themselves  under  U>  sus* 
pend  Mr.  Baillie.  At  Mr.  Bculhe's  request 
they  thought  fit  to  have  a  committee  to  en« 
quire  into  it,  this  is  appointed  by  a  general 
court,  the  persons  named  were  of  respectable 
characters;  upon  the  enquiry  being  made, 
they  make  their  report,  which  respect  them* 
selves  and  their  ownservants,  the  surveyoTi 


m 


TopeeHng  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenixich*  A.  D.  1778. 


[66 


tbe  dx-penny  receiver,  the  chaplain,*  and  the 
others.    How  was  it  possible  to  do  this  in  any 
other  mode  ?   The  directors  are  in  a  manner 
the  masters,  for  a  time,  of  the  servants  of  the 
Hospital,  their  good  or  ill  conduct  is  to  be 
enimined  by  them,  they  are  the  persons  to 
complain  of  abuses;   could  it  be  by  persons 
out  of  the  Hospital  a  complaint  could  be 
made  ?  Certainly  not    In  the  first  place  they 
would  not  understand  the  business;  in  the 
neit  place  it  is  said  it  was  not  proper  to  com^ 
plain  to  these  boards,  or  to  bring  it  before 
them,  for  Mr.  Baillie  says  the  directors  are 
accused,  and  they  are  not  to  be  made  judges. 
It  is  true  every  one  of  the  directors  were  ac- 
cused in  a  lump,  they  were  accused  of  .sur- 
reoderinf  their  powers  to  a  few  that  do  at- 
tend, ana  sufficing  them  to  waste  the  finances 
of  the  Hospital  in  every  way  they  could  for 
their  own  profit.     It  was  impossible  that  could 
be  the  case;  they  made  a  report  upon  this 
enquky,  and  I  tnink  they  falsify  every  part 
if  not  the  whole  of  these  charts.    My  lord, 
bow  was  it  possible  a  publication  of  this  sort 
should  make  its  appearance  at  the  Hospital, 
and  not  extend  itseltmuch  farther ;  then  pub- 
lishing it  at  such  a  critical  moment,  it  was 
readering  it  impossible  for  the  servants  of  tHe 
Hospital  to  carry  on  their  respective  business 
ID  their  departments,  when  they  were  charged 
vith  supplying  the  men  with  bad  food,  bad 
raiment,  and  every  tiling  else  wrong,  every 
species  of  charge  that  could  disgust  these  men 
that  are  entitled  to  national  protection  and 
compas^n ;    these    gentlemen    have    had 
strange  pictures  drawn  of  them,  and  some 
very  ably;   Mr.  Mylne  and  Mr.  Cooke  in 
particular.     Mr.  Mylne  is  as  ingenious  an 
artist  as  any  can  be,  and  when  Mr.  Mylne  and 
Mr.  Stuart  are  attacked  in  such  a  way  as  this, 
charged  with  such  a  breach  of  duty  to  this 
Hospital,  and  those  thinzs  imputed  to  them 
that  might   diminish   them  much   in   the 
esteem  of  every  body,  and  more  especially 
the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  has  been  treated  as  a  man 
of  his  profession  ought  not  to  be  ;    finding 
these  men  stigmatiz^  in  this  way,  it  was  im- 
possible for  the  directors  to  do  otherwise  tlian 
they  did.    Your  lordship  sees  the  hbel  itself 
isfer  beyond  any  comment  upon  it;  if  your 
lordship  sho\dd  think  it  of  an  injurious  nature 
and  libellous,  your  lordship  will  make  this  rule 
absolute,  as  the  suspension  of  Mr.  Baillie  can 
"oake  DO  difference  as  to  these  gentlemen, 
vho  are  accused  of  doing  wrong  as  members 
of  a  public  body  in  their  public  papacity. 

Mr,  Dunning  made  an  apolo^  for  troubling 
^  Court,  as  he  observed  sufficient  had  been 
»idby  the  gentlemen  before  him,  to  explain 
tl»e  ground  upon  which  they  hoped  the  rule 
would  be  mane  absolute,  ana  he  should  sp^e 
ninaself  the  trouble  of  saying  more,  as^it  would 
al  become  him  to  trespass  upon  the  time  of 

lerTaiU  of  the  Hoapital  are  a)»»  di- 


*T1ieie 
**"*»»•    Orig.  Ed, 


VOL  XXI, 


the  Court,  especially  considering  the  [opinion 
he  entertained  of  the  matter  and  abilities  the 

fentlemen  had  shewn  who  went  before  him ; 
e  should  therefore  leave  it  to  his  friend  Mr. 
Morgan,  who  stood  in  a  particular  situation  to 
explain  the  matter  more  fully  in  defence  of 
himself  and  his  cUents.* 

The  Earl  of  Mansfield  : 

There  has  ^eat  heat  appeared  upon 
this  motion,  and  this  motion  has  taken  up  a 
great  deal  of  time  unnecessarily,  and  it  is  not 
to  be  wondered  at,  for  the  arguments  have 
gone  into  a  variety  of  matter,  not  at  all  before 
the  Court,  and  have  chargecl  persons  who  are 
not  here  to  defend  themselves,  and  not  being 
here  they  have  no  opportunity  to  reply  to 
them,  upon  vague  assertions,  not  used  upon 
one  side  more  than  another.  Mr.  Morgan 
has  bee^  even  with  the  chaises  of  that  sort 
without  any  affidavit  at  all ;  but  it  is  charged 
by  affidavits  by  way  of  answer,  to  which  there 
has  been  no  opportunity  of  making  a  reply, 
'and  it  has  opened  a  large  field,  which  we  can- 
not possibly  go  into. 

This  is  an  application  for  an  information  for 
a  libel,  and  it  has  been  truly  said,  it  is  an  ap- 
plication for  an  extraordinary  interposition  of 
the  Court,  and  that  interposition  must  be 
guided  by  all  the  circumstances  of  the  appli- 
cation, and  the  answer  that  is  given  to  it. 

It  aon*t  follow  because  tfaft  matter  is  a 
libel;  it  don't  follow,  because  that  libel  is 
published,  that  therefore  this  Court  should 
grant  an  information. 

The  parties  have  a  right  to  go  to  a  grand 
jurv  by  way  of  indictment.  They  have  a 
right  to  bring  an  action;  and  therefore  the 
Court  always  weighs  the  circumstances,  and 
particularly  the  state  of  the  case  l^d  before 
them  when  the  application  is  made. 

And  it  is  expected  when  the  application  is 
made,  that  the  true  and  full  state  of  the  case 
should  be  then  laid  before  the  Court;  because 
if  there  is  that  in  it  kept  behind,  which,  if 
it  had  been  disclosed,  would  have  prevented 
the  rule  fi-om  being  made  at  all ;  all  the  ex-^ 
pence  that  is  occasioned  by  it,  is  owing  to 
those  who  have  kept  any  thing  behind. 

In  this  book,  as  it  is  called,  I  have  no  doubt 
but  there  is  a  great  deal  of  that^  which,  in  its 
own  nature,  is  defamatory  and  hbellous. 

It  charges  these  officers  with  fraud,  with 
abuse  of  office,  with  incapacity,  with  neglect- 
ing the  interest  of  the  Hospital,  and  breaking 
the  duly  of  their  trust  i  I  nave  no  doubt  but 

*  N.  B.  See  Mr.  Mor)|ran's  evidence  in  the  Hooto 
of  Lords  IB  defence  of  himself  and  client^. 

As  four  eiument  connitet  of  disUngnished  merit 
and  abilities  had  followed  each  other  on  the  part  of 
the  prosecotors,  it  it  thoaght  unnecesaar y  to  lengthen 
these  proceedings,  already  too  ToluminonSp  wiUi  tho 
speeches  of  the  rest  of  their  ooansel,  for  however 
ingcnions  their  argoventa  might  have  been,  tbet 
were  eTideoUy  onfooBded  in  iact  and  law,  tbej  aro 
therefore  omitted  for  the  si^e  of  brevity. ^On^« 
Edit, 

F. 


67] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  ofCapkin  Thomas  BaUlie, 


C0S 


that  in  its  own  nature,  many  of  the  particular 
parts  pointed  out]  bv  those  who  apply,  are  in 
their  own  nature,  defamatory  and  libellous. 
And  wit}i  regard  to  Mr.  Stuart  and  Mylne^ 
whom  captain  Baillie  vindicates  by  his  affi- 
davit, and  says,  he  never  meant  to  charge, 
personally  with  doing  any  thing  wrong ;  yet 
most  undoubtedly  there  is  an  insinuation  in 
it ;  no  man  can  read  it  that  don't  understand 
it  as  they  do. 

If  a  charge  is  made,  that  they  that  had  ac- 
coimts  to  pass,  were  sitting  as  directors;  it 
certainly  infers  they  made  a  bad  use  of  sitting 
upon  their  own  accounts. 

If  a  charge  h  made  of  the  computation 
being  much  too  large,  with  respect  to  a  man 
that  was  to  have  the  paintings  of  the  Hospital 
retouched  and  coloured  for  uie  benefit  of^the 
Isociety;  it  carries  certainly  an  inference  of 
something  wrong  and  improper  in  it. 

Tims  it  stands  in  general^  barely  upon  the 
view  of  the  subject  matter  of  this  book. 

With  regard  to  the  publication,  it  is  most 
certainly  true,  the  distinction  taken  at  the  bar 
is  sound  and  well  founded.  In  a  proceeding 
(in  a  court  of  justice)  of  the  parties^  that  are 
under  the  control  ot  the  Court,  notning  can 
be  a  libel ;  because  if  it  is  scandalous  or  im- 
proper, the  Court  where  thai  matter  is  uttered 
or  made  use  of,  have  it  in  their  power  to  re- 
primand, to  censure,  and  to  punisu. 

And  I  remember  very  well  that  case  alluded 

to  by  Mr.  Lee,  of  sir. Astley  and  Mr. 

Young;  that  was  ftn  affidavit  of  a  mktler 
which  was  scandalous  indeed,  but  it  was  a 
charge  made  use  of  seriously,  for  the  opinion 
of  the  Court,  and  read  in  a  discussion  here, 
for  a  rule  of  the  Coiut  to  be  made  upon  it. 
And  if  the  Court  had  had  a  mind  to  have 
taken  it  up,  they  might  liave  censured  the 
maker  of  the  arodavit,  or  attorney,  or  any 
one  else  concerned  in  it.  But  it  was  not  the 
subject  matter  of  an  action  or  prosecution^  if 
it  is  reaily  so  used  in  the  course  of  a  judicial, 
proceeding. 

But  if  the  course  of  proceeding  is  a  colour 
only,  I  agree  with  Mr.  Lee,  that  will  only  ag- 
gravate the  offence,  by  making  use  of  a  colour 
of  justice  to  protect  it. 

I  recollect  the  case  of  a  man,  one  Perry, 
who  was  concerned  in  the  matter  of  Dageu- 
ham  Breach :  he  printed  a  brief  in  the  coun- 
try, where  he  cnarged  his  adversary  with 
perjury  in  his  answer.  Lord  Macclesfield 
committed  him  for  it ;  that  is  not  in  a  proper 
course  of  proceeding  for  you  make  use  of  all 
the  abuse  you  can  in  your  brief  agcdnst  your 
lidversary. 

I  remember  a  cause,  where  from  the  length 
of  the'  proceedings,  it  was  thought  necessary 
jto  print  it.  The  case  of  Penn  and  Balti^iore. 
It  was  a  voluminous  brief:  all  the  counsel 
Iiad  printed  briefs  in  it.  Inat  could  not  be 
libeilous,  if  it  had  been  so  charged  upon  the 
other  side;  because  it  was  a  proceeding,  boni 
Jide,  in  the  way  of  justice,  not  a  colour  to  con* 
vey  scandal.  And  there  are  many  otlier  cases 
where  the  proceedings  have  been  printed. 


In  the  House  of  Lords  they  print  tiieir  case#. 
If  it  was  matter  of  scandal,  the  House  of 
Lords  would  animadvert  upon  that ;  ^nd  th^ 
counsel  concerned  in  the  catise  always  ^gn 
the  case,  that  they  may  be  answemble  tor 
what  it  contained  m  it.    They  proceed  in  thfe 
House  of  Commons  with  pnnted  cases,   de- 
livered to  the  members ;  but  that  is  really  and 
seriously  with  a  view  to  tiie  cause,  and  it 
comes  under  their  protection.    BUt  if,  in  the 
time  of  the  recess  of  parliament,  while  there 
are  no  proceedings,  and  under  cover  of  an 
application  for   ildress  to  bo^  Hou^^  of 
Parliament,  scandal  and  defamation  is  cbtk- 
veyed,  it  is  agunst  law ;  and  such  printing  and 
publishing  would  kiot  be  within  the  rule. 

Now  let  us  Newborn  this  application  is  made 
by.  It  is  made  by  the  several  persons  con- 
cerned as  directors  it  transacting  tlie  afllurs  of 
the  Hospital.  They  state,  before  they  came 
here,  they  themselves  hsuA  taken  this  pamphlet 
up,  in  an  application  to  the  governors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  as  a  matter  upon  -vdiiih 
the  governors  ought  to  proceed  in  vindicaik>ti 
of  tneir  characters;  and  stating^  that  they 
ought  to  proceed  in  the  examination  with  re- 
gard to  the  abuses  themselves. 

In  their  own  natujre  as  governors  (let  'who 
would  be  blameable  if  there  was  a  foun- 
dation for  it)  they  ought  to  proceed  with 
respect  to  the  calumniator,  and  tney  ought  to 
maice  a  proper  enquiij,  to  see  whether  therfe 
was  any  foundation  for  it  or  iiot  The  pre- 
sent defendant  is  an  object  of  the  jtirisdiction 
of  the  general  court,  for  he  happens  to  h^ 
lieutenant-governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
and  as  lieutenant-governor  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  to  the  extent  of  all  the  appointments, 
and  the  emoluments,  and  the  place  itself  he 
held — ^he  is  the  subject  of  the  jurisdiction 
of  tlie  governors. 

I  see,  by  the  charterj^  the  management  of 
the  whole  corporation  is  in  the  governors; 
but,  from  the  number  of  governors,  and  the 
persons  of  whom  they  were  composed,  the 
charter  supposes,  the  greatest  numbo*  would 
not  attend;  and  therefore,  the  charter  prcmdes 
a  standing  conlttiitCee,  and  they  are  the  direc- 
tors ;  and  not  only  that,  but  it  provides  for 
geneMl  <JOwrts. 

^'  And  we  hereby  direct,  that  the  mcimbers 
of  the  corporation,  or  so  many  of  them  as 
conTeniently  can,  idiall,  fipom  time  to  time. 
m«et  together,  at  some  convenient  place,  ana 
that  they,  or  any  Seven  or  more  of  tnetn  shall, 
and  are  hereby  appointed  to  be  a  ^Mnemi 
court,  whereof  our  hi^h  admiral  foe  the  tima 
being,  or  any  three  ot  the  •commissioneFs  for 
holding  the  office  of  kn:d  high  axlmiral/wlr 
trcfasUrer,  or  any  thrte  .c6inmissi<)ners  of  our 
trea^ry,  or  Any  three  or  more  lonls  ofour 
tirivy  council  shall  be  of  the  ^aDitim",  and 
'Uiey  are  to  meet  from  tlme'to  tithe. 

The  brdsof  the  Admiralty  llave  apotitr^f 
grantlnG;  places,  and  displacing,  but  under  the 
oontfouIoftbegoveiiiQiui  aid  tb«reis1his 
express  dayse  I 


01        rapfeting  tie  HqyatHotpUal  of  Greefnuch.        A.  O.  1778. 


[70 


*^  Pnmded  always,  all  proceedings  whatso- 
ever  rebtins  to  the  ouuis^eiBent  ot  the  affiurs 
f^the  said  Hospital  be  laia  before  the  general 
oourt,  to  be  held  as  hereaa  before  mentioned, 
and  the  same  ai«  to  be  ^t  all  times  subject  to 
their  controul,  to  whom  we  do  by  the^  pre- 
itwts  give  full  power  and  authority  tp  cootroul 
accQjr&agly." 

Now^  now  did  the  case  stand  at  the  time 
that  this  applicadon  was  made  to  the  Court  ? 
The  gentlemen  complaining,  had  applied  to  a 
gEDeral  court  of  the  governors  to  take  tnat 
^adter  uqder  their  cognizance.  The  general 
court  of  i^e  governors  had  appointed  a  com-; 
miltee  to  fsaxnine  into  it  T\i^  committee 
^ad  goae  though  and  made  their  report; 
Which  report  was  to  be  the  foiu^tion  for  ^e 
^ftber  acting  of  the  court  of  governors. 

The  a&davit  upon  whicb  the  rule  was  made, 
as  1  observe,  was  sworn  upon  the  6th  of  July, 
Wf^  m  ths^  affidavit,  whicn  was  sworn  the  (jth 
i^  Su^y  ii^y  take  notice,  that  the  committee 
b4  jgPi^  tnrou^  the  whole  business,  and 
kftd  beard  ilL  ana  ha^  finished  the  whole,  as 
lipon  the  Tuesday  preceding.  Now^  what 
was  the  representfition,  when  the  rule  was  ob- 
tained ?  Why,  that  the  defendant  had  acknow- 
ledged himself  to  be  ttie  publisher.  Not  a 
^Ford  of  the  manner  of  the  publication,  and 
jet  the  criminaiitv,  or  the  innocence,  aiid  jus- 
tification of  piibfishing  the  libel^  depends  upon 
the  occasion,  the  motive^  the  view,  the  intent, 
and  the  purpose  to  which  ^at  app^cation  was 
made. 

Suppose  ^  officer  of  this  court  reads  in  a 
.^tfliciu  procee<£ng9  9>  libel— that  is  no  publi- 
cation in  the  ciimmal  sense  of  the  words.    He 
caniea  it  to  his  counsel  in  this  case ;  that  is 
no  publication  ip  a  criminal  sense.    To  apply 
io  any  jurisdiction,  proper  to  take  the  mattg: 
into  con^eration,  is  no  publication,  provide^ 
leatty  ^d  bqnA^de^  he  did  not  concur  with 
pubhshmg  it  to  all  the  world ;  and  there  is  not 
a  pretence  in  all  the  affidavits  (and  they  have 
}N3ca  all  looked  into)ther^  is  not  a  pretence  of 
fibe  of  them  ever  being  bought,  or  any  being 
f^diibiled  at  a  stationer's  or  pamphlet  shop. 
And  the  defendant,  Baillie,  swears  positively, 
they  were  never  by  him  given  but  to  the  go- 
vernors, in  an  application  for  redress,  and  tnat 
he  did  not  deliver  them  to  the  governors  till 
hue  had  delivered  one  to  the  first  lord  of  the 
^Admiralty,  who,  to  be  sure,  as  fir^t  lord  of  the 
'Adnqoralty,  is  one  necesisary  to  be    of  the 
guonm  at  every  general  court,  and  he  was 
with  him  ten  daj's  Wore  he  ever  published 
k;  and  if  it  had  been  put  in  away  of^redress  it 
would  not  have  b,een  published  at  all.    And 
he  swears  ailerwards,  till  he  gave  it  to  hb 
counsel,  to  liave  advice  upon  this  prosecution, 
and  to  one  or  two  ^ends  privatel^  for  advice, 
he  never  gave  it,  or  nublished  it,  in  an  v  man- 
ner whatsoever,  ana  to  this  day  he  nas  not 
pi4>Ushed  it. 

It  15  said,  this  is  an  ^biguous  tenp,  his 
having  owned  the  pubUcation.  He  did,  sub 
9wlo;  but  the  Cj9urt  should  fiave  bee^  told  of 


this  sort  of  publication  to  gukle  our  discretion 
upon  the  circumstances  of  ^e  publication, 
wrth  respect  t^  what  we  were  to  do  *  if  he 
did  confess  xL  it  is  equivocally  laid  before 
us :  for  if  we  had  been  told  it  was  only  given 
to  the  governors  for  redress  ;*  that  upon  the 
application  of  those  that  applied  tpr  the  rule, 
me  governors  had  taken  it  up,  aiid  it  was  thei) 
aepend^ing  before  tl^em,  and  a  report  made  by 
the  committee,  it  would  have  been  worth  con- 
sideration, whether  the  court  would  have 
mac^e  any  rule  at  all.  And  this  notice  in  th^ 
affidavit^  with  regard  to  the  committee,  is 
all  artflilly  put ;  for  it  artfully  leads  one  to  un- 
derstand  the  question  is  another  thing ;  and 
they  leave  the  excuse  for  not  coming  sooner ; 
but  ^he  stronger  part  of  the  case  is  this;  they 
tell  you  they  did  not  know  of  the  report,  ft 
cannot  be  supposed  they  did  not  know  of  the 
report. 

Mr.  Morgan,  My  lord,  they  did  not  kno^ 
of  the  report. 

'EsltI' of  Mansfield.  Sit  down— I  don't  take 
the  information.  No  man  of  them  but  must 
know  the  opinion  of  the  boan).  If  what  you 
say  is  true,  many  articles  are  not  proved,  and 
others  are  proved  against  the  affidavits.  Could 
any  body  not  jcriow  the  general  tendency  of 
the  report?  If  they  did  not  know  it  in  the 
words  (besides  it  bears  date  the  6th  of  August^ 
they  must  know  the  general  tendency,  and 
they  must  know,  from  the  nature  of  the  re^ 
poit,  It  was  impossible  for  the  court  of  go- 
vernors, i4pon  tnai  report,  not  to  do,  at  least, 
l^hat  they  have  done ;  they  would  have  been 
warranted  to  have  done  more.  , 

As  to  the  appointing  this  committee,  I 
see  no  ipputation  whatsoever ;  none ;  for  Mr. 
Baillie  in  nis  own  affidavit  says,  that  many  of 
the  directors  were  worthy,  honourable,  re- 
spectable men ;  and  his  only  objection  is, 
^ney  did  not  attend.  Y^hy  ?  That  is  the  case 
we  all  know  of  many  very  worthy  respectable 
men  that  are  governors  of  many  hospitals  in 
this  city,  and  trustees  in  many  public  chari- 
ties ;  from  other  business  they  cannot  always 
attend.  The^  don't  look  upoi;  that  as  a 
failure  in  their  duty  j  they  leave  it  to  others, 
unless  they  areparticulariy  called  upon  to  act 
as  directors.  Tne  only  objection  is,  they  djd 
not  attend. 

Such  a  general  charge  would  not  prevent 
any  man  that  did  come'  and  attend  upon  the 
investigation  to  do  his  duty  that  day ;  add 
there  is  not  one,  by  the  book,  upon  whom 
there  is  the  least  charge  or  imputation  thrown ; 
not  one;  as  appears  by  the  affidavit  of  the  de- 
fendant, which  is  very  strong,  considering  the 
asperity  and  warmth  of  those  affidavits,  in 
which,  they  have  behaved  not  very  judicious- 
ly upon  tins  occasion,  for  the  less  warinth  that 
appears  upon  these  occasions  the  bettor.  But 
they  have  thought  proper  to  introduce  a  great 
deal  of  warmth  mto  them. 

There  is  not  one  upon  which  there  is  any 

•objection  thrown  out  except  Mr.  Barker ;  not 

one  of  the  coimsel  have  thrown  out  any  oh- 


71] 


18  GEORGE  111.    '      The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  SaOGe,  [7S 


jection  to  any  of  the  committee  except  Mr.' 
Barker;  and,  I  thmk,  they  complaiA,  sir 
Meyrick  Burrell  did  not  attend  but  once ;  and 
Mr.  Cust  was  absent  but  once  (that  is  the  last 
day)  but  there  is  no  otlicr  imputation  on  their 
proceedings. 

Then  such  a  committee,  sitting  seven  days, 
report,  they  heard  all  that  he  could  offer; 
they  go  through  an  examination  of  every  offi- 
cer charged  by  him,  and  into  every  particular ; 
they  CO  through  the  indecency  or  his  beha- 
viour before  them  (which  was  highly  impro- 
per; he  should  have  complained  m  a  proper 
wav)  and,  having  gone  through  all  that,  it  was 
laid  before  the  general  court. 

I  agree  with  Mr.  Lee,  it  was  imj^ossible  the 
^neral  court  should  not  animadvert  upon  it, 
if  that  report  is  true*  and  if  it  was  true,  they 
could  not  do  otherwise  than  censure  any  man* 
that  appeared  in  the  light  of  a  groundless  car- 
lumniator  of  all  those  people. 

Then  how  does  that  agree  with  this  appli- 
cation? You  came  with  Siis  report,  which  is 
to  be  the  foundation  of  a  farther  proceeding, 
at  the  instant  you  were  seeking  redress  from 
them. 

If  you  had  said,  we  proceed  before  the  go- 
vernors, and  mean  to  nave  him  censured  by 
the  governors,  he  being  the  subject  of  their 
jurisdiction,  the  court  would  never  h*  ;e  grant- 
ed an  information. 

A  case  not  unsimilar,  occurs  now  this 
moinent.  Suppose  a  fellow  of  a  college,  in 
application  to  a  visitor,  libels  the  whole  so- 
ciety, and  they  complain  to  the  visitor  of  that 
libel ;  .and  the  visitor  is  of  opinion,  though  in 
the  shape  of  a  complaint,  it  is  an  infamous, 
scandalous^  ^undless  calumny,  and  he  ex- 
pels him  for  It,  and  the  fellows  come  to  this 
court  for  an  information,  would  they  grant  it? 
Certainly  not. 

The  expulsion  was  the  proper  punishment 
for  members  of  such  societies,  as  they  suffer  in 
the  capacity  in  which  they  commit  the  injury. 

He  nas  mjured,  as  licutenant-govemor,  his 
fellow  members  of  the  society ;  it  comes  be- 
fore all  the  members;  they  think  proper  to 
punish  him ;  that  is  the  proper  judicature. 

Then  it  was  wrong  in  them  to  suppress  this 
KTOund.  It  was  wrong  in  them  to  come  till 
the  censure  was  past.  And  the  moment  they 
had  him  punished  in  this  way,  tiiey  should 
have  given  notice  and  dropped  the  mforma- 
tion. 

Upon  that  ground,  independent  of  an^  other, 
I  am  of  opinion,  this  rule  should  be  discharg- 
ed, and  discharged  with  costs.* 

*  Tliat  is,  aboat  one  half  of  tie  expenoe  acdmlljr 
incvired.  Orix.  iJi— In  2  Espinaue'f  Niri  Prin», 
p.  10,  if  a  very  ahort  nolo  of  Uiii  case.  See  also  Mr. 
George*ii  TVeatife  on  the  oiTenoe  of  Libel,  obapter  4, 
"  on  the  motiTe  to  the  act  which  most  have  been  oom- 
MJUcd  with  regard  to  tlie  Hbel." 


PROCEEDINGS 

IV  THE 

HOUSE    OF   LORDS, 

Upon  as  EyatJiRT  into  the  Abusxi» 
AND  Mismanagement  of  the  RoyaXt 
Hospital  vor  Seamen  at  Grsen^ 

WICH.* 

On  Thursday,  March  11,  1779,  certain  pa^ 
pers  relating  to  Greenwich  HospitaL  which- 
nad  been  moved  for  by  the  duke  otRicnmond,, 
were  presented :  whereupon  his  grace,  in  a 
speech  of  some  length,  stated  certain  abuses^ 
which,  according  to  captain  Baillie's  account,.- 
existed  in  the  management  and  conduct  of  the 
Hospital;  and  particularly, 

1.  The  leaving  out  essential  words  and 
whole  passages  in  the  charter,  and  adding  new 
powers  and  authorities,  without  the  know- 
ledge, privity,  or  consent  of  a  general  court  of 
governors. 

2.  The  violation  of  the  original  institution^ 
by  the  appointment  of  officers  in  the  Hos- 
pital, who  are  not  seafaring  men. 

3.  The  appointment  of  such  officers  in  the 
council  of  tne  house  to  govern  seamen,  of 
whose  disposition,  temper,  and  manners,  they 
were  totally  ignorant. 

4.  The  admission  of  a  number  of  clerks, 
deputies,  and  servants,  who  are  not  seafsirin^ 
men,  into  apartments  in  the  Hospital,  ana 
some  of  them  into  the  wards  of  the  pen- 
sioners. 

5.  That  the  directors  have  given  fresh  con- 
tracts to  Peter  Mellish,  the  contracting  butcher, 
who  had  been  convicted  of  fraud;  that  whilst 
another  action  was  pending,  they  gave  him  a 
second  contract,  and  a  third  contract,  afier 
they  had  compounded  fifty  other  fraudulent 
breaches  for  100/. 

6.  That  money,  instead  of  provisions,  is 
given  by  the  directors  to  above  1,000  pen- 
sioners, which  encourages  drunkenness  and 
disorder  in  the  Hospital. 

7.  That  this  matter  had  been  represented 
as  an  abuse^  by  the  unanimous  consent  of  the 
council  of  the  House,  to  the  directors,  without 
effect. 

8.  That  money  arising  from  such  savins^, 
in  giving  less  money  than  the  value  of  the 
provisions,  together  with  the  mulcts  and 
checks  upon  the  pensioners,  create  a  fund, 
called  the  Charity  Stock,  out  of  which  addi*- 
tional  salaries  are  given  to  v&rious  civil  offi- 
cers, who  have  votes  in  laying  on  those 
mulcts. 

9.  That  in  many  Mrts  of  the  clothing,  such 
as  shoes,  stockings,  linen,  beds,  washing,  &c. 
there  are  great  abuses. 

10.  That  the  provisions  have  been  fre- 
quently represented  by  the  council    to  the 



*  From  the  '  Solemn  Appeal/  ko. 


IS]        rapeetvig  the  Royai  BotpiUi  at  Greewmeh.         A.  O.  1778. 


[74 


board  of  directors  to  be  bad,  by  the  mal- 
pncdces  of  the  receiying  officers  and  of  the 
contractors,  without  proper  attention  on  the 
|igit  of  the  directors. 

11.  That  the  beer  in  particular  has  been 
iband  so  bad,  as  to  oblige  the  council  at  one 
time  to  start  4,000  gallons,  as  unfit  for  use,  to 
prevent  its  being  served  to  the  men,  without 
any  punishment  being  inRicted  on  the  brewer, 
or^toy  of  the  civ]>  officers,  whose  duty  it  was 
to  superintend  the  brewery. 

12.  That  the  directors  have  given  1,000/. 
by  private  agreement  for  cleaning  the  pictures 
ID  the  Painted  Hall,  without  advertising  for 
proposals  by  contract,  in  order  to  ascertain  the 
value  of  that  public  work. 

13.  That  the  danger  of  fire,  for  want  of 
better  regulation,  has  not  been  attended  to, 
by  which  neglect  a  most  dreadful  misfortune 
bas  happeneo,  ivhereby  the  Hospital  will  not 
be  enabled,  in  this  moment  of  war,  to  provide 
fax  so  many  pensioners,  as  with  proper  pre- 
caution it  mi^t  have  done,  besides  the  great 
ZDGonvenience  brou^t  upon  the  pensioners, 
and  expence  to  the  Hospital. 

Other  noble  lords  spoke ;  afler  which,  the 
House  adjourned  till  tne  next  day. 

On  Friday  the  12th  of  March,  the  Lords 
met  again,  and  the  order  of  the  day  b^ing 
read  for  the  House  to  resolve  itself  into  a  com- 
mittee, the  Lord  Chancellor  left  the  wool- 
sack, and  lord  Scarsdale  took  the  chair,  a 
great  number  of  papers,  which  .had  been  pre- 
sented relative  to  the  subject,  were  read. 
'  The£.  of  Sandwich  then  rose,  and  said,  as  he 
had  found  himself  mistaken  in  a  particular  to 
^ch  he  had  spoken  the  preceding  day,  he  bes- 

gid  leave  to  take  the  opportunity  of  that  flul 
ouse  to  recal  his  assertion.  The  noble  duke, 
in  his  opening  speech,  had  mentioned  the  no- 
gociation  between  captain  Baillie's  counsel 
and  the  Admiralty,  and  in  his  reply  he  had 
declared  that  the  negociation  took  place  sub- 
sequent to  captain  ISaillie's  dismission ;  the 
feet,  he  recollected,  happened  prior  to  Mr. 
Baillie's  dismission  firom  his  office  of  lieute- 
nantrgovemor ;  the  error,  his  lordship  de- 
clared, arose  naerely  from  torsetfulness,  and  as 
he,  upon  recollection,  found  he  was  wrone. 
he  thought  it  incumbent  upon  him,  as  well 
oat  of  respect  to  their  lordships,  as  in  point  of 
candour  uid  truth,  to  acknowledge  it,  m  order 
that  an  improper  idea  might  not  be  enter- 
tained, either  as  to  his  attempting  to  chm^ 
the  noble  duke  with  having  stated  a  false  fact, 
or  that  he  should  rest  anv  part  of  his  reply  to 
the  matters  of  charge,  which  might  come  out 
ffl  the  course  of  the  enquiry,  upon  false 
grounds. 

The  Duke  of  Richmond  agreed,  that  it  was 
perfectly  feir  ftwr  tjie  noble  Iom,  upon  his  better 
T^lcction  to  recal  any  of  his  assertions,  and 
*i9o  that  it  was  extremely  candid  to  do  it  in 
«o  early  a  stage  of  the  business ;  he  only 
^|md  their  lordships  to  remember,  that  upon 
^  contradktion  oi  the  assertion  relative  to 


the  negociation  with  captain  Baillie's  counsel, 
the  noble  lord  had  built  an  inference,  and  an 
argument  which  extended  a  great  way,  he 
having  flatly  and  directly  said,  that  one  asser- 
tion was  false,  it  was  very  natural  to  imagine, 
might  induce  their  lordships  to  conclude,  that 
all  or  most  of  the  rest  were  equally  false, 
which  he  had  also  asserted ;  but  as  the  noble 
lord  had  now  called  to  mind  the  real  state  of 
the  negociation,  and  acknowledged  it ;  for  a» 
the  latter  grew  out  of  the  former,  they  ought 
certainly  to  fall  together,  and  the  one  to  be 
given  I  p  as  well  as  the  other. 

His  ^race  said,  he  was  at  a  loss  in  what 
manner  to  proceed,  as  to  the  discussion  of  tiie 
several  articles  of  enquiry,  which  was,  in  fiwt, 
their  true  name,  as  they  were  not  matters  of 
charge,  but  matters  of  parliamentary  enquiry. 
He  oeclared,  he  was  perfectly  indifferent  as  to 
the  mode  of  proceeding,  and  submitted  it  to 
their  lordships,  whether  it  should  be,  by  di- 
viding the  articles,  and  entering  upon  an  exa- 
mination of  evidence,  in  defence  of  each  se- 
p^ately,  concluding  entirely,  and  determining 
upon  one  before  another  was  begun,  or  by 
hearing  evidence  generally  to  the  whole,  and 
drawing  an  ultimate  conclusion  from  the  evi- 
dence at  lai^ge.  His  only,  wish  was  to  adopt 
that  line  ana  rule  of  procedure,  which  should 
tend  best  to  render  the  enquiry  short,  clear, 
certain,  easy  to  comprehend,  ana  conclusive. 

This  candid  appeal  to  the  committee  gave 
rise  to  a  warm  deDate,  which  lasted  above  an 
hour.  The  Lord  Chancellor,  the  dukes  of 
Richmond  and  Grafton,  lord  Camden,  lord 
Mansfield,  and  lord  Ravensworth,  taking  a 
part  in  it. 

The  Lord  Chancellor  and  lord  Mansfield 
contended,  that  the  proper  mode  of  proceed- 
ing would  be  to  hear  the  whole  evidence  to 
the  whole  charge,  (for  a  charge  in  effect  it 
was,  though  the  noble  duke  did  not  urge  it  as 
a  matter  of  accusation) ;  then  for  the  noble 
lord  on  behalf  of  himself,  or  any  person  he 
might  think  affected  by  what  came  out  in  the 
course  of  the  enquiry,  to  state  his  defence, 
and  tliat  their  lordships  would  by  sucH  a  mode 
of  procedure  be  best  enabled*  to  judge  of  the 
entire  matter. 

Lord  Camden,  the  duke  of  Grafton,  lord 
Ravensworth.  and  the  duke  of  Richmond, 
were  of  a  different  opinion.  They  thought  it 
would  be  an  endless  matter  to  go  generally 
into  evidence,  contending  that  perspicuity, 
and  an  endeavour  to  renoer  the  evidence  on 
each  point  comprehensible  to  every  capacity, 
and  impressive  on  every  memory,  were  cer- 
tsunly  the  principal  objects  to  be  desired. 
That  if  one  article  was  not  concluded  upon, 
and  finally  disposed  of  before  a  second  was 
begun  to  be  enquured  into,  the  enquiry  might 
last  for  ever;  that  the  minds  of  the  noble 
lords  in  general  would  be  peirplexed,  and  it 
would  be  absolutely  impossible  either  to  dis- 
criminate the  nature,  or  the  degree  of  evi- 
dence adduced,  in  support  of  one  articki  or  ia 


75] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  tfCkqfiain  Tkomoi  BaOUe^  [79 


any  shape  whatever,  to  decide  with  truth  aud^ 
precision  upon  the  whole. 

In  the  course  of  this  debate, 

Lord  ManyUld  s^id,  that  the  impending 
enquiry  had  been  brought  in  by  a.  noble  duke, 
yffho  had  very  candidly  declared,  that  he  took 
it  up  merelv  upon  public  grounds;  that  the 
noble  duke  had  flirther  acknowledged,  that  he 
did  not  preten4  to  say  the  assertions  were 
founded,  or  to  vouch  for  the  truth  of  any  one 
of  them,  but  that  he  thought  they  were  of 
suBicient  importance  to  oul  for  a  parlia- 
mentary examination.  His  lordship  went  9n 
to  declare,  that  as  a  material  part  of  the  ob- 
je^  arose  from  captain  Baillie's  book,  which 
contained  a  v^ety  of  aggravated  charges  of 
^use  of  the  charter  of  the  Hospital,  ax^  of 
mismanagement  in  different  shapes,  which 
tended  to  affect  and  cri^nsite  many  persons 
who  were  absent,  thouffh  chiefly  centering 
in  an  accusation  on  a  noble  lord  who  had  a 
seat  in  that  House,  he  did  not  doubt  but  thcif 
lordships  would  take  cape  of  the  absent  par- 
ties, and  reg^d  them  as  men  accused  fund  un- 
heard, and  that  in  the  whole  proceeding  of 
the  enquiry,  they  would  conduct  the  business 
with  candour  and  fairness  respecting  the  noble 
person  who  was  a  member  of  the  house, 
which,  he  contended,  they  could  not  do  wiith- 
put  hearing  the  whole  of  the  evidence  re- 
specting eveiy  part  of  the  object  of  'enquiry, 
since  their  ultimate  conclusion  must  necessa- 
rily be  general,  and  consequently  be  founded 
OB  the  totality  of  the  matter  adduced  in  evi- 
dence, both  in  support  of  the  charges,  and  in 
deience  of  the  parties  accused. 

In  reply  to  this, 

Lord  Camden  protested  against  any  idea  of 
the  present  enquiry  being  founded  on  a  per- 
«Muu  attack,  and  hoped  .tha^  no  noUie  lord 
'would  consiaer  it  in  so  odious  and  {NTQludicial 
a  point  of  view ;  be  solemnly  disdaioQMBd every 
auggestion  or  intention  of  attack  on  any  man, 
or  a/xy  set  of  men^  declaring,  that  the  only 
fnoAive  which  weigned  with  him,  and  induced 
lum  to  take  a  part  in  the  enquiry,  vw  the 
JHiblic  good,  and  an  ardent  desire,  at  this  cri- 
iical  moment,  to  convince  those  brave  and 

fJlant  men,  the  navy  officers  and  seamen  of 
ngland,  on  whose  cotu-a^e  and  ac^vity  this 
country  depended  for  swty  and  prosperity, 
jthat  the  noblest  fonndation  in  the  world,  a 
foundation  which  did  the  utmogt  honour  to 
£r&eat  Britain,  was  attentively  regarded  and 
.watched  by  parliaBieot  with  a  jealous  eye,  as 
the  nation*s  gneat  man  of  war,  as  an  is«ylum 
ibr  disfld)led  seamen,  and  for  suoh  only  as  had 
-purchased  it  by  their  blood,  by  their  services, 
and  by  the  contributions  they  had  paid ;  that 
it  was  the  business. of  parliament  to  defend 
-^nd  protect  them,  and  to  prevent  every  abuse 
in  tbepunagementof  it,  inorderthat  itabould 
he  a  place  of  seat,  fit  to  .noceiMe  them  and 
<thei^'  successors,  the  piUow  on  which  .thfly 
^mre  to  repose,  alter  -their  daio^er,  toil,  and 
care,  in  doenoe  of  the  public ;  m  «fact,.that 
■4hi8  placeof^setiieinent,  which  tb^  cegaodid 


as  their  l^st  port,  a^  their  only  hav^n  of  com- 
fort, happiness,  and  peace^  ought  to  be  pre-^ 
served  for  them,  and  them  only,  with  every 
enjoyment  and  advantage  deducible  from  ita 
oru|Uial  constitution. 

The  Duke  of  Hickwumd  professed  himself 
puch  hurt  at  what  had  fallen  from  the  noble 
and  leartied  law  lord.  He  begged  again  and 
again,  that  it  might  be  considered  he  meant 
no  personal  accusation,  that  he  brought  not 
charge,  nor  wished  to  criminate  either  the 
noble  Iqrd  at  the  head  of  the  Admiralty,  or 
9ny  other  person.  The  noble  and  learned 
lord  had  hurt  him  still  more,  by  suggesting 
that  he  had  braught  a  charge  against  absent 
persons.  God  forbid,  th$it  ne  should  ever  ac- 
cuse men  who  were  not  present,  or  who  could 
not  make  their  defence !  much  more  ashamec| 
should  he  be  to  attempt  to  drajr  any  conclu- 
sions of  a  criminating  nature  against  those 
who  wer^  absent.  In  nis  opening  speech,  h^ 
had  expressly  declared,  that  all  the  vanoua 
matters  which  he  had  stated,  arose  fronci 
ejt  parte  evidence,  and  th^t  he  did  nof 
lay  them  down  ^  facts,  which  he  under- 
took to.  provje.  He  was  perfectly  indif- 
ferent as  to  the  issue  of  the  enquiry ;  con- 
vinced, however^  as  he  was,  that  the  subject 
of  it  was  sufficiently  important  to  require  par- 
liamentary eiLax^inatiop,  1^  shoidd  certainly 
Eroceed,  but  he  ag^iu  submitted  it  to  their 
.  )rdsJiips^  considcpUlpn,  which  woukl  be  the 
best  mode  of  receiving  the  evidence. 

Lord  Mqwjkld^  in  reply,  said,  th|s  noble 
duke  had  certainly  ibisen  looking  ovisr  some 
papers,  or  had  his  thoughts  otnerwi^  so  much, 
iepg^ged  when  he  l^ul  spoken,  that  b^e  did  not 
hear  nim  distinctly.  Nothing  could  be  far- 
tlier  from  his  meanixig,  than  the  idea  the 
noble  duke  had  revoUedat,  and  nothing  could 
he  stronser  in  expression,  than  the  words  he 
had  used,  respecting  th/e  nature  of  the  ea- 
quirv,  and  the  candid  mariner  in  which  the 
joobfe  duke  had  brought  it  forward.  His  lord- 
ship jnepeated  his  wordsL  ^d  shewed  that  he 
had  not  uttered  a  svUablc,  which  led  to  an  io- 
sinuati^  of  the  cnarffe  peing  personally  le- 
velled, or  that  the  n^le  duke  meant  to  cri- 
minate absent  persons. 

At  ler^^  the  Committee  proceeded  to  exa- 
mine wituesses,  who  being  all  previously 
sworn. 

Captain  fiar7/if,t}ic  late  lieutenant  Governor, 

was  called  in. 

'  Pi^e  to  inform  the  committee  whether 
you  hav»  read  tl)e  new  cluirter } — I  have. 

I^ave  yoy  read  the  old  conwi^sion? — I 
have. 

Have  you  compared  the  old  commission 
with  the  new  charter  ? -4  have  Hi:ompared 
them. 

Is  there  any  difference  between  them?-- 
There  are  a  great  many  alterations  and  addi- 
tions which  are  .nvy  m^tesial,  in  my  humble 
Judgment 
§ 


ft]       rapeMng  Ute  Rogid  lioipHai  at  Greermich*         A.  D.  1778. 


C7B 


Do  voa  know  who  frepued  the  tHarter  ?-r 

I  bdieve  it  was  preplired  by  Mr.  Ifobetfion^ 

thesecretaiy  to  thedireclorsof  the  Hospital 
Hid  genersl  court  of  govemots  and  conunis- 
flooers. 

Was  the  charier  ever  re%d  at  a  geaend 
court  tet  you  know  of  t— Wfaen  it  was  pro- 
duced at  a  general  court  at  the  Admiralty,  in 
cfder  to  be  read,  lord  Sandwich  was  pleased  to 
siy  he  thought  the  t^adin|giinneces»ury^  as  it 
mtsiBMre  copy  of  the  old  commission,  ex- 
cest  some  alteratioiis  in  point  of  form. 

Was  the  ch^uter  then  sealed,  or  was  it  the 
dn^gfat  of  the  charter  f— It  was  the  charter. 

Wis  the  mat  seal  to  it  ^— I  believe  it  was. 

Was  any  oraught  of  that  charts  laid  before 
ihe  general  comfprevions  to  its  being  sealed 
vkh  the  great  aeal?-^!  dont  know  that  dnere 
vas;  thete  was  a  r6i!igh  draught  of  it  brought 
Id  the  beard  <»f  directors. 

Have  yo)i2  constantly  attended  ihe  general 
cnirts  f~I  ^ene:^y  attended  tery  constantly. 

You  den°t  recollect  thact  any  draught  of  the 
darter  was  produced  at  a  general  court,  pre- 
vious to  the  great  seal  being  alfixed  to  it  ?— 
I  doot  recoil^  that  thet«  was. 

Was  it  before  the  court  of  directors  thit  yon 
spbkeofthe  rooeh  draioght  b^ing  predueied? 
—Yes^  I  really  <£m*t  recoHect  the  partacalar^ 
of  it,  but  i  did  not  vndemwand  theai  tiiat  there 
were  any  alterations,  additions,  oroAiiasioBs, 
from  the  orinnal  commission. 

Wfaopmchioed  that  draught  f-^Ibelileve  the 
aii£tor  or  the  secretaxy,  I-am  notstnewhich. 

l^pOQ  what  (xxa^ioB  was  the  charter  9euA 
before  the  general  coort?— It  iilaB  not  read'^ft 
aii  in  my  nBarizi^. 

With  what,  view  was  h  attempted  to  be 
*read  ?^I  have  eaid  it  was  supposed  unneces- 
sary to  read  it;  that  itwasameretopyofthe 
old  commissions,  some  iterations  only  lin 
point  of  form,  on  account  of  the  iilooiporating 
of  the  governors  and  commiBaioners. 

Wfaoi  you  found  that  there  were  some  vna- 
terial  alterations,  <hd  von  ever  represent  that 
as  a  grievance,  and  a  thing  thift  ought  not  to 
have  been>-^I  never  knew  that  there  were 
aDjr  alteratbns  till  the  dharter-had  passed  the 
great  seal,  and  then  I  compared  the  old  com- 
nussitms  with  the  charter,  and  'foond  very 
enential,  alterations.  I  beg  your  IbnMiips  to 
undersfand  that  the  charter  was  «|4' entirely 
read,  only  soine  partioidar  parts  of  it,  at  Idie 
deareof  capt.  Hood,  thetrsasorer,  who  foond 
himself  aggrieved  by  leaving  out  part  of  his 
titles;  Receiver  General  was  left  out^  whieh 
hethou^t  afiected  liim,  o^rwise,  I  believe, 
iM>jmrtof  it  had  been  read  at  all. 

Cutam  Baillie  said,  if  I  understand  him, 
that  he  believed  the  charter  was  prepared  by 
Mr.  Ibbetson;  does  captain  Bailfie'know  of 
^  <Mhflrperson  employed  be»des  himf'-^-Mr. 
^J^etsoii  IS  secretary ;  we  have  no  other  to 
wHoBpital,  to  the  boerd  o(dheetor8,andthe 
poenX  cotirt  of  governors  and  conmnssionerB. 

^hat  reason  nave  you  to  believe  tt  was 
piepsnd  by  him  ^Becanae  bQ  4te8  idl  #» 

I 


business  of, Greenwich  Hospital,  as  for  as 
comes  under  my  knowledge,  as  far  as  I  know 
in  that  line. 

Did  you  never  hear  of  this  charter  being 
laid  before  and  orepared  by  any  eminent 
counsel  f — ^I  have  neard  that  it  was  to  be  re- 
fehed  to  the  attorney  and  solicitor  general ; 
I  did  heikr  that  mentioned,  that  it  lay  some 
tame  with  them,  af^er  it  was  drawn  up. 

Had  the  solicitor  to  the  Hospital  any  hand 
in  preparing  it  ? — t  don't  know  that  he  had. 
[Capt.  Baillie  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Ibbetson  (Secretary  to  the  Directors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital)  called  in. 

Please  to  give  an  account  to  the  House  of 
what  you  know  of  the  new  charter;  bow  it 
was  prepared;  by  whom  it  was  planned; 
who  shewn  to;  and  what  steps  it  went 
tlirough  ? — ^It  was  originally  proposed  by  Mr. 
Edeo,  the  auditor,  the  having  a  charter  for  in- 
corporating Greenwich  Hospital.  The  soli- 
citor for  Greenwich  Hospital  was  directed, 
with  the  assistance  of  Mr.  Eden,  to  prepare 
the  draught  of  a  charter  to  be  laid  before  the 
attorney  and  solicitor  general ;  a  draught  of)  a 
charter  was  accordingly  prepared,  first  o£  all 
there  was  an  opinion  takeil  from  tlye^ttorn^ 
and  solicitor-general,  and  Mr.  Edp^'a  opinion 
of  the  necessity  and  expediencv  J^^^havin^ 
charier  for  Greenwich  Hospital.  j.^I^hc^  gav^ 
their  opinion,  that  it  was  expedient  dndQi9ce»- 
saiy;  a  draught  of  a  charter  was  ordered  to  be 
prejpared,  with  the  assistalice  of  Mt;,  Edeif, 
ana  to  be  laid  before  the  attorney  and  aoh- 
citor-eeneral ;  by  them  it  was  settled ;  it  was 
-brougnt  before  the  board  of  direaors  as  set- 
tled oy  the  attorney  and  solicitor-general; 
the  board  thought  it  would  be  necessary  to 
add  a  clause  to  iit,  with  respect  to  the  trea^ 
surer,  and  other  people  concerned  in  the  re- 
ceipt of  money  for  Greenwich  Hospital  givii^ 
security ;  that  was  proposed,  laid  before  the 
attorney  and  solicitor-general,  and  with  that 
amendment  the  charter  passed  the  great^^eal. 

When  that  was  laid  before  the  general 
court,  was  it  then  sealed  ? — Yes>  it  was  sealed ; 
it  came  perfect ;  the  charter  itself  under  the 
seal  was  brought  to  the  general  court,  arKl 
was  laid  before  the  general  court.  It  was  not 
all  of  it  read. 

What  general  court  was  it  this  charter  was 
laid  before? — ^The  general  court  immediately 
after  the  date  of  it,  in  December,  1775,  -I 
think — I. can  refer  to  the  books. 

Have  you  the  mimites  of  that  general  court 
here  ? — ^I  have. 

Please  to  read  them. 

[The^Kttnees  prdducedthe  minutes,  andivtd 
an  entry  Purporting  that  the  new  charter  was 
presinteato  aiseneral  oourt.  on  Saturday  the 
16thbf  December,  1775,!and  that  Jts  the  ikw 
chatter  emitted  to  stile  the  treasurer '  rccehrar 
general,*  which  title  he  had  in  the  old  oom- 
mrisskn,^the-treasarerheing*pfC8ent;e}mDressed 
his  doabts  whether  ai)  omission  of  me  bat 
MUliqpBd  -title  taaight  >not  afibeuha^piArais. 


79] 


18  GEOROE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas 


[80 


of  his  office;  tipon  which  the  genera)  court 
ordered,  that  a  case  be  stated,  and  laid  before 
the  attoniey  and  solicitor  general,  if  the  trea- 
surer, upon  further  consideration,  should 
think  the  same  necessary.] 

What  was  done  in  consequence  of  that? — 
At  a  subsequent  general  court,  held  on  the 
16th  of  February  following,' the  governor  ac- 
quainted the  court,  that  the  charter  had  been 
altered  in  'the  presence  of  his  majesty,  by 
adding  the  woros  "  Receiver  General"  to  the 
treasurer's  title,  as  expressed  in  his  patent  and 
the  old  commission. 

Then  am  I  to  understand  that  tins  charter 
was  never  laid  before  the  general  court  till  it 
had  passed  the  ^eat  seal  ?— I  am  not  prepared 
to  speak  to  that  immediately :  I  don't  thmk  it 
was ;  but  I  can  refer  to  that.  fThe  witness 
refers  to  the  Minute-book.)  It  does  not  ap- 
pear to  have  been  laid  before  the  general 
court. 

Not  any  draught  of  it  previous  to  passing 
the  great  seal  ? — No. 

when  it  was  laid  befbre  the  general  court, 

-  after  having  passed  the  great  seal,  what  was 

the  notide  to  persons  to  attend  that  general 

'(toxxri  .>'*  Wliat  number  of  persons  were  sum- 

S'  oned?H^^e  governors  and  commissioners 
at  had llRually  been  summoned  were  sum- 
moned upon  that  occasion ;  there  was  no  ex- 
traordmaW  summons. 

Who  are  usually  summoned  ?— The  lords  of 
the  Admiralty,  the  secretary  at  war,  the  trea- 
surer of  the  navy,  the  commissioners  of  tlic 
navy,  and  the  lieutenant-governor,  the  auditor 
and  the  directors  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  and 
the  deputy  master  of  the  Trinity-house.  Thfe 
deputy-master  of  the  Trinity-house,  in  the  last 
summons  was  one  of  the  directors. 

Has  it  been  usual  when  there  has  been  ex- 
traordinary business  come  before  the  Hospital 
to  summon  nobody  else  ?— I  neve^  remember 
but  one  instance  of  it. 

What  was  that  instance  ?— It  was  upon  the 
appointment  of  a  receiver  to  the  Derwentwa- 
ter  estate.  , 

Who  was  at  the  head  of  the  Admiralty  at 
that  time  ?^Lord  Egmont. 

Upon  that  occasion  who  was  summoned  ? — 
Tlie  greatest  part  of  the  commissioners  were 
summoned  upon  that  occasion ;  I  cannot  ex- 
actly state  them  ;  except  the  princes  of  the 
blood,  I  believe  almost  the  whole  commission 
were  summoned. 

But  upon  this  occasion  of  a  new  charter 
being  laid  before  them,  there  were  no  more 
summoned  than  ordinary  ?-~The  summonses 
went  in  the  usual  way ;  I  received  no  direc- 
tions. 4 

When  that  charter  was  read  before  the  ee- 
neral  court,  was  it  read  distinctly,  article  oy 
article,  or  only  parts  of  it  ?— A  very  small  part 
of  it  was  read. 

Was  it  intimated  that  there  were  but  few 
alterations,  or  was  any  notice  taken  of  any 
material  alterations  ?-«-There  was  no  notice 


taken  at  that  time  biit  of  the  omission  of 
part  of  the  treasurer's  title^  which  was  observ- 
ed, as  J  have  already  mentioned. 

Did  any  body  state  there  was  anV  material 
alteration?— I  don't  remember  that  there 
was. 

Was  there  any  thing  said  that  there  was  not 
any  material  alteration? — I  don't  recollect 
that  any  thing  of  that  sort  passed.  It  had 
been  laid  before  the  attorney  and  solicitor-se- 
neral ;  I  imagine  it  was  supposed  to  be  ri^ht. 

How  did  the  treasurer  luoow  that  his  titles 
were  left  out  ?— I  don*t  know. 

You  said  it  was  not  read  ?~  Probably  from 
the  draught  of  it,  as  settled,  having  bem  read 
to  the  b^utl  of  directora. 

When  was  it  read  to  the  board  of  directors  ? 
—(The  witness  refera  to  some  minutes.)  On 
the  linh  of  January,  1774,  **  a  draught  of  a 
charter,  as  settled  by  the  attorney  and  solici- 
tor-general, laid  before  the  board." 

I  understood  you  to  say  that  the  solicitor 
and  Mr.  Bden  were  directed  to  prepare  a 
draught  of  a  charter  ? — Yes,  to  be  laid  before 
the  attorney  and  solicitor-general. 

Who  gave  those  directions? — ^The  board  of 
directors. 

Were  they  the  only  pnersons  who  save  the 
orders  for  the  charter  being  prepared?— Yes. 

Who  was  consulted  in  drawing  up  the  char- 
ter?— It  was  upon  the  proposition  of  Mr. 
Eden,  who  at  that  time  was  auditor  and  coun- 
sel to  the  Hospital.  In  the  case  of  Mr.  Ellis, 
a  former  steward,  there  had  been  a  defi- 
ciency ;  there  was  some  difficult  how  he  was 
to  be  prosecuted ;  this  suggested  an  idea  that 
it  would  be  necessary  tonave  a  charter  to 
give  powers  to  that  body,  as  well  to  sue  as  for 
other  purposes,  and  the  commissioners  having 
all  along  directed  that  a  charter  should  be 
prepared. 

I  meant  to  ask  who  were  those  persons  that 
instructed  Mr.  Eden,  and  the  solicitor,  in  what 
manner  they  were  to  make  out  that  draught  ? 
— There  were  no  instructions  given  at  all ;  the 
solicitor  was  to  prepare  a  charter,  with  the  as- 
sbtanoeof  Mr.  Eden,  and  haviug  so  prepared 
it,  it  was  to  be  laid  before  the  attorney  and 
solicitor-general. 

Do  you  know  how  it  came  to  oass  that  Mr. 
Eden  and  the  solicitor,  of  themselves,  thought 
fit  to  mal^  any  material  alterations  between 
that  and  the  old  commission? — I  know  no- 
thing respecting  the  preparation  of  the  char- 
ter, Siough  I  am  charged  wiUi  it,  than  merely 
its  passing  the  board. 

If  you  donH  know  who  suggested  these  al- 
terations, or  advised  them,  then  I  have  no- 
thing to  ask  you  ?-^I  do  not    The  solicitor  is ' 
here,  probably  he  maybe  able  to  answer  that 
question. 

How  long  is  it  since  the  treasurer  of  the 
Hospital  was  required  to  give  security  ? — This 
very  charter  requires  it  There  was  a  clause 
added ;  I  mentioned  that  to  the  House  before. 

Do  you  know  whether  since  that  security 
was  required^  there  has  been  a  greater  sum9f 


8IJ  respecting  the  Rmfol  HoipUal  at  Greefnaoick.         A.  D.  1778* 


tst 


maoej  Mged  in  the  Dneasurer's  hands  ? — Upon 
mj  wordy  I  am  not  able  to  speak  to  that 
pomt 

Doyoa  not  know  that  the  treasurer  has  re- 
ceived much  less  since  the  security^  which  I 
sfmehend  to  be  10,000/.  ? — ^Yes,  it  is. 

Whether  he  has  not  received  much  less 
sinoe  that  time  than  before  ? — He  has  had  less 
than  10,000/.  since. 

How  much? — Six  thousand  pounds  less. 

How  were  the  prosecutions,  respecting  the 
Hospital,  carried  on.  before  the  new  chsuter  ? 
in  wnose  name?— The  solicitor  will  be  more 
able  to  speak  to  that  than  I  can;  but  in  the 
case  which  occasioned  the  taking  up  the  busi- 
ness of  the  charter,  Mr.  Ellis's  case,  there  was 
some  difficulty  how  to  proceed.  There  was 
one  opinion,  that  it  was  right  to  proceed  by  an 
assumpsit;  another  opinion,  that  an  informa- 
tioQ  should  be  filed  in  chancery,  by  the  attor- 
nqp-general,  and  that  was  directed,  but  there 
was  sone  difficulty  about  it;  and  from  that 
and  other  things,  it  was  thought  necessary  to 
get  a  new  charter.  It  had  b^n  attempted  in 
sevcnl  reigns;  I  traced  it  almost  ready  to  pass 
the  great  seals,  and  then  it  was  stopped. 

By  whom  were  those  difficulties  made;  in 
wbsl  court,  or  in  any  court?--!  only  said  I 
traced  the  charter  having  been  prepared :  I 
flaw  letters  in  the  books  of  the  Admualty  to 
Ihe  attocney-general,  pressing  him  to  expedite 
the  diarler,in  queen  Anne^sand  king  Creorge 
the  first's  time;  no  less  than  two  or  three 
chaiters  had  been  in  a  state  of  preparation, 
and  thai  th^  died  away,  and  we  cannot  trace 
what  stopped  them. 

Then  you  do  not  recollect  any  prosecutions, 
and  persons  transported  under  prosecutions. 
in  the  name  of  the  directors,  under  the  old 
commission  ? — ^There  have  undoubtedly  been 
mosecutionSy  but  the  solicitor  can  expkun  that 
Better. 

I  think  vou  stated,  that  there  were  direc- 
tijyisfirQm  tne  board  ot  directors  to  the  solicitor, 
and  Mr.  Eden,  to  prepare  tins  charter  ?'*^Yes. 

Do  those  directions  appear  upon  the  minutes 
of  the  court  of  directors  ? — Yes,  the^r  are  here. 
(Refers  to  the  Minute-book.)  I  wiU,  if  you 
please,  read  a  minute  immediately  preceding 
It,  respecting  Mr.  Ellis.  ^  On  the  26th  of  Feb- 
niaxy,  1772,  The  solicitor  laid  before  the 
board  Mr.  Eden's  opinion,  in  regard  to  the 
method  proper  to  be  taken  tor  recovering  from 
Ellis  the  bsuance  due  fix>m  him  to  the  Hospi- 
tal;  he  advises  an  assumspit,  though  he  could 
not  be  certain  of  success.  The  solicitor  was 
ffirected  to  take  the  attomey^^general^s  opinion 
upon  the  matter;  Mr.  Eden  havins  reported 
upon  the  above  occasion,  that  he  thinks  the 
want  of  incorporation  a  considerable  defect  in 
the  constitution  of  the  Hospital,  &c.  Be- 
sdved,  that  the  same  be  submitted  to  the  con- 
aderation  of  the  next  court 

<'  On  the  11th  of  March,  177S,  the  solicitor 
kid  before  the  board  a  case,  respecting  the  in- 
corpoialing  the  Hospital,  with  the  opinion  of 
the  attomqr  and  solicitor-general,   and  Mr. 

VOL.  XXL 


Eden,  thereupon,  by  which  it  appears,  that 
they  think  it  on  many  accounts  expedient,  and 
even  uecessaiv;  and  that  a  charter  of  incor- 
poration should  be  prepared  for  that  purpose, 
as  recommended  by  the  king's  commission. 
Ordered,  that  the  solicitor  do,  with  the  advice 
of  Mr.  Eden,  prepare  a  draught  for  that  pur- 
pose, and  lay  the  same  before  the  attorney 
and  solicitor-general  to  settle/' 

Before  what  court?— The  court;  the  board 
of  directors. 

The  first,  I  think,  you  mentioned,  was  at  a 
general  court? — ^The  ^neral  court,  in  the 
first  sta^e  of  this  business,  went  to  parlia- 
ment, with  a  petition  for  a  charter  by  act  of 
parliament. 

What  I  want  to  know  is,  what  the  direction 
is.  whether  it  was  a  general  court,  or  a  court 
or  directors,  that  gave  directions  to  Mr.  Eden 
and  the  solicitor  to  prepare  the  charter?-^ 
That  I  have  just  read  ot  the  11th  of  March, 
and  that  charier,  as  settled  by  the  attorney  and 
sohcitor-general,  was  laid  before  the  hoiid  of 
directors  on  the  13th  of  Jidy,  1774,  and  then 
they  proposed  the  addition  to  it  of  the  securi- 
ties. 

Then  that  draught,  as  laid  be£>re .  the  direc- 
tors, was  that  draught  with  the  alterations,  the 
same  as  the  charter  now  stands,  except  in  the 
case  of  csu9tain  Hood? — ^I  cannot  charge  my 
memory ;  1  suppose  no  alterations  were  made 
in  it  aner,  except  the  security  clause ;  but  the 
solicitor  is  the  person  I  must  refer  your  lord- 
ships to  upon  this  occasion. 

You  had  no  hand  in  drawing  the  charter  ?r- 
No;  I  had  no  hand  in  it,  but  what  appears 
upon  the  face  of  the  minutes ;  I  never  saw 
the  draught  of  the  charter,  except  when  it  was 
read  to  me  board  of  directors;  I  never  saw  it 
in  the  interval  of  its  preparation. 

[Mr.  Ibbetsvn  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Evereit  (the  Solicitor  to  the  Hospital) 

called  in. 

Give  an  account  to  the  House  of  what  you 
know  relative  to  the  new  charter. — ^To  the 
best  of  my  recollection,  I  received  no  other  di- 
rections, thsui  what  I  received  from  the  secre- 
tary, and  those  in  writing. 

Have  you  a  copy  of  those  directions  that 
you  received  in  wnting  ? — ^I  have  not  a  copy  of 
them  by  me  at  present. 

Do  you  recollect  the  substance  of  them  ? — 
I  do  not.    « 

Do  you  recollect  whether  there  were  any 
directions  to  make  any  alterations  in  the 
charter  from  the  old  commission? — ^None, 
that  I  know  of 

Then  what  did  you  do  in  consequence  pf 
those  directions? — In  consequence  of  those 
directions,  some  old  papers  that  had  been  for- 
merly, as  I  understood,  prepared  on  this  occa- 
sion, for  incorporating  the  Hospital,  were  tum^ 
ed  to ;  and  from  those  papers,  m  which  were  a 
draught  of  a  charter,  which  was  intended  to 
have  been  passed,  as  I  understood  at  that 

G 


83] 


18  6EOROE  III.  Tke  Cote  qfO^ptam  Thomat 


CM 


time,  and  from  the  oommiseion  the  present 
charter  was  drawn. 

Acauaintthe  House  if  you  received  no  direc- 
tions from  any  body  to  make  any  alterations 
in  the  charter,  how  you  came  to  make  any  al- 
terations.— ^I  cannot  immediately  satisfy  your 
lordships  how  I  came  to  make  those  altera^ 
tions;  but  your  lordships  wiU  please  to  ob- 
serve, that  I  had  many  materials  to  take  this 
draught  from;  I  had  no  one  line  to  go  by. 

Prav,  was  not  the  old  commission  a  line  to 
go  by  f — ^It  was  in  a  great  degree,  but  not  to- 
tally so. 

Is  it  not  like  the  old  commission  in  a  great 
manjr  reacts? — It  is  so. 

Is  it  not  word  for  word  in  a  great  part  <^it? 
*-T>I  cannot  recollect  that  circumstance. 

On  what  ground  did  you  make  Uie  altera- 
tions ?  Did  you  make  them,  or  any  body  else  ^ 
•— They  might  be  made  by  me,  Init  I  cannot 
any  ivhether  they  were  or  not;  it  is  a  thing  I 
am  totally  unprepared  to  give  an  answer  to. 

What  occasion  had  you  to  refer  to  those  old 
papers?  Did  any  body  tell  you  to  refer  to 
them  ?— I  don't  recollect  that  thev  did. 

I  thought  you  said  you  referred  to  them? — 
Certainly  I  did  refer  to  them. 

Who  told  you  to  refer  lo  them?— To  the 
beetof  my  recollection,  but  it  is  a  thing  I  can- 
not he  positive  in,  they  were  taken  out  of  the 
record-room,  in  Greenwich  Hospital;  a  place 
for  depositing  the  Hospital  deeds  and  papers. 

What  reason  had  you  logo  to  look  in  tnis  old 
record-room  for  these  papers? — ^I  had  never 
drawn  a  charter  before;  I  wished,  therefore, 
to  see  what  the  idea  had  been ;  wiaerstanding 
long  since,  and  many  times,  that  there  had 
}M)en  such  dreuehts  prepared. 

When  you  <fid  make  these  alterations,  did 
you  acouaint  any  body  wiUi  havmg  made 
these  aIteratH>ns  ?— I  don't  know  that  I  did ; 
and  I  so  Uttle  understood  that  I  was  making 
an  improper,  or  any  deviation  finom  what  the 
charter  should^  or  was  intended  to  have  been, 
that  I  had  no  idea  of  acauainting  any  person 
of  it :  there  was  bo  line  that  I  OHild  oraw  the 
charter  by ;  I  took  i|  sometimes  from  one  pa- 
per, and  sometimes  from  apgther,  as  tiiere 
were  a  great  variety  of  theoL 

Don*-!  you  know  that  there  are  alteratiims 
in  this  pharter  from  the  old  one  ?•— Till  it  was 
pointed  out  in  Mr,  Qatllie's  bpok,  I  did  not 
fi:now  it. 

Did  you  not  know  the  Hospital  had  been 
governed  under  a  commission  from  the  time 
of  its  institution? — ^Yes^Idid. 

You  did  not  then  refer  to  the  original  oomr 
nussion? — I  believe,  I  expressed  myself  so  tp 
your  lordships. 

Then,  if  you  did  refer  to  it,  when  you  drew 
tlus  charter^  do  you  mean  to  say  upon  your 
oath,  that  you  did  not  know  that  tnere  was 
any  materiu  difference  between  them  ? — ^I  did 
not  know  that  there  was  any  more  difference, 
than  what  seemed  to  me  to  be  iiecessaiy  tp 
constitute  a  new  charter. 

I>id  not  you  knpM^  at  th^t  time,  that  Uiere 


was  a  material  difference?--- 1  did  not  think 
the  old  commission  to  be  a  direct  rule  forme  ; 
there  were  many  papers. 

I  understood  you,  that  you  did  not  know 
that  there  was  any  materials  difference  in  th« 
charter,  till  you  was  apprized  of  it  in  captain 
Baillie's  book  ?— These  is  a  diffisrence ;  there 
must  be  a  difference. 

Why  must  .there  be  a  difference  ?**TIm 
commission  did  not  make  a  corporation,  there 
must  be  words  to  that  purpose. 

But  is  there  no  difference  but  that ;  is  lfa« 
recommendation  of  the  general  court  of  com* 
missioners  and  governors  to  the  AdnumHy,  ia 
the  appointment  of  all  the  offices,  left  out  in 
the  cnarter,  or  is  it  not  ?-^It  is  left  out 

Why  was  it  left  out?— I  cannot  undertakw 
to  say  why. 

Did  any  body  desire  you  to  leave  it  outf— - 
No,  so  help  me  God. 

You  took  it  upon  yourself  ?— I  cannot  aa^ 
swer  at  this  distance  of  time,  whether  I  took 
it  upon  myself,  or  wfaa  took  it  upon  theai^ 
selves. 

I  am  aure  I  do  not  mean  to  lead  you,  e^ 
I  thought  the  inference  ftir,  when  you  aail 
nobody  directed  you,  that  yon  took  it  upon 
yourself  ^—^[  cannot  say. 

What  was  your  reason  for  leaving  it  out^— 
I  had  no  particukr  reason  for  leavings  it  out 

Is  it  possible  that  a  man  of  busmeei  cmi 
make  a  nuterial  alteimtkmy  without  hani^ 
some  reason  for  it;  you  are  here  vsgoa  your 
oath,  and  I  insist  upon  knowing  what  ^kmk 
reason  was?--I  do  not  from  my  raoottectioa 
know,  that  either  I  did  or  did  not  Wnve  itoirt^ 
nor  how  it  was  left  out,  I  protest 

There  was  also  a  power  of  removal  of  tlM 
officers,  which  was  not  in  the  oticinal  coib* 
mission,  and  which  is  in  the  new  charter.  Is 
there  not?— I  believe  there  is. 

How  did  that  happen?— I  do  not  recolleel 
how  that  happened. 

Did  any  body  give  you  directions  to  do  itF 
—No.  not  tluit  I  remember,  any  body. 

Did  any  body  else  make  the  alterations^  or 
was  it  you?— Not  that  I  know  of. 

Was  it  you  or  any  body  else? — ^Upon  tbj 
honour,  I  do  not  know,  I  protest 

Do  you  know  the  reason  why  that  alttrfr* 
tkm  was  made?— No.  I  do  not 

Do  you  recollect  tnat  there  is  another  al« 
teration  in  this  charter,  and  the  application  of 
the  money  arising  ftom  the  chariw,  being  fo^ 
the  uses  of  the  Hospital,  is  totally  left  out ;  do 
you  repollect  that?— I  do  not  know  how  it 
came  to  be  left  out;  it  is  a  long  while  for  a 
person's  recollection  to  go  to  December,  1775. 

The  words  I  mean  are  these,  <*  And  we  do 
hereby,  for  us,  our  heirs,  and  successors^ 
strict]^  chaige  and  commuid,  enjoin  and  r^ 
quff^  that  none  of  the  monies,  or  other  things^ 
irhicn  shall  be  gdven,  contributed,  &c.  shall 
he  diverted,  issued,  or  applied,  or  be  in  any 
ways  applicable  to  any  use  or  purpose  what* 
soever,  otherwise  thanr  to  the  chaittaMe  pmv 
poses afi^reoMiitionedy'' &e.   Tbesewordsari 


8S]        re^ecthig  Ae  Roj/d  Hoquid  at  Greewakk.         A.  D.  1778. 


[86, 


feftoatiotlwiiewcluorter;  I  desire  to  know 

if  fou  JiA  thott  oiit?-^!  do  not  know. 
Do  you  know  whether  any  hody  else  loft 

Am  tot?— No,  I  do  not 
Do  tou  know  why  they  were  left  out?-— 

Noy  I  do  not  know  why  they  were  left  out. 

•lliGn  there  are  some  other  words  whkh  are 
imerted;  these  words  are  inserted  in  the  new 
dnrtor,  ''And  also  to  sell,  grant,  demise, 
sfieo,  or  dispose  of  Ae  same  manors,  me«- 
flmges,"  ftc.  Do  yon  know  why  tiiat  power 
of  seUn^  was  introduced  in  the  charter,  selling 
the  whote  estates  of  the  Hospital  ?->I  believe 
tint  claiise  was  found  in  one  of  the  (draughts 
tint  I  had  for  my  guidance ;  but  ifyour  lord- 
sbips  will  please  to  attend  to  the  charter,  ftom 
the  best  ot  my  recollection,  there  is  a  clause 
hnaiediately  preceding  tha^  which  gives  the 
Hosptiri  a  power  to  purchase  estates,  which  I 
beUere  they  had  not  by  the  former  conunis- 
sien ;  it  gives  tfeem  a  power  to  receive  devises 
of  manors,  meseoages,  boids,  and  so  on,  and 
mtumfiatery,  as  I  mink,  this  clause  of  which 
lus  erace  sp»ks,  follows,  and  it  was  not.  to 
the  best  oTm^  memoiy,  then  understood,  mat 
4e  ckuse  giving  a  power  to  the  Hospital  to 
teN  the  estates,  eictended  any  farther  tnan  to 
those  tb^  had  bought,  or  such  as  were  de- 
filed to  mem,  to  the  best  of  my  recollection. 

You  mentioned  materials  tlwt  you  h^  for 
your  guidance,  be  so  good  as  to  mention  what 
they  were  ?— It  is  almost  impossible  for  me  to 
do  that,  who  have  never  seen  them  since. 

Whoe  did  you  take  them  from  ?— To  Uie 
best  of  my  recollection  they  were  taken  £rom 
the  Record-room  in  Greenwich  HospitaJ. 

Who  gave  them  to  you  ?-^Yoiir  lordships 
wiH  please  to  understand,  that  this  Record- 
non  is  under  four  locks  and  keys;  I  have 
te  keeping  of  one  of  tiioee  k^  myself;  I  do 
not  know  who  eave  them  to  me,  but,  from  tile 
keslof  oiy fecMOction,  I  hadthem  from  that 
room. 

Did  you  taiw  them  yourself,  or  any  body 
give  them  to  you? —I  believe,  but  1  cannot 
speak  cerlaBily  to  it ;  I  beheve  that  I  desired 
to  have  them. 

Did  you  return  them  to  that  placed— I 
ttik  they  are  returned,  but  I  cannot  speak 
positively  to  that  point. 

DU  you  keep  any  copies  of  «those  materiah 
Ihatserved  you  for  your  guide?— No,  not  to 
1^  recofiecuon. 

Tour  kwdships  will  be  pleased,  that  thb 
Boitleman  may  come  another  day,  and  I  beg 
M  nay  bring  those  papers  with  him.  If  you 
had  DO  authority  from  any  bo^  to  make  those 
material  alteratkms,  how  came  you  to  lake 
^on  yourself  to  make  them  ? — I  cannot  un- 
dsrtake  to  say  either  that  I  <fid  or  did  not 
make  them;  1  drew  tb  :$  charter  to  the  best  of 
i^afailhy,  and  it  wai  passed  by  Mr.  Eden, 
»dafWr  that  went  to  the  Attorney  and  Soli- 
otov  General,  and  was  finally  settl^. 

Do  you  take  upon  you  to  swear  that  you  db 
vot  know  whether  you  made  any  of  these  ma- 
*B«iatoemlioi»t,  or  who  did  make  thttn,  or 


that  you  received  any  directions  from  any  per- 
son whatever  to  make  any  of  those  altera- 
tions?^! do  not  know  that  I  received  any 
directions  ftom  any  person,  (except,  as  I  said 
before)  fixnn  the  directors  of  the  Hospital  in 
writii^ :  I  considered  myself  acting  under  the 
directions  also  of  Mr.  Eden. 

Did  Mr.  Eden  ^ive  you  any  directions  rela- 
tive to  the  alteration  that  you  mentioned  ? — It 
is  impossible  for  me  to  say  at  this  distance  of 
time,  but  I  think  not ;  I  do  not  know. 

You  swear  then  you  dp  not  know,  yon  do 
not  recollect  whether  any  body  gave  you  any 
directions,  or  whether  it  was  you  or  any  bo<fy 
else  made  them  ? — 1  beheve  I  stated,  that  I 
had  received  directions  from  the  board  of  di- 
rectors, ^iflt  I  considered  myself  acting  under 
Mr.  Eden. 

But  did  you  receive  from  the  board  of  direc- 
tors, or  Mr.  Eden,  any  directions  to  make  al- 
terations in  the  charter  ?— Not  that  I  recollect 

Think  a  IHtle  before  you  answer  the  ques- 
tion 1  am  going  to  ask  you,  and  answer  it  se- 
riously :  I  understand  that  these  alterations  in 
the  charter  were  taken  by  you  from  certain 
loose  papers  that  you  got  out  of  the  Record- 
room  m  Greenwich  Hospital ;  it  was  so,  was 
h?— I  believe  1  informed  your  lordships,  that 
I  had  no  line  to  go  by  upon  that  occa^on; 
that  I  had  never  drawn  acnarter  before ;  that 
I  had  recourse  to  such  papers  as  I  thought 
would  be  iisefoi  to  me;  and  with  them,  the 
be^  judgment  that  I  could  form  upon  the  oe- 
casioOj  and  the  commission,  were  the  things 
by  which  I  was  guided. 

Then  in  the  alterations  in  the  charter, 
which  are  not  found  in  the  commission,  I  ask 
you,  if  you  took  those  alterations  from  the  old 
papers  that  you  got  out  of  the  Record-room  or 
not  ?— I  cannot  undertake  to  say  that  I  did  or 
did  not 

If  yoodid  not  take  them  from  those  papers, 
from  whence  else  could  you  have  them?— 
Upon  my  oath  I  do  liot  know. 

Did  Mr.  Eden  give  you  any  such  instruc- 
tions?—Not  that  I  recollect. 

Did  any  bo<h^  else  whatever  g^  you  such  . 
orders  ?— Not  tnat  I  know  of. 

Unless  you  had  the  autiiority  of  these  pa- 
pers, how  came  you,  without  such  orders,  to 
take  upon  you  to  tal^  the  appointment  of  of^ 
ficers  out  of  the  general  coint,  and  give  it  to 
the  board  of  Adndtalty?— I  do  not  know  at 
this  time  what  was  the  occasion  of  it;  or 
whether  it  was  intended  at  all^  I  do  not  know. 

You  do  not  know  whether  it  was  intended 
to  be  done  ?— I  do  not  know^  my  lord. 

You  will  be  so  good  as  to  mform  their  lordu 
slupe,  how,  as  a  solicitor,  and  a  very  young 
man,  you  could  undertake^  and  could  justify  to 
yourself,  to  make  material  alterations  in  a 
charter,  from  the  original  commission? — I 
understood,  that  I  was  to  draw  the  charter 
from  such  miiterials  as  I  could  get,  and  from 
my  own  jjudgment  about  it ;  I  have  discharged 
my  conscience  about  the  matter,  and  I  do  not 
know  of  any  directionsthat  were  given,  any 


87] 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  ef  Captain  Thomas  BaiUe, 


[88 


•therwiae  than  those  I  have  stated  to  your 
lordships. 

When  you  carried  the  charter,  to  lay  it  be- 
fore the  Attorpey  ^d  Solicitor  General,  did 
you  then  apprize  those  two  great  lawyers  that 
you  had  altered  several  of  the  points  from  the 
original  commission  ?~I  did  not,  to  the  best 
of  my  recollection,  take  it  to  the  Attorney  and 
Soiiator  General;  a  Mr.  Sibthorpe,  who  was 
at  that  time  concerned  jointly  witn  me,  had  a 
great  deal  of  the  transaction  of  that  business 
¥rith  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General. 

Do  you  ondertake  to  savthat  you  did  not 
carry  it  to  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General  ? 
— I  do  not  recollect  that  perfectly. 

As  your  memory  is  so  extremely  short,  I 
imagine  it  is  some  days  since  you  have  been 
summoned  to  attend  this  House,  have  you 
ever  had  the  curiosity,  knowing  that  your  me- 
mory is  so  extremely  defective,  as  it  appears 
here,  to  compare  the  charter  vrith  the  original 
commission  ?«— I  have  looked  at  them. 

How  long  ago  ?— I  was  looking  at  them  thb 
morning. 

How  long  is  it  ago  since  you  were  summon- 
ed to  attend  this  House?— I  believe  about 
ten,  or  positively  [jqu.  possibly]  eleven  days. 

Did  you  not  think  it  material,  when  you 
had  had  so  great  a  hand,  and  absolutely  the 
drawing  of  this  charter,  not  to  refresh  so  short 
a  memoiy  as  vours  is,  with  the  particular  in- 
vestigation of  that  cluLTter,  and  comparing  it 
with  the  commission  before  this  morning  r-— 
No ;  I  have  looked  at  it.  but  not  as  comparinjg 
it,  nor  under  any  idea  ot  giving  evidence  of  it 
here. 

Did  you  ever  take  notice  to  any  body,  that 
you  had  made  these  alterations  in  this  char- 
ter ?^Not  that  I  recollect 

At  no  time  did  you  ever  mention  it  to  any 
body  ?— Not  that  I  know  of. 

How  long  is  it  since  you  have  been  sum- 
moned to  attend  this  House?— I  tlunk,  about 
ten  or  eleven  days. 

Have  you  hadfany  conversation  during  that 
time,  respecting  the  business  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  N— I  have  conversed  at  several  times 
with  various  officers  of  the  Hospital. 

With  whom  upon  this  business? — ^I  believe 
most  of  the  officers;  I  don't  know  any  one 
particularly  that  I  have  conversed  with 
about  it 

Have  you  conversed  upon  the  subject  of 
the  charter  ?— Not  that  I  know  of. 

How  long  have  you  been  the  solicitor  to 
Greenwich  Hospital? — I  was  concerned  witii 
Mr.  Sibthorpe  immediately  after  my  father's 
death,  which  was  ten  years  ago. 

How  were  you  bred?  To  what  business?— 
An  attorney. 

How  long  have  you  been  an  attorney  ? — ^I 
was  an  attorney  very  soon  afler  my  father's 
death. 

We  don't  know  when  your  &ther  died  ?— 
I  believe,  I  explained  to  your  lord^ps,  it  was 
about  ten  years. 

How  long  have  you  been  appointed  solicitor 


to  the  Hospital  ?-r-Alino8t  immediately  upoa 
my  fetber's  death,  which  b  about  ten  years 
ago. 

Were  you  an  apprentice  to  any  attome j 
before  you  was  an  attorney? — ^I  was  clerk  Vm 
my  father. 

How  long? — Not  quite  Ave  years,  but  I 
served  the  remainder  with  Mr.  Sibthorpe. 

I  only  wish  to  ask  the  witness;  he  says 
that  this  new  charter  was  laid  before  the  At- 
torney and  Solicitor  General,  I  desire  to  know 
whether  they  made  any  alterations  in  it,  after 
it  was  laid  before  them  ?^— I  believe,  that  the 
almost,  if  not  entirely,  the  only  alteration 
made  by  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General, 
was  the  clause  directing  security  to  be  taken. 

Was  the  old  commission  laid  before  the 
Attorney  and  Solicitor  Gveneral  at  the  same 
time,  with  the  draught  of  the  new  charter? — 
I  don't  know. 

Who'  were  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  Ge- 
neral at  that  time? — The  present  Chancellor 
was  Attorney  General,  and  Mr.  Wedderbume^ 
Solicitor. 

So  you  don't  know  whether  the  Attorney  or 
Solicitor  .General  did  know  there  was  any  va- 
riation made  between  the  new  charter  and 
the  old  commission  ? — ^I  don't  know  that  any- 
otherwise,  than  was  necessary  to  constitute  a 
charter;  there  must  be  some  variation,  to  be 
sure. 

[The  witness  was  ordered  to  attend  oa 
Monday  next,  and  bring  those  materials  with 
him,  which  he  made  use  of  in  drawing  up  iJie 
charter.] 

Whether  you  singly  drew  up  the  charter,  or 
whether  Mr.  Sibthorpe  was  concerned  with 
you  in  drawing  it  upr — ^Mr.  Sibthorpe  and  I^ 
to  the  best  of  my  recollection,  drew  it  toge- 
ther. 

He  was  concerned  with  you  in  drawing  of 
it? — ^Yes,hewas. 

I  think  you  say,  Sibthorpe  and  you  togeUier 
drew  it  f^-Yea.  I  think  so. 

Under  the  direction  of  Mr.  Eden  ?— Yes. 

You  recollect  that  was  the  oue,  do  you?— 
Yes,  perfectiy. 

I  suppose,  after  you  had  drawn  this  charter, 
you  delivered  it  to  Mr.  Eden  for  his  perusal  f 
— It  was  laid  before  Mr.  Eden  for  his  perusal. 

When  you  laid  it  before  him,  did  not  yeu  ol^ 
serve  to  him,  that  you  had  made  these  esseifo 
tial  alterations?—!  cannot  recollect,  whether 
I  or  Mr.  Sibthorpe  bud  it  before  him. 

Did  Mr.  Eden  make  any  alterations?—! 
cannot  recollect. 

Mr.  Ibbetson  called  in  again. 

Mr.  M.  In  the  hurry  of  looking  over  tha 
minutes  at  the  bar,  I  did  omit  one  which  I 
should  have  taken  notice  of;  I  did  mention  to 
the  House,  that  there  had  been  an  application 
from  the  general  court  to  parliament,  for  an 
act  of  jparuament  to  incorporate  the  Hospital, 
that  did  not  take  place;  and,  I  find,  upon 
looking  over  the  mimiteBi  stnoa  I  withdrew 


•fS}        nqfteUng  tiui  Ragat  Ho^d  at  Greetmich.         A.  D.  1778. 


n» 


Aom  the  bar,  that  the  draught  of  the  charter 

bd  been  settled  by  the  Attomejr  and  Solicitor 

General,  with  the  addition  of  the  security 

diDK,  was  laid  before  the  general  court,  an^ 

thit  was  on  the  10th  of  Match,  1774.    The 

dbectors  in  their  Memorial  to  that  eeneral 

court  say,  thus:  that  having  laid  herore  the 

Attoroey  and  Solicitor  General,  a  draught  of  a 

cfanrterofincorpoistion  for  the  Hospital,  &c. 

lad  having  addedf  according  to  their  recom- 

BK&dation,  a  clause  for  the  treasurer  to  ^ve 

Kcority,  the  resolution  of  the  general  court 

was,  tha  they  approved  of  the  draught  of  the 

new  charter. 

Who  were  present  at  that  time?— Lord 

Stodwidi,  Mr.  BuHer,  lord  Pahnerston,  lords 

ef  the  Admiralty,  &c.  &c.  in  the  whole  fifteen 

ia  number. 

Was  the  charter  read  paragraph  by  para^ 

Sph  at  the  general  court?— The  draught  of 
charter  appears  to  have  been  read  through ; 
I  recollect  very  well,  that  the  charter  itself 
was  not  read. 

You  say  it  appears,  that  the  draught  was 
Rsd  through,  it  may  be  entered  as  read,  it 
my  appear  so  upon  the  books;  but  were  you 
ffoent  at  the  general  court?— I  don't  recol- 
lect that  it  was  not  read ;  and  I  am  very  well 
convinced,  in  my  own  nund,  that  the  draught 
was  read,  but  that  the  charter  itself  was  not 
lead,  anv  more  than  sometimes  as  your  lord- 
shms' bills  are  read,  just  the  title  of  it 

Please  to  rocoUec^  an4.  will  you  take  upon 
you  to  say  that  it  was  r«d?— I  think  I  can 
venture  to  say  it,  but  I  will  not  say  it  posi- 
tively, but  I  have  no  reason  to  think  that  it 
^«s  not  read. 

Do  you  take  upon  you  to  say  positively  that 
it  was  or  was  not?— I  believe  it  was  read,  I 
know  nothing  to  the  contrarv. 

Whether  it  was  not  one  of  the  points  of  bu- 
aness,  upon  which  they  met  to  consider  of 
this  drai^t? — It  was  a  part  of  the  business 
of  the  day^  it  came  in  among  other  business. 

Was  this  draught  of  the  diarter,  to  the  best 
•f  jtur  knowledge,  read  to  the  general  court  ? 
—To  the  best  of  my  knowledge  and  belief, 
certainly  it  was  read. 

Were  any  of  these  alterations  between  the 
sQounisaion  and  charter,  pointed  out  to  tiie 
geaoal  court  at  t|)at  time? — No,  there  was 
BMhii^  pointed  out  in  it,  that  I  recollect. 

Was  the  commission  produced  at  that  court, 
and  read? — ^No,  it  was  not,  nor  any  compari- 
son made  between  them. 

Did  no  member  there  take  notice  of  any  al- 
teition  between  one  and  the  other?— Not 
that  I  recollect;  and  I  cannot  aee  how  they 
could,  unless  they  had  had  them  both  before 
them? 

How  soon  did  you  observe^  or  were  you  ac- 
qnainied  with  the  alterations  in  the  charter? 
—I  never  knew  any  thing  of  the  alterations 
in^self  in  the  charter;  I  never  compared  it 
with  the  commission;   I  concluded  it  was 

Kly  settled,  having  gone  through  such 
;  tiU  Mr.  Batlli^  pointed  thtm  out  in 


I  his  book,  no  other  alteration  than  the  security 
clause,  that  was  an  addition  as  it  stands  upon 
the  books,  as  recommended  to  be  inserted. 

[Mr.  Ibbetson  withdrew,  and  the  House  ad- 
journed to  Monday.] 

Mr.  Everaiy  the  Solidtor,  called  in. 

Have  you*  brought  those  papers  that  wei« 
ordered  ? — I  have.    [Produces  some  Papers.] 

What  are  these  papers  ? — The  ■  several 
draughts  and  copies  of  charters,  that  I  have 
been  able  to  collect  unce  last  Friday. 

That  you  have  been  able  to  collect? — ^Yes. 

When  were  those  draughts  and  papers  made 
out? — ^The  first  was  drawn  by  myself;  was 
corryted,  as  I  find  afterwards,  by  Mr.  Sib- 
thorpe,  who  was  then  joint  solicitor  of  the 
Hospital  with  me ;  a  copy  was  made  fi«ni 
that,  and  laid  before  Mr.  Eden,  and  corrected 
by  him  after  that;  three  copies  were  made^. 
one  for  the  Attorney  GeneraL  one  for  the  So- 
licitor General,  and  another  for  Mr.  Eden. 

Are  those  all  the  papers  that  you  have  pro- 
duced?— I  was  going  on,  if  the  Ctmmutleo 
will  eive  me  leave :  the  Attorney  and  Soli- 
citor General  advised,  by  an  opinion  in  writing 
at  the  end  of  one  of  them,  that  a  clause  should 
be  added  for  the  treasurer  to  eive  security: 
this  was  laid  before  the  board  otdirectors,  and 
thev  ordered  the  clause  to  be  drawn ;  accord- 
ingly a  copy  was  then  made  for  the  board, 
with  the  clause  inserted;  I  find,  l^  the  mi- 
nutes  of  the  board,  that  it  was  then  laid  be- 
fore the  board,  and  they  made  alterations  in 
it ;  from  thence  another  copy  vras  made  for 
the  general  court,  and  by  ttiem  finally  ap- 
proved. 

Are  these  all  the  papers? — ^I  have  not  them 
all. 

Are  those  that  you  have  been  describing  all 
the  papers  ^ou  have  brought  vrith  your— I 
will  r«id  their  titles. 

Are  the^.  or  are  they  not,  all  you  have 
brought  With  you  ? — ^I  have  not  brought  all  I 
have  been  describing, because  I  couldnot  find 
them  all;  what  I  nave  brought  is  tiiefint 
draught  which  I  drew  myself,  and  which  was 
corrected  by  Mr.  Sibthorpe ;  that  was  after- 
wards corrected  by  Mr.  Eden,  and  then  the 
third  draught  was  corrected  by  the  Attorney 
and  Solicitor  General,  and  Mr.  Eden. 

Have  you  any  papers  but  what  you  have 
produced  ?^None,  but  what  I  have  produced. 

Have  you  searched  into  the  record-room, 
and  made  any  enquiry  concerning  these  old 

Spers  and  draughts  you  spoke  of  the  other 
y?— I  have  been  into  the  record-room  and 
searched  there ;  I  found  that  the  papers  were 
not  there,  but  in  my  possession,  and  I  have 
now  delivered  them  to  your  lordships. 

Were  there  any  other  alterations  ever  made 
in  the  draiight  of  the  charter,  but  those  you 
have  mentioned  ? — ^No. 

Did  you  ever  converse  with  any  body  else, 
but  those  that  you  have  named,  upon  tha- 
drawing  of  the  charter,  to  [au.  with]  my  lord 
Sandwich,  or  any  of  the  loros  of  the  Adou* 
ral^?^N^. 


18  GEORGE  HI.  The  Cau  qfCaptaiii  Thaam  BaUUei         [9S 

but  the  answer  ww,  you  had  better  go  to  the 
usual  foim  for  it  through  the  crown  offiGcn; 
we  don't  wish  it  agitated  here.  The  business 
of  the  charter  then  went  on,  and  several  meet- 
ings were  had  about  it;  I  beliere  about  this 
time,  till  in  the  month  of  March^  17711,  that  I 
then  pve  instructionB  to  the  solicitors  of  the 
Hosphal.  Mr.  Sibthorpe  and  Mr.  Eveiesi; 
Mr.  Sibthorpe,  very  emment  in  his  professioB 
there,  and  a  man  we  had  iiill  confidence  in; 
Mr.  Everest  was  then  a  very  younff  man;  I 
directed  them  to  prepare  a  draught  for  us  to 
look  at  They  prepared  a  draught  upon  the 
ground  of  the  Foundling  HospitaPs  charter 
and  the  commission,  takmg  out  as  much  of 
the  commission  as  they  tfaoueht  applied  far 
the  benefit  of  the  Hospital;  when  it  came  to 
be  put  into  the  charter,  I  did  not  know  who 
prepaiedit,but  I  now  understand  Mr.  Everest 
did ;  Mr.  Sibthorpe  corrected  it,  and  brau{^ 
it  so  corrected  to  UK.  Thbdon't  car^nau  I 
believe,  later  down  than  the  month  of  itoeh ; 
I  made  some  corrections,  which  I  understand 
are  now  before  the  House,  and  which  nu^  be 
aeen ;  in  making  those  corrections,  i  should 
not  have  thought  it  necessary  to  have  retabied 
a  single  syllable  of  the  commission,  if  I  eould 
have  suggested  better  words;  I  beheve,  howu 
ever,  itso  happened,  that  in  general  the  ex- 
pressions of  the  old  commission  ate  retained, 
as  iiir  as  they  were  proper  to  be  retained. 
There  were  several  o&er  things  occurred  in 
settling  that  charter,  which  seamed  material 
to  be  attended  to  for  the  benefit  of  the  Ho9w 
pital.  Hitherto  we  had  a  considetaUe  estsk 
blishment  for  the  benefit  of  the  beys  who 
were  sons  of  seamen.  That  establishmeat 
had  not  been  r^ularly  put  under  theestar- 
blishment  of  the  Hospital ;  it  arose  from,  and 
was  supported  by,  some  c^^gent  sunii. 
The  boys  ffo  off  in  three  years  toknd^  com- 
pleted m  their  education.  This  wae  srown 
so  considerable  an  establishment,  tSat  il 
seemed  material  to  subject  that  to  a  eenenl 
court,  and  the  general  form  that  goes  wongh 
the  rest  of  the  regular  business  that  is  inserted 
in  the  charter,  not  in  the  former  oonumaskMn ; 
so  all  the  security  clauses  of  those  that  have 
the  Hospital  money  pass  throuj^  theii  haads» 
were  submitted  for  the  opinion  of  the  Attam 
ney  and  Solicitor  Genend,  and  they  gave 
their  opinion  that  it  was  necessary  to  insott 
such  a  clause :  that  is  a  oonsidnabls  benefit 
to  the  Hospital,  as  at  all  times  there  is  at  least 
50,000/.  or  60,000/.  m  cirodation^  fot  which 
liie  Hospital  before  had  no  secunty^  and  for 
which  it  has  now  a  full  security,  'fhcre  were 
some  provisions  put  into  the  charter  about 
the  i^er  of  altering  and  dy»poang  of  the 
Hospital's  lands,  which  I  hear  has  dnwm 
some  attenti<m.  As  £ur  as  I  can  lecolleet  of 
the  matter,  I  apprehend  that  no  such  power  ef 
aliening  or  disposing  of  at^  thing  b  men  by 
these  woids :  I  conceive  them  to  oe  mere 
words  of  fonn,  so  &r  as  relates  to  any  p06a»« 
bility  of  impainng  the  property  of  the  HospW 
*  Now  [a.  d.  i;i4.]  Lord  AttAlaait,  tal :  I  conceive  that  evcfy  purchaser  tnkM» 


91] 

Nor  receive  any  message  up<m  the  subject 
fimn  any  body  ?— Ngne. 

Was  Mr.  Ibbetson  concerned  in  drawing  up 
that  charters—Not  by  any  means. 

What  was  the  expence  of  the  charter? — ^I 
have  not  taken  that  out. 

Do  you  know  how  much  you  have  received 
upon  that  account  ?•— Upon  account  of  the 

doarter? 

Upon  account  of  the  expence  of  passing  it? 
— I  am  not  prepared  at  present  to  answer  that 
question,  but  I  believe  it  was  upwards  of  a 
UKWsand  pounds :  if  the  House  have  any  i^sh 
to  go  into  that,  I  will,  upon  another  day,  proo 
duce  idl  the  papers  I  can  respecting  thaU 

When  did  you  propose  to  return  those  par 
pers  tiiat  belongeo  to  the  record-rocMn  ? — ^I  had 
not  foied  any  tune  in  my  own  mind  about  it; 
I  really  thought  they  were  returned ;  it  has 
been  a  long  tune  since  I  have  seen  any  thing 
of  then. 

Have  you  compared  any  of  those  old  papers 
unce  you  were  here  on  Friday  with  the  pre* 
sent  cnarter,  to  see  whether  the  alterations  in 
this  new  charter  are  contained  in  these  old 
papers  ?-*Some  of  them  are  in  the  old  draught 
of  a  charter  in  George  the  Snd^s  time,  which 
I  have  ddivered  to  your  lordships. 

Is  that  part  contained  in  that  old  p«per, 
which  gives  authority  to  the  lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty to  sell  the  Hospital  laud?— I  don't 
know. 

That  charter  never  passed,  did  it  ?— No. 
[Mr.  Everest  withdrew.] 

The  Auditor,  Mr.  Eden^  called  in. 

Please  to  nve  the  Committee  an  account 
of  what  you  Know  relative  to  the  passing  the 
newcluurter  of  Greenwich  Hospital? — ^In  the 
begimung  of  the  year  1779.  Mr.  Ellis,  the 
steward  of  the  Hospital,  fiuleu  for  a  consider- 
able sum  of  money,  I  believe  about  d,MM>/. ; 
I  was  at  that  time  at  the  fawr,  and  acted  as 
ooiiOttal  for  the  Hospital;  it  was  my  duty  to 
settle  the  form  ^  recovering  this  money;  I 
found,  on  looldng  into  the  matter,  that  it  was 
veiv  difficult  to  curect  a  mode  of  prosecution; 
and  I  also  found,  that  if  any  such  mode  could 
be  carried  o%  there  weie  no  means  of  recover- 
ing, in  case  Mr.  Ellis's  circumstaiices  should 
be  found  tnsoKent ;  for  there  had  been  no 
jMUiUj!  ^^nM  bv  him,  or  indeed  anv  other 
person,  entrusted  with  the  money  of  tne  Hos- 
pital: it  was  my  duty  to  represent  this  to  the 
beard  of  directors;  andlpomtedouttothem, 
that  thev  were  ctorectcd  under  the  commis- 
siooy  under  vriiich  we  acted,  to  have  a  char- 
ter. I  knew  that  under  that  charter  it  would 
be  easy  to  euard  aratnst  any  such  iioconve- 
nienoe  in  foture.  The  board  upon  this  di- 
facted  that  the  matter  should  be  consideied,  I 
believe,  by  myself,  and  the  then  Attorney  and 
Soifitor  General.  It  was  our  first  wish  of 
aUy  I  believe,  to  have  had  this  charter  passed 

It  was  moved  in  parliament, 


tSj       nspecling  ike  Royal  Hospital  at  Greemoich.  A.  D.  i77d. 


[M 


iriljsctlDthattnist,  and  at  his  own  peril;  so 

fir  m  those  wovds  Ave  a  power  of  purchasing, 

IdonHknow,  I  rather  apprehend  tney  do  not; 

Ar  ia  cases  sabsequent,  I  understand  it  has 

kci  kmd  oecessaiy  to  liave  special  licences 

Aon  flie  crown  to  nuike  those  purchases ;  and 

k  Kgud  to  exchanges,  it  happened  two  years 

agOy  when  there  was  an  exchange,  and  then 

it  wu  found  necessary  to  pass  an  act  for  that 

piapoie,  which  aet  actuaUy  passed. 

I  have  not  looked  into  tne  thine,  because 
As  House  did  not  give,  me  notice  S^t  I  was 
M  h$  summoned  here ;  I  heard  it  by  accident ; 
I  have  not  had  much  time  to  look  into  it ; 
bu^  I  believe,  that  upon  looking  into  the  acts, 
mdk  vest  tne  IDeiwentwater  estates  in  the 
Hbapila],  it  will  be  found,  that  no  charter  of 
4ie  nog's  akme  can  turn  and  affect  that,  ex- 
chtsive  of  the  nature  of  the  trust,  by  which 
•BT  purchaser  might  be  subject  to  the  trust ; 
1 00  not  ^  this  moment  recollect  any  other 
mstioiis  m  the  charter.  There  h  an  omis- 
M,  which  has  been  taken  notice  of:  the  go- 
asEU  courts  recommending  the  persons  proper 
Id  be  admitted ;  the  words  that  were  m  the 
M  eommission  w^*e,  I  believe,  pretty  nearly 
th«e,  that  the  commissioners,  meaning  the 
faend  court,  shall  recommend  to  the  board 
w  Admiraltv,  to  appoint  officers  necessary  for 
the  Hospital.  Now  I  can  only  suppose  what 
I  <Kd  th«n  tiiink ;  by  what  I  think  now  upon 
%  it  can  only  lutve  one  of  two  meanings, 
Ma  that  I  must  have  thought  at  that  time, 
Ihatthe  commissioners  were  meant  to  recom- 
ttMd  the  persons,  so  that  tiiey  must  be  ap- 
pointed; in  which  case  I  should  have  had  no 
hesitatioD  of  striking  it  out,  because  I  am 
desriy  of  opinion,  it  is  a  much  better  trust  to 
bsiathe  hands  of  the  board  of  Admiralty, 
^must  know  the  merits  <^  seamen  who 
h»re  served,  than  in  the  hands  of  persons 
^rcbpectahle  in  life,  but  not  seamen.  I 
vujerstand  this  is  an  old  clause,  from  the  first 
ttstitotion  of  the  Hospital ;  and  I  conceive 
that  the  words  meant,  that  the  commissioners 
should  recommend  all  officers  necessary  to  be 
xtpsinted;  so  many  captains,  so  many  lieu- 
^eQants,and  so  on ;  but  that  the  board  of  Ad- 
■ihalty  are  to  name  the  particular  captains 
ud  lieutenants.  There  is  a  clause  too,  giving 
weAdmiralUr  ^wer  to  displace.  Now,  as 
w  as  that  addition  goes,  I  believe,  it  restrains 
"•power  of  the  Admiralty:  the  Admiralty 
■JwtoappcHnt,  and  do  now,  indeed,  till  fir- 
mer ofderj  what  I  must  have  thought  was 
vis^  that  mis  is  rather  a  hard  tenure  upon  an 
oU  officer  in  the  Hospital,  that  he  should 
hoW  it  during  the  will  of  the  board  of  Admi- 
™ty,  whatever  his  behaviour  was ;  therefore, 
jMawted,  I  think,  they  should  have  power  to 
*M«cefbr  misbehavkyor.  There  were  some 
2*«jjwds,  that  the  revenue  of  the  Hospital 
™odd  be  applied  to  the  purposes  of  the  chak 
™y>  «pd  no  other  purposes  whatever;  I  don't 
K<»Bect  (it  will  appear)  whether  I  scratched 
?*^^»OTds;  if  1  did,  I  am  not  ashamed  of 
9?  Decaose  they  are  words  ^t  mean  nothing; 


and,  at  this  instant,  if  applied  to  any  purposes, 
except  the  purposes  of  the  charity,  they  are 
punishable.  1  don't  know  whether  I  hAV% 
answered  the  noble  lord's  question,  but  I 
donH  recollect  any  thing  more  at.present. 

Whether  the  committee  is  to  understand 
from  what  you  have  sud,  that  these  several 
alterations  in  the  charter  were  made  by  yoor^ 
self  ?— Upon  my  word  timt  is  a  veiy  haitl 
question  to  answer;  I  have  not  seen  the 
paper,  except  casting  my  eyes  upon  than  h| 
the  bundle ;  I  have  not  seen  them  to  examine 
them,  therefore  I  cannot  tell ;  at  the  distance 
of  seven  years^  it  is  impossible  for  me  to  knom 
If  any  body  will  take  the  trouble  to  examine 
them,  my  hand-writins  is  very  easy  to  be 
seen,  wheth^  I  altereothem or  no;  I  appie* 
hena  I  am  responsible  for  every  word  that  Is 
in  this  charter. 

I  don't  mean  whether  you  are  answerable 
for  H  or  not;  but  I  want  to  know  the  hcL 
whether  you  made  the  alterations  pr  not;  if 
you  wish  to  satisfy  yourself^  bv  looking  into 
the  draueht  that  is  laid  before  tne  House,  that 
may  easuy  be  handed  up  to  you,  to  rdresh 
your  memory? — If  you  will  please  to  let  me 
see  the  draught,  I  will  tell  your  lordships. 

(The  draught  is  handed  to  Mr.  Eden.) 

Mr.  Eden.  I  certainly  did  notUter  every 
thins,  because  I  see  in  the  Attorney  OeneraFs 
brief,  there  are  some  passages  that  aie  altered. 

Please  to  look  at  the  alterations,  one  by  one, 
and  acquaint  the  committee  of  what  yon  have 
altered  r — ^In  my  brief^  there  does  not  happen 
to  be  one  alteration,  which  I  am  surprkea  at : 
but,  I  believe,  the  reason  was,  I  had  quit^ 
the  bar  before  it  was  brought  to  me. 

Then,  fix>m  thence,  are  we  to  uadarstand, 
that  none  of  the  alterations  were  nufede  by 
you?-— I  am  afVaid  to  say  that,  because  the 
solicitor's  having  free  access  to  me,  many 
thingsthat  may  appear  to  be  altered,  might 
be  by  their  askmg,  and  my  suggesting  aHera* 
tions :  I  should  mention,  that  there  appears 
to  be  a  great  delay  in  tnis  business;  it  wa« 
slated  in  the  beginning  of  tike  year  1779,  and 
was  not  completed  tiu*  tiie  end  of  the  year 
1775 ;  in  the  course  of  that  time  it  was  revised 
very  repeatedly  by  difierent  persons;  and 
was,  I  believe,  a  long  time  before  the  Attorney 
and  Solicitor  General ;  ihey  had  too.  much  bu- 
siness to  give  it  out  of  their  hands^  but  at  last 
it  did  come,  though  I  have  sent  for  tlMttr  re- 
port upon  it ;  it  was  brought  to  me  f^m  ^tM 
secretary  of  state's  office,  and  I  have  it  here| 
if  the  House  wish  to  see  it. 

(It  is  banded  up  to  the  table.) 

There  were  some  other  persons  consulted 
in  this  charter.  I  believe;  who  were  these 
persons?  I  understood  you  to  say,  it  was  laid 
before  the  Attorney  and  ^licitor  General, 
and  soine  other  persons  ?-~I  am  misunder- 
stood, I  am  afraid ;  I  don't  recollect  any  othet  ^ 
persons,  except  Mr.  Sibthorpe,  the  solicitor  of' 
the  Hospital;  I  Ad  not  mean  to  say  sir. 


W] 


18  GEORQE  UL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thonuu 


r 


[99 


Can  you  recollect  that  particular  circum-r 
Btance.  of  th^  recominendation  being  taken 
£rom  tne  general  court,  having  been  agitated 
and  di9CU88ed  between  you  and  any  other  per- 
aon?— No,  I  do  not  indeed ;  it  is  very  aiffi- 
cultyupon  the  short  notice  I  have  had,  to 
have  any  recollection  of  these  particulars.  I 
don't  know  how  it  happened,  but  I  had  not 
that  attention  shewn  me  which  is  usual ;  for  I 
bad  not  any  notice  of  it.  till  I  went  into  the 
House  of  Commons  to-oay ;  and  if  I  had  not 
be^n  very  miich  disposed  to  it,  I  should  not 
have  attended,  for  the  House  would  have  in- 
terposed respecting  it. 

X  ou  have  said,!  think,  that  you  look  upon 
yourself  as  answerable  for  all  these  alterations, 
irhether  you  made  them  or  not,  as  the  draught 
was  lud  before  you?  Do  you  think  that  a 
proper  alteration  for  the  recommendation  be- 
Vig  made  to  the  board  of  Admiralty,  from  the 
general  court?  you  said,  that  the  board  of  Ad- 
miralty were  much  better  judges  of  the  merit 
of  seamen;  that  though  the  general  court 
consisted  of  very  respectable  persons,  yet 
they  were  not  seamen.  Had  you  it  in  con- 
templation, that  the  general  court  consisted 
of  all  the  flag-of&cersr-r-I  conceive  that  the 
seamen  have  the  best  guardians  of  their  me- 
nts  at  the  board  of  Amnirsdty ;  but  there  b 
another  objection,  which  is  a  very  forcible 
one ;  that  is,  that  the  general  court  meet  at 
very  uncertain  times,  sometimes  at  six  or 
seven  months  distance.  Now  suppose  a  cap- 
tain in  Greenwich  Hospital  dies. 

The  general  court  were  directed  to  assem- 
ble four  .times  a  year,  by  the  commission ;  by 
this  charter,  which  you  have  taken  upon  you 
to  answer  tor,  they  are  directed  to  assemble 
twke  a  yepur;  but,  I  believe,  they  can  at  any 
time  assemble  a  court? — The  charter  directs 
them  to  assemble  twice  a  year;  before,  they 
were  directed  to  assemble  four  times  a  vear; 
but  many  things  broke  through  that,  ancf  they 
could  not  meet  upon  it 

As  ]^ou  don't  recollect  at  all  any  one  of  the 
alterations,  can  you  take  upon  you  to  say, 
whether  they  were  of  your  recommending  or 
putting  in? — ^I  believe,  if  they  were  gone 
throu^  singly,  many,  I  should  vouch  for 
v^  readily,  to  the  best  of  my  belief. 

The  draught  you  have  been  looking  at,  is, 
I  presume^  Uie  draught  in  the  hand-writing 
ot  the  Sohcitor? — ^It  is. 

Was  that  draught  the  first  you  ever  saw  of 
this  business;  had  you  conversed  with  the 
SoiUcitor.  or  any  other  person,  upon  the  sub- 
ject, before  you  saw  the  draught? — ^At  that 
time  I  must  nave  conversed  very  firequeutly, 
because  I  was  much  at  Greenwich,  and  at- 
tended the  board  very  frequently,  and  must, 
as  I  saw  the  Solicitor  there,  converse  with 
him  frequently. 

Then,  I  should  presume,  you  can  recollect 
whether  you  were  the  adviser,  or  any  other 
person,  of  those  alterations? — I  should  pre- 
;isume  I  was  the  adviser,  as  I  was  ihuch  more 
acquainted  with  the  subject  than  the  Attorney 


or. Solicitor  General  were,  and  they  bdng 
much  more  employed  than  I  was  in  other 
matters. 

You  still  seem  to  think,  that  all  these  alte- 
rations might  spring  originally  from  yourself? 
— ^I  think,  m  the  nature  of  the  business,  the^ 
must  have  sprung  from  myself;  I  think  it 
was  more  likely  the  Solicitor  would  have  con* 
suited  tne  about  them,  than  have  taken  it 
upon  himself,  as  I  was  always  attentive 
to  it. 

Then  it  was  of  your  own  suggestion,  to  take 
the  power  from  the  general  court,  and  give  it 
to  the  Admiralty?^  don't  think  that  is  done 
by  the  charter. 

I  will  read  the  words  of  the  commission  to 
you,  [reads  them]  *^  And  we  do  l^reby  em- 
power and  direct  you,  our  said  commissioners, 
or  any  seven  or  more  of  you,  to  recommend  to 
our  commissioners  for  executing  the  office  of 
high  admiral  now,  and  for  the  time  being ;  or 
our  hieh  admiral  for  the  time  bdhg,  to  ap- 
point, mm.  time  to  time,  all  officers  necessary 
to  be  employed  in  and  for  the  said  Hospital ; 
and  we  do  hereby  empower  our  commissioners 
for  executing  the  offi^  of  high  admiral  now^ 
and  for  the  time  being,  to  appoint  all  such  ou 
ficers  accordingly,  except  tne  governor  and 
treasurer  of  the  said  Hospital,  provided,  that 
for  the  future,  all  such  persons  to  be  so  re- 
commended and  admitted  into  the  said  Hos- 
pital, as  the  officers  of  the  house,  or  otherwise, 
be  sea-&ring  men,  &c.  &c."  These  are  the 
words  of  the  commission.  Do  tiiese  words 
import,  or  do  they  not,  that  the  general  court 
have  the  power  of  recommending  all  their 
officers  ?— I  don't  know  what  I  thought  then, 
but  I  now  think,  that  those  words  do  merely 
mean  only  this,  that  the  general  court  was  ta 
recommend  the  officers  necessary,  that  it  was 
to  recommend  the  establishment  of  the  Hoa- 

Eital;  because,  I  believe,  that  the  clause  will 
e  found  in  the  original  charter,  before  there 
was  any  establishment  at  all ;  that  is  to  say, 
that  there  should  be  so  many  captains,  so 
manv  boatswains.  &c.  and  that  then  the  Ad- 
mirals was  to  fill  them  up,  by  inserting  pro- 
per officers,  those  officers  being  seamen. 

The  commission  says,  that  the  general 
court  are  to  recommend,  and  the  Admindty  t» 
appoint  accordingly,  as  they  are  recommend- 
ed. Now  the  recommendation,  such  as  it  is, 
is  totally  omitted  here.  I  desire  to  know, 
whether  that  omission  of  ^e  recommendation 
is  of  your  doing  and  advising,  or  whether  it 
came  from  any  other  quarter? — ^It  certeinly 
must  be  of  my  doing,  or  of  my  approving. 

And  fix)m  no  other  quarter  whatever  ? — ^No; 
excepting  the  solicitor  of  the  Hospital,  I  don't 
know  that  ever  I  consulted  an  v  person  in  my 
life ;  and,  if  it  is  an  allusion,  that  I  consulted 
with  the  Admiralty,  I  must  say,  very  solemn- 
ly, that  I  don't  bdieve  that  the  Admiralty 
knew  of  this  thing  till  it  was  in  a  great  degree 
of  completion ;  I  believe  the  charter  was  ver^ 
batim,  as  it  now  stands,  before  the  Adniiftdty 
knew  of  it ;  and,  I  believe,  there  are  minute^ 


9f]         raptcitmg  the  Royal  Hatplal  at  Greenmch.         A.  D.  1778. 


\m 


m  the  possesion  of  the  <  Admiralty,  if  they 
choose  to  look  to  them,  that  will  prove  that. 

I  understood  Mr.  Everest,  the  other  dav, 
that  he  took  those  alterations  from  certain  old 
papers,  &om  former  charters? — Here  is  a 
oiaiightof  a  charter,  I  believe  in  the  year 
1780. 

Are  any  of  these  alterations  suggested*  in 
thb  cbarter? — I  believe,  if  it  is  looked  at,  it 
will  not  be  found,  that  this  charter,  though 
drawn  by  able  men  at  the  time^  followed  a 
angle  word  of  the  existing  commission  at  the 
time ;  I  believe  the  persons  that  drew  it  did 
not  think  it  necessary  to  adhere  to  the  old 
charter,  but  to  draw  a  good  charter  from  them, 
for  which  they  would  be  answerable. 

If  I  understood  you  rigjht,  vou  said,  and  re- 
peated it  just  now,  that  m  drawing  the  new 
charter,  you  did  not  feel  yourself  ooimd,  or 
limiled  in  any  respect,  by  the  commission  ? — 
I  certainly  meant  to  draw  as  good  a  charter 
ibr  the  Hospital,  as  I  could  draw. 

Then  the  charter  you  looked  upon  as  tanta- 
mount to  a  new  constitution  of  Greenwich 
Hospital  ? — I  looked  upon  it,  as  the  instru- 
ment which  vras  to  give  further  powers,  that 
were  found  in  the  commission  to  be  wantins, 
and  to  draw  every  thing  else  for  the  benefit 
of  the  Hospital  that  could  possibly  be  done 
under  that  instrument. 

Did  you  feel  yourself,  in  that  situation, 
warranted  in  drawing  and  forming  a  new  con- 
stitution for  Greenwich  Hospital,  without 
consulting  any  of  the  king's  ministers  what- 
ever, and  particularly  those  at  the  liead  of  tiie 
naval  albirs  ? — I  don't  feel  that  I  did  draw  a 
new  constitution,  only  that  I  was  drawing 
improvements  to  what  was  existing  before, 
snd  some  essentially  necessary. 

Did  you,  or  did  you  not,  in  respect  to  these 
improvements,  take  the  opinion  of  anv  person 
in  the  king's  council  ? — I  solemnly  declare  I 
did  not 

I  shall  be  glad  to  ask  you  a  question,  which 
aeems  a  weighty  one:  you  said,  that  you 
thought  y6urself  responsible  for  the  alterations 
in  the  draught  of  the  charter,  tiiough  the  al- 
terations should  not  be  founa  in  your  hand- 
writing. Now  I  ask  whether  you  do  not  think 
you  were  exonerated  from  that  responsibility, 
nom  the  moment  you  laid  the  draught  of  that 
charter  before  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  Ge- 
neral,  and  had  their  approbation  of  it? — I  cer- 
tainly shall  be  veiy  glad  to  share  any  cnmi^ 
nah^'  with  the  then  Attorney  and  Solicitor 


In  what  year  were  you  appointed  auditor  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  ? — ^In  March,  1771. 

Whom  did  you  succeed  ? — The  present  lord 
chancellcM*. 

What  do  you  look  upon  to  be  your  duty  as 
auditor  of  Greenwich  Hospital  ?— To  audit  the 
accounts,  atler  a  manner  prescribed  by  the 
constitution  of  Greenwich  Hospital ;  there  is 
a  book  recites  that. 

Do  you  not,  at  yomr  first  appointment,  look 
ipon  yourself  as  counsel  for  Greenwj|ch  Hos- 

V04  xxz. 


pital  ?— As  that  office  always  used  to  be  filled 
by  a  barrister,  it  was  a  mark  of  attention  in 
appointing  me,  I  then  being  a  banister; 
when  I  discontinued  being  a  barrister,  I  gave 
up  every  paper  respecting  the  Hospital. 

Were  not  you  a  diredor  at  first  ? — ^I  was, 
two  or  three  months. 

How  ? — ^I  was  a  director  by  warrant. 

Are  you  now  ? — Yes. 

How  ? — Ex  officio.  Before  I  was  personally 
auditor,  and  personally  director  \  at  present,  I 
am  auditor  and  tx  officio  director :  if  I  cease 
to  be  auditor,  I  cease  to  be  director ;  before  I 
had  warrants  by  name  from  the  Admiralty. 

Who  laid  the  new  charter  before  the  Attor- 
ney and  Solicitor  General,  or  by  whose  direc- 
tions was  it  laid  before  them  ? — I  fancy  it  was 
by  the  direction  of  the  board.  If  the  minutes 
of  the  board  are  called  for^  I  fancy  it  will  be 
found,  that  the  draught  of^  the  charter  being 
produced,  it  was  ordered  to  be  laid  before  the 
Attorney  and  Solicitor  General. 

Whether  there  was  any  particular  opinion, 
stated  in  writing,  to  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor 
General,  or  the  copy  of  the  commission  laid 
before  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General  to 
be  compared.  Was  any  opinion  asked  ? — ^The 
charter  recites  that  commission ;  I  apprehend 
the  commission  was  laid  before  them ;  but  if 
not,  I  take  it  for  granted,  the  Attorney  and 
Solicitor  General  must  have  examined  it  at 
the  time,  because  it  is  recited  in  the  draught 
of  the  charter. 

Then  no  particular  opinion  was  desired  of 
any  particular  fact? — ^No;  I  apprehend  all 
that  was  done,  was  giving  this  paper  to  their 
clerks,  which  is  a  draught  of  the  cnarter,  and 
which  they  have  signed  at  the  bottom,  afler 
making  any  alterations  that  they  had  thought 
necessary. 

How  long  was  the  charter  laid  before  the 
Attorney  and  Solicitor-General,  before  it  was 
returned  to  you? — ^It  was  never  to  be  re- 
turned to  me;  I  was  not  the  solicitor  for  thok 
charter,  it  was  laid  before  me  in  the  same 
manner  as  it  was  laid  before  them.  When  I 
Quitted  the  bar,  I  gave  back  my  brief,  and 
tney  having  other  occunations,  I  believe  did 
not  give  it  back  till  Marcn  1773 ;  I  know  that, 
as  a  director  of  the  Hospital ;  I  believe  it  was 
returned  by  them  in  tne  spring  following ; 
then  several  difficulties  and  delays  arose;  I 
believe,  about  the  quantum  of  security  to  be 
given  by  persons  having  the  Hospital's  mo- 
ney; that  carried  iton^  I  believe,  until  the 
end  of  the  year  1775,  before  the  whole  business 
was  arranged  and  settied. 

You  say  you  sire  answerable  for  all  that  is 
lefl  out.  In  the  appointment,  *  in  and  for 
Greenwich  Hospital  to  be  seafaring  men,'  why 
was  the  word  **  for'  lefl  out  ? — I  did  not  know 
that  it  was  left  out^  I  don't  know  now  that  it 
is  left  out. 

^  All  the  officers  of  the  House,  or  otherwise, 

to  be  seafaring  men,'  why  are  the  words  '  or 

otherwise'  left  out  ? — I  should  rather  venture 

to  risk  the  saying^  it  was  not  ioserted  in  any 

H 


99] 


IS  GEORGE  III.         The  Case  of^aptain  Thmas  BaULk^         (KM 


draught  that  was  laid  before  me ;  I  will  ven- 
ture to  say^  I  should  not  have  put  it  into  any 
^ught,  and  will  venture  to  say,  I  should  npt 
have  struck  it  out.  I  forgot  to  mention  there 
'was  an  act  of  parliament  passed,  in  regard  to 
the  landed  estate^  a  year  after  this  charter, 
which  takes  notice  of  the  charter. 

I  understood  you,  that  the  motives  of  the 
new  charter  was  to  vest  the  landed  estates, 
and  give  a  power  to  buy  and  sell  landed 
estates. — ^No.  by  no  means,  the  meat  motives 
of  the  new  cnarter  were,  to  enable  the  Hospi- 
tal to  act  in  all  those  capacities  that  it  was  ne- 
cessary a  corporation  should  act  in ;  because, 
it  was  before  necessary  to  make  every  mem- 
ber of  tiie  Hospital  a  party  in  civil  suits.  An- 
other great  motive  was,  to  give  the  Hospital  a 
«ecuri^  Tor  their  money.  Another  was  the 
case  of  the  boys. 

The  other  alterations  of  the  charier  were 
made  by  the  solicitor,  which  you  did  not  at- 
tend to  ? — ^I  cannot  quite  say  so,  because  my 
own  hand  is  before  the  House  and  may  prove 
against  me,  but  I  rather  believe  it  is  so. 

Was  the  charter  confirmed  by  act  of  parlia- 
inent? — ^Not  strictiy,  but  there  b  an  act  to 
vei«t  the  estates,  which  were  prior  to  the 
charter,  and  by  charter  were  strictiy  vested 
by  two  acts  of  George  the  Snd.  There  is  an 
act,  a  year  af\er  this  charter,  which  vests 
them  out  of  the  king  into  the  commissioners, 
pursuant  to  charter,  and  which  recites  this 
charter  at  that  time. 

It  appears,  by  the  Records,  that  this  matter 
of  charter  had  been  in  agitation  several  times 
formerly? — I  believe  from  the  beginning  of 
the  century.  I  believe  there  are  draughts  of 
charters  as  old  as  1790,  but  all  that  time  the 
Hospital  was  in  a  fluctuating,  unsettied  body, 
and  rather  pressed  for  supports,  and  not  in  the 
magnitude  that  I  found  it. 

You  take  that  to  be  the  reason,  when 
draughts  were  made,  that  the  Hospital's  reve- 
nues were  not  sufficient  ? — ^I  believe,  when  the 
Hospital  ^rew  to  this  magnitude,  that  the  ne- 
cessity or  getting  a  charter  was  felt ;  and  it 
was  a  work  of  some  time,  and  great  trouble,  to 
get  it  through  the  several  offices. 

What  part  of  the  establishment  of  Green- 
wich Hosoital  do  you  mean,  that  has  not  been 


believe  additional  captsuns  and  UcHtenants, 
and  men.  and  many  officers  to  attend  those 
men.  All  the  business  pf  the  management  of 
the  Derwentwater  estate  is  a  very  modem 
story,  and  was  never  settied,  in  the  manner  it 
is  now,  till  1749.     [Mr.  Eden  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Sibtkorpe,  (late  Solicitor  to  the  Hospital) 

called  in. 

Please  to  ave  an  account  to  the  Committee 
of  what  you  know  relative  to  the  new  charter 
of  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — ^About  the  beginning 
of  the  vear  1772  of  7S,  I  am  not  ouite  positive 
as  to  the  time  this  circumstance  happened  in 
ihe  Hospital,  I  was  at  that  time,  with  Mr. 
Everest,  joint  solicitor  of  the  UosptUtlf  lieute- 


nant^ovemor  Boys,  when  I  was  attending  at 
the  b^d,  I  believe  it  was  March  1778,  lieute- 
nant-governor Boys  was  in  the  chair,  at  the 
head  of  tiie  board,  the  solicitor  was  ordered  13 
be  called  in,  and  I  went  in. 

What  board?— The  board  of  directors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  at  the  Hospital.  The 
lieutenant  governor  said  to  me,  Mr.  £llis» 
Sir,  is  gone  away  with  the  Hospital's  money. 
I  said  I  had  heard  so.  Then  Sir,  said  he,  you 
must  contrive  to  get  it.  I  said .  I  thought  that 
was  impossible,  as  the  Hospital  was  then  cir* 
cumstanced :  I  asked  Mr.  Boys  how  it  was  to 
be  done.  Sir,  said  he,  it  must  be  done.  I 
answered,  that  might  be  very  well  in  his  idea^ 
but  it  was  not  possible,  in  mv  opinion ;'  for 
that  there  seemed  to  be  no  mode  of  setting  at 
this  money,  but  by  filing  a  bill  or  imonnaUon, 
in  the  name  of  the  attorney  general,  at  the  ref- 
lation of  the  governor  of  the  liospitol,  against 
Mr.  Ellis  for  an  account,  and  that  before  that 
business  could  bejgot  to  perfection,  Mr.  lEllls 
would  be  gone.  There  dia  not  appear  to  me  to 
be  any  shorter  way,  as  no  person  wnatever  could 
possibly  swear  that  Mr.  Ellis  was  indebted  to 
nim,  or  to  a  rope  of  sand,  for  so  I  caUed  the 
Hospital  at  that  time,  it  not  beinjg  incorporated. 
I  was  then  directed,  as  solicitor,  with  Mr. 
Everest,  to  tsdce  the  opinion  of  Mr.  Eden,  and 
I  believe  too  of  the  attom^-general,  as  to 
the  proper  mode  of  proceedmg  against  Ellis. 
Some  of  the  directors  seemed  to  be  struck  with 
what  I  said,  and  thought  it  might  beneces- 
sary  to  have  fiirther  powers  vested  ilfSem, 
and  that  there  shoula  be  a  charter,  and  that 
gave  rise  to  this  charter  in  a  very  sfiort  tim^ 
ailer,  perliaps  even  at  the  same  board ;  Iml, 
in  a  very  short  time  €Ufter,  the  board  of  direc- 
tors came  to  a  resolution  that  a  charter  should 
be  applied  for  in  the  common  course  of  busi* 
ness.  When  the  minutes  were  brought  to  tht 
solicitor,  the  business  was  set  about;  Mr. 
Everest  drew  the  first  draught  and  brought  k 
to  me,  he  having,  I  believe,  under  my  oiiec- 
tions,  applied  for  and  ^ot  tiie  charter  for  ioi- 
corporating  the  Foundlmg  Hospital,  and  took 
that,  in  some  degree,  as  a  mode  for  the  words; 
of  course,  after  he  had  made  his  first  ina^t, 
ne  brought  that  draught  to  me,  in  whidi  I 
made  several  alterations,  and  after  I  had  made 


settled  till  within  this  two  or  three  years?— 1 1  those  alterations,  that dnuight  was  copied  and 

Isud  before  Mr.  Eden:  Mr.  Eden,  I  think,  I 
am  pretty  sure  too.  made  some  small  altera*- 
tioiis  in  the  draugnt  so  laid  before  him,  and 
also  drew  out  a  paper  in  which  he  prescribed 
other  alterations,  and,  in  pursuance  of  which 
direction  firom  tdi.  Eden,  I  did,  in  thatdraught, 
make  more  alterations  than  I  had  in  the 
former  draught,  my  lords.  The  matters  being 
in  that  state,  Mr.  Eden  returned  the  draught, 
and  said,  tluit  he  though  it  was  a  proper 
dnuttht ;  and  then,!  take  it,  that  the  draii^ght 
itseltwas  copied  and  laid  before  the  then  at- 
torney-general, another  oopv  was  made  for 
the  solicitor  general,  and  a  third  copy  for  Mr. 
Eden,  with  mtent  that  they  shoula  meet  to- 
gett^r  in  consultation,  and  s^Ule  the  chactec 


M]      rap&Bthig  ^  ikayai  tfa^pUal  at  Greemoidi*        A.  D.  ms* 


[102 


n  it  ODgbt  to  b6.    After  the  Misiness  was 
got  into  tbat  stage,  there  was  a  meeting  be- 
tween the  the&  attorney  and  solicitor  general, 
and  Mr.  Eden,,  at  which  I  was  present.    I 
Ifamk,  and  am  pretty  certain  too,  though  I 
iave  not  had  any  connection  with  the  Hospi* 
tdfor  about  three  years  past,  therefore  if  I 
or  it  may  be  easily  allowed  me,  ^at  there 
wen  some  alterations  made  in  the   copy, 
ubich  Mr,   Wedderbum  had  as  his  copy; 
tboe  «asadiTecti<Hi  also  at  the  bottom  of  one 
of  these  oc^ies^  signed  by  the  then  attorney 
fBoeral,  and  Mr.  Wedderbum,  directing  the 
MHity  clause  to-be  added  to  it;    that  clause 
wu  also  drawn,  and  they  approved  it.    In  the 
CQuraeof  this  business  me  charter,  or  draught 
af  the  charter  at  least,  was  laid  before  uie 
bond  of  directors,  I  think  more  than  once :  it 
nsBy  fewards  the  close  of  the  business,  laid 
hem  the  general  court,  and  it  was  at  that 
time^and  I  oelieve  the  only  time,  that  I  was 
ever  called  into  the  general  court  to  be  asked  a 
<|iie8lioii  respecting  that  charter.    I  had  ex- 
PfesMdm^  doubts  what  the  stile  of  the  Hos- 
fNtal  should  be  ;  I  thought  the  word  commis- 
asner  was  not  a  proper  one,  because  it  was  a 
charter,  aad  not  a  commission :  I  thought  the 
•wd  governor  not  a  very  proper  one,  there 
Kane  another  governor,  or  a  particular  officer 
ttUea  a  pernor :   I  thought  the  word  guar- 
fiao;  which  I  believe  is  part  of  the  title  of 
FoQEpdhn^    Hospital,    an   improper    thing. 
Having  signifiedT  these  doubts,  I  wa»  called 
inta  a  geoeral  co>urt  of  admiralty,  at  the  head 
afwfaidi  board  lord  Sandwich  was,  and  bavins 
been  asked,  I  am  not  sure  by  whom,  I  think 
Mr.  Stephens,  what  I  had  to  say  respecting 
the  titled    I  made  nearly  the  same  obser- 
vatioDsthen  that  I  have  now.    Lord  Sand- 
wich said,  it  did  not  seem  to  signify  one  far- 
thing what  they  were-  called,  so  that  they 
we  incorporated  by  some  title,  upon  which  I 
withdrew.    These  are  the  general  outlines  of 
^vhafc  I  have  had  to  do,  m  respect  of  this 
tharter.    It  was  my  duty,  after  the  business 
U  been  gone  tlu-ough  at  tiie  Admiradty, 
feciag  older  and  having  had  more  experience 
tban  Mr.  Everest,  to  conduct  the  matter, 
ttoie  especially  as  I  lived  in  town  and  he  at 
pteenwich,  and  I  prosecuted  the  charter  till 
it  got  under  the  grrait  seal ;  and,  I  think,  the 
m  Saturday,  or  perhaps  the  second  in  De- 
**»iber,  1775,  I  carried  the  charter  to  the 
Hospital,  and  thought  that  I  had  done  the 
w*l  noble  act  that  I  should  ever  do,  if  I 
lived  an  hundred  years. 

Whether  you  recollect  which  were  the 
tkeiationsthat  weretnade  by  Yourself,  before 
rt  was  sent  to  the  attorney  and  solicitor-eene^ 
nJ,  and  Mr.  Eden,  and  which  were  made  by 
"Osc  gentlemen  afterwards? — I  cannot  say  as 
to  the  purport  of  them  now,  if  I  had  the  pa- 
V^  1  believe  I  could  point  them  out^ 

Are  thw  the  pi^>ers  which  are  before  the 
™>ic  ?— I  bdieve  they  are. 

(.Some  papers  shewn  the  witness.) 


This  is  the  drau^t  as  first  prepared  by  Mr. 
Everest,  and  brougnt  by  him  to  me ;  tne  al- 
terations made  are  in  my  hand-writing,  and 
are  numerous. 

I  don't  mean  to  give  you  the  trouble  of 
mentioning  every  ven>al  alteration  you  have 
made,  but  to  particular  points ;  the  first  is, 
the  omitting  tne  oower  to  the  general  court, 
and  giving  it  to  uie  Admiralty ;  the  second, 
the  power  of  removal  in  the  Admiralty  ;  the 
third,  the  appropriation  of  these  monies  for 
the  use  of  the  Hospital;  the  fourth  is,  the 
|)Ower  of  selling  ? — As  to  one  of  these  ques-' 
tions,  ^e  words  of  this  first  draught,  as  it 
originally  stood,  were  those.    '*  And  that  the 
said  governor,  and  deputy-governor,  and  the 
treasurer  now  and  fbr  the  time  being,  do  as- 
sist at  all  meetings,  the  said  commissioners 
and  governors,  or  the  directors,  of  the  said 
Hospital  hereafter  mentioned ;   and  we  do 
hereby  empower  our  said  commissioners,  or 
any  seven  or  more  of  them,  to  recommend  to 
our  commissioner  for  executing  the  office  of 
high  admiral  now  and  for  the  time  being,  our 
high  admiral,  for  the  time  being,  or  as  they 
may  be,  to  appoint,  firom  time  to  time,  ail 
officers  necessary  to  be  employed  in  and  for 
the  said  Hospital."    These  words  were  in  this 
draught,  when  Mr.  Everest  first  drew  it  and 
brought  it  to  me. 

Is  the  word  *  accordingly^  there  ? — ^No,  I 
altered  it  in  this  way.  "  And  we  do  hereby 
empower  the  members  of  this  corporation,  or 
any  seven  or  more  of  them,  so  assembled  in  a 
general  court,  to  recommend  to  our  high  ad- 
miral, for  the  tune  being,  or  our  commission- 
ers for  executing  the  office  of  high  admiral, 
now  and  for  the  time  being,  to  appoint,  fi-om 
time  to  time,  all  officers  necessary  to  be  em- 
ployed in  and  for  the  ssud  Hospital.'^  And  it 
appears  by  ^is  draught,  that  upon  reconsi- 
dering that  clause,  I  struck  it  wholly  out. 

Will  you  be  pleased  to  recollect,  whether  it 
was  of  your  own  motion,  or  fix)m  instructions 
firom  any  body  else,  that  you  did  strike  that 
clause  out  f — ft  was  either  from  my  own  mo- 
tion, or  conjunction  with  Mr.  Everest,  in  con- 
sidering the  matter  again,  and  not  from  any 
person  whatever,  except  himself  and  me,  that 
that  alteration  was  maae  so. 

What  might  be  your  reason  for  striking  of 
that  out? — I  cannot  possibly  say  what  my 
reason  was,  but  I  am  well  convinced  ii\  my 
mind,  that  at  the  time  I  did  it,  I  had  good 
reason  for  so  doing  ;  for  I  had  no  wish  what- 
ever to  do  any  thmg  but  prepare  such  a  charr 
ter  as  should  be  for  the  benefit  of  the  Hospi- 
tal, in  all  its  parls,  as  far  as  my  judgment 
should  extend. 

Do  you  recollect  any  abuse  that  had  been 
made,'  by  that  power  in  the  general  court, 
that  made  you  tnink  it  necessary  to  strike  it 
out  ? — I  have  endeavoured  a  great  deal  to  re- 
collect since  what  I  heard  passed  from  Mr. 
Eden,  that  there  was  any  such  power  prac- 
tised by  the  general  court,  but  during  the 
time  I  had  the  mahagement  of  the  business  of 


87] 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  ofCaplidn  Thomas  BttUUet 


[88 


•therwiae  than  those  I  have  stated  to  your 
lordships. 

When  you  carried  the  charter,  to  lay  it  be- 
fore the  Attorney  ^nd  Solicitor  General,  did 
you  then  apprize  those  two  ereat  lawyers  that 
you  hadaltmd  several  of  the  points  from  the 
original  commission  f — I  did  not,  to  the  best 
«f  my  recollection,  take  it  to  tiie  Attorney  and 
Solicitor  Greneral;  a  Mr.  Sibthorpe,  who  was 
at  that  time  concerned  jointly  witn  me,  had  a 
great  deal  of  the  transaction  of  that  business 
with  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General. 

Do  you  undertake  to  sav  that  you  did  not 
carry  it  to  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General  ? 
— I  do  not  recollect  tbit  perfectly. 

As  your  memory  is  so  extremely  short,  I 
imagine  it  is  some  days  since  you  have  been 
sununoned  to  attend  this  House,  have  you 
ever  had'the  curiosity,  knowing  that  your  me- 
mory is  so  extremely  defective,  as  it  appears 
here,  to  compare  the  charter  with  the  original 
commission  ?— I  have  looked  at  them. 

How  long  ago  ?->I  was  looking  at  them  this 
momine. 

How  long  is  it  ago  since  you  were  summon- 
ed to  attend  this  Houseful  believe  about 
ten,  or  positively  [jqu.  ])ossibly]  eleven  days. 

Did  vou  notthmk  it  material,  when  you 
bad  had  so  £T^t  a  hand,  and  absolutely  the 
drawing  of  this  charter,  not  to  refiresh  so  short 
a  memoi^  as  vours  is,  with  the  particular  in- 
vestigation of  that  clmrter,  and  comparing  it 
with  the  commission  before  this  momingr— 
No ;  I  have  looked  at  it,  but  not  as  comparii^ 
it,  nor  under  any  ideift  of  giving  evidence  of  it 
here. 

Did  you  ever  take  notice  to  any  body,  that 
you  had  made  these  alterations  in  this  chctf- 
ter  ?_Not  that  I  recollect 

At  no  time  did  you  ever  mention  it  to  any 
body  ?— Not  that  I  know  of. 

How  long  is  it  since  you  have  been  sum- 
moned to  attend  this  House?— I  think,  about 
ten  or  eleven  days. 

Have  you  had  any  conversation  during  that 
time,  respecting  the  business  of  Greenwich 
Hospital? — I  have  conversed  at  several  times 
with  various  officers  of  the  Hospital. 

With  whom  upon  this  business? — ^I  believe 
most  of  the  officers;  I  don't  know  any  one 
particularly  that  I  have  conversed  with 
about  it. 

Have  you  conversed  upon  the  subject  of 
the  charter  ?— Not  that  I  know  of. 

How  long  have  vou  been  the  solicitor  to 
Greenwich  Hospital? — ^I  was  concerned  with 
Mr.  Sibthorpe  immediately  afier  my  fathei's 
death,  which  was  ten  vears  agb. 

How  were  you  bred?  To  whatbuuness? — 
An  attorney. 

How  long  have  you  been  an  attorney  ?— I 
was  an  attorney  veiy  soon  afUr  my  father's 
death. 

.  We  don't  know  when  your  &ther  died  ? — 
I  believe,  I  explained  to  your  IcwdshipSy  it  was 
about  ten  years. 

How  long  have  you  been  appointed  solicitor 


to  the  Hospital  ?r'Almo8t  immediately  upoA 
my  father's  death,  which  is  about  tea  years 
ago. 

Were  you  an  apprentice  to  any  attorney 
before  vou  was  an  attorney? — ^I  was  clerk  tm 
my  father. 

How  long? — Not  quite  five  years,  but  I 
served  the  remainder  with  Mr.  Sibthorpe. 

I  only  wi^  to  ask  the  witness;  he  says 
that  this  new  charter  was  laid  before  the  At- 
torney and  SoUcitor  General,  I  desire  to  know^ 
whether  they  made  any  alterations  in  it,  after 
it  was  had  before  them?-*— I  believe,  that  the 
almost,  if  not  entirely,  the  only  alteratioo 
made  by  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  General^ 
was  the  clause  directm^  security  to  be  taken. 

Was  the  old  commission  laid  before  the 
Attorney  and  Solicitor  General  at  the  same 
time,  with  the  draught  of  the  new  charter  ? — 
I  don't  know. 

Who*  were  the  Attorney  and  Solicitor  Ge- 
neral at  that  time  ? — The  present  Chancellor 
was  Attorney  General,  and  Mr.  Wedderbunie, 
Solicitor. 

So  you  don't  know  whether  the  Attorney  or 
Solicitor  .General  did  know  there  was  any  va- 
riation made  between  the  new  charier  and 
the  old  commission  ? — ^I  don't  know  that  any 
otherwise,  thui  was  necessaiy  to  constitute  a 
charter;  there  must  be  some  variation,  to  be 
sure. 

[The  witness  was  ordered  to  attend  oa 
Mondav  next,  and  brmg  those  materials  with 
him,  which  he  made  use  of  in  drawing  up  the 
charter.] 

Whether  you  singly  drew  up  the  charter,  or 
whether  Mr.  Sibthorpe  was  concerned  with 
you  in  drawing  it  up? — Mr.  Sibthorpe  and  I, 
to  the  best  of  my  recollection,  drew  it  toge* 
ther. 

He  was  concerned  with  you  in  drawing  of 
it  ? — ^Yes,  he  was. 

I  think  you  say,  Sibthorpe  and  you  together 
drew  it  ? — ^Yes,  I  think  so. 

Under  the  direction  of  Mr.  Eden  ? — ^Yes. 

You  recollect  that  was  the  case,  do  you  ?— 
Yes,  pcrfecUy. 

I  suppose,  after  you  had  drawn  this  diarter, 
you  delivered  it  to  Mr.  Eden  for  his  perusal? 
— ^It  was  laid  before  Mr.  Eden  for  his  p^nuaL 

When  }[ou  laid  it  before  him,  did  not  y«u  ol^ 
serve  to  him,  that  you  had  made  these  essen* 
tial  alterations  ?~ I  cannot  recollect,  whether 
I  or  Mr.  Sibthorpe  laid  it  before  him. 

Did  Mr.  Eden  make  any  alterations?— I 
cannot  recollect. 

Mr.  I(>bet9on  called  in  again. 

Mr.  Ibh.  In  the  hurrv  of  looldng  over  tha 
minutes  at  the  bar,  I  dud  omit  one  which  I 
should  have  taken  notice  of;  I  did  mention  to 
the  House,  that  there  had  been  an  application 
fi!om  the  general  court  to  parliament,  fot  an 
act  of  jparuament  to  mcorporate  tiie  Hospital, 
that  did  not  take  place;  and,  I  find,  upon 
looking  over  the  mimrtes,  sinos  I  withdtew 


'89]        re^eetuig  tie  Rm/al  Ho^dl  ai  Greenmkh.         A.  O.  1778. 


[96 


fiom  the  bar,  that  the  draught  of  the  charter 
had  been  settled  by  the  Attorney  and  Soticitor 
GcaneraJy  with  the  addition  of  the  security 
dnise,  was  laid  before  the  general  court,  and 
that  wu  on  the  10th  of  March,  1774.  The 
directors  in  their  Memorial  to  that  eeneral 
court  say,  thus:  that  having  laid  before  tiie 
Attom^  and  Solicitor  General,  a  draught  of  a 
cfairterofincoiporation  for  the  Hospital,  &c. 
tad  having  addedf  according  to  thev  recom- 
mendation, a  clause  for  the  treasurer  to  give 
lecurity,  the  resolution  of  the  general  court 
was,  that  they  approved  of  the  draught  of  the 
new  charter. 

Who  were  present  at  that  time?— Lord 
Sandwich,  Mr.  Buller,  lord  Palmerston,  lords 
«f  the  Admiralty,  &c.  &c.  in  the  whole  fifteen 
in  number. 

Was  the  charter  read  pan^raph  hy  para- 

Sph  at  the  general  court?— The  draugnt  of 
charter  appears  to  have  heen  read  through ; 
I  recollect  very  weD,  that  the  charter  itself 
WIS  not  read. 

You  say  it  appears,  that  the  draught  was 
leadthioi^i,  h  may  be  entered  as  read,  it 
may  appear  so  upon  the  books;  but  were  you 
ment  at  the  general  court?— I  don't  recol- 
lectthatitwas  not  read;  and  I  am  very  well 
convinced,  in  my  own  mind,  that  the  draught 
wssread,  but  that  the  charter  itself  was  not 
Rsd,  anv  more  than  sometimes  as  your  lord- 
thiM'  bifis  are  read,  just  the  title  of  it 

rlease  to  recollect  an(l  will  you  tsdce  upon 
you  to  say  tlmt  it  was  read?— I  think  I  can 
venture  to  sav  ity  but  I  will  not  say  it  posi- 
tively, but  I  nave  no  reason  to  think  that  it 
was  not  read. 

Do  you  take  upon  you  to  say  positively  that 
it  was  or  was  not?— I  believe  it  was  read,  I 
know  notlung  to  the  contnur. 

Whether  it  was  not  one  of  the  points  of  bu- 
■ness^  upon  which  they  met  to  consider  of 
this  draught? — ^It  was  a  part  of  the  business 
ff  the  day^  it  came  in  amone  other  business. 

Was  this  draught  of  the  charter,  to  the  best 
of  your  knowledge,  read  to  the  general  court  ? 
—To  the  best  m  my  knowledge  and  belief, 
certainly  it  was  read. 

Were  any  of  these  alterations  between  the 
•onunission  and  charter,  pointed  out  to  the 
Ccneml  court  at  t||at  time?— No,  tiiere  was 
lotiuQg  pointed  out  in  it,  that  I  recollect. 

Was  the  commission  produced  at  that  court, 
and  read? — ^No,  it  was  not,  nor  any  compari- 
son niade  between  them. 

Did  no  member  there  take  notice  of  any  al- 
teration between  one  and  the  otiier?— Not 
that  I  recollect;  and  I  cannot  see  how  they 
could,  unless  they  had  had  them  both  before 
them? 

How  soon  did  you  observe,  or  were  you  ac- 
quainted with  the  alterations  in  the  charter? 
—I  never  knew  any  thing  of  the  alterations 
B^aelf  m  the  charter;  I  never  compared  it 
^"^  the  oommisaion;  I  concluded  it  was 
poperly  settled,  having  gone  through  such 
haads;  till  Mr,  Baillie  poiatad  thm  out  in 


his  book,  no  other  alteration  than' the  security 
clause,  that  wras  an  addition  as  it  stands  upon 
the  books,  as  recommended  to  be  inserted. 

[Mr.  Ibbetson  withdrew,  and  the  House  ad- 
journed to  Monday.] 

Mr.  JEkferttty  the  Solicitor,  called  in. 

Have  you-  brou^t  those  papers  that  were 
ordered  ? — ^I  have.    [Produces  some  Papers.] 

What  are  these  papers  ? — The  .  several 
draughts  and  copies  of  charters,  that  I  have 
been  able  to  collect  since  last  Friday. 

That  you  have  been  able  to  collect? — ^Yes. 

When  were  those  draughts  and  papers  made 
out? — The  first  was  drawn  by  myself;  was 
corr|pted,  as  I  find  afterwards,  by  Mr.  Sib- 
thorpe,  who  was  then  joint  solicitor  of  the 
Hospital  with  me ;  a  copy  was  made  fitHoa 
that,  and  laid  before  Mr.  Eden,  and  corrected 
by  him  after  that;  three  comes  were  made^. 
one  for  the  Attorney  GeneraL  one  for  the  So- 
licitor General,  and  another  for  Mr.  Eden. 

Are  those  all  the  papers  that  you  have  pro- 
duced?— I  was  going  on,  if  the  Committee 
will  nve  me  leave :  the  Attorney  auod  Soli- 
citor General  advised,  by  an  opinion  in  vrriting 
at  the  end  of  one  of  them,  that  a  clause  should 
be  added  for  the  treasurer  to  give  security: 
this  was  laid  before  the  board  ofoirectors,  and 
thev  ordered  the  clause  to  be  drawn;  accord- 
ingly a  copy  was  then  made  for  the  board, 
with  the  clause  inserted;  I  find,  by  the  mi- 
nutes  of  the  board,  that  it  was  then  laid  be- 
fore the  board,  and  they  made  alterations  in 
it ;  from  thence  another  copy  was  made  for 
the  general  court,  and  by  them  finally  ap- 
proved. 

Are  these  all  the  papers?— I  have  not  them 
all. 

Are  those  that  you  have  been  describme  all 
the  papers  you  have  brought  with  you? — ^I 
will  r^  their  tities. 

Are  the^.  or  are  they  not,  all  you  have 
brought  with  you  ? — ^I  have  not  brought  all  I 
have  been  describing, because  I  coulonot find 
them  all;  what  I  tuive  brought  is  Ihefint 
draught  which  I  drew  myself,  and  which  was 
corrected  by  Mr.  Sibthorpe ;  that  was  afiber- 
wards  corrected  by  Mr.  Eden,  and  then  the 
third  draught  was  corrected  by  the  Attorney 
and  Solicitor  General,  and  Mr.  Eden. 

Have  you  any  papers  but  what  you  have 
produced?— None,  but  what  I  have  produced. 

Have  you  searched  into  the  record-room, 
and  made  any  enquiry  concerning  these  old 
papers  and  draughts  you  spoke  of  the  other 
day?— I  have  been  into  the  record-room  and 
searched  there ;  I  found  that  the  papers  were 
not  there,  but  in  my  possession,  and  I  have 
now  delivered  them  to  your  lordships. 

Were  there  any  other  alterations  ever  made 
in  the  drati^ht  of  the  charter,  but  those  you 
have  mentioned  ? — ^No. 

Did  you  ever  converse  with  anv  body  else, 
but  those  that  you  have  named,  upon  th*^ 
drawinjg  of  the  charter,  to  [au.  with]  my  lovi 
Sandwich,  or  any  of  the  loroa  of  the  Adnu* 
ral^?^N9.. 


91] 


18  GEORGE  III. 


Tie 


Nor  receive  any  meeiage  upon  the  subject 
faun  any  body  ?— Nqne. 

Was  Mr.  Ibbetson  conceroed  in  diawii^  up 
that  charter  >---Not  by  any  means. 

What  was  the  expence  of  the  charter? — ^I 
have  not  tak^oi  that  out. 

Do  you  know  how  much  you  have  received 

Xn  that  account  ?-— Upon  account  of  the 
rter? 

Upon  account  of  the  expence  of  passing  it? 
— ^I  am  not  prepared  at  present  to  answer  that 
question,  but  I  believe  it  was  upwards  of  a 
Uiousand  pounds :  if  the  House  have  any  Wish 
to  go  into  thaty  I  wiU,  upon  another  day,  pro* 
duce  idl  the  papers  I  can  respecting  thaW 

When  did  you  propose  to  return  those  pa- 
pers that  belongea  U>  the  record-room  ?— I  iiad 
not  fixed  any  tune  in  my  own  mind  about  it; 
I  reatty  thou^t  they  were  returned;  it  haa 
been  a  long  tune  since  I  have  seen  any  thing 
of  them. 

Have  you  compared  any  of  those  old  papers 
•ince  vou  were  nere  on  Friday  with  the  pre- 
sent chaiter,  to  see  whether  USe  alterations  in 
this  new  chsurter  are  contained  in  these  old 
papers  ?'^Some  of  them  are  in  the  old  drau^t 
of  a  charter  in  George  the  find's  time,  which 
I  have  delivered  to  your  lordships. 

Is  that  part  contained  in  that  old  p«per, 
which  gives  authority  to  the  lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty to  sell  the  Hospital  laud?— I  don't 
know. 

That  charter  never  passed,  did  it  ?— No. 
[Mr.  Everest  withdrew.] 

The  Auditor,  Mr.  Erf«n,*  called  in. 

Pkase  to  sive  the  Committee  an  account 
of  what  you  Know  relative  to  the  passing  the 
new  chaurter  of  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — ^In  the 
beginntng  of  the  year  1779.  Mr.  Ellis,  the 
steward  of  liie  Hospital,  fiuka  for  a  consider- 
able sum  of  money,  I  beUeve  about  3,500/. ; 
I  was  at  that  time  at  tlie  bar,  and  acted  as 
ooimMl  for  the  Hospital;  it  was  my  duty  to 
settle  Uie  form  of  xeeovering  this  money;  I 
ibund.  on  lookii^  into  the  matter,  that  it  was 
venr  difficult  to  <&reet  a  mode  of  prosecutian ; 
wnil  also  Ibond,  that  if  any  such  mode  could 
be  canied  on,  there  were  no  means  of  recover- 
ing, in  case  Mr.  Ellis's  ciroumstaiices  should 
be  R>uud  insolvent ;  for  tiiere  had  been  no 
ascivity  gt«en  bv  him,  or  indeed  anv  other 
person^  entrusted  vnth  the  money  of  the  Hos- 
pital: it  was  my  duty  to  rej^sent  this  to  the 
mid  of  directors:  andlpomtedoutto  them, 
tiiat  they  were  cbrected  under  the  commis- 
aioDy  under  which  we  acted,  to  have  a  char- 
ter. I  knew  that  under  that  charter  it  would 
be  easy  to  8;uard  wunst  any  such  iiiconve- 
aienoe  in  mture.  The  board  upon  this  di- 
tectedthait  the  matter  should  be  considei«d,  I 
believe,  by  myself,  and  the  then  Attorney  and 
Mkitor  Goieral.  It  was  our  first  wish  of 
ally  I  believe,  to  have  had  this  charter  pasaed 
in  parliament.    It  was  moved  in  parliament, 

*  Now  [a.  d.  1914.]  Lord  AncklMMl. 


Cm  qfCapiain  Thmoi  BmlUei         [98 

but  the  answer  was,  you  had  better  go  to  the 
usual  fonn  for  it  throu§di  the  crown  offloets; ' 
we  don't  wish  it  agitated  here.  Thebusmess 
of  the  charter  then  went  on,  and  several  meet- 
ings were  bad  about  it;  I  believe  about  tfaas 
time,  till  in  the  m<mth  of  March,  1779,  that  I 
then  ^ve  mstructions  to  the  solicitors  of  ^ 
HospKal.  Mr.  Sibthorpe  and  Mr.  Eveicst; 
Mr.  Sibthorpe,  very  enunent  in  hie  jnrofesskm 
there,  and  a  man  we  had  Mk  oonndencein; 
Mr.  Everest  was  then  a  very  youns  man;  I 
directed  them  to  prepare  a  diraui^  for  us  to 
look  at  They  prepared  a  draught  upon  the 
ground  of  the  Foundling  Hospital's  charter 
and  the  commission,  takmg  out  as  much  of 
the  commission  as  they  thoueht  applied  §ar 
the  benefit  of  the  Hospital ;  wnen  it  came  to 
be  put  into  the  charter,  I  did  not  know  who 
prepaxedit,but  I  now  understand  Mr.  Everest 
did;  Mr.  Sibthorpe  corrected  it,  and broi^t 
It  so  corrected  to  me.  This  don't  eannr  ne.  I 
believe,  later  down  than  the  month  of  lAurch ; 
I  made  some  corrections,  which  I  understand 
are  now  before  the  House,  and  which  m^  be 
seen;  in  making  those  oorrecUens,  I  shotdd 
not  have  thoueht  it  necessary  to  have  retabied 
a  single  syllable  of  the  commisskm,  if  I  could 
have  suggested  better  words;  I  befieve,  bows- 
ever,  it  so  haopened,  that  in  general  the  ex«^ 
pressionsof  the  old  commission  are  retained^ 
as  far  as  they  were  proper  to  be  retamed. 
There  were  several  ottier  things  occurred  in 
settling  that  charter,  which  seined  material 
to  be  attended  to  f<Mr  the  benefit  of  the  Hoe. 
pital.  Hitherto  we  had  a  consideniUe  eslel 
blishment  for  the  benefit  of  the  boys  who 
were  sons  of  seamen.  That  estaUisfanieat 
had  not  been  regularly  put  under  the  esta- 
blishment of  the  Rospital ;  it  arose  fioin,  and 
was  supported  by,  some  contingent  aunia. 
The  boys  eo  off  in  three  years  toktaUy  com- 
pleted m  their  education.  This  was  grows 
so  considerable  an  establishment,  tSat  ¥t 
seemed  material  to  subject  that  to  a  eeneml 
court,  and  the  general  form  that  gees  tmongh 
the  rest  of  the  regular  bumness  tlwt  is  inserted 
in  the  charter,  not  in  the  former  coramisuon  ; 
so  all  the  security  clauses  of  theee  Uiat  have 
the  Hospital  money  pass  throu|^  theii  hands^ 
were  submitted  for  the  opinion  of  Iht  Att8». 
ney  and  Sohcitor  General,  and  th^  gave 
their  opinion  that  it  was  necessary  to  insect 
such  a  clause :  that  is  a  considerable  benefit 
to  the  Hospitid,  as  at  all  times  there  is  at  leaKt 
60,000/.  or  60,000/.  in  cirodation^  fot  whick 
the  Hospital  before  had  no  secunjhr^  and  for 
which  it  has  now  a  full  security.  'Uiere  were 
some  provisions  put  into  the  charter  about 
the  ^wer  of  altering  and  disposing  of  the 
Hospital's  lands,  which  I  hear  has  drvwn 
some  attrition.  As  far  as  I  can  lecoUeCt  of 
the  matter,  I  apprehend  that  no  such  {lower  of 
alienii^  or  di^osing  of  any  thing  is  liven  bgr 
these  words :  I  conceive  thea  to  be  »cie 
words  of  fonn,  so  fiur  as  relates  to  any  pOBa»* 
bility  of  impairing  the  proper^  of  the  HoapW. 
tal :  I  conceive  that  evory  purchaeer  talRO^ 


fJJ        festpeeling  ike  Royal  Hospitai  at  Greentokh.  A.  D.  I77d. 


[M 


micttothattiust,  and  at  his  own  peril;  so 

fum  tlKMe  wofds  five  a  power  of  purchasmg, 

I  don't  knowy  I  rather  apprehend  tney  do  not ; 

Ar  ia  cises  subsequent,  I  understand  it  has 

ben  ibmd  necessaiy  to  have  special  licences 

fivathe  cfQwn  to  nmke  those  purchases ;  and 

ii  MffiA  to  exchaogesy  it  happened  two  years 

i^  when  there  was  an  excnange,  and  then 

it  VIS  (bund  neoessaiy  to  pass  an  act  for  that 

fopfOBty  which  act  actually  passed. 

I  have  not  looked  into  the  thinsy  because 
tha  House  did  not  give  me  notice  Sat  I  was 
Mke summoned  here ;  I  heard  it  by  accident; 
I  hivt  not  had  much  time  to  look  into  it ; 
bn^  I  believe,  that  upon  looking  into  the  acts^ 
which  vest  tne  Derwentwater  estates  in  the 
Hospital,  it  will  be  found,  that  no  charter  of 
tike  Idn^s  alone  can  turn  and  affect  that,  ex- 
duave  of  the  nature  of  the  trust,  by  which 
ittT  purchaser  might  be  subject  to  the  trust ; 
1 00  not  at  this  moment  recollect  any  other 
iviatioBs  in  the  charter.  There  is  an  omis- 
m,  wluch  has  been  taken  notice  of:  the  ge- 
lanl  courts  recommending  the  persons  proper 
to  be  admitted;  the  words  that  were  m  the 
«ld  commission  were,  I  believe,  pretty  nearly 
Aese,  that  the  commissioners,  meaning  the 
^neiai  court,  shall  recommend  to  the  board 
sf  Admiiai^,  to  appoint  officers  necessary  for 
the  Hospital.  Now  I  can  only  suppose  what 
I  did  then  think ;  by  what  I  think  now  upon 
i^  it  can  only  faAve  one  of  two  meanings, 
Mher  that  I  must  have  thought  at  that  time, 
Ihstthe  coramiseioners  were  meant  to  recom- 
Mid  the  persons,  so  that  they  must  be  ap- 
pointed; in  which  case  I  diould  have  had  no 
nesitation  of  striking  it  out,  because  I  am 
deniy  (^opinion,  it  is  a  much  better  trust  to 
hi  in  the  bands  of  the  board  of  Admirahy, 
who  must  know  the  merits  of  seamen  who 
hive  served,  than  in  the  hands  of  persons 
veiT  ntopectaUe  in  life,  but  not  seamen.  I 
iDderstand  thia  is  an  old  clause,  from  the  first 
ustitution  of  tlie  Hospital ;  and  I  conceive 
that  the  words  meant,  that  the  commissioners 
ahoiild  recommend  all  officers  necessary  to  be 
adpointed ;  so  many  captains,  so  many  lieu- 
tepants^and  so  on ;  but  that  the  board  of  Ad- 
■iralty  are  to  name  the  particular  captains 
Md  fieolenants.  There  is  a  clause  too,  giving 
the  Admiralty  power  to  displace.  Now,  as 
6r  as  that  addition  eoes,  I  believe,  it  restrains 
the  power  of  the  Aamiralty:  the  Admiralty 
>Ka  to  appoint,  and  do  now,  indeed,  till  fur- 
ther order:  what  I  must  have  Hiought  was 
Ibis^thal  this  is  rather  a  hard  tenure  upon  an 
old  officer  in  the  Hospital,  that  he  should 
hold  it  during  the  win  of  the  board  of  Admi- 
^^,  whatever  his  behaviour  was ;  therefore, 
Imssrted,  I  think,  they  should  have  powerto 
displace  for  nusbehaviour.  There  were  some 
m9  words,  that  the  reveAue  of  the  Hospital 
mdd  be  applied  to  the  purposes  of  the  cha* 
ntr,  and  no  other  purposes  whatever ;  I  don't 
Rcoflect  (it  wdl  appear)  whether  I  scratched 
J*^e  words;  if  I  did,  I  am  not  ashamed  of 
Py  mate  th^  are  wpids  that  mean  nothing; 


and,  at  this  instant,  if  applied  to  any  purposes^ 
except  the  purposes  of  the  cbaritv,  they  are 
punishable.  I  don't  know  whether  I  hav« 
answered  the  noble  lord's  question,  but  I 
don*t  recollect  any  thing  more  at.preseot 

Whether  the  conunittee  is  to  understand 
from  what  you  have  said,  that  these  seven] 
alterations  in  the  charter  were  made  by  yeuf^ 
self? — ^Upon  my  word  t^t  is  a  very  hani 
question  to  answer;  I  have  not  seen  the 
paper,  except  casting  my  eyes  upon  them  ii| 
the  bundle ;  I  have  not  seen  them  to  examine 
them,  therefore  I  cannot  tell ;  at  the  distance 
of  seven  y  ears^  it  is  impossible  for  me  to  know* 
If  any  body  will  take  the  trouble  to  examine 
them,  my  hand-writing  is  very  easy  to  be 
seen,  whether  I  alteredthem or  no;  1  appre* 
hend  I  am  responable  for  every  word  that  is 
in  this  charter. 

I  don't  mean  whether  you  are  answerable 
for  it  or  not;  but  I  want  to  know  the  fact, 
whether  you  made  the  alterations  pr  not :  if 
you  wish  to  satisfy  yourself  bv  lof4dng  mto 
the  draught  that  is  laid  before  the  House,  that 
may  easDy  be  handed  up  to  you,  to  refresh 
your  memory } — If  you  will  please  to  let  me 
see  the  draught,  I  will  tell  your  lordships. 

(The  draught  is  handed  to  Mr.  Eden.) 

Mr.  Eden.  I  certainly  did  not*>dter  ererj 
thins,  because  I  see  in  the  Attorney  General's 
brief,  there  are  some  passages  that  are  altered. 

Please  to  look  at  the  altemtions,  one  by  one, 
and  acquaint  the  committee  of  what  yon  have 
altered) — In  my  brie^  there  does  not  happeii 
to  be  one  aheration,  which  I  am  surprbea  at : 
but,  I  believe,  the  reason  was,  I  had  quit^ 
the  bar  before  it  was  brought  lo  me. 

Then,  firom  thence,  are  we  to  tflrierstand, 
that  none  of  the  alterations  were  nukde  by 
you? — ^I  am  afVaid  to  say  that,  beeauQe  the 
solicitor's  having  free  access  to  me,  many 
things  that  may  appear  to  be  altered,  might 
be  by  their  asking,  and  my  suggesting  altera- 
tions :  I  should  mention,  that  Uiere  appears 
to  be  a  great  delay  in  tnis  biisiness;  it  was 
slatad  in  the  beginning  of  the  year  17712,  and 
was  not  completed  tiH  the  end  of  the  year 
1775 ;  in  the  course  of  thattime  it  was  revised 
very  repeatedly  by  different  persons;  and 
was,  I  believe,  a  lone  time  before  the  Attorney 
and  Solicitor  Generu ;  th^  had  too.  much  bu» 
siness  to  give  it  out  of  their  hands^  but  at  last 
it  did  come,  though  I  have  sent  for  their  re- 
port upon  it ;  it  was  broughtito  me  from  th^ 
secretary  of  slate's  office,  and  I  have  it  here| 
if  the  House  wish  to  see  it. 

(It  is  handed  up  to  the  table.) 

There  were  some  other  persons  consulted 
in  this  charter.  I  believe;  who  were  these 
persons?  I  understood  you  to  say,  it  was  laid 
More  the  Attorney  and  ^icitor  G^eneral, 
and  soine  other  persons?— I  am  misunder- 
stood, I  am  afraid ;  I  don't  recollect  any  othet  ^ 
persons,  except  Mr.  Sibthorpe,  the  solicitor  of' 
the  Hospital;  I  did  not  mean  te  say  m^. 


Ill] 


IS  GEORGE  IIL         The  Case  of  CapkAn  Tkmiu  BaiiUe,         [1  IS 


Whom  did  Mr.  Tindall  succeed  ? — Mr.  Po- 
codc,  who  had  been  at  sea. 

Whom  did  Mr  Pocock  succeed? — Mr. 
Beny,  who  succeeded  Mr.  Stubbs. 

Had  Mr.  Stubbs  been  at  sea  P^Never,  I  be- 
lieve ;  his  son  is  here,  who  can  speak  to  that. 

Mr.  Stubbs  was  the  fi^t  chapuun  that  was 
ever  appointed? — ^Yes^  the  first  that  appears 
by  the  Hospital  books. 

Who  is  the  next  upon  the  list?— The  au- 
ditors. 

Who  is  the  present  auditor  ? — ^Mr.  Eden. 

Was  he  ever  at  sea? — Not  that  I  ever 
heard. 

Whom  did  Mr.  Eden  succeed  ? — Mr.  Thur- 
low. 

Was  he  ever  at  sea? — ^Not  that  I  ever 
heard^ 

Whom  did  he  succeed  ? — ^Mr.  Hussey. 

Had  he  ever  been  at  sea  ? — ^Not  that  I  ever 
heard. 

Whom  did  he  succeed  ? — Mr.  Jarvis. 

Was  he  ever  at  sea  ? — ^Never  a  one  of  them 
M I  ever  heard. 

What  is  the  business  of  the  auditor  ? — ^After 
the  accounts  pass  through  the  clerk  of  the 
eheque'is  inspection,  they  are  delivered  to  the 
board  of  directors,  from  whence  they  are  de- 
livered over  to  the  auditor,  and  by  him  .au- 
dited ;  and  all  such  accounts  as  are  readv  are 
dedared  twice  a  year  before  the  chancellor  of 
the  exchequer. 

Are  you  acquainted  witfithe  nature  of  au- 
diting them  ? — Yes,  I  have  seen  many  of  them 
audited. 

Is  there  any  thing  in  passing  of  these  ac- 
counts^ that  could  not  be  done  by  a  purser  ? — 
Hiere  is  no  great  difficulty  in  it. 

Do  you  thmk  that  there  is  any  thing  in  that, 
•  that  an  ingenious  clever  man,  who  has  been  a 

Surser  to  a  man  of  war,  might  not  be  able  to 
o  ? — ^No,  I  think  not. 

Who  ia  next  upon  the  list  ? — ^The  governor's 
clerk. 

What  is  his  name  ? — The  present  governor's 
clerk  is  not  the  person  set  down  here ;  he  has 
not  lodged  in  the  Hospital ;  at  present,  the 
only  person  here  is  William  Pagett,  who  was 
•ecretaiy  to  sir  George  Rodney,  m  the  West- 
Indies. 

Has  the  present  governor's  clerk  been  at 
tea  ? — I  believe  not. 

What  is  his  name  ? — ^Pansfbrd. 

He  is  clerk  of  the  council  ? — That  is  by  vir- 
tue of  his  being  the  governor's  secretary. 

You  think  he  has  not  been  at  sea  ? — ^No,  I 
have  heard  he  has  been  an  officer  of  horse. 

What  has  been  his  particular  duty? — ^I 
apprehend  the  particular  duty  of  the  secretary 
to  the  governor,  is  to  cany  all  correspondence 
that  he  may  have  with  the  Admiralt)r,  and  to 
attend  at  the  councils,  of  the  Hospital,  and 
that  has  been  for  many  years  seldom  or  ever 
acted  by  the  principal,  it  always  has  been  by 
deputation. 

Then  Mr.  Pansford  has  aot  attended  at  the 
S^Uidl  l»^l  believe  not, 


Did  you  ever  see  him  there  ? — ^Never. 

And  how  nuiny  years  have  you  been  in  the 
Hospital  attending  the  council  ? — I  don't  at- 
tend the  council. 

How  many  years  have  you  been  in  the 
Hospital  ? — From  my  childhood. 

Did  you  ever  s^e  him  in  the  Hospital  ? — 
Yes,  at  sir  Charles  Hardy's  house,  and  have 
dined  with  him  there,  but  have  not  seen  him 
upon  duty. 

What  IS  your  rule  in  i[^rd  to  checking 
people  that  are  absent  ? — Tne  men  are  mus- 
tered every  day,  and  checked  all  those  out  of 
their  provisions  tiiat  are  not  present. 

By  whom  Is  the  governor's  clerk  appointed? 
— ^By  the  governor. 

Does  there  appear  to  you  to  be  any  thing  in 
the  duty  of  clerk  of  the  council,  that  could  not 
be  done  by  a  person  having  been  at  sea  ? — The 
duty  is  very  easy ;  it  is  nothing  more  than  the 
little  dirty  complaints  of  the  men  getting 
drunk,  and  all  that  is  his  principal  busmess. 

Who  is  the  next  ? — The  secretary's  clerk. 

Who  is  he  ? — The  present  one  is  *Mr.  Francis 
Cook. 

Is  he  a  landman,  or  has  he  been  at  sea  ?  or 
is  he  in  the  Hospitstl  ? — ^A  landman,  and  in  the 
Hospital. 

Whom  did  he  succeed? — ^Mr.  Eichanl 
Home. 

What  was  he  ?  and  was  he  lodged  in  the 
Hospital  ? — Mr.  Home  had  never  been  at  sea^ 
so  far  as  Z  could  leam,  nor  lodged  in  the  Hos- 
pital. 

Had  you  any  other  before  him  that  had 
been  at  sea  ? — ^Not  that  I  could  ever  leam. 

Who  are  the  next  ? — ^The  dispensers,  there 
have  been  only  two  of  them,  the  present  one 
has  never  been  at  sea.  :, 

Wliat  is  his  name  ? — John  Pocock. 

What  is  his  employment? — ^Heisthe  di»- 
penser  of  medicines,  the  immediate  instrument 
under  the  physician,  who  prepares  and  com- 
pdunds  all  the  medicines. 

Is  there  any  thing  in  his  business,  that 
might  not  be  done  by  a  surgeon  in  the  navy  } 
— f  apprehend  not. 

Who  is  the  next  person? — The  brewers, 
Stephen  Coleman  Hickman  is  the  present 

Was  he  ever  at  sea? — No,  nor  any  of  his 
predecessors.  , 

What  is  Mr.  Hickman  ? — So  far  as  I  know 
of  him,  he  was  an  officer  in  the  army ;  he  had 
a  fortune  of  his  own ;  he  quitted  the  army, 
and  married  a  young  lady  at  Greenwich;  he 
went  into  the  brewing  busmess ;  he  continued 
that  six  or  seven  years,  and  failed  twice. 

And  then  he  was  appointed  brewer  to 
Greenwich  Hospital? — ^After  some  time. 

As  far  as  you  know  of  that  business,  do  vo« 
think  that  a  man-  that  had  been  at  sea,  and  had 
not  failed,  might  not  have  been  as  good  a 
brewer  as  Mr.  Hickman? — ^I  cannot  be  a  jud^ 
of  that. 

Do  you  know  any  thing  to  the  contraiy  ?— - 
No. 

I8beagooclbr6wer?-^W9  have  sever  ba^ 


UJ]      mpec&tg  ike  Rcfioi  Ho^fital  at  Greewmeh.        A.  D.  1778. 


[114 


oneoamplunt  as  I  know  of,  since  he  has  been 

btver  to  the  Hospital. 
How  long  has  he   been  brewer  to  the 

Hosfihal?— Be   was  appointed   in  August, 

1777. 
How  long  is  it  aso  that  he  failed  ? — ^A  year 

er  tiro  before  thai,  I  believe. 
Please  to  go  on  to  the  next } — ^The  next  are 

tbe  mations;    the  present  ones  are  Sarah 
Smith,  Mary  Krt,  and  Eleanor  Power. 

Are  either  of  them  the  wives  or  widows  of 
seunen?— Sarah  Smith  is  the  widow  of  a  late 
captain  in  the  Hospital;  the  other  two  are 
said  to  be  unmarried. 

Are  they  daughters  of  persons  that  have 
been  at  sea  ? — One  of  them,  I  heard,  was  sister 
to  a  lieutenant,  that  lord  Hawke  made  some 
tone  ago;  he  was  drowned,  and  left  his  &- 
milj  in  great  distress.  Lord  Hawke  put  her 
in  as  a  matron. 

Had  she  any  employment  in  lord  Hawke's 
family,  before  she  was  sent  to  Greenwich 
Hospitd  ? — Not  that  I  know  of. 

Had  any  of  those  matrons  any  employment 
in  my  lord  Sandwich's  family  ? — Lord  .Sand- 
vich  was  not  at  the  board  of  Admiralty  when 
aoy  of  those  matrons  were  appoiiited. 

Who  was  at  the  head  or  the  Admiralty 
liben  they  were  appointed  ? — Mrs.  Power  was 
put  in,  I  have  heara,  by  lord  Egmont;  the 
other  two  by  lord  Hawke. 

Do  you  find  any  before  them  that  have 
been  widows  or  wives  of  sailors? — Mary 
Chamberlain,  who  was  before  Mrs.  Poorer, 
sras  a  captain's  mdow;  £llls  Gregoxy  was  a 
captain's  widow ;  Elizabeth  Smith  was  a  lieu- 
tenant's widow ;  the  three  first,  I  cannot  learn 
vfaat  they  were. 

As  &r  as  you  have  been  able  to  learn  any 
tlung  about  them,  they  have  always,  till  now, 
been  widows  of  seamen? — ^Yes,  widows  of 


I  would  ask,  whether  you  think  the  beine 
miithig  women ;  we  will  say  to  either  lora 
Anson's  or  lord  Hawke's  lady,  or  the  lady  of 
any  others,  that  have  been  at  the  head  of  the 
Admiralty,  entitles  them  to  be  {mt  into  the 
Hospital  as  matrons  or  nurses,  or  in  any  capa^ 
city  m  the  Hospital  ? — Certainly  not. 

Go  on  to  the  next  ?-— They  are  the  butlers ; 
the  present  one  is  William  Saward,  who  has 
been  at  sea. 

When  was  he  appointed? — ^On  the ^5th  of 
r^mofy,  1772. 

Had  he  been  at  sea  before  his  appointment, 
<v  afterwards? — Before  his  appomtment,  he 
vas  clerk  of  one  of  the  yachts,  and  had  been 
maonr  voyages,  I  believe. 

The  next?— The  next  is  John  Izard;  he 
bad  not  been-  at  sea,  as  I  could  learn. 

Who  was  at  the  head  of  the  Admiralty 

when  the  last  butler  was  appointed? — Lord 

Sandwich.    The  next  are  the  butler's  mates ; 

«c  present  ones  are,  James  Skeene  and  Philip 
lewis. 

Have  they  been  at  sea?->Skeene  has  never 
«en  at  sea;  JLcwis,  I  have  Icanied*  within 
VOL  XXI.  - 


this  day  or  two,  was  going  with  sir  Charles 
Wager,  as  his  stewsuxl,  but  never  went  out  of 
the  Channel ;  I  received  that  information  since 
the  list  was  delivered  in. 

Do  you  know  anything  relative  to  their 
predecessors  ? — No,  there  are  four  of  them ;  I 
nave  marked  them,  such  as  I  have  been  able 
to  coUect,  that  the  butler's  mates  have  all 
been  at  sea ;  the  two  before  that,  John  Watts 
and  John  Qieese,  I  can  learn  nothing,  con- 
cerning them. 

Who  was  at  the  head  of  the  Admiralty 
when  the  two  stewards  and  the  two  last  chap- 
lains were  appointed  ?— Lord  Sandwich. 

Who  appomts  Uie  butler's  mates? --They 
are  appointed  by  warrant  from  the  Admiralty. 

£.  of  Sandwich.  Don't  you  mistake?  the 
butler's  mates  are  not  appointed  by  war- 
rant firom  the  Admiralty.  — A,  Yes,  they  are. 

Who  are  the  next  ? — ^The  cooks. 

Who  is  your  present  cook  ?  —There  are 
three,  Alexander  Moore,  James  Wartell,  and 
Samuel  Troke,  now  Wartell  is  dead. 

What  is  Troke?— He  was  at  sea  with  my 
lord  Anson ;  Moore  luis  not  been  at  sea  that 
I  can  leafn. 

Who  were  their  predecessors? — Henry 
White  had  been  at  sea ;  Thomas  Cale,  Thomas 
Bird,  and  William  Wilson ;  the  three  prior  to 
them,  I  cannot  learn  tiiat  they  had  ever  been 
at  sea. 

But  from  your  not  being  able  to  learn,  you 
don't  concluue  whether  they  have  or  not  ? — I 
have  made  the  best  enquiry  that  I  could 
amongst  the  old  persons  in  the  Hospital. 

But  those  that  you  have  not  been  able  to 
learn  any  thing  oi\  you  don't  from  thence 
conclude  they  have  been  at  sea  or  not? — No; 
the  next  are  the  cook's  mates. 

Who  are  they  ? — The  last  that  stands  upon 
the  list  is  Roser  Hunt,  who  has  not  been  at 
sea;  John  IV&thews  has  been  at  sea;  James 
ArundeU  has  not  been  at  sea;  Moses  Joice 
has  not  been  at  sea. 

Who  were  their  predecessors? — ^There  are 
seven  or  eight;  some  of  them  have  been  at 
sea,  and  some  have  not  been  at  sea.  The 
next  are  the  scuUerymen ;  the  present  one  is 
Nicholas  Levitt;  he  has  not  been  at  sea. 

Who  were  his  predecessors  ? — Randolph 
Norris,  Edward  Griffith,  John  Bardin,  Thomas 
Cole,  William  Steel,  and  Francis  Steward; 
none  of  them,  as  I  can  learn,  have  ever  been 
at  sea. 

What  is  their  employment? — ^The  scouring 
the  pewter  pots  and  dishes  of  the  pensioners. 

Tnere  is  nothing  in  that,  but  what  a  man 
that  has  been  to  sea  might  do ;  is  there  ? — 
No,  the  next  are  the  scullerymen's  mates; 
they  are  assistants  to  the  others ;  the  present 
ones  are  WiUiam  Gardner,  Robert  Russell ; 
neither  of  them  have  been  at  sea ;  preceding 
them,  there  were  three  others  that  had  not 
been  at  sea ;  then  Arthur  Knight  and  Jacob 
Stranger  have  been  at  sea ;  those  before  them 
are  William  Silkworth  and  William  Stalbert, 
who  have  not  been  at  sea^ 

I 


115] 


18  GEORGE  III.         Tke  Case  nfCapiain  fh&mai  iSditU&,        [i  1$ 


"Who  are  the  next? — ^The  porters  of  the 
Hospital ;  the  present  one  is  James  Lane ;  he 
has  nerer  be^  at  sea;  John  Willeyis  his 
predecessor ;  there  are  five  of  them  never  been 
at  sea. 

What  is  the  bimncss  of  the  porter? — ^Hc 
has  a  lodge  at  one'  of  the  gates  of  the  Hos- 
pital. 

Is  his  business  such  that  cannot  be  done 
by  a  seaman? — Certainly  not;  the  barbers  are 
the  next. 

Have  any  of  them  been  at  sea?— The  pre- 
sent one  is  James  Mackeness,  he  had  been  at 
flea;  he  was,  as  I  understood^  valet  de  cham- 
bre  to  my  lord  Anson. 

Have  any  of  the  rest  of  the  barbers  been  at 
«ca  ? — ^None  of  them. 

Is  this  Mackeness  a  barber? — Yes. 

Is  that  a  place  of  any  profit? — ^A  very  con- 
siderable one. 

To  the  best  of  your  knowledge,  does  he  at- 
tend ? — ^Never. 

It  is  a  sinecure;  is  it? — Yes. 

The  barber  employs  others ;  he  acts  by  de- 
puty, does  he  not  r--Ves. 

How  many  deputies  does  he  emplov? — 
Onlv  one  principal  man;  but  he  has  a  nun- 
dred  other  shavers  under  him. 

What  profit  may  he  have  for  doing  nothing 
at  all^— I  don't  know;  I  should  suppose  that 
he  has  about  ISO/,  or  130/.  a  year  clear. 

Was  not  his  employment  of  more  value  for- 
merly?— ^I  have  understood  some  years  ago, 
from  some  complunts  of  the  pensioners  not 
being  duly  shaved,  that  his  depu^  was  paid 
something  more  in  addition  to  his  mi^. 

How  much  salary  has  he  from  the  nosintal  ? 
-•-Twelve^pounds  a  year. 

What  does  his  profit  arise  from? — ^Hehas 
so  much :  a  halfpenny  a  ^meek  for  all  the  men, 
and  a  penny  for  the  boys. 

Who  are  the  next?— The  messengers. 

Who  are  they? — ^The  present  one  is  Wil- 
liam Herbert,  he  was  at  sea  with  lord  Hawke. 
The  next  are  treasurers  clerks,  the  present 
one  is  Edward  Boxley,  he  has  been  at  sea. 
The  next  is  ^e  clerk  of  the  works. 

Who  b  he?— The  present  one  is  Robert 
Mylne. 

Has  he  been  at  sea? — ^Not  that  I  know  of. 

What  is  his  particular  business? — ^Tocany 
en  all  such  works  and  repairs  as  he  may  be 
directed  to  do,  from  the  board  of  directors  of 
the  Hospital. 

Who  was  his  predecessor  ?-;-William  Ro- 
binson. 

What  is  he? — An  architect. 

Was  he  ever  at  sea? — ^No. 

Is  this  clerk  of  the  works  a  permanent 
officer,  or  only  a  temporary  one? — Formerly, 
the  clerk  of  the  works  was  only  paid  59,  a  day, 
while  new  works  were  canying  on^  but  now 
there  are  works  always  going  on,  his  place  is 
looked  upon  to  be  permanent 

What  IS  the  next  article  ? — The  dispenser's 
assistant :  the  present  one  b  William  Wheat- 
ley,he  has  never N^en  at  sea. 


Is  there  but  ona  assistant?— Only  one. 

Have  his  predecessors  ever  been  at  sea  ?-^  *" 
Never  aooe  ofthem^  to  the  amount  of  nine. 
The  next  article  is  snrgeon's  assistants,  tha 

S resent  vee  Thomas  Carnarvon,  and  David 
tacy  Story;  neither  of  them  have  been  at 
sea.  William  Wallace,  and  Francis  Thomas, 
their  predecessors,  both  had  been  at  sea.  Th6 
next  article  b  the  tumeock  of  the  Hospital^ 
Robert  Dickey,  he  has  never  been  at  sea;  there 
are  but  two  before  him;  they  bad  neither 
been  at  sea. 

What  is  the  next  article?— The  whale  list 
b  sone  through. 

Is  there  not  a  schodmasler  ? — Yes ;  there  is. 

Is  Mr.  Furbor  the  schoolmaster  ?-~Yes. 

Was  he  ever  at  sea?— Not  to  my  know- 
ledge ;  there  are  some  gentlemen  that  say  he 
has  been  at  sea. 

Do  you  know  ahy  body  that  can  speak  ta 
that  point  better  than  you? — ^Mr.  Taylor,  the 
surgeon  of  the  Hospital,  says  he  has  been  al 
sea. 

The  steward's  clerit,  Mr.  Daniri  Ball  ?— He 
is  lodgdl  in  the  house. 

Has  he  been  at  sea?— He  does  not  stilfc 
himself  in  that  hght,  he  has  been  at  sea  a  few 
montiis,  but  does  not  call  himself  a  seafaring 
man. 

What  do  yon  mean  by  seafaring  man  ? — I 
understand  a  man  that  has  been  borne  on 
board  a  ship's  books,  and  has  actually  been 
at  sea. 

So  you  think  this  one  has  actually  been  at 
sea? — ^Hehas. 

He  hasmade  a  voyage  ?— I  cannot  si^  that : 
I  have  heard  him  say  he  h^s  been  at  sea,  aiM 
borne  on  a  ship's  books. 

Do  you  iqpprehend  that  this  person  has 
been  a  voyage,  and  comes  under  tne  descrip- 
tion of  beins  any  ways  qualified  to  partake  of 
thb  charity? — ^He  b  in  the  House,  and  caa 
best  answer  for  himself. 

To  the  best  of  your  knowledge,  do  you  know 
of  any  new  offices  that  have  been  lately  intro» 
duced  into  the  Hosfntal,  that  were  not  known 
before:  that  there  was  no  foundation  fbc ia 
any  ola  charter,  or  even  in  the  new  charter, 
that  there  b  any  provision  fbrN— I  don't  at 
present  recollect  any. 

If  I  was  to  a^  you  a  question,  woidd  yon 
be  able  then  to  answer?  Do  you  recollect  a 
music-master  in  the  Hospital,  to  instruct  the 
boys  in  sinnng? — ^I  know  that  the  present 
organist  haa  an  addition  to  hb  salaiy,  for 
e»:hing  the  boys  to  sing;  I  don't  know  of 
any  new  office. 

What  was  the  additbn?—TwBOIy  pounds  a 


Was  that  addition  made  by  the 
or  general  court?— -It  was  recommended  bj 
the  gener^  court. 

Was  there  any  directk>n  ^ven  to  that  ge* 
neral  court,  to  the  best  of  your  knowledge,  to 
name  that  person  ?— I  don't  know  of  any. 

And  you  never  heard  ?-^No. 

[Mr.  Maide  withdrew.] 


llf}        retpeOiHg  iSesfhj/d  Ho0fiid  i^  Gminn^         A.  D.  1778. 


[118 


Mr.  AhiMs  called  m; 

W»  jowfiuber  the  fii9tGha|^aiQ«f  Greeo- 
wkh  Hosptel  ?-— Yes. 

Had  he  erer  been  at  sea? — No ;  he  wasid- 
wwf%  barae  imoa  a  shu>  in  oWbnaiy;  he  was 
mimster  of  Woolinch  fio^iital  when  be  was 


'  You  say  be  was  borne  upon  «  ahq^  in  ordi- 
aaiy,  so  are  the  preasnt  chaplains ;  you  un- 
dentood  tfa»t  he  was  chaplain  to  the  oidinaiy 
at  Woohrich?— Yes. 

Kotbomeuponasl^p  in  indipaiyF— Yes; 
bis  servant  used  to  be  mustered. 

Are  not  the  present  chaplains  home  oo 
board  a  ahip  in  oidinary  ? — ^I  cannot  teU  that. 

[Mr.  Slubbs  withdrew.] 

Xr»  JntUc  caned  m  again. 

Dojflwvaderatand  Jmiw^  fRsentohap- 
kins  are  borne  as  belonging  to  Uie  oidinaiy  F 
—By  virtue  of  being  chaplains  of  Greenwich 
Ho^ital;  one  is  eolerea  upon  the  Hulk's 
book,  at  Woelwid^  the  other  at  Defitford ; 
the  two  present  chaplains  are  so,  and  it  was 


Mr.  1StiM$  called  in  again. 

Was  3poar  father  borne  upon  the  ordinafy 
before  lie  was  chaplain? — Yes;  he  was  made 
chaplain  of  Greenwich  Hos|»tal,  bf  being 
boRie  upon  the  books. 

Do  tfiey  ever  contribute  to  the  charity,  by 
being  boine  in  ordinai^y  ^  ^^  Hospital?— 
That  is  a  thiqg  I  cannot  answer,  it  is  so  loi^ 


You  are  sure  he  never  was  at  sea?-*Ican 
a^r  l>e  never  was  at  sea  to  go  a  voyace. 

Were  those  chapbunsj  by  being  oome  ia 
ordinaiy,  looked  upon  as  bdeaging  so  to  the 
Homtal,  as  to  contabute  any  fu^  which 
chaplains  have  done  who  have  been  at  sea,  to 
the  diarity  of  the  Hospit^?— *I  don't  beheve 
that,  I  cannot  aoeount  for  that»  I  don't  know. 

Your  fother  was  chaplain  to  the  Hoapilai? 
i^Yes. 

How  long«>?— In  the  year  1704  or  17i05. 
.  Upon  the  test  establishment  of  the  Hos- 
pital?—The  veir  first  of  all. 

And  was  he  looked  upon  as  a  sea-chaplain 
when  he  was  put  into  the  Hospital  ? — I  can- 
not account  for  tfaat^  the  two  first  chaplains 
were  taken  fiom  the  ordinary. 

Taken  Itobi  the  ordinary  as  sea  chaplains? 
— ¥es;  one  from  Woolwich,  and  the  ether 
£iom  I>ept(ord. 


Wedn€$d^y^ilArch  17, 1779. 

Mr.  IUetem,'(tfae  Secretary)  called  in  agsdii* 

i  think  you  ware  desBred  to  make  some 
search  into  what  had  been  the  practice  of  the 
Hft«pi1aJ^  relatiiM  to  the  Tecommendation 
coouog  fiom  the  general  court  to  the  Admi- 
ralty. Have  you  made  any  such  researches? 
i^have. 


What  is  the  result  of  them?-4  have  kioked 
ov«r  the  books  firom  the  commencement  of 
the  establishment  of  Greenwich  Hospital  to 
the  present  hour,  with  as  much  care  as  I  have 
been  able  to  do.  in  the  short  space  of  time  ; 
for  I  hailtyraed  them  over  pegs  by  page,  that 
I  misht  not  miss  aa^  thing.  The  nrst  thing 
I  fina  that  has  any  relation  to  tins  busloess,  ia 
a  memorial  which  appears  in  the  books  in 
November,  1704;  thore  b  neithex  the  day  of. 
the  month  nor  s^poatur^  but  it  iis  clearly  in 
November;  the  memonal  is  firom  the  com- 
missioners to  prmce  George  of  Denmark,  then 
lord  high  admiral,  setting  forth,  that  they  had 
made  preparations  for  100  men;  that  was  the 
first  hundred  that  was  taken  into  the  Hos- 
pital; that  tb^  had  considered  of  the  ofiioers 
and  servanto  necessary  to  be  employed,  and  at 
the  same  time  presenting  his  hignn^  a  bst 
of  candidates  for  the  respective  offices,  that 
his  royal  highness  might  appoint  such  as  to 
him  might  seem  meet:  these  are  the  words  of 
the  recommendation.  ^  In  March  170^-8,  Ed- 
ward Smith  stands  upon  the  minutes  of  the 
general  court,  as  appointed  cook's  second 
mate,  upon  the  recommendation  of  the  direc- 
tors ana  the  oesnmiasioners;"  and  on  the  Ist 
of  April  I  find  entered  into  the  books  the 
prince  of  Denmark's  warraiKt  in  form,  appointr 
ing  the  same  man.  On  the  6tk  of  January, 
1716,  I  find  that  the  general  court  recom- 
mended six  persons  (naming  them)  to  the 
board  of  Admiial^,  for  their  approbation  of 
either  of  them  that  they  should  tWk  proper, 
if  theiy  should  appear  to  their  lordships  to  be 
duly  oualified;  tney  were  recommended  for 
the  omce  of  secretary,  in  the  room  of  Mr. 
Vendrick,  deceased.  On  the  9th  of  Deoend)er 
1716-17,  Hhe  general  court  recommended  to 
the  Adxniralty  Mr.  Thoi;iias  Srowne,  to  be  ap- 
pointed master  brewer.  On  the  23d  of  the 
same  month,  thi^  recommended  a  lieutenant, 
Edward  Smith,  to  the  lords  of  the  Admiral^^ 
to  be  appointed  a  clerk  of  the  cheque,  -and  m 

June  17  S2,  thc^  recommended  Mr. ^  to 

be  the  master  brewer.     I  don't  find  apy  thing 
after  that  date. 

None  since  the  year  17ftS  ? — ^None.  I  find 
many  recommendations  fi:om  the  Admimltv 
to  tbye  general  courts,  to  desire  that  they  will 
recommend  a  perscm,  such  as  the  organist. 

How  many  books  have  you  brought? — ^I 
have  broMght  those  books.  They  are  what  I 
have  made  these  extracts  from,  and  I  brought 
the  books  that  I  might  refer  to  them. 

Put  marks  in  them,  and  let  them  be  handed 
up  to  the  table  ? — There  are  marks  in  tbem< 
there  are  papers  which  refer  to  the  particular 
dates. 

(Tiie  books  and  the  papers  were  laid  on  the 
table.) 

You  mention  an  instance  of  six  reconn 
mended.  One  of  those  was  appointed;  was 
he  not  ?«— It  was  so. 

Was  any  one  appointed,  who  was*  not  in- 
cluded in  the  reGommendation?«-It  will  ap- 


119] 


18  GEOllGfE  ni.         The  Case  qfCapiam  Thomas  BaUlie^        [ISO 


Eear  by  the  books,  that  the  list  of  these  people 
as  been  omitted  to  be  entered  at  the  bottom 
of  the  memorial  to  the  prince :  they  have  not 
entered  the  names  of  the  several'  people  then 
recommended. 

Does  it  not  appear  in  any  account  of  the 
Hospital,  whether  those  persons  were  actually 
in  the  office  afterwards? — ^It  is  impossible  to 
know  that,  unless  we  knew  the  nersons  re- 
coiimiended,  and  tiiere  is  no  list  ol  tiiem. 

[Mr.  Ibbetson  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Maule  (Clerk  of  the  Cheque)  called 

in  again. 

Whether  from  the  list  of  different  officers 
that  have  been  appointed  by  warrant  from  the 
Admimlty,  you  nave  made  any  computation 
of  the  number  that  have  been  appointed  since 
the  present  lord  has  been  at  the  head  of  the 
Admiralty? — I  am  preparing  the  list,  I  have 
not  quite  finished  it,  I  shall  soon  have  done  it. 
ills  grace  the  duke  of  Richmond  ordered  me 
to  n^e  such  a  list,  a  little  before  the  House 
met;  I  immediatelv  began  to  prei>are  it. 

With  rcjgard  to  those  officers  tnat  are  land- 
men, does  It  come  within  your  knowledge  that 
any  of  them  have  given  any  thing  for  their 
employment? — ^Not  to  my  knowledge. 

Do  you  particularly  know  whether  the  chap- 
lains have  made  any  allowance  to  the  preced- 
ing chaplains  for  coming  into  office  ? — I  don't 
know  farther  than  report;  I  cannot  take  it 
upon  me  to  say  it  is  so. 

Were  not  you  in  an  office  that  received  the 
pay,  and  did  you  always  transmit  that  pay? 
What  office  were  you  in  when  these  gentlemen 
were  first  appointed  chaplains? — I  was  trea^ 
surer's  clerk. 

As  such,  did  you  pay  the  chaplains ? — ^Yes. 

Did  you  pay  it  to  them  or  their  predeces- 
sors?— I  cannot  take  upon  me  to  say  that  at 
present. 

Recollect. — ^I  have  often  paid  the  salaries  of 
different  officers  to  their  relations  or  fiiends, 
upon  their  signing  the  books  of  the  Hospital ; 
I  don't  recollect  tne  case  of  the  chaplains  at' 
present;  1  have  frequentiy  paid  the  officers' 
salaries  to  different  people. 

Please  to  endeavour  to  recollect,  whether 
YOU  ever  since  the  present  chaplains  have 
been  appointed,  have  paid  any  of  their  pay  to 
the  late  chaplains? — ^I  believe  I  may. 

The  late  chaplains  were  Mr.  Tindal  and  Mr. 
Campbell? — Yes. 

Wtio  came  in  upon  Mr.  Tindal's  resigna- 
tion ? — Mr.  Cooke. 

Do  you  recollect  whether  you  have  or  not 
paid  any  of  Mr.  Cooke's  pay  to  Mr.  Tindd, 
since  he  has  been  a  chaplain? — I  cannot  take 
upon  me  to  speak  to  that  at  present. 

Have  vou  paid  any  of  the  other  chaplain's 
pay  to  Mr.  Campbell } — ^No. 

I  understood  you  to  say  before,  that  3'ou 
thought  you  had  paid  some  of  their  pay  to 
their  predecessors.^ — Some  of  Mr.  Cooke's,  I 
believe,  I  have  paid;  but  I  cannot  say  posi- 


tively, without  referring  to  the  books  of  the 
Hqspital. 

Do  you  think  that  by  referring  to  your 
books  you  could  speak  more  positively  ? — ^Yes; 
I  believe  I  could. 

What  was  Mr.  Tindal's  age  when  Mr.  Cooke 
succeeded  him? — I  believe  8 1  or  89. 

Did  not  Mr.  Tindal  use  to  discharge  the 
duty  by  deputy  ? — ^For  some  years. 

And  did  not  Mr.  Campbell  do  the  same?— 
They  jointiy  procured  a  person  to  do  the  duty 
for  them. 

Did  they  lately  perform  the  duty  in  person  f 
Have  they  since  lord  Sandwich  has  oeen  at, 
the  board  F — ^No ;  very  seldom. 

Was  Mr.  Tindal's  curate  lod^  in  the  Hos- 
pital ? — The  curate  of  the  Hospital  had  a  room 
or  two,  and  has  been  lodged  for  a  great  num- 
ber of  years.      / 

I  think  you  said  the  other  day,  that  Mr. 
Campbell,  the  chaplain  of  the  Hospital,  had 
ran  away  from  a  ship,  and  had  Ibs  R  taken  off 
afterwards;  did  you  say  that? — 1  believe  {  did. 

From  whence  did  you  gather  that  informa- 
tion?— From  the  navy  office.  I  believe  it 
may  be  proved  from  the  books  of  the  navy 
office,  and  the  Admiralty  books ;  there  is  an 
order  on  the  books  of  the  Admiralty,  by  which, 
he  received  that  five  or  six  months  pay. 

Do  you  know  the  particulars  oi  tnat  run- 
ning away? — ^No;  there  are  people  that  canr 
give  an  account  of  that,  I  believe. 

.  Do  you  speak  from  hearsay? — ^I  speak  of  what 
I  saw  upon  paper,  that  Mr.  Campbell  had  be- 
longed six  or  seven,  or  five  or  »x  months  to  a 
ship,  and  had  ran  away;  he  had  interest  at 
the  Admiralty,  and  had  got  that  R  taken  ofi, 
and  there  is  an  order  from  the  Admiralty  for 
bis  receiving  his  pay,  and  he  did  receive  it. 

Can  you  tell  wnat  year  that  was  in  ? — ^No. 

Can  you  guess  at  all  at  it  ? — ^No ;  I  cannot. 

Did  you  see  it  yourself? — ^No. 

Whether  of  late  years,  before  the  appoint- 
ment of  the  two  present  chaplains,  the  man 
appointed  by  Mr.  Tindal  and  Mr.  Campbell  as 
their  curate,  for  some  time  did  not  do  the 
general  duty  of  the  Hospital  ? — ^He  did. 

Whether  in  Mr.  Campbell  and  Mr.  Tmdal's 
time,  they  ever  did  any  duty  at  the  infirmary  ? 
— ^Never. 

Is  there  any  duty  done  there  now? — ^There 
is  constanUy. 

You  said  that  the  present  chaplains  were 
entered  upon  the  books  of  some  ship,  and  that 
their  pay  went  to  the  Hospital;  I  did  not 
quite  understand  that,  be  so  gO€>d  as  to  ex*- 
plain  it  ? — By  virtue  of  their  appointment  to 
Greenwich  Hospital,  one  is  borne  upon  the 
ordinary,  which  is  the  hulk  at  Deptford,  and 
the  other  at  Woolwich,  and  they  receive  the 
groats  for  their  8er\'ants  and  for  themselves  ; 
tne  Hospital  receives  that,  in  aid  from  the 
treasury  of  the  navy. 

When  they  are  borne  upon  these  iiulks,  are 
they  as  chaplains  to  these  ships? — ^Yes ;  they 
are. 
When  a  clergyman  b  appointed  chaplain  t* 


ISI]        fitipeeHng  ike  Royal  HotpUal  at  Greewmkh.        A.  D«  1776. 


{in 


Greenwich  Hofl|Mte],  is  it  in  conBequence  of 
fab  appoiMluient  that  be  becomes  chaplain 
also  to  a  faolk  ^— It  has  e^er  been  so  since  I 


Is  it  under  one  appointment,  or  are  they 
separate? — They  are  separate  appointments, 
biA  fXD^  is  in  consequence  of  the  otner. 

Now  ibr  what  hulks  are  these  gentlemen 
appointed  chaplains? — I  don't  recollect  the 
ntmes  of  the  ships  now. 

In  these  two  snips,  are  there  any  men  ? — 
There  are  men  in  the  hulks ;  the  men  that 
are  lent  from  Greenwich  Hospital;  and  all 
those  men  that  are  lent  from  otner  ships  that 
come  frtnqk  Deptibrd,  they  are  all  Tictualled  in, 
and  bonitfon  board  of  the  ordinary,  and  there- 
fore #11  the  chaplains  pay  for  that  ship,  and 
the  wtele  ordinary  goes  in  aid  lo  Greenwich 
HospitaL 

Ek>  the  chaplains  do  any  du^  in  oonae^ 
quence  of  that? — ^No;  none. 

Are  they  liable  to  be  called  upon  for  any 
duty  ? — ^I  never  heard  that  they  were. 

Then  the  additional  appointments  which 
are  ^en  to  a  chaplun,  for  nimself  and  for  his 
servant,  are  converted  to  Greenwich  Hospital, 
for  the  use  of  the  Hospital  ? — ^Yes. 

But  they  are  paid  and  discharged  for  chap- 
lains of  such  a  hulk  ? — Yes,  the  treasurer  for 
the  navy  pays  the  pay  due  to  them,  as  chap- 
lains of  tne  hulk  to  Greenwich  Hospital.  I 
have  paid  it  myself  many  times. 

Are  not  the  ordinary  the  men  that  are  em- 
ployed to  do  business,  a^float,  rimng,  and  se- 
voal  things  of  that  sort  ? — ^AU  a%at. 

Are  they  not  paid  as  belonging  to  a  hulk, 
not  to  a  ship  ? — ^They  are  paid  as  thonging  to 
a  hulk,  not  to  a  ship. 

To  a  hulk,  which  is  an  old  ship,  cut  down 
with  a  pair  of  shears,  and  mast  put  in  it  ? — 
Yes. 

Then  have  they  not  four-pence  a  month  out 
of  every  man's  pay  who  is  concerned  in  that 
yard  ? — ^Ycs. 

Were  you  ever  concerned  in  any  other 
dock-yard  ? — No. 

This  four-pence  a  month  is  only  a  mode,  if 
I  understand  you  rieht,  of  sivine  that  pay  to 
Greenwich  Hospital,  in  aia  of  tne  revenue  of 
the  Hospital ;  if  I  understood  you  right,  it  b  a 
sinecure  at  Woolwich  and  Deptfor^  because 
the  men  go  to  church  in  the  parish  churches, 
they  being  both  in  towns ;  but  at  Portsmouth, 
Chatham,  and  Plymouth,  the  chaplain  does 
the  duty  of  the  ordinary,  and  reads  prayers  to 
the  ordinaiy? — ^Yes;  there  are  church-ships 
there. 

These  gentlemen  do  ne^duty,  they  are  not 
sea-chaplains  by  being  appointed  chaplain  to 
the  ordinary? — No;  certsunly  not. 

Is  it  usual  or  not  for  these  chaplains,  who 
have  served  a  regular  time  at  sea,  to  pay  any 
thing  out  of  the  pay  so  earned  towards  the 
chanty  of  Greenwich  Hospital;  I  don't  mean 
people  who  have  been  borne  on  board  of  ship, 
lor  aii  infrmt  may  be  that? — The  stoppages 
are  ail  made  by  the  proper  officers}  it  is  not 


ill  the  option  of  the  chaplain  whether  ke  will 
contribute  or  no,  all  stoppages  whatever  are 
made  at  the  pay-office :  there  is  a  stoppage 
made  put  of  tneir  pay  always,  regularly  ev&y 
month,  for  Greenwich  Hospital,  whether  they 
like  it  or  not 

Do' you  look  upon  persons  to  have  a  right 
to  hold  a  chaplainship  in  Greenwich  Hospital 
who  can  claim  it  no  other  ways  than  having 
having  been  borne  on  board  of  a  ship,  or  an 
hulk  ?  You  have  seen  the  charter? — ^I  have. 

Then  you  will  answer  the  question  I  have 
put  ? — I  cannot  give  any  answer  to  tlmt. 

Are  you  acquainted  with  the  dock-yards  of 
Portsmouth,  Plymouth^  or  Chatham,  to  know 
tke  manner  the  chaplains  do  the  duty  and  are 
paid  there  ? — No,  I  am  not  master  of  the  sub- 
lect  ^  I  have  been  freauently  there ;  I  have 
been  on  BOard  a  churcn-ship  at  prayers ;  but 
how  their  proceedings  are  there,  I  cannot  take 
upon  me  to  say. 

Do  you  apprehend  that  the  chaplains  of 
those  dock-yards  are  paid  for  the  ordinary  bu- 
siness, being  paid  by  the  dodc-yaord  for  the 
duty  on  board  the  church-ships? — They  are 
not  paid  for  the  ordinary,  I  take  it.  They  are 
separate  chaplains,  I  think. 

You  are  not  sure  of  that  ? — ^I  think  it  is  so  - 
but  I  will  not  be  positive. 

Then  we  will  come  to  Deptford  or  Wool* 
wich.  Do  you  know,  or  have  you  ever  heaid 
that  there  were  two  chaplains,  one  for- the  or- 
dinary at  Deptford,  another  tor  the  ordinaiy 
at  Woolwich  r  Did  you  ever  hear  that  ? — ^No, 
I  never  heard  it. 

Upon  the  present  establishment  of  the  chap- 
lains for  Deptford  and  Woolwich ;  for  I  ap. 
prebend  that  one  of  the  chaplains  is  borne  on 
board  the  hulk  at  Deptford  or  Woolwich.  Is 
it  so? — ^Itis  so. 

What  becomes  of  that  pay  ? — ^I  have  said 
before,  it  eoes  to  the  Hospital,  in  aid  to  the 
revenue :  I  have  many  years  received  it  my- 
self, when  I  was  the  treasurer's  deputy. 

Then  since  the  Hospital  has  been  establish- 
ed, there  has  been  no  duty  done  on  board  the 
ordinary  of  Deptford  and  Woolwich  ?  What 
does  it  amount  to  ?  Is  it  considerable  ? — ^Not 
very  considerable. 

From  what  stoppage  does  it  come  ? — The 
treasurer  of  the  navy  makes  the  stoppages, 
and  he  pays  it  under  the  several  heads  ofchap- 
lains  wages,  and  groats  for  the  ordinaries. 

Are  the  chaplains  for  the  ordinaries  borne 
on  board  the  hulks^  supposed  to  be  chaplains 
of  all  the  ships  lying  at  that  port  ? — ^No,  it 
has  nothing  to  do  with  the  ships  at  that  port, 
only  the  men  that  are  borne  on  board  the 
hulks. 

Is  not  the  chaplain  of  a  dock-yard,  chaplain 
of  the  whole  ordinary,  let  it  be  Deptford, 
Woolwich,  or  Chatham? — ^I  believe  not,  for 
this  reason ;  for  if  chaplains  to  the  dock-yards 
werechaplainsto  the  whole  ordiiuuy,  Green- 
wich Hospital  could  not  receive  it  at  the  same 
time. 

'There  is  a  chaplain  besides  to  Woolwich 


99] 


18  GEORGE  IIL 


draught  that  was  laid  before  me ;  I  will  ven- 
ture to  say,  I  should  not  have  put  it  into  any 
^rau^t,  and  will  venture  to  say,  I  should  npt 
have  struck  it  out.  I  forgot  to  mention  there 
was  an  act  of  parliament  passed,  in  re  wd  to 
the  landed  estate,  a  year  after  this  charter, 
which  takes  notice  of  the  charter. 

I  understood  you,  that  the  motives  of  the 
new  charter  was  to  vest  the  landed  estates 
and  give  a  power  to  buy  and  sell  landed 
estates. — ^No,  by  no  means,  the  ereat  motives 
of  the  new  charter  were,  to  enable  the  Hospi^ 
tal  to  act  in  all  those  capacities  that  it  was  ne- 
cessary a  corporation  should  act  in ;  because, 
it  was  before  necessaiy  to  make  every  mem- 
ber of  the  Hospital  a  party  in  civil  suits.  An- 
other great  motive  was,  to  give  the  Hospital  a 
security  for  their  money.  Another  was  the 
case  of  the  boys. 

The  other  alterations  of  the  charter  were 
made  by  the  solicitor,  which  you  did  not  at- 
tend to  ? — ^I  cannot  quite  say  so,  because  my 
own  hand  is  before  the  House  and  may  prove 
against  me,  but  I  rather  believe  it  is  so. 

Was  the  charter  confirmed  by  act  of  parlia^ 
xaent? — Not  strictiy,  but  there  b  an  act  to 
vef«t  the  estates,  which  were  prior  to  the 
charter,  and  by  charter  were  strictiy  vested 
by  two  acts  of  Georee  the  Snd.  There  is  an 
act,  a  year  after  this  charter,  which  vests 
them  out  of  the  king  into  the  commissioners, 
pursuant  to  charter,  and  which  recites  this 
charter  at  that  time. 

It  appears,  by  the  Records,  that  this  matter 
of  charter  had  been  in  agitation  several  times 
formerly? — I  believe  from  the  beginning  of 
the  century.  I  believe  there  are  draughts  of 
charters  as  old  as  1T20,  but  all  that  time  the 
Hospital  was  in  a  fluctuating,  unsettied  body, 
and  rather  pressed  for  supports,  and  not  in  the 
magnitude  ^t  I  found  it. 

You  take  that  to  be  the  reason,  when 
draughts  were  made,  that  the  Hospital's  reve- 
nues were  not  sufficient  ? — ^I  believe,  when  the 
Hospital  erew  to  this  magnitude,  that  the  ne- 
cessity of  getting  a  charter  was  felt ;  and  it 
was  a  work  of  some  time,  and  great  trouble,  to 
get  it  through  the  several  offices. 

What  part  of  the  establishment  of  Green- 
wich Hospital  do  you  mean,  that  has  not  been 
settied  till  within  this  two  or  three  years?— I 
believe  additional  captains  and  lieutenants, 
and  men.  and  many  officers  to  attend  those 
men.  All  the  business  pf  the  management  of 
the  Derwentwater  estate  is  a  veiy  modem 
story,  and  was  never  settied,  in  the  manner  it 
b  now,  till  1749.     [Mr.  Eden  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Sibthorpe,  (late  Solicitor  to  the  Hospital) 

called  in. 

Please  to  give  an  account  to  the  Committee 
of  what  you  Know  relative  to  the  new  charter 
of  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — ^About  the  beginning 
of  the  vear  1772  of  73, 1  am  not  ouite  positive 
as  to  the  time  this  circumstance  happened  in 
ihe  Hospital,  I  was  at  that  time,  with  Mr. 
Everest,  joint  solicitor  of  the  Uo8piUtl»  lieut^ 


The  Case  qf^apiain  Thvmos  BaiHie,         (KlO 

nant-govemor  Boys,  when  I  was  attending  at 
the  board,  I  believe  it  was  March  1778,  lieute^ 
nant-governor  Boys  was  in  the  chair,  at  the 
head  of  tiie  board,  the  solidtor  was  ordered  lo 
be  called  in,  and  I  went  in. 

What  board? — The  board  of  directors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  at  the  Hospital.    The 
lieutenant  governor  said  to  me^  Mr.  Ellis, 
Sir,  is  gone  away  vdth  the  Hospital^s  money. 
I  said  ihad  heard  so.    Then  Sir,  said  he,  you 
must  contrive  to  get  it.    I  said .  I  thought  that 
was  impossible,  as  the  Hospital  vnis  then  cir- 
cumstanced :  I  asked  Mr.  Boys  how  it  was  to 
be  done.    Sir,  sud  he,  it  must  be  done.    I 
answcr«i,  that  might  be  very  well  in  his  idea^ 
but  it  was  not  possible,  in  mv  opinion ;'  for 
that  there  seemed  to  be  no  moae  of  setting  at 
this  money,  but  by  filing  a  bill  or  information, 
in  the  name  of  the  attorney  general,  ^t  the  r^ 
'  lation  of  liie  governor  of  tne  HospitaL  against 
Mr.  Ellis  for  an  account,  and  that  before  that 
business  could  hejgot  to  perfection,  Mr.  Ellts 
would  be  gone.  There  dia  not  appear  to  me  to 
be  any  shorter  vray,  as  no  person  whatever  could 
possibly  swear  that  Mr.  Ellis  was  indebted  to 
nim,  or  to  a  rope  of  sand,  for  so  I  caUed  the 
Hospital  at  that  time,  it  not  beinjg  incorporated. 
I  was  then  directed,  as  solicitor,  with  Mr. 
Everest,  to  take  the  opinion  of  Mr.  Eden,  and 
I  believe  too  of  the  attorney-general,   as  to 
the  proper  mode  of  proceeding  against  EULs. 
Some  of  the  directors  seemed  to  be  struck  with 
what  I  said,  and  thought  it  might  beneces- 
sarv  to  have  further  powers  vested  iifmm, 
and  that  there  shoiUa  be  a  charter,  and  that 
gave  rise  to  this  charter  in  a  very  snort  tim^ 
aiW,  perliaps  even  a4  the  same  board ;  hut^ 
in  a  very  short  time  after,  the  board  of  direc- 
tors came  to  a  resolution  that  a  charter  should 
be  applied  for  in  the  common  course  of  busi- 
ness.   Whcnthe  minutes  were  brought  to  the 
solicitor,  the  business  was  set  about;    Mr. 
Everest  drew  the  first  draught  and  broudht  it 
to  me,  he  having,  I  believe,  under  my  oiiec- 
tions,  applied  for  and  ^t  uie  charter  for  in- 
corporating  the  Foundling  Hospital,  and  took 
that,  in  some  degree,  98  a  mode  for  the  words; 
pf  course,  afler  he  had  made  his  first  drauehtp 
he  brought  that  draught  to  me,  in  whiSi  I 
made  several  alterations,  and  after  I  had  niadc 
those  alterations,  that  draught  was  copied  aad 
laid  before  Mr.  Eden:  Mr.  Eden,  I  think,  I 
am  pretty  sure  too.  made  some  small  altera^ 
tions  in  the  draugnt  so  kid  before  him,  and  / 
also  drew  out  a  paper  in  which  he  prescribed 
other  alterations,  and,  in  pursuance  of  which 
direction  from  tdi.  Eden,  I  did,  in  that  draught, 
make  more  alterations  than  I  had  in  the 
former  draught,  my  lords.   The  miAters  being 
in  that  state,  Mr.  Eden  returned  the  draught* 
and  said,  tluit  he  thou§^  it  was  a  pn^er 
draught;  and then,I  take  it,  that  the  draught 
itself  was  copied  and  laid  before  the  then  at- 
torney-general, another  oopv  was  made  for 
the  soUcitor  general,  and  a  third  copy  for  Mr* 
Eden,  with  mtent  that  they  should  meet  to- 
gett^r  in  consultation,  and  s^Ule  the  chartfic 


JOi]        retp&ftmg  the  iayal  tto^fUal  at  Greewanch*        A.  D.  Vn^* 


[lOS 


0  h  oug^  to  be.    After  the  bbsiness  was 
got  into  that  stage,  there  was  a  meeting  be- 
Iveeii  the  tbei^aMomey  and  solicitor  general, 
and  Mr.  Eden^  at  which  I  was  present.    I 
liaDk,  and  am  pretty  certain  too,  though  I 
have  not  had  any  connection  with  the  Hospi- 
tal ibr  about  three  years  past,  therefore  if  I 
or  it  maybe  easily allow&d  me,  that  there 
WBre    9mo»  alterations  made  in  the   copy, 
iduch  Mr.    Wedderbum  had  as  his  copy; 
there  was  a  directi(»  also  at  the  bottom  of  one 
of  these  oopies,  signed  by  the  then  attorney 
general,  zbA  Mr.  Wedderbum^  directing  the 
letiaiiy  clause  to* be  added  to  it;    that  clause 
was  also  drawn,,  and  they  approved  it.    In  the 
course  of  this  business  the  cnarter,  or  draught 
of  the  ciiarter  at  least,  was  laid  before  tne 
board  of  directors,  I  think  more  Uian  once :  it 
WB8^  towards  the  close  of  the  busfawss,  laid 
MoFo  tiie  general  court,  and  it  was  at  that 
time,  and  I  believe  the  only  time,  that  I  was 
ever  called  into  the  general  court  to  be  asked  a 
(juestMA^  respecting  that  charter.    I  had  ex- 
pressed-mv*  doubts  what  the  stile  of  the  Hos- 
^tal  should  be ;  I  thought  the  word  commis- 
flioner  was  not  a  proper  one,  because  it  was  a 
charter^  and  not  a  commission :  I  thought  the 
word  governor  not  a  very  proper  one,  there 
Mi^  aaother  governor,  or  a  particular  officer 
called  a  governor :   I  thought  the  word  guar- 
ifiaD;  which  I  believe  is  part  of  the  title  of 
Foundling    Hospital,,    an   improper    thing. 
Ksvmg  signifiedf  these  doubts,  I  was  called 
iata  a  eeneral  court  of  admiralty,  at  the  head 
of  -whiSi  board  lord  Sandwich  was,  and  having 
been  asfced,  I  am  not  sure  by  whom,  I  thinS 
Mr.  Stephens^  what  I  had  to  say  respecting 
the  title?    I  made  nearly  the  same  obser- 
vatwRsthen  that  I  have  now.    Lord  Sand- 
wich said,  it  did  not  seem  to  signify  one  far- 
Ifaiog  wtet  tiiey  were*  called,  so  that  they 
were  incorporatea  by  some  title,  upon  which  I 
withdrew.    Theseare  the  genml  outlines  of 
a4iat  I  have  had  to  do,  m  respect  of  this 
charter.    It  was  my  duty,  after  the  business 
iMkd   been  gone  through  at  ^e  Admiralty, 
Mng  older  and  having  had  more  experience 
than,  Mir.  Everest,  to  conduct  the  matter, 
more  espedally  as  I  lived  in  town  and  he  at 
GreeBwich,  and  I  prosecuted  the  charter  till 
it  got  under  the  great  seal ;  and,  I  think,  the 
first  Saturday,  or  perhaps  the  second  in  De- 
cember,  1775,  I  carried  the  charter  to  the 
Hospital,  and  thought  that  I  had  done  the 
moflt  noble  act  that  I  should  ever  do,  if  I 
lived  an  hundred  years. 

Whether  you  recollect  which  were  the 
alteiations  that  were  made  by  yourself,  before 
it  was  sent  to  the  attorney  and  solicitor-gene^ 
ral,  and  Mr.  Eden,  and  which  were  made  by 
those  gentlemen  afterwards  ?-^I  cannot  say  as 
to  the  purport  of  them  now,  if  I  had  the  pa^ 
pers^  I  believe  I  could  point  them  out^ 

Are  th^  the  papers  which  are  before  the 
House  I — ^1  b^eve  they  are. 

(Some  papers  shewn  the  witness.) 


This  is  the  draudit  as  first  prepared  bv  Mr. 
Everest,  and  brougnt  by  him  to  me ;  tne  al- 
terations made  are  in  my  hand-writing,  and 
are  numerous. 

I  don't  mean  to  give  you  the  trouble  of 
mentioning  every  ven>al  alteration  you  have 
made,  but  to  particular  points ;  the  first  is^ 
the  omitting  tne  oower  to  the  general  court, 
and  giving  it  to  uie  Admiralty ;  the  second, 
the  power  of  removal  in  the  Admlralt^r ;  the 
third,  the  appropriation  of  these  monies  for 
the  use  of  the  Hospital;  the  fourth  is,  the 
power  of  sellins  ? — ^As  to  one  of  these  ques-' 
tions,  ^e  words  of  this  first  draught,  as  it 
originally  stood,  were  those.  "  And  that  the 
said  governor,  and  deputy-governor,  and  the 
treasurer  now  and  for  the  time  being,  do  as- 
^st  at  all  meetings,  the  said  commissioners 
and  governors,  or  the  directors,  of  the  said 
Hospital  hereafler  mentioned ;  and  we  do 
hereoy  empower  our  said  commissioners,  or 
any  seven  or  more  of  them,  to  recommend  to 
our  commissioner  for  executing  the  ofBce  of 
high  admiral  now  and  for  the  time  being,  our 
high  admiral,  for  the  time  being,  or  as  thev 
may  be,  to  appoint,  from  time  to  time,  all 
officers  necessary  to  be  employed  in  and  for 
the  said  Hospital.''  These  words  were  in  this 
draught,  when  Mr.  Everest  first  drew  it  and 
brought  it  to  me. 

Is  the  word  *  accordingly'  there  ? — No,  I 
altered  it  in  this  way.  "  And  we  do  hereby 
empower  the  members  of  this  corporation,  or 
any  seven  or  more  of  them,  so  assembled  in  a 
general  court,  to  recom^iend  to  our  high  ad- 
miral, for  the  time  being,  or  our  commission- 
ers for  executing  the  onice  of  high  admiral, 
now  and  for  the  time  being,  to  appoint,  fi-om 
time  to  time,  all  officers  necessary  to  be  em^- 
ployed  in  and  for  the  said  Hospital."  And  it 
appears  by  this  draught,  that  upon  reconsi- 
dering that  clause,  I  struck  it  wholly  out. 

Will  you  be  pleased  to  recollect,  whether  it 
was  of  your  own  motion,  or  from  instructions 
from  any  body  else,  that  you  did  strike  that 
clause  out  ? — ft  was  either  from  my  own  mo- 
tion, or  conjunction  with  Mr.  Everest,  in  con- 
sidering the  matter  again,  and  not  from  any 
person  whatever,  except  himself  and  me,  that 
that  alteration  was  mane  so. 

What  might  be  your  reason  for  striking  of 
that  out?— 5  cannot  possibly  say  what  my 
reason  was,  but  I  am  well  convinced  ii\  my 
mind,  that  at  the  time  I  did  it,  I  had  good 
reason  for  so  doing  ;  for  I  had  no  wish  what- 
ever to  do  anv  thing  but  prepare  such  a  charr 
ter  as  should  be  for  the  benefit  of  the  Hospi- 
tal, in  all  its  parts,  as  far  as  my  judgment 
should  extend. 

Do  you  recollect  any  abuse  that  had  been 
made,"  bv  that  power  in  the  general  court, 
that  made  you  think  it  necessary  to  strike  it 
out  ? — I  have  endeavoured  a  great  deal  to  re- 
collect since  what  I  heard  passed  from  Mr. 
Eden,  that  there  was  any  such  power  prac- 
tised by  the  general  court,  but  during  the 
time  I  had  the  management  of  the  business  of 


103] 


18  GEORGE  lU.         The  Case  of. Captain  Thomas  BmlUe,         [101 


the  Hospital^  eeneral  courts  were  Terr  imfre- 
quent ;  four,  nve,  even  to  nine  months  haVe 
elapsed,  from  one  general  court  to  another.  ^ 

Had  you  any  information  from  any  body, 
that  the  genend  court  had  not  made  use  of 
that  power  ? — ^Not  that  I  know  of. 

Upon  what  ^ound  do  you  say  they  had  not 
made  use  of  it  ? — I  don't  say  they  had  not. 
but  that  I  did  not  know  they  had.  I  haa 
nothing  to  do  with  the  appointment  of 
officers. 

Had  you  any  reason  to  think  that  they  had 
not  made  use  of  that  power? — ^I  rather  think 
I  had  no  particular  reason,  more  than  that 
the  general  courts  were  held  so  seldom,  there 
seemed  no  necessity  to  continue  that  pnower  ; 
that  it  might  be  injurious  to  the  Hospital,  if 
the  officers  should  be  delayed  nine  or  ten 
months. 

Was  there  not  a  power  for  the  Admiralty 
to  call  general  courts  when  they  thought 
proper  ? — I  do  not  recollect  that,  I  have  not 
seen  the  commission  these  three  years. 

The  other  alterations  were  the  additional 
power  given  of  a  displacing  or  removal  ? — That 
was  an  alteration  in  pursuance  of  Mr.  £den*s 
direction,  this  draught  having  been  copied 
from  my  alterations  hy  my  son ;  this  is  that 
copy.  Mr.  Eden,  when  he  looked  through  it, 
has  made  marks  in  the  margin;  and  u])on 
loose  paper,  gave  his  thoughts  respecting 
what  alterations  should  be  made  in  such  ana 
such  places ;  he  has  also  made  several  other 
trivial  alterations  in  the  draught,  as  he  goes 
on;  in  this  draught,  folio  leven,  there  is 
tomethine  which  I  am  well  convinced  in  my 
mind  is  Mr.  Eden's;  and  these  words  are 
underlined,  afler  the  words  '^  except  the  cover- 
xiors  and  treasurer  of  the  said  Hospital  pro- 
vided that  all  such  persons  to  be  admittea  mto 
the  said  Hospital,  as  the  officers  of  the  House, 
or  otherwise^  be  seafaring  men,  or  such  who 
have  lost  their  limbs,"  down  to  the  words, "  or 
otherwise,"  are  underlined ;  and  in  conse- 
quence tbls  alteration  was  made^  *^  except  the 
governor  and  treasurer  thereof,  and  to  dis- 
place, remove  or  suspend  any  such  officer  or 
officers  for  his  or  their  misbehaviour,  and  to 
appoint  any  such  officer  or  officers  in  the 
room  of  him  and  them  so  displaced  or  re- 
moved, provided  that  all  such  officers  to  be 
employed  in  the  said  office  are  seafaring  men." 
These  words  are  my  writing,  in  pursuance  of 
^r.  Eden's  directions. 

Do  you  know  what  were  the  reasons  in  Mr. 
Eden's  directions,  for  leaving  out  the  words 
•*  or  otherwise  T— That  will  appear  I  believe 
upon  that  paper  of  Mr.  Eden's  writing. 

(The  Paper  read.) 

In  the  power  eiven  to  vacate  the  offices, 
and  to  alter  the  salaries,  that  is  all  upon  a  re- 
presentation of  the  general  court  upon  Mr. 
£den|s  plan,  how  came  it  to  be 'different  from 
that  in  the  charter? — I  have  no  doubt,  but 
these  words  as  they  stand  in  this  draught  so 
nserted^were  shewn  to  Mr.  Eden  ai\er  they 


were  so  inserted,  and  that  he  approved  them  ^ 
the  words  are  these :  ^*  And  we  do  hereby  au^ 
thorise  and  empower  our  high  admiral  for  the 
time  being,  ana  commissioners,  &c.  to  lypoint 
all  officers  necessary  to  be  employed  in.  and 
for  the  said  Hospital,  except  the  governor  and 
treasurer  thereof,  and  to  displace,  &c." 

With  regard  to  the  other  two  alterations,, 
the  leaving  out  these  words  in  the  charts,  that 
say,  all  monies  shall  be  applied  strictly  to  the 
use  of  the  ssud  Hospital. — ^I  believe  they  were 
lefl  outj^  as  being  thought  wholly  unnecessary,, 
for  the  inserting  them  would  have  no  kind  of 
effect,  more  than  the  law  would  have  on  those 
who  took  the  money. 

And  the  power  of  selling,  who  put  that  in  ? 
— ^I  16ok  upon  it,  so  much  as  I  know  of  char^ 
ters,  that  the  charter  would  be  incomplete^ 
unless  such  a  power  were  inserted,  tboueh 
perhaps  it  woula  not  be  efiGsctual  to  enable  ue 
corporation  to  sell. 

What  I  want,  is  to  know  who  was  the  per- 
son that  inserted  that,  and  was  it  in  the  origin 
nal  draughty  as  sent  to  you  by  Mr.  Everest? — 
They  were  m  the  first  draugnt. 

So  that  they  are  inserted  by  Mr,  Everest 
originally  ? — ^YeSr 

Has  there  always  been  a  joint  solicitor,  or 
was  it  peculiar  to  that  time  ? — I  have  h«uicl 
that  Mr.  Radley,  and  Mr.  Everest's  father, 
were  joint,  but  I  don't  know  it  of  my  own 
knowledge ;  I  did  not  know  Mr.  Radley. 

The  powers,  as  I  understand  you,  for  fram- 
ing this  new  charter,  were  not  given  you  at  a. 
general  court,  but  by  lieutenant  governor  Boys,, 
at  a  court  of  directors. — ^No,  by  the  minute  of 
the  board,  not  by  the  directions  of  any  one 
man ;  I  ^nk  the  minute  of  the  board  of  di* 
rectors,  but  I  am  not  sure  whether  it  was  that, 
or  the  minute  of  a  general  court;  I  rather 
think  the  minute  of  a  board  of  directors. 

Where  was  it  held  ? — The  general  court  al- 
ways at  the  Admiralty,  the  board  of  directors 
is  neld  generally,  but  not  universally^  at 
Greenwich,  or  Saltcrs-hall. 

Then  you  can  certainly  recollect,  whether 
your  power  came  from  the  general  court,  or 
board  of  directors? — I  cannot  say  that. 

Had  you  powers  in  writing? — ^We  had,  for 
we  never  did  any  thing  without  power  in  writ- 
ing. 

Signed  by  whom  ? — The  secretary. 

Who  is  Uiat } — Mr.  Ibbetson. 

Where  is  that? — I  delivered  it,  with  all  the 
papers  I  had  respecting  Greenvach  Hospital,, 
when  I  quitted  London  about  three  years  aco* 

Can  you  recollect  what  the  powers  wereX— 
To  prepare  a  charter,,  under  tne  direction  of 
Mr.  Eden,  as  I  think^  and  am  pretty  sure  too»~ 

Without  particulariring  the  alterations  that 
were  to  be  made  in  it? — ^Without  describing 
any  alterations  at  all. 

Do  you  apprehend,  that  a  board  of  directors, 
without  consulting  a  general  court,  have  a 
pow^r  to  order  new  charters  to  be  made  out,  of 
their  own  accord  ? — I  think  that  they  mifiht 
have  that  power,  but  am  not  sure  which  ilr 


J053        rtipeeUng  the  Rcjfol  HtapUal  of  Greitmch.    .    A.  D.  1778« 


CMW 


wwa,  Ihe  general  court's  minute,  or  the  direc- 
tonf  minute;  I  am  not  sure,  but  the  minute 
vfll  speak  for  itself. 

£^  where  are  these  minutes  ? — The  origi- 
nal in  the  hands  of  the  secretary,  Mr.  Ibbet* 
son ;  the  copy  came  to  me. 

You  have  mentioned  what  lord  Sandwich . 
said  to  you  at  the  board,  that  it  did  not  signify 
under  what  name,  provided  they  were  incor- 
porated. I  will  a^  ymx  whether  you  had  any 
other  conversation  with  lord  Sandwich,,  rela- 
tire  to  the  charter,  and  whether  he  ever  gave 
}fou  any  directions  relative  to  it,  except  that 
time? — I  had  never  any  conversation  ¥dth 
him  I  think  upon  any  subject,  and  never  any 
Erections  fVom  him  of  any  sort  whatever,  ex- 
cept what  I  mentioned. 

Whether  in  the  number  of  years,  that  you 
banged  to  Greenwich  Hospital,  previous  to 
the  charter  beine  granted,  you  ever  knew  of 
one  instance  of  we  genersd  court  recommend- 
ing any  officer  ? — ^No. 

Honv  many  years  have  you  been  acquainted 
with  the  omce? — ^I  was  first  concerned  as 
agent  for  Mr.  Everest's  father,  about  the  year 
1766. 

You  must  explain  that  if  you  please;  you 
sudy  that  you  never  knew  that  the  general 
court  had  recommended  officers  to  the  board 
of  Admiralty,  to  be  appointed  for  Greenwich 
Hospital.  Have  you  said  that? — ^I  have  said 
so. 

Had  such  a  thin^  happened,  must  you  have 
been  acquainted  with  it  ? — It  does  not  follow 
ihaX  I  should. 

Did  you  attend  the  general  court  ? — Yes. 
Where? — ^At   the  Admiralty,  they   were 
never  held  any  where  els^  as.  I^  know  of. 

Why  were  the  eeneral  cotirts  reduced  to 
twice  a  year  instead  of  four  times ; '  for  by  the 
commission,  they  are  to  be  held  four  times  a 
year,  and  oftener  if  the  Admiralty  board  called 
them-  why  was  that  alteration  made  ? — ^lean- 
not  take  upon  me  to  say  that. 

Can  you  take  upon  you  to  say,  who  made 
that  alteration  ? — ^I  cannot  without  having  re- 
course to  the  papers. 

Whctiier  you  carried  the  draught  of  this 
new  charter  to  the  consultation  alluded  to,  of 
the  attorney  and  solicitor-general  ? — The  co- 
pies were  either  carried  by  roe  or  Mr.  Everest, 
or  one  or  other  of  my  clerks,  but  to  say  which 
at  this  time,  I  cannot ;  I  did  attend  the  consul- 
tation. 

At  that  consultation,  did  you  point  out  to  the 
attorney  and  solicitor-^neral,  the  alterations 
made  in  the  draueht  <?  the  new  chartei;,  from 
what  was  in  the  old  commission  ? — The  attor- 
ney-general was  in  possession  of  a  commis- 
aon ;  he  had  been  auditor,  and  as  such,  doubt- 
less had  a  commission,  and  I  think  I  remem- 
ber to  have  seen  it  in  his  custody  bound  in  red 
leather;  the  solicitor-general,  I  have  no 
^doubt,  had  a  commission,  Mr.  Eden,  as  an  au- 
ditor, could  not  have  executed  his  office  pro- 
peily  without  one ;  I  therefore  conclude  he 
huA  one,  but  to  say  that  I  pointed  out  the  diL 


ference  between  the  comnussion  and  the  char- 
ter, I  cannot 

>  Do  you  remeinber  thaft  it  was  a  subject  of 
the  consultation,  whether  those  alterations 
were  proper  to  be  adopted  in  the  new  charter 
or  not  ?-^I  don't  know  that;  Mr.  Wedderbum 
did  make  some  alterations  at  the  consultations 
in  the  form,  and  the  then  attorney  and  solici- 
tor«2eneral  did  subscribe  one  copy,  and  I 
think  the  writing  itself  is  of  Mr^  Wedder- 
bum's  writing. 

Then  you  know,  finom  these  circumstances^ 
that  they  were-  fully  aware  that  these  ahera-' 
tions  were  made  in  the  new  charter  ? — I  can- 
not take  upon  me  to  say,  that  the  attorney 
and  solicitor-general,  or  either  of  them,  did 
compare  the  charter  with  the  commission. 
Some  short  time  before  the  charter  passed  the 
seal,  the  then  attorney-general  requested  U> 
see  the  old  commission ;  he  de^red  to  see 
those  commissions  which  had  been  granted 
by  former  prmces,  and  they  were  carried  to 
his  house  in  Ormond-street ;  af^r  the  charter 
was  completed,  I  fetched  them  from  thence. 

It  was  not  a  matter  that  you  heard  discuss- 
ed at  the  consultation  ? — The  principal  matter 
that  was  discussed  at  the  consultation,  was  re- 
specting the  security  that  should  be  given  by 
those  that  had  the  receipt,  or  expenmture,  of 
the  Hospital  money. 

When  I  speak  of  the  alterations,  I  allude  to 
the  four  particular  points  that  have  been  stated 
to  you  ? — ^I  don't  tnink  they  were  particularly 
attended  to  at  that  time. 

How  long  was  this  consultation  beibve  the 
charter  passed  the  seal  ?— The  paper  will  shew 
you,  because  there  is  the  signature  of  the  then 
attorney  and  solicitor-general,  with  the  date 
to  it,  as  I  think. 

You  don't  recollect  ? — No,  but  dare  say  th* 
paper  will  tell  you,  because,  I  dare  sav,  thera 
was  a  date  to  it       [Mr.  Sibthorpe  withdrew.}. 

Mr.  Ibhetson  called  in. 

How  long  have  you  been  concerned  in 
Greenwich  Hospital?— Seventeen  years,  next 
May,  I  have  been  appointed  secretary  to 
Greenwich  Hospital. 

What  has  been  the  practice  of  the  jgenend 
court,  with  respect  to  recommendations  to 
offices? — ^I  am  very  certain  that  there  has 
not  been,  in  one  instance,  not  only  since  I 
have  been  secretary  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
but  since  I  have  been  in  the  Adbmiralty, 
which  is  34  vears,  the  eeneral  court  having 
recommended  to  the  Admiralty,  any  one 
officer  to  be  appointed  into  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital. 

Do  you  recollect,  finom  any  documents  thai 
you  Imve  in  your  possession,  whether  there 
ever  were  any  recommendations,  from  the  ikst 
institution  of  the  Hospital  ? — ^I  believe  therm 
was ;  I  believe  it  will  appear,  upon  examining 
the  books  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  that,  for 
some  few  years  after  its  first  establishment,  I 
think  that  I  have  seen  that  the  general  court 
did  recommend  to  the  Admiralty,;  but  I W* 


131] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  qfCaptdn  ThomM  BaiOie,         [139 


^m€^  past,  slaughtered  bulls,  which  were  cut 
up  for  the  use  ot  the  pensioners,  brought  down 
to  Greenwich  Hospital,  and  served  up  at  their 
tables.  I  represented  this  to  sir  Charles 
Hard^,  the  governor,  desiring  he  would  lay  the 
depositidns  before  the  board  of  directors,  that 
the  contractor  might  be  prosecuted;  they 
were  laid  before  the  board  ot  directors,  and  he 
was  prosecuted;  but  the  prosecution  was  car- 
ried on  in  such  a  desultory  manner,  that  it  was 
a  whole  year  before  it  was  brought  to  an  issue. 
I  set  oil  at  first  with  six  witnesses,  most  of 
them  the  butcher's  own  servants,  at  last  they 
dwindled  away  to  only  two,  the  prosecution 
was  so  tedious ;  and  long  before  it  came  to 
issue,  one  man  I  was  obliged  to  secrete  in  the 
coimtry,  where  he  was  not  known,  or  clse^  I 
believe,  I  should  have  lost  that  man  also,  and 
have  had  no  evidence  at  all. 

Did  these  six  witnesses  make  affidavits? — 
No,  only  three;  I  thoiight  it  would  not  be  so 
proper  to  take  them  all  to  be  sworn  before  I 
came  into  a  court  of  justice ;  so  I  took  three  only 
to  be  examined  before  the  magistrate,  the  pro- 
secution was  carried  on,  the  butcher  was  con- 
victed, but  I  should  have  told  your  lordships, 
whilst  he  was  under  prosecution,  the  directors 
thought  proper  to  renew  the  contract  with  the 
same  man,  though  there  lay  before  th^m  in- 
formation upon  oath,  that  he  had  cheated  the 
Hospital ;  I  objected  to  that  contract,  but  it 
was  to  no  purpose. 

What  court  of  directors  was  that?  call  for 
the/minutcs  of  that  court,  to  see  who  were 
present? — I  don*t  know  the  number  of  the 
du'ectors,  but  it  will  appear  by  the  minutes,  it 
was  in  June  1775;  I  believe  the  depositions 
were  laid  before  the  board  of  directors;  the 
contract  was  renewed  in  the  March  following; 
in  the  mean  time  I  will  inform  yoiu-  lordships, 
that  while  he  was  under  this  prosecution,  a 
•econd  contract  was  renewed  with  the  same 
man,  afler  he  was  convicted  of  frand. 

(Mr.  Ibbetson  produced  the  book  of  the  Mi- 
nutes of  the  Di^tors) 

'  '^  A  minute  of  the  board  of  directors  of  the 
14th  of  June  1776;  present,  sir  Charles 
Hardy,  captain  Baillie,  captain  Hood,  Mr. 
Fonnereau,  Mr.  Pet^  Mr.  Steward,  Mr.  Cust, 

Mr. ,  Mr.  Hicks,  sir  Peter  Dermis,  Mr. 

Barker,  Mr.  Marsh,  Mr.  James,  the  rev.  Mr. 
Cooke,  captain  Campbell,  and  Mr.  Palgrave. 
The  governor  laid  before  the  board  a  paper, 
which  had  been  brought  to  him  by  the  lieute- 
nant-governor, containing  the  affidavit  of 
James  Hattersiey  and  John  Boycot,  two  per- 
sons late  in  the  service  of  the  butcher,  and 
Alexander  Moore,  cook,  first  mate,  setting 
forth,  that  the  Hospital  has,  for  some  time 
past,  been  served  with  the  flesh  of  bulls  and 
bull-stags,  instead  of  that  of  oxen,  agreeable 
to  the  contract.  Odered,  that  the  solicitor 
lay  the 'said  affidavits  and  the  butcher's  con- 
tract before  Mr.  Newiiham,  and  take  his  opi- 
nion in  what  manner  it  is  propei^  to  proceed 
ugainst  the  contractor.'' 


Capt  Baillie,  In  March  following  the  con- 
tract was  renewed  again. 

Mr.  Ibbetson,  There  is  something  which 
followed  this,  the  sohcitor,  oh  the  14th  of 
June,  the  very  day  the  affidavits  were  brought, 
it  was  desired  to  take  an  opinion  in  what 
manner  the  butcher  could  be  prosecuted.  At 
the  very  next  meeting,  which  wa9  the  24th  of 
that  month,  the  solicitor  delivered  to  the  board 
Mr.  Newnham's  opinion  upon  the  case,  laid 
before  him  in  consequence  of  the  resolution 
of  the  last  board,  &c.  Whereby  he  recom- 
mends, that  both  the  present  and  former  con- 
tractor should  be  prosecuted  on  their  re- 
spective bonds,  for  not  having  compfied  with 
their  contracts ;  ordered,  that  the  solicitor  do 
cause  prosecutions  to  be  immediately  com- 
menced against  them,  agreeable  to  the  said 
opinion. 

Are  there  any  other  orders  of  the  board  re- 
lative to  this  business,  between  the  order  and 
the  renewing  of  the  contract? — ^No.  On  th«^ 
13th  of  March,  1776,  present  sir  Ch|u:lei 
Hardy,  captain  Baillie,  captain  Hood,  Mr. 
Fonnereau,  Mr.  Pett,  Mr.  Steward,  Mr.  Cleve- 
land, Mr.  Hicks,  Mr.  Barker,  Mr.  Wells,  Mr. 
James,  the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke,  captain  Camp* 
bell,  Mr.  Wells,  and  sir  Richard  Bickerton^ 
proposals  were  given  in  for  supplying  the  Hos- 
pital with  meat ;  and  Mr.  Mellish  the  present 
collector,  offering  to  do  it  at  1/.  12<.  per  hun- 
dred weight,  his  proposal  was  found  conside- 
rably the  lowest,  and  was  accepted.  Ordered 
that  the  solicitor  prepare  a  contract  between 
the  Hospital  and  Mr.  Mellish  accordinglv. 

Are  those  contracts  determined  by  ballot  or 
a  division  ?  fii  what  manner  is  it  settled  ? — 
The  method  of  contracting  with  Greenwich 
Hospital  is,  advertisements  are  always  pub- 
lished, and  people  that  are  inclined  to  servs 
the  Hospital,  give  their  tenders  in  writing 
those  tenders  are  sent  in  sealed  to  the  board, 
and  the  general  practice  has  been,  that  before 
they  are  opened^  the  people  are  called  in; 
they  write  tneir  names  on  the  outside,  and  are 
asked,  whether  those  are  the  lowest  proposals ; 
if  they  say  yes,  they  are  desired  to  withdraw^ 
and  then  it  is  opened ;  tliat  has  been  the  con- 
stant  practice ;  I  don't  say^  whether  it  has  al- 
ways been  the  practice,  for  it  has  been  thought 
a  useless  thing  latterly  to  call  them  in,  aner 
once  they  have  sent  in  their  proposals  sealed, 
tlien  the  lowest  proposer  is  the  man  who  has 
it ;  I  never  rcmem>»er  any  division  about  it. 

You  were  present  at  this  court,  were  you } 
— I  was  present  ^  the  one  in  17  7  6. 

Do  you  recollect  that  any  objection  waa 
made  to  renewing  the  contract  with  the  per- 
son who  was  then  under  a  prosecution  by  that 
very  board  ? — I  don't  recollect  in  1776,  if  any 
^'as  made  in  1777,  I  cannot  say,  because  I 
was  not  present  then. 

Whether  after  the  contract  was  made  once 
to  Mr.  Mellish,  was  there  any  proof  ^ven  of 
Mr.  Mellish's  having  served  the  Hospital  with 
any  meat  that  was  improper  or  was  there 
any  fault  found  with  his  peiionnance  of  the 


139]         respecting  the  Royal  Hospital  nt  Greenwich.        A.  D.  1778. 


[134 


renuiiUDg  part  of  the  contract,  after  this  gen* 
tleman  was  turned  out  ? — ^At  the  first  contract, 
afio-  the  affidavits^  I  mean  the  contract  in 
1776,  the  matter  had  not  been  brought  to 
trial,  consequently  he  had  not  been  convicted. 
and  must  be  looked  upon,  I  apprehend,  till 
nth  ooaviction,  as  an  mnocent  man. 

W8&  or  was  not  this  person  who  was  com- 
pkuned  of,  continued  aider  there  had  proof 
been  given  of  his  serving  the  Hospital  with 
had  meat ;  I  think  it  has  come  out  that  he 
was  discontinued? — ^No,  it  does  not  appear 
that  he  was  discontinued. 

Was  not  the  contract  given  to  Mr.  Mellish  ? 
— ^YeSy  he  was  the  person  that  was  prosecuted. 

Was  there  any  other  person  that  that  con- 
iract  was  ofiered  to,  I  understood  you  so  ? — 
No. 

If  there  had  been  any  objection  made  to 
renewing  the  contract  with  this  person,  by 
their  method  of  keeping  the  minutes,  that 
objection  would  appear  ? — It  certainly  would, 
if  It  had  been  an  oDjection  made  to  the  board ; 
if  any  one  of  the  members  present,  had  de- 
sired that  his  dissent  might  have  been  entered 
in  the  minutes,  it  certainly  would,  but  it  is  not 
usual  to  take  aown  in  mmutes,  any  thing  a 
ainsle  member  says. 

Would  it  have  appeared,  if  it  had  been  de- 
•lexmined  by  a  majority  ?— -Certainly  it  would. 

Was  captain  &illie  present  at  that  first 
meeting? — He  was. 

It  does  not  appear  that  captain  Baillie  did 
object? — ^It  does  not  appear  by  the  minutes. 

You  were  present,  dia  he  in  hci  object  ? — I 
^on^t  recollect  that  he  did. 

Can  you  refer  to  the  advertisement,  and  the 
^nm  of  it  ? — ^I  cannot  produce  the  form  of  the 
advertisement,  we  do  not  keep  any  copy  of 
them,  they  are  things  of  course. 

From  your  recollection  of  them,  are  those 
advertisements  of  such  a  nature  as  to  oblige 
the  court  to  give  it  to  the  lowest  bidder  ? — 
No,  there  is  nothing  obligatory  to  the  adver- 
tisement; it  is  for  such  persons  as  may  be  in- 
clined to  give  in  their  proposals  at  SalterV 
hall  at  such  a  day,  and  such  a  time,  and  they 
are  to  do  it  agreeable  to  a  form,  wnich  they 
will  receive  at  the  proper  office  at  Greenwich 
Hosmtal,  where,  by  the  advertisement,  they 
are  oirected  for  the  form. 

Is  there  any  thing  said  in  the  advertise- 
ment, that  the  lowest  bidder's  terms  will  be 
accepted? — ^Not  at  all. 

But  it  has  .been  the  constant  practice  among 
the  directors  to  take  the  lowest  ? — ^Yes,  ever 
since  I  have  been  there. 

A  to  Captain  Baillie.  Did  you  object  at 
that  board  of  directors? — A. '  I  did  positively 
object  to  Mr.  Mellish's  having  a  renewal  of 
hb  contract ;  the  answer  vras,  it  was  a  mere 
natter  of  suspicion,  and  that  those  servants  of 
the  butcher  who  nad  given  evidence,  were 
under  prosecution  themselves,  for  stealing  the 
contractor's  meat;  therefore  their  evidence 
Might  oat  to  be  taken  at  all,  upon  that  I  said 
tH)  wnffe,  the  contract  was  renewed.     The 


prosecution  commenced  in  June,  1775,  it  was 
not  brought  to  issue  till  June,  1776:  ailer 
that  it  appeared,  that  Mr.  Melhsh  had,  prior 
to  this  contract^  supplied  the  Hospital  with 
bull-beef  for  a  considerable  time. 

How  does  it  appear? — Upon  the  affidavits 
of  the  different  persons  earned  before  the  ma- 
gistrate, they  had  sworn  to  different  contracts; 
one  man  to  the  contract  then  existing,  another 
to  the  contract  prior  to  that,  and  I  moved  it 
to  the  board,  that  he  might  be  prosecuted  for 
that  contract  also.  Mr.  £den  was  a  principal 
person  that  assisted  to  bring  on  that  prosecu- 
tion, which  continued  another  whole  year. 

What  was  the  event  of  the  first  prosecu- 
tion?—He  was  prosecuted  only  for  ten  penal- 
ties, but  I  believe  a  hundred  might  have  been 
proved  in  the  course  of  that  contract;  he  was 
convicted  upon  ten  penalties. 

Were  vou  at  the  trial  ? — I  was. 

You  heard  the  sentence  pronoimced.^ — I 
heard  it  pronounced  by  the  judge  and  jury, 
that  he  was  convicted  for  ten  penalties,  they 
brought  the  action  for  100/.  only. 

You  say  you  objected  when  the  contract 
was  renewed,  whilst  he  was  under  a  prosecu- 
tion?— ^Yes. 

You  say  somebody  objected  to  your  objec* 
tion,  do  you  recollect  who  that  was? — I  re- 
member very  well,  if  it  is  proper  to  mention 
names,  which  1  would  rather  wish  to  decline ; 
Mr.  Marsh,  formerly  a  commissioner  of  the 
victualling,  did  declare,  that  he  had  heard  the 
butcher's  men  were  under  prosecution,  for 
stealing  the  contractor's  meat,  and  that  de- 
fence was  set  up  for  him  in  the  King's-bench. 
which  appeared  to  be  entirely  groundless,  and 
without  a  shadow  of  foimdation ;  on  the  se- 
cond prosecution  I  was  ready  in  court  with 
five  witnesses;  he  was  prosecuted  for  fifty 
penalties,  for  fifly  breaches  of  contract.  . 

In  what  year  was  tliat? — 1777. 

This  man  was  convicted  in  ten  penalties, 
for  ten  breaches  of  contract;  I  suppose  there 
was  in  the  contract  a  penalty  of  10/.  for  each 
breach  of  the  contract) — Yes. 

Was  there  or  not  a  general  penalty  besides, 
for  the  breach  of  the  contract? — I  understood 
that  the  penalty  of  10/.  was  merely  to  oblu;e 
him  to  Dring  his  meat  in  due  time,  that  the 
people  might  have  their  dinners  at  the  proper 
hour,  and  a  general  bond  for  the  performance 
of  his  covenant  in  300/. 

Was  the  next  contract  renewed  with  Mr. 
Mellish  before  the  second  trial  or  not  ? — Hav« 
ing  been  convicted  in  the  ten  penalties,  after 
that  the  contract  was  renewed  with  him,  then 
a  second  prosecution  was  carried  on. 

Was  the  second  contract  renewed  with  him, 
before  the  compounding  the  second  trial  ? — 
Yes,  afler  he  was  convicted  on  the  first  trial, 
he  compounded  the  penalties  on  the  next. 

When  was  that  ? — ^He  was  prosecuted  first 
in  1775;  he  was  convicted  in  1776;  and  .in 
1776,  there  was  a  fresh  prosecution  carried  on 
against  him,  for  fifly  other  breaches  of  his 
contract 


135] 


18  GEORGE  UL         The  Case  ofCapiain  Thtmas  Baitty:,        ^S6 


You  don't  understand  me ;  when  the  con- 
tract was  renewed  a  second  time,  was  it  pre- 
vious to  his  compounding  the  penalties,  for 
the  second  prosecution,  or  after? — The  iist 
contract  was  after  he  had  compounded  the 
penalties. 

Give  an  account  of  compounding  the  pe- 
nalties.— He  had  several  times  petitioned  the 
board  of  directors,  acknowledging  himself  in 
the  wrong,  and  would  have  submitted  entirely 
to  their  Humanity,  or  goodness  towards  him ; 
the  prosecution  was  ordered  to  be  carried  on, 
and  it  was  brought  into  court,  and  I  had  five 
witnesses  ready  to  convict  him,  when  it  was 
all  on  a  sudden  compounded  for  100/.  though 
he  was  charged  with  fifty  breaches :  and,  after 
that  composition  of  the  penalties,  the  contract 
was  rencTi-ed  again,  and  he  still  serves  Green- 
wich Hospital. 

Whellier  there  were  not  two  of  the  same 
name  concerned  ? — Father  and  son. 

Distinguish  when  the  contracts  were  made, 
who  were  prosecuted,  the  father  or  the  son? — 
I  believe  the  &ther  and  the  son  were  the 
tome ;  for  my  part,  I  could  nevar  distinguish 
the  principal;  the  son  took  upon  him  the 
contract  the  last  time,  in  his  own  name,  I  be^ 
lifcve. 

In  whose  name  was  it?— They  were  both 
Earned  Peter. 

Were  they  both  joined  in  it? — ^In  fact,  I 
believe  tiiey  were ;  after  they  had  compound- 
ed the  penalties,  the  contract  was  put  up 
aeain,  and  Mr.  Mellish  proposed ;  I  objected 
then,  and  hoped,  and  entreated  the  board  that 
they  would  not  deal  any  more  with  a  person 
♦rho  had  been  convict^  of  fraud,  and  after- 
wards compounded  the  p.enalties:  I  addressed 
inyself  to  Mr.  Marsh,  who  had  been  a  com- 
Aussioner  of  victualling,  and  asked  him,  if  at 
the  victualling  board,  a  hop  contractor,  that 
had  cheated  tnem,  had  not  been  excepted  by 
public  advertisement? 

But  we  shall  hear  that  from  him.— The 
eontract  was .  renewed  again  with  the  very 
person. 

At  that  lime?— In  March,  1778. 

Q.  to  Mr.  Ibbeisan.  What  was  the  next 
time  to  that,  after  the  man  was  convicted, 
that  the  contract  was  renewed?— -4.  Those 
have  been  yearly  contracts;  the  second  time 
Was  m  March,  1777. 

0.  to  Captain  Baillie.  What  is  the  date  of 
the  conviction  ?— J.  June,  1776,  he  was  con- 
victed in  the  ten  penalties. 

Does  any  thing  appear  in  the  books,  rela^ 
tive  to  that  conviction,  since  the  time  you 
have  read,  and  before  the  time  you  are  coins 
to  read .?— Yes,  there  does.  , 

I  beg  that  may  be  first  stated.- Mr. 
Ihbetson  reads :  "  On  the  12th  of  June,  1776, 
the  solicitor,  by  his  letter  of  this  date,  ac- 
midnted  the  board^  that  in  consequence  of 
their  directions,  two  actions  had  been  brought 
against  the  contractors  for  siipplying  the  Hos- 
pital with  butcher^  meat,  for  having  served 
bull  beef,  and  bulUtag  beef,  instead  of , good 


fat  ox  beef,  agreeable  to  contract ;  one  of  the 
actions  on  the  former  contiact,  the  other  on 
the  last ;  that,  by  advice  of  counsel,  the  action 
on  the  last  contract  only  was  thought  proper 
to  be  pfoceeded  upop;  in  consequence  of 
which.  It  was  brought  on  to  a  trial,  befote  lord 
Mansfield  and  a  special  jury,  when  a  verdict 
was  given  for  the  Hospital,  of  100/.  besides 
costs  of  suit,  and  costs  of  the  special  jury ;  it 
was  then  immediately  ordered,  that  he  bo 
prosecuted  for  the  penalties  on  the  other  con- 
tract. iDtii  March,  1777,  present  sir  Charles 
Hardy,  captain  Hood,  sir  John  Major,  Mr. 
Hicks,  sir  Peter  Dennis,  &c,  proposals  Were 
given  in  for  supplying  the  Hospital  with 
butcher's  meat,  and  Peter  Mellish,  jun.  th6 
present  contractor,  havine  offered  to  do  it  for 
1/.  18<.  per  hundred  weight,  his  proposal  waft 
found  to  be  considerably  the  lowest,  and  was 
therefore  accepted." 

Was  that  Mr.  Mellish,  jun.  the  prekint  eon- 
tractor,  the  same  Mr.  Mellish  who  had  been 
convicted  of  the  fraud  upon  the  Hospital? — 
I  believe  it  is  the  same  Mr.  Mellish. 

Does  any  objection  appear  to  have  beerL 
made  ? — ^I  was  not  present  at  the  board ;  there 
does  not  appear  to  be  any  by  these  mimites;  f. 
have  brougnt  the  propoMils  hither,  there  were 

Eroposals,  and  here  they  are,  in  the  ori- 
,  as  presented  to  the  board  of  directors  ^ 
tne  from  Peter  Mi^ish,  which  is  the 
father,  his  offer  was,  for  twelve  Aipnths,  at  54^ 
and  4d.  a  hundred  weight.  Mr.  Peter  Mel- 
lish, junior's,  proposal,  at  the  same  time,  was 
S2s.  per  hundred  weignt. 

Were  there  only  those  two  that  sent  bfop«>. 
sals  ? — ^There  was  no  otiier  sent  proposals. 

This  was  in  March,  1777  ?— Yes. 

Has  this  contract  been  since  renewed  with 
this  Mr.  Mellish  f — I  believe  it  has.  t  Utank 
he  is  the  present  contractor.  On  the  4th  of 
March,  1778,  one  proposal  only  being  given 
in,  by  Mr.  Peter  Melush,  for  supplymg  the 
Hospital  with  butcher's  meat,  oncred  at 
1/.  lis.  6d.  per  hundred  weight,  his  proposal 
,  was  accepted. 

I  understood  then  from  you,  that  this  con^ 
tract  was  renewed  in  March,-  1777,  and  in 
March,  1778,  with  Mr.  Mellish,  junior,  the 
same  person  that  had  been  convicted  in  ten 
penalties,  and  afterwards  compounded  100/. 
for  the  second  time  ? — I  am  pretty  certain  it 
is  the  same  person ;  the  solicitor  will  be  able 
to  explain  that ;  but  I  think  it  is  certainly  the 
same  man  that  has  been  contracted  with  three 
times  running,  and  who  is  the  present  cott* 
tractor. 

Have  you,  in  yoiirbooks,  any  entry -of  the 
contract  upon  which  he  was  prosecuted?— I 
have  one  of  the  original  contracts  upon  which 
he  was  prosecuted ;  this  is  the  original  coti- 
tract  that  was  made  with  the  butcher,  to  com^. 
menceonthe  1st  of  April,  1776,  it  is  dated 
the  15th  of  March,  1775. 

Who  are  the  parties  ?— Between  Peter  MeK 
lish,  the  younger,  on  one  part,  and  sirCharM 
Hardy,  knt.  &c. 


1573         r^pMng  the  Roynl  Jfotfitat  at  Gfeetmich,        A.  D.  177^> 


tl^ 


See  how  the  penalties  are.— That  if  any  of 
the  lands  or  sorts  of  meat  aforesaid,  so  to  be 
deliTered,  shall,  in  the  jndgment  of  the 
steward,  orxlerk  of  the  cheque,  be  deficient  in 
weight  or  goodness,  or  not  cut  as  the  same 
ought  to  be,  that  then  it  shall  be  lawful  to 
cause  all  such  meat  to  be  surveyed  by  the 
captain  and  lieutenant  whosoever  it  shall  be 
to  do  the  duty  of  the  week ;  and,  if  disap- 
proved of  on  such  survey,  so  often  as  they 
ihall  neglect  to  cut  up  the  meat  as  agreed 
tipon,  to  nay  10/.  for  each,  or  every  breach  or 
de&ult,  that  shall  happen  in  ^e  performing 
this  contract. 

Is  there  not  a  general  penalty  of  SOO/.  ? — 
That  is  in  a  bond,  which  bears  date  the  same 
day,  the  15th  of  March  ;  the  bond  is  \a  the 
Sum  of  SCO/,  for  the  fulfilling  his  contract. 

Whether  or  not  there  were  bonds  general- 
ly ^en  by  the  butcher,  who  had  the  con- 
tract made  to  him,  before  that  bond ;  whe- 
ther it  was  usual  in  your  memory,  to  have 
those  bonds  ? — I  believe  it  wa2?,  I  cannot  speak 
positively. 

Whether  or  not,  since  these  complaints 
have  been  made,  and  the  butcher  has  been 
fined,  and  there  has  been  a  detection  of  this 
VObiiny,  the  Hospital  has  been  well  served  ? 
«— With  respect  to  these  bonds  having  been 
wnially  given,  I  see  by  a  notation  I  have  made, 
tnaking  a  little  abstract  of  the  contracts  made 
Ibr  some  yean  back,  I  Se^  in  lt74,  when  he 
was  contracted  with,  that  it  is  expressly  men- 
tioned in  the  minutes,  that  care  should  be 
taken,  that  he  gave  the  customary  security : 
urhetfaer  the  Hospital  has  been  well  served 
jobce  the  butcher  has  been  convicted,  or  com- 
promised the  other  acUon,  I  can't  say ;  I  be- 
fieve'  it  will  appear  there  have  been  ho  com- 
plaints, at  least^  I  have  heard  none;  but 
ftntst  beg  to  refer  your  lordships  to  the  mi- 
liiaxT  o&er  there. 

WiA  regard  to  the  notices  that  were  given 
hy  advertisement,  what  time  is  usually  given 
for  those  advertisements,  for  persons  to  deli- 
ver in  their  proposals  ? — It  is  sometimes  ad- 
irertised  kmger,  sometimes  shorter,  just  aB  it 
happens ;  generally  a  week's  notice  is  given, 
aaia  my  derk  has  it  in  direction  to  put  it  in 
iiftost  of  the  morning  papen ;  and  if  it  is  a 
contract  for  woollen  or  linen  cloth,  where 
pieople  may  propose  out  of  the  country,  there 
tre  give  lon^  notice,  but  for  the  butcher,  we 
gener^ly  give  about  a  week's  notice* 

Were  not  tho&e  advertisements  inserted  by 
the  order  of  the  court  of  directors  ? — ^Yes ;  the 
steward  generally  represents  that  a  cohtract 
is  near  expiring,  and  then  the  board  of  direc- 
tots  order  it  to  be  advertised.  I  see  the  no- 
tice *for  lt78.  **  On  the  «lst  of  February  1778, 
upon  a  letter  from  the  steward,  wherein  he 
ineiitioned  that  the  butcher's  contract  would 
expire  at  the  efid  of  Maith.  Ordered,  that 
BOtice  be  given  in  tlie  new»)apers  as  usual, 
ftr  such  persons  as  may  be  wilfing  to  contract, 
ke.  to  grtre  lA  their  proposals  on  Wednesday 


Does  it  appear  on  what  day  of  the  week 
that  was } — It  was  on  Saturday  the  Slst.  . 

So  that  the  directions  were  on  the  Satur- 
day, that  the  proposals  should  be  Made  on  the 
Wednesday  se'ennight ;  does  it  appear  how 
soon  that  advertisement  was  put  into  the  pa^ 
per  ? — ^We  have  nothing  here  that  wiU  shew 
that,  without  referring  to  the  paper. 

How  long  has  Mr.  Peter  Mellish  and  hit 
father  been  contracted  with? — I  find  in  the 
year  17C4,  one  Samuel  Mellish  was  the  con- 
tractor;  in  1765,  a  Mr.  Land;  in  1766,  a  Mr« 
Preddy ;  and  in  1767,  he  only  contracted  for 
six  months  at  a  time ;  in  1768,  comes  Mr. 
Pel^r  Mellish,' whether  he  is  the  father  or  the 
son,  it  does  not  appear^  he  has  it  for  that 
year;  then  Mr.  Preddy  comes  again,  and  in 
September,  1769^  Peter  Mellish  is  contracted 
with,  and  again  m  September,  1770-  in  Oc- 
tober, 1771,  he  is  contracted  with,  and  the 
Mellishes  have  had  it  fi-om  that  time,  without 
any  persons  besides  intervening ;  there  is  one 
year  that  I  have  not  eot,  which  is  in  1771,  and 
whether  it  was  this  Mr.  Mellish  or  not,  I  don't 
khow ;  but  he  seems  to  go  regularly  hack  as 
far  as  1771. 

When  was  Preddy  ?— The  last  of  Preddy  is 
the  15th  of  March,  1769,  he  contracted  fof 
six  months,  arid  then  Mr.  Peter  Mellish  takes, 
it  up  the  other  six  months.  In  1771,  it  doe^ 
not  appear  who  was  tiie  contractor,  but  other- 
wise Peter  Mellish,  either  father  or  son,  seem 
to  have  had  it  from  Sept.  1769,  regularly. 

For  how  many  years  back  does  it  appear 
that  no  othei^  persons  offered,  except  the 
father  and  son?— We  don't  ascertain  the 
number  of  proposals  unon  our  minutes  with- 
out lookine  back,  and  endeavouring  to  find 
the  proposals  themselves. 

Because  you  mentioned  Mr.  Mellidh,  the 
fother  and  son,  made  different  proposals  ?-^In 
1764, 1  have  made  notations,  that  there  were 
four  proposals  ;  in  1765  there  were  several. 

Read  the  names  of  the  persons  who  were 
present  in  March,  1777,  when  the  contract  ^vas 
renewed ;  what  notice  was  there  given  to  the 
Hospital,  and  entered  in  their  books,  that  the 
penalties  were  compounded  ?— ^It  was  from  a 
letter  of  the  solicitor's ;  the  solicitor  informed 
the  board,  immediately  after  the  actioh,  of  the 
event  of  it 

Crhe  Solicitor's  letter  read,  dated  the  Slst  of 
May,  1777.) 

Lord  Fortesctte.  After  having  premised 
that,  as  this  afi^r  is  likely  to  Be  a  pretty 
considerable  length,  I  am  the  last  lord  in  this 
House  that  ^omd  desire  to  procrastinate  it ; 
I  would  ask  you  after  tiiete  two  Mr.  Mel- 
lishes Were  out,  after  these  things  being 
proved,  whether  or  Hot  there  was  any  feu  It ; 
or  on  the  contrary,  whether  the  other  person 
who  was  takeA  in  upon  the  Mellishes  being 
put  out,  to  perform  the  contract  of  the  Hos- 
pital, did  or  did  not  serve  them  with  meat,  so 
as  to  give  general  satisfaction? — ^The  Mel- 
Ibhea  were  not  put  but. 


199] 


18  GEORGE  tiL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie,         [14(> 


Were  ihcy  never  put  out  at  all  ? — ^Not  since 
those  prosecutions. 

Was  there  no  pen>on  ever  put  in? — ^No; 
there  was  on  the  dlst  of  May  1777,  tliat  Mr. 
Bverest  had  commission  given  to  compromise 
it  on  the  llth  of  June,  1777.  [A  letter  of  thio 
date,  firom  the  soUcitor,  was  read,  representing, 
that  the  clause  a^unstthe  butcher  was  com* 
promised  in  court  J 

Were  both  the  actions  brought  upon  the 
same  contract? — ^No ;  they  must  have  been 
upon  different  contracts,  because  they  were  at 
different  periods  of  time. 

Read  the  names  of  the  fjersons  who  were 
present  at  the  renewal  of  the  contract  in 
1777. — Sir  Charles  Hardy  the  governor,  cap- 
tain Hood,  the  treasurer,  sir  John  Major,  Mr. 
Hicks,  sir  Peter  Dennis,  Mr.  Barker,  Mr. 
Marsh,  Mr.  Wells,  Mr.  James,  and  the  rev. 
Mr.  Cooke. 

That  was  after  the  first  conviction  ? — ^Yes. 

Captain  Baillie  called  in  again. 

Who  first  Informed  you  about  the  pensioners 
"being  supplied  with  bull  beef? — ^Alexander 
Mdbre,  the  cook's  mate. 

What  month  was  tliat  in  ? — In  the  month 
of  June  1775. 

Are  you  sure  it  was  in  the  month  of  June 
that  Mr.  Moore  first  told  you  of  the  bull  beef? 
^I  have  it  m  my  minu^s;  I  carried  the 
butcher's  servants  and  the  cook  before  justice 
Pell,  where  they  confessed  on  the  7th  ot  June, 
1775. 

My  ouestion  is,  who  first  informed  you 
about  tne  bull  beef?  You  say  Alexander 
Moore  did  ? — ^Yes. 

In  what  month  was  it  he  gave  vou  this  first 
information  ^ — It  was  either  in  the  latter  end 
of  May,  or  the  be^ning  of  June,  1775,  but  I 
believe  in  the  begmning  of  June,  because  I 
see  the  affidavits  are  sworn  on  the  9th. 

When  was  it  you  acquainted  the  directors 
of  it.?— I  thought  it  my  duty  to  complain  first 
to  the  governor  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  and  I 
laid  authenticated  copdes  of  the  depositions 
before  the  eovemor  of  the  Hospital  immedi- 
ately after  3iey  were  sworn. 

When  did  you  lay  them  before  the  direc- 
tors ? — ^I  did  not  lay  them  before  the  direc- 
tors; they  were  laid  before  the  governor;  I 
desired  him  to  present  them  to  the  directors. 

The  following  fourteen  Questions  were  asked 
by  the  Earl  of  Sandwich. 

Did  you  examine  William  Fleoe? — I  be- 
lieve he  was  examined  upon  that  business. 

Did  you  examine  him? — ^I  believe  1  had 
someiconversation  with  him  upon  the  subject. 

Whether  his  examination  at  any  time  was 
taken  in  writing  by  you^  or  in  your  presence  ? 
-~I  don't  recollect  that  it  was ;  I  am  not  cer- 
tain! I  don't  speak  positively ;  I  had  some 
conversation  with  all  the  butcher's  servants 
upon  that  occasion  concerning  bull  beef. 

But  cannot  you  say  positively  wheUier  this 
man's  examination  was  taken  m  writing  be- 


fore you  or  not? — I  cannot  say;   there  were 
three  of  them  that  were. 

Did  you  never  give  the  examination  im 
writine  to  any  person,  and  to  what  person  ? — 
1  don^  recoUect  that  I  ever  gave  it  to  any 
person  whatever ;  I  remember  very  well  such 
a  man  was  upon  the  list  of  e\idences ;  but 
that  man,  when  it  came  to  the  day  of  trial, 
he  was  not  to  be  found ;  hp  went  out  of  the 
way. 

That  is  not  the  question,  it  is  a  plain  ques- 
tion, and  I  think  I  put  it  very  clearly ;  you 
doubt  whether  any  examination  was  taken 
before  you ;  in  order  to  prove  whether  it  was 
taken  before  you  or  not,  1  desire  you  will  here 
say,  whether  you  did  give  to  any  body  the 
examination  ot  Fleoe  ? — I  cannot  say  positive^ 
ly  whetlier  I  did  or  no ;  I  had  some  conver- 
sation with  the  man  upon  the  subject,  and  I 
might  have  taken  some  examination  from 
them  all.  I  had,  as  I  said,  ^y^  evidences  at 
first,  and  they  all  went  off  except  two ;  1  had 
the  examination  of  one  Payne  and  of  one 
Largent. 

I  stick  to  my  question,  to  which  I  expect  an 
answer,  whether  you  did  or  not  lay  the  exa- 
mination of  Fleoe  before  any  particular  per- 
son ? — I  cannot  answer  that  Question,  because 
I  don't  remember  it ;  I  had  nve  upon  my  list 
at  first,  and  they  diminished  away  to  two; 
one  man  was  going  to  Holland,  another  to 
America,  I  stopped  him,  and  got  his  exami- 
nation. 

I  will  refresh  your  memory  farther;  did 
you  ever  give  the  examination  of  Fleoe  to  the 
solicitor  of  tlie  Hospital? — ^I  believe  that  Mr. 
Kerr  might  have  taken  that  man's  evidence, 
but  not  I. 

Did  Mr.  Kerr  take  it  in  your  presence? — ^I 
don't  think  he  did,  1  don't  know. 

That  is  not  an  answer  to  my«question  >  my   . 
question  is,  did  you  or  not  give  it  to  the  soli-.  ' 
citor  of  the  Hospital? — I  cannot  tell  vou;  I 
save  him  all  the  information  I  coula  upon 
uat  business. 

Upon  what  day  did  you  give  the  solicitor 
of  the  Hospital  all  the  information  that  you 
could  give  nim  ? — ^At  different  times. 

When  did  you  give  him  the  last  informa* 
tion.^ — ^I  cannot  remember  such  a  thing  as 
that.  . 

Do  you  recollect  when  the  cause  was  tried  ? 
— I  remember  tlie  day  of  the  trial  perfectly 
well.  1 

Was  tlie  information  and  the  examinatioii 
you  gave  to  the  solicitor  of  the  Hospital  given 
to  him  the  day  before  the  trial,  or  was  it  not? 
— I  don't  know  on  what  day  it  was  given  to 
him ;  I  declare,  I  gave  him  all  the  informa- 
tion I  could  collect,  and  I  was  at  great  expence 
in  collecting  that  information. 

[Capt^  Baillie  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Marsh  called  in. 

Whether  you  have  not  been  in  the  victual- 
linz  office,  as  a  commissioner  ? — I  have. 
Whether,  in  the  victualling  office^  there  ar^ 


141]  rapeciing  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenimch         A.  D.  I778. 


[f4« 


cases  of  persons  haTine  been  guilty  of  breaches 
of  contract,  and  have  been  excepted  to  by  ad- 
vertisement ? — ^Not  while  I  was  in  Uie  victual- 
ting. 

Was  there  such  an  instance  in  the  case  of 
an  hop  contractor? — ^I  have  heard  of  such  an 
instance,  but  I  don't  know  it  of  my  own  know- 
ledge. 

Has  there  happened  any  breaches  of  con- 
tnct,  in  the  victualling-office,  since  you  have 
been  there  ? — There  has. 

ABd  have .  the  persons  guilty  of  those 
breaches  been  employed  again } — ^They  have. 

In  what  instances? — ^A  butcher  we  con- 
tracted with  to  serve  the  fleet  at  Chatham  and 
the  Nore ;  he  sent  inferior  oxen,  our  officer 
there  refused  them,  and  agreeable  to  our  order 
and  the  terms  of  our  contract,  he  went  to 
Chatham  market  immediately  and  purchased 
meat  at  an  extraordinary  rate,  and  made  him 
pvy  the  difference. 

And  that  very  person  was  employed  again  ? 
—Yes,  upon  a  public  advertisement ;  he  was 
the  lowest  tenderer. 

What  were  the  terms  of  your  advertisement  ? 
—Advertisements  for  those  that  would  tender 
to  serve  the  Hospital  with  ox  meat. 

Are  there  any  expressions  in  them  that 
mentions,  that  you  engage  the  lowest  bidder  ? 
— «No,  that  is  understood  m  course. 

Was  there  any  thing  ^eivourable  in  the  cir- 
comstance  of  that  man,  who  had  been  guilty 
•f  that  breach  of  contract,  that  had  induced 
you  to  renew  it  again  with  him  I — ^We  punish- 
ed bim  in  the  first  instance ;  he  performed  his 
contract  very  well  afterwards. 

This  instance  that  you  mention  of  the  hop 
contractor  ? — ^I  know  nothing  of  that  of  my 
own  knowledge ;  I' was  a  commissioner  of  the 
victualling  about  nine  years,  and  nothing  of 
the  kind  happened  in  my  time. 

Do  you  recollect  to  have  heard  at  what 
time  the  affisdr  of  the  hop  contractor  happen- 
ed ? — ^I  have  heard  of  it,  but  never  heara  now 
many  years  it  was  before  my  time. 

Have  there  been  many  instances  in  which 
tiiere  have  been  breaches  of  contract,  in  the 
victualling-office  ? — ^Not  a  great  many,  but  the 
iontiactor  was  ^nerally  punished  in  tnat  way. 

Do  you  imagine  it  is  very  easy  to  convict  a 
contractor  that  is  guilty  of*^  breaches  of  con- 
tract?— ^I  think  so. 

Don't  you  think  it  is  possible  for  a  contrac- 
tor to  be  guilty  of  breaoies  of  contract,  with- 
•ut  being  found  out  and  detected  ? — ^Not  in 
the  victualHne-office. 

Why  so  ?— -Because  we  receive  live  oxen  at 
the  victualling-office ;  the  contractor  had 
drove  down  live  oxen  to  Chatham^  and  they 
were  judged,  by  the  officer  there,  inferior  to 
the  contract 

I  am  onlv  asking  in  general,  whether  it  does 
not  very  often  happen,  according  to  what  you 
must  know  of  that  business,  imX  contractors 
are  guilty  of  breaches  of  contract,  without  it 
being  possible  to  prove  it  in  a  court  of  Justice  ? 
—I  never  knew  an  iostanqe  of  it. 


Did  ytm  never  hear  complaints  of  bad  pro- 
vision from  the  victualling  office,  being  fur- 
nished on  account  of  any  ships  ? — I  have  not ; 
partial  complaints  there  ever  were  and  ever 
will  be,  in  so  great  a  concern  as  that  of  vic- 
tualling his  majesy's  navv ;  partial  complaints 
there  alvrays  were,  ana  for  various  reasons 
which  I  can  acquaint  this  House  with. 

Do  you  believe  th<iy  were  always  partial, 
bad  reasons  ? — ^Partial  reasons  they  must  be ; 
but  in  the  general  we  have  been  served  well, 
and  the  navy  has  been  served  well. 

But  I  ask  ;]^ou,  whether  it  is  possible  always^ 
with  great  facility,  to  bring  a  contractor  ta 
conviction? — ^With  respect  to  what  has  been 
said  about  the  commissioners  of  the  victual- 
line,  captain  Baillie  has  gone  out  of  his  road^ 
ana  charged  the  commissioners  of  the  victual- 
line  with  providing  bad  meat  for  the  navy ; 
ana  I  take  ui)on  me  to  say  it  is  false. 

If  the  victualling  office  had  ordered  a  pro- 
secution against  any  man  for  a  breach  of  con- 
tract, do  you  think  that  they  would,  during  a 
prosecution,  enter  into  another  contract  with 
him } — I  mean  that  after  an  advertisement  of 
the  lowest  tenderer  proved  to  be  a  Mr.  Mel- 
lish,  or  any  body  else  who  had  been  supposed 
guilty  of  fraud,  or  had  been  guiltjr  of  fraud,  if 
no  other  person  offered,  and  the  king's  service 
would  have  suffered,  as  it  must  have  done  for 
want  of  meat,  I  certainly  should  have  taken 
Mr.  Melllsh. 

Would  you  at  the  victualling-office  renew  a 
contract  with  a  man  who,  under  a  prosecution 
ordered  by  the  victualling  office,  had  been  con- 
victed?— Certainly  I  should,  if  the  service 
would  have  suffered  by  not  accepting  him ;  if 
there  was  no  other  tenderer  but  himself,  the 
service  might  Have  suffered  for  want  of  flesh. 

Would  you  have  taken  any  means  of  adver- 
tising, or  otherwise,  to  have  got  proposals 
from  some  other  persons,  who  were  not  under 
that  predicament? — ^Not  af^r  public  adver- 
tisement for  a  week  or  a  fortnight  before :  I 
should  think  it  would  be  to  no  purpose ;  out 
if  there  had  any  other  persons  offered,  I 
should  have  proposed  to  have  taken  one, 
though  he  mignt  nave  been  something  higher 
in  his  demands  than  he. 

If  Mr.  MelHsh  had  been  excepted  in  the  ad-" 
vertisement,  as  a  person  with  whom  the  Hos- 
pital would  not  treat,  might  not  other  persons 
have  offered? — I  do  not  know  whetner  we 
might  not  look  upon  it  as  dangerous  to  say 
that  of  a  man  in  public  print. 

You  will  do  well  to  re-consider  the  nature 
of  the  question,  and  the  answer  you  have 
given  the  question ;  whether,  if  you  had  ex- 
cepted by  name  this  Mr.  Mellish,  as  a  person 
you  did  not  choose  to  deal  with,  other  con- 
tractors might  not  be  expected  ? — I  cannot  say' 
as  to  that  question  f  if^  no  other  contractor 
tendered,  in  consequence  of  a  general  adver- 
tisement^ I  should  not  have  thought  of  adver- 
tising again. 

I  ask  you,  if  you  had  advertised  with  a  spe- 
cial exception  of  Mr.  Mellish,  whether  some. 


143} 


18  GiSORGE  lit.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thmas  BaiOie^         [144 


otliier  persons  voi^t  not  have  offered  ? — ^No 
l^h  exception  has  ever  heen  made  dunng  my 
tune. 

You  are  a  commissioner  of  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital ? — ^Yes,  and  of  the  navy^ 

)iow  came  you  not  to  make  it  the  secon4 
time? — Because  I  apprehend  the  Hospital 
wpuld  have  suffered  for  want  of  flesh. 

Do  you  apprehend  then  that  there  is  but 
one  person  m.  this  great  metropolis  that  is  ca- 
pable of  contracting  with  the  Hospital  for 
nveat? — It  was  evident  there  was  not;  for  no- 
body tendered  but  the  father,  or  uncle,  and 
son,  I  don't  know  which. 

Did  you  make  the  trial,  by  excepting  Mel- 
lish,  wnether  any  body  else  would  offer? — 
When  it  was  published,  nobody  tendered  but 
the  two  Mellisnes. 

Do  you  really  believe  that  there  was  no 
6ther  person  in  the  city  of  London  capable  of 
undertaking  the  contract  but  Mr.  ISfellish  ? — 
tt  appears  to  me  firom  consequences,  that  no- 
body cares  to  deal  with  us  hardly. 

Are  you  a  commissioner  of  the  navy  at  t^is 
time  ?— I  am. 

I  believe  you  cannot  be  so  easily  imposed 
Vpon  as  to  the  nature  and  quality  of  meat 
which  is  sent  to  the  victualling-office,  because 
they  are  delivered  alive ;  did  you  say  that? — I 
said  that. 

Whether  any  man  that  is  not  accustomed 
to  look  at  beasts,  and  to  know  the  quality  of 
them,  may  not  be  exceedingly  imposed  upon 
in  beasts  alive  ?  I  have  always  understood  so, 
but  it  may  be  otherwise,  perhaps  ? — We  have 

E roper  officers,  an  experienced  master  butcher, 
esides  other  officers,  to  view  the  beasts  be- 
fore we  suffer  them  to  be  killed.  The  concern 
is  very  great  in  the  victualling-office ;  there 
^  are  4  or  5,0Q0  oxen  killed  in  a  winter ;  they 
4re  drove  into  the  office  alive;  they  stand 
tliere  24  hours  to  cool ;  they  are  then  examin- 
ed.by  a  master  butcher,  and  by  tlie  office^  of 
the  cutting-house ;  and  then  if  the  master 
butcher  and  the  officer  of  the  cutting-house 
approve,  they  kill  the  beasts;  those  they  do 
not  approve  of  are  not  taken;  after  they  are 
killeOy  they  are  cut  up;   ^he  four  quarters  are 

Kinto  a  scale,  'md  if  they  don*t  weigh  seven 
dred  weight,  we  don't  take  them. 

If  no  person  ofifered  but  Mr.  Mellish,  could 
they  not  have  entered  into  ^  contract  for  a 
shorter  ti^ie,  and  so  have  got  another  contrac- 
tpr  for  the  remainder  of  the  year  ? — ^I'he  board 
were  of  opinion  that  it  would  be  best  to  con- 
tract for  a  whole  year,  for  fear  provisions  sliould 
be  dearer;  that  was  the  reason  of  contracting 
for  a  year;  or  else,  generally,  the  conjtract  is 
for  six  months. 

Do  you,  as  a  director  of  Greenwich  Hospi- 

a  recollect  what  number  of  men  are  victual- 
there?--*!  believf  about  2,000,  but  I  can- 
oot  say. 

Yctu  don't  know,  do  you,  that  one  half  of 
them  are  paid  money  instead  of  having  previ- 
aions?-^!  doa't  know  the  nupber. 
In  your  advertisement  fpr  Qreenwid)  H)o4" 


1 


pita],  what  time  do  you  give  for  delivering  ii| 
of  proposals? — ^The  secretary  of  the  Hospital 
can  tell  the  time  best. 

What  time  do  they  give  at  the  victuallings 
office  ?^-Generally  three  weeks  an  advertise- 
ment for  a  certain  number  of  oxen,  2  or  3,000 
to  be  killed  at  such  a  time. 

I  understand  you  that  the  reason  you 
thought  it  was  allowable  to  renew  the  contract 
with  a  man  that  had  been  psoved  tp  be  guilty 
of  a  fraud  was,  that  there  was  no  other  person 
offered,  and  it  might  be  necessary  for  the  ser- 
vice to  deal  with  that  man,  because  no  other 
offered? — Yes. 

And  you  ^so  said,  if  I  don't  mistake,  that 
you  behoved  no  other  person  would  have  offer- 
ed, but  Mr.  Mellish,  if  the  advertisement  had 
been  issued? — ^Nobody  else  had  tendered  to 
serve  the  Hospital  for  a  considerable  time. 

Mr.  Mellisn  is  the  contracting  butcher  for 
the  navy  too,  I  believe? — ^Yes,  he  isgenerally, 
but  not  always. 

You  can  nnd  somebody  else  for  th^  navv? 
--Sometimes ;  but,  in  general,  he  and  his  fau- 
mily  have  been  the  contractors. 

You  have  also  said,  as  I  understand,  tha}, 
though  you  had  fouud  tliat  this  man  had  bcea 
guilty,  or  should  be  suilty,  of  a  breach  of  con- 
tract, that  you  would  be  obliged  to  take  firom 
him  because  nobody  ebe  tendered? — ^Wq 
could  not  of  a  private  butcher  find  meat  suffi* 
cient  to  feed  2,000  men,  therefore  it  was  fof 
the  benefit  of  the  service :  I  did  not  say  hf 
was  the  only  person  did  offer. 

Has  any  attempt  been  made  to  find  aaj^ 
other  ? — By  public  advertisement. 

Any  othier  way  ? — I  know  of  no  other. 

With  regard  to .  the  complaints  that  haa^ 
been  made,  I  don't  mean  by  ai^  individual, 
captain  Baillie,  relative  to  the  victualling-i 
office,  that  Greenwich  liospital  has  nothing 
to  do  with :  have  you  had  no  complaints  of  the 
captains  of  the  navy,  relative  to  the  victual* 
ling.office  ? — There  ever  has  been  partial  comr 
plauits  while  I  was  a  commissioner  of  the  vic- 
tualling ;  since  which^  I  have  heard  of  none^ 
but  the  partial  complaints. 

Explain  what  you  mean  by  partial  com^ 
plaints. — I  mean  of  a  cask  of  beef  turning  out 
Dad,  or  such  a.  thing,  there  can  be  no  bulR>eef 
with  us. 

Has  there  not  been  general  complaintf 
s^gainst  the  provisions  flu-nished  by  Mr.  MeU 
lish,  from  the  captains  of  the  navy  at  Ply* 
mouth? — ^Not  that  I  know  of,  I  am  not  ^ 
commissioner  of  the  victualling. 

The  Earl  q{ Sandwich,  Do  you  know  whether 
last  year,  when  the  contractor  at  Plymouth  had 
refused  to  fulfil  his  contract,  Mr.  Mellish  was 
not  called  upon,  and  went  down,  and  was  the 
only  man  that  could  supply  the  fleet? — I  heard 
so;  your  lordship  knows  I  am  not  at  the  vic- 
tualling board. 

Is  not  Mr.  Mellish  one  of  the  largest,  per- 
haps the  ereatest  dealer  in  live  cattle  in  ^ig- 
land? — ^We  all  look  upon  him  to  be  the  greaV 
est  dealer  m  live  cattle. 


145]        rapecHng  the  Rftyal  Hospital  at  Crreetimch.        A.  D.  1778. 


[146 


Is  not  the  person  who  has  the  most  of  it  in 

fab  possession,  more  likely  to  serve  you  well, 

than  a  person  who  is  not  so  largely  concerned? 

—Undoubtedly. 

Do  you  imag^e,  that,  if  during  the  prosecu- 
tioD  that  this  Mr.  Mellish  was  under^  there 
had  been  an  aikertisement  for  other  contracts, 
^fliM«ng  Mr.  Melii&l],  o^ered,  would  that 
hare  prevented  any  other  contractors  offering  ? 
—I  cannot  answer  for  that,  because  we  have 
faad  public  advertisements,  and  no  butchers 
tendered  to  serve  us. 

Do  you  imagine,  that  if  any  other  person 
had  been  commissioned  with  an  advance  of 
public  money,  and  to  have  gone  to  Smithfield 
and  boi^t  up  100,  or  200  txead  of  cattle,  as 
Tou  bad  wanted,  don't  you  think  that  would 
be  a  means  of  flumishingthe  Hospital  as  cheap 
as  Mr.  Mellish  ? — ^I  cannot  say  but  it  would. 

I  understand  you  are  one  ot  the  directors  of 
Greenwich  Hospital? — Yes. 

As  sudh,  whether,  when  it  appeared  by  the 
ver^ct  given,  that  fraud  had  been  committed 
in  this  contract,  you  thought  yourself,  as  one 
of  the  directors,  not  bound  to  endeavour  that 
the  like  fraud  should  not  be  committed  again? 
^As  tbe  Hospital  was  in  immediate  want  of 
meat  for  a  vast  number  of  men,  it  did  not 
strike  me,  the  method  the  noble  lord  has 
pomted  out  now,  nor  do  I  know  whether  it 
was  practicable.  ' 

As  a  public  man,  did  not  you  find  yourself 
hound  to  prevent  fimids  from  being  commit- 
ted? Did  you  take  care  to  prevent  such  fraud, 
when  you  made  this  contract  with  Mr.  Mel- 
lish ?->If  the  officers  do  their  duty,  who  are 
the  receiving  officers*  at  the  Hospital,  no  such 
frauds  coula  have  happened,  and  had  the 
hoard  of  directors  been  acquainted  with  it  in 
the  first  instance  when  it  happened,  we  should 
have  prevented  it  in  future. 

The  board  of  directors  knew  at  that  time 
that  such  verdict  had  been  given,  and  those 
fiauds  proved,  my  question  is,  whether  upon 
your  engagement  with  Mir.  Mellish,  any  extra- 
ordinary caution  was  taken  to  prevent  simitar 
frauds  again  ? — No  other  than  a  public  adver- 
tisement, as  I  said  before. 

Whether  or  not  there  were  not  abuses  firom 
Plymouth,  in  regard  to  the  provisions  ?  I  ap- 
prehend that  your  answer  was,  that  you  did 
pot  know  that  there  was,  but  there  was  nobody 
ui  that  part  of  the  world  who  would  undertake 
that  contract  but  Mr.  Mellish ;  as  you  have 
said  that,  I  ask  if  there  was  not  another  per- 
son that  undertook  the  contract  for  the  whole 
of  sir  Edward  Hawke*s  fleet?— I  have  told 
your  k>rdship,  tliat  I  don't  know  any  thing  of 
It,  of  my  own  knowledge. 
,  Whether  Mr.  Peter  Mellish,  senior  or  iu- 
oior,  are  really  the  same  persons  as  to  trade ; 
axe  they  partners,  or  concerned  with  one  ano- 

^?— I  don't  know;    there  was  the  father, 

«*K  ^n,and  the  uncle,  I  think  of  that  name. 

'  *  Receifiag  officers,  steward  and  clcr)^  of  the 

JMI&.  Mr.  Godby  and  MauU.    Qrig.  £d,  i 

VOL.  XXI.   '  J 


•  Do  you  really  understand  any  reason  why 
there  should  be  two  proposals  come, in  for 
Greenwich  Hospital;  one  from  Peter,  senior, 
the  other  junior? — It  is  a  common  thing  for 
contractors  to  get  a  person  to  tender  a  l^gcr 
price,  in  order  that  tne  other  may  have  it. 

Then  you  understand  that  the  offer  of  these 
two  gentlemen  to  Greenwich  Hospital  was  a 
collusion  ? — I  do. 

I  think  you  said  when  you  were  asked 
whether  Mr.  Mellish  was  not  so  large  a  dealer, 
relative  to  an  afiair  that  happened  at  Ply- 
mouth, that  there  never  was  another  man 
that  could  supply  the  navy:  you  were  asked 
whether  he  was  not  likely  to  serve  the  better 
for  dealing  more  largely,  than  a  small  dealer. 
I  ask  you  whether  there  may  be  great  incon- 
veniences arise,  for  letting  one  man  n\onopo- 
lize  all  the  contracts  of  government.^ — Mobt 
certainly. 

And  whether  it  might  not  be  much  better 
for  some  branches  of  government  to  exclude  a 
man  when  he  has  another  contract? — ^The  ser- 
vice must  be  distressed  perhaps,  without  they 
give  a  large  price,  and  even  then,  people  ten- 
der sometimes  that  are  not  equal  to  it,  and 
that  give  security. 

You  say,  one  man  monopolizing  the  whole 
is  a  great  inconvenience? — Certainly. 

Is  there  not  a  way  to  prevent  that  ? — ^In  a 
pubFic  board,  we  take  every  method  we  can  to 
prevent  it. 

You  took  no  method  to  prevent  it  ? — By  a 
public  advertisement ;  and  it  any  butcher  had 
been  sufficient  to  have  supplied  the  Hos- 
pital, I  should  have  thought  he  woulc^l  have 
offered. 

But  if  Mr.  Mellish  had  been  excepted  in  the 
advertisement? — ^The  board  were  of  opinion 
we  could  not  do  otherwise,  than  contract  with 
the  man  that  oflered ;  and  I  was  of  the  same 
opinion  with  the  board. 

You  have  said,  that  if  this  matter  had  been 
communicated  sooner  to  the  directors,  that 
they  would  have  put  a  stop  to  tliis;  what 
steps  would  they  have  taken,  different  from 
those  they  did,  when  the  man  was  convicted  ? 
— ^They  would,  I  apprehend,  have  prosecuted 
the  butcher  immeuiately,  upon  the  first  com- 
plaint. 

He  was  prosecuted. — I  did  not,  for  mj;  own 
part,  know  of  the  complaint  till  a  year  after. 

But  when  he  was  prosecuted  and  convicted, 
what  steps  did  the  court  of  directors  then  take, 
to  prevent  the'Uke  thing  happening  again?—* 
All  they  did  was,  making  a  public  advertise- 
ment. 

Was  that  anjT  thing  different  from  what 
they  had  done  before? — It  was  not. 

You  know  there  is  a  large  tjuantity  comes 
to  the  spring  markets,  at  this  time  of  the  year, 
whether  t|)6t  is  not  tlie  kind  of  cattle  that 
would  come  within  the  price  for  furnishing 
the  navy,  and  for  furnishing  Greenwich  Hos 
pital  ? — Not  for  the  navy. 

Would  it  not  for  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — I 
apprehend  it  might  for  Greenwich  Hospital,  I 


147] 


18  GEORGE  III. 


don't  know  that  they  are  confined  to  weight 
there. 

As  you  have  had  experience  in  this  matter, 
I  ask  you  for  information,  whether  you  ever 
knew  a  man  convicted  before  Mr.  MelUsh, 
upon  so  notorious  a  breach  of  contract,  as  sup^ 
plying  bull-beef,  when  his  contract  was  for 

food  fat  ox  beef ?— Nothing  of  that  kind  has 
appened  in  mv  time, 
lou  appear  here  in  a  double  capacity ;  you 
arc  a  commissioner  of  the  navy,  and  also  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  ? — A  director  of  Green- 
wich Hospital. 

As  a  director  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  do  you 
believe,  up^n  your  oath,  that  there  are  not  a 
hundred  butchers,  that  could  supply  Green- 
wich Hospital?  What  quantity  of  meat  is  eat 
at  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — I  aon*t  know  the 
quantity. 

Do  you  think  there  may  be  two  beasts' in  a 
week  ? — I  can't  speak  to  that;  there  are  offi- 
cers here  can  tell  you  the  exact  quantity. 
Who  can  inform  mc  of  that? — The  steward. 

[Mr.  Marsh  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Godby  called  in. 

You  are  steward  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  I 
believe  ? — ^I  am. 

What  is  the  quantity  of  meat  consumed  in 
the  Hospital  ?— Ahout  860lb.  a  day. 

How  many  oxen  is  that  in  a  week  ? — Three 
I  believe. 

Do  you'  believe,  upon  your  oath,  that  there 
are  not  many  butchers  that  could  undertake 
that  contract  ? — ^I  believe  there  are  some,  be- 
cause there  formerly  was  a  butcher  of  Green- 
wich offered  to  serve  Greenwich  Hospital,  and 
to  the  best  of  my  memory,  his  price  was  two 
guineas  a  hundred  weight,  which  would  be 
ftbput  6  or  700/.  a  year,  I  speak  at  a  guess, 
Hibre  than  it  is  at  present 

Must  not  he  be  a  poor  butcher  that  could 
not  supply  three  oxen  a  week  ? — At  an  exor- 
bitant price  no  doubt  they  could. 

Why  at  an  exorbitant  price  ? — A  butcher  of 
Greenwich,  who  is  now  present,  served  Green- 
wich Hospital  at  an  exorbitant  price,  and  lost 
money  by  it. 

Did  you  ever  hear  that  there  was  any  at- 
tempt made  to  get  another  butcher  to  bid 
Against  Mellish? — I  don't  know  that  there 
was.  [Mr.  Godby  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Manh  called  in  again. 

Whether  you  remember  upon  the  proposing 
to  contract  with  Mr.  Mellish,  captain  Bmllie's 
objecting  to  it  ? — ^I  don't     . 

Do  you  not  recollect  that  circumstance  that 
has  been  mentioned  by  captain  Baillie,  of 
yoitf  having  mentioned  the  case  of  an  hop 
contractor? — It  is  so  long  since,  and  I  am  at 
the  head  of  so  important  a  branch  of  business, 
that  I  cannot  recollect  sufficient  to  speak  to 
that ;  but  if  captain  Baillie  says  I  did  say  so,  I 
dare  say  I  did. 

I  mentioned  the  circumstance  of  the  hop 
contractor,  to  bring  to  your  memoiy  captain 


The  Case  nf  Captain  Thoma*  SaHlief  [14S 

Baillie's  objectioli  to  Mr.  "Mellish's  having  the 
contract — I  don't  recollect  that;  the  whol^ 
hoixd  of  directors  would  have  wished  for  any 
other  contractor. 

I  understood  from  the  minutes,  that  the 
governor  laid  these  affidavits  of  the  discovery 
of  the  bull  beef  before  the  board  of  directors  ? 
— There  were  no  other  tenderers. 

You  are  a  director  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
and  have  been  a  long  time  in  the  business  i 
if  the  contract  had  been  advertised,  with  an 
exception  to  Mr.  Mellish's  serving  the  Hos- 
pital, do  you  imagine  that  the  Hospital  would 
not  have  immediately  been  supplied  by  any 
person,  as  well  as  they  were  by  Mr.  Mellish  } 
1  have  already  said,  from  what  happened,  I 
fear  not,  because  there  was  no  other  tenderer. 
But  there  was  no  exception  made  to  Mr. 
Mellish  in  your  advertisement  ?— There  was 
not. 

If  anv  exception  had  been  made  to  them 
(the  Mellishes)  in  your  advertisement,  that 
the  contract  would  not  be  entered  into  with 
them,  whether  you  do  not  imagine  there 
would  have  been  immediately  proposals  made, 
by  which  the  Hospital  wouM  have  been  as 
well  supplied  as  it  was  by  them  ? — ^I  cannot 
speak  to  that. 

I  ask  your  opinion;  do  you  believe  this 
kii^dom  would  not  have  produced  a  person 
or  persons,  who  would  maKo  an  offer  to  sop- 
ply  Greenwich  Hospiul  with  beef  as  well 
as  Mr.  Mellish,  knowing  that  he  was  not  to 
be  treated  with  ?— I  should  suppose,  as  it  wi^ 
open  to  them,  they  might  have  tendered  if 
they  pleased. 

Your  opinion  seems  so  vague?— It  is  an 
honest  opmion  from  my  heart,  and  upon  mj 
oath.  [Mr.  Marsh  withdrew.] 

Captain  Allmright  called  in. 

Inform  the  Comnuttee  of  what  you  know 
of  there  having  been  any  mismanagement  in 
Greenwich  Hospital,  and  what  complaints  re- 
specting the  provisions  have  been  made  to 
tne  court  of  mrectors,  or  to  the  council  ?— I 
remember  many  complaints  being  made;  I 
have  been  sent  at  times  by  the  lieutenant  go- 
vernor Baillie  into  the  kitchen,  to  sec  the  re- 
ceipt of  meat,  and  to  look  at  the  quality ;  thcrt 
have  been  compbdnts,  and  there  have  been 
complaints  in  tide  hall  sometimes :  I  once  ob- 
jected to  some  meat  being  received,  because  it 
was  contrary  to  the  contract;  the  contract 
expresses,  that  the  meat  shall  be  received  in 
whole  quarters,  except  some  part  of  the  neck 
taken  off,  and  the  legs  and  shms  taken  away ; 
I  found  there  was  a  practice  of  bringing  the 
beef  into  the  Hospital,  with  the  prime  parts 
cut  out  of  the  quarters ;  the  chines,  and  great 
part  of  the  roasting  pieces  were  taken  from  it ; 
I  had  objected  to  tnat,  and  indeed,  once  in 
particular,  I  objected  to  it  to  the  steward. 
The  steward  paid  verylittie  attention  to  my 
objection ;  I  went  to  the  heutenant  eovcmor 
as  I  had  received  my  orders  from  him,  and 
told  him  thai  ther<f  WIS  little  attontioQ  p» 


ttS]        retpecAig  the  Royal  Ho^al  at  GrStnnM. .       A.  D«  1778. 


[150 


t»it;ttidtl]9lthe  vtewttd  had  received  such 

kef.  The  lieutenant   govemor,   in   oonae* 

fMDce  of  that,  ordered  me  to  go  back  min 

atd  call  a  survey  upon  it,  to  send  for  the  Seu- 

tessnt  of  the  week,  and  with  the  clerk  of  the 

diemie,  and  his  ckark,  to  survey  that  meat,  to 

oil  far  the  contract,  and  see  wnether  that  did 

not  foittd  the  receiving  such  meat.    I  did  so, 

1  ifere  my  opinion,  the  lieutenant  of  the  week 

^peed  in  -opinion  with  me;   I  asked  the 

steward's  opmion,    the  steward  would  not 

give  his  opinion ;  I  desired  him  to  go  with  me 

to  the  lieutenant  governor ;  he  absolutely  re- 

iiind  it,  and  told  me,  that  1  had  given  my 

opinion  unasked ;  that  he  did  not  send  for  me 

to  give  my  opinion ;  that  it  was  his  business 

toicad  for  me,  and  not  mine  to  send  to  him. 

I  don't  want  you  to  enter  into  particulars ; 
but,  in  general,  have  you  often  observed  that 
there  has  been  bad  meat  delivered  to  the  men, 
nd  that  there  have  been  compkupts  made  ? — 
Hiere  have  frequently. 

To  whom? — ^There  have  been  complaints 
mide  in  the  kitchen,  there  has  been  some 
eoBpliint  made,  I  recollect,  to  the  board  of 
Sectors. 

By  whom  ? — ^It  was  made  by  the  council ; 
Ivasnot  at  the  making  that  complaint*  but  I 
mat  the  council  when  we  Gomplainea  of  the 
dark  of  thedn^ue's  clerk,  who  had  received 
bid  vial,  and  I  never  remember  any  official 
Ittwers  inm  the  board  of  directors. 

Had  jmi  any  redress  ?-*!  don't  remember 
any  ofl&oal  answer,  nor  any  redress. 

The  Kof  Sandwich,  Wereyou present  when 
William  Fleoe's  evidence  was  taKen  down  ? — 
I  don't  recollect  that  I  was ;  I  was  present  at 
some;  I  recollect  that  Fleoe  did  not  attend  at 
&e  trial  at  Guildhall.  I  remember  he  was 
absent  then.      [Captain  Allwright  withdrew.] 

lieutenant  Kerr  called  in. 

Oive  an  account  to  the  Commitlee  of  what 
you  know  of  any  complaint   having  been 
aade  at  Greenwich  Hospital  relative  to  provi- 
sions in  general,  and  what  steps  have  been 
taken  in  consequence  of  it  f — When  I  first 
came  into  the  Hospitid,  there  was  a  complaint 
thtt  the  men  baa  been  served  with  shins, 
Mcks,  and  legs  of  beef;  I  acquainted  lieut^ 
itaot  governor  Boys  of  it;  the  lieutenant  gp- 
^WQor  complained  to  the  board  of  directors. 
Th^  immediately  sent  for  the  butcher ;  the 
inest  wad  broii^ht,  the  legs,  shins,  and  necks, 
and  shewn  to  than,  and  that  was  redressea 
iBUnedistdy  upon  my  complaint  to  lieutenant 
govonor  Boys;  aAer  that  the  meat  still  conti- 
nned  to  be  complained  of.  Upon  my  being  upon 
^ty,  I  comphsned  often  to  lieutenant  Ver- 
ier fioys  of  it  of  the  smallness  of  the  pieces, 
^  of  the  raUier  blackness,  as  I  callea  it,  or 
badness  of  the  beef.    Mr.  Boys  often  ordered 
tiie  meat  to  be  delivered  to  the  contracting 
bttleber,  wfaicfa  vras  afterwards  complained  of 
•■ittspi:  th^  sud,  alW  the  meat  was  bdl- 
M,  it  flidbiMft  be  fetutned  to  the  butcher,  or 


he  make  amends  for  it ;  that  it  should  have 
been  complained  of  before  it  had  been  boiled, 
Upon  these  complaints,   I   myself  thought 
there  had  been  something  extraordinary  in  it ; 
the  meat,  when  it  came,  appeared  to  look  very 
well,  but  upon  being  boiled  in  the  copper,  it 
turned  out  so  bad,  as  I  being  often  upon  duty 
had  occasion  to  see.    I  found  that  the  meat 
did  notv^tis  called  spend  so  well,  that  it 
did  not  look  so  well,  and  did  not  seem  to  hang 
together;    I    thought  there  was  something 
wrong  when  I  was  upon  duty ;  I  had  great 
reason  to  suspect  the  outchcr's  man  guilty  of 
a  fraud ;  and  as  I  had  often  occasion  to  go  to 
London,  I  frequently  saw  the  butcher's  man 
at  petty  ale-houses  on  the  road.    I  was  by  a 
shower  of  rain  forced  into  an  ale-hou3e  called 
the  Half-way-house ;  I  saw  the  butcher's  man 
selling  the  meat ;  the  woman  and  he  were 
disputmg  about  the  price,  whether  he  should 
have  three5>ence  or    two-^»ence  halfpenny 
a  pound.    I  sat  down,  and  heard  the  conver*- 
aation  go  on ;  I  found  th^e  was  some  fraud; 
I  told  nobody  of  it,  but  I  was  much  upon  my 
gu«d,  still  finding  the  meat,  during  a  space 
of  time,  to  be  veiy  short,  and  giving  the  men, 
when  ttiey  complained,  choice  pieces  did  not 
seem  to  sa^ty  them;   I  complained  many 
times  to  lieutenant  governor  ooys,  and  he 
could  not  tell  what  to  do;  I  then  ordered  the 
boatswain  (I  cannot  recollect  his  name  now) 
to  be  upon  hb  guard,  for  I  told  him  tiiat  I 
thought  there  was  a  firaud ;  he  detected  the 
butcher's  man  in  a  leg  and  fore-quarter,  what 
they  call  a  jigget  df  mutton,  a  shoulder  of 
mutton,  and  part  of  a  breast,  to  the  amount 
of  40  or  45  pounds ;  it  was  brought  to  the 
council ;  the  butcher's  man  told  the  counci! 
that  it  was  the  surplus  meat  belonging  to  his 
master ;  he  made  it  appear  to  the  gentlemen 
of  the  ooundl,  I  believe  then,  that  it  was  sur- 
plus meat  of  hb  master.    I  myself,  in  ray  opi- 
nk>n  (if  I  may  use  that  expression)  thought  it 
was  not,  but  I  could  not  prove  that  it  was  not 
so :  the  meat  was  ordered  to  be  eiven  him ; 
I  thought  mvself  hurt,  and  I  let  it  drop  for  m 
months.    I  had  some  business  callea  me  to 
town ;  as  I  was  coming  through  Kent-street, 
I  saw  the  butcher  very  drunk  in  an  ale-house, 
I  did  not  go  in  there  to  examine,  but  when  I 
came  to  enquire,  I  told  the  blue-frock  men^- 
but  I  am  going  too  fast— on  the  Monday  I 
think  that  I  came  on  duty,  I  said,  Emanuel 
Tucker,  I  am  come  upon  duty,  if  you  don't 
tell  your  master  to  send  proper  meat,  I  told 
him  by  the  blessed  name  of  God.  that  I  would 
complain  to  the  directors,  and  nave  him  pu- 
nished, and  the  contract  taken  from  him ;  he 
said  the  meat  was  very  good.    The  meat  was 
oomplahied  of,  I  tbdnk  it  was  the  Thursday 
following.    I  will  not  be  positive  to  the  im- 
mediate day,  but  it  was  the  beef  day :   I  went 
to  Mr.  Boys ;  three  pieces  had  been  carried 
to  the  steward's  office ;  it  was  thought  proper, 
because  the  meat  had  been  boiled;  they  were 
very  bad,  and  I  don't  believe  the  pieces  when 
cut  up  weighed  xn»ra  than  five  or  six  ounces 


151J 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thmas  BailSe^         [153 


for  a  man ;  upon  this  Mr.  Boys  said  he  could 
not  tell  what  to  do  in  it 

You  need  not  be  so  very  particular  in  all 
this  description,  only  acquaint  the  Committee^ 
whether  there  have  not  upon  the  whole  been 
complaints?— Yes,  I  detected  the  butcher's 
man  in  stealing  the  meat;  he  was  tried  and 
transported. 

How  long  was  it  from  the  time  that  you 
first  suspected  these  frauds  till  the  time  you 
made  tne  complaint  ? — There  were  manv 
times  complaints,  and  many  times  redressed, 
bv  giving  the  men  that  complained  the 
choicest  pieces,  and  every  pains  was  taken  in 
■the  office  to  give  the  men  satisfaction. 

You  said  you  had  reason  to  think  that  there 
were  frauds  committed  by  the  butcher  from 
some  conversation  yoii  heard  at  an  ale-house, 
how  long  was  it  after  that  when  you  made 
the  coniplaint  ? — I  was  suspicious  of  the  fraud 
long  before^  from  the  badness  of  the  meat,  the 
meat  being  boiled  and  not  bavins  a  proper 
quantity  on  the  bohes ;  I  was  called  the  bone- 
carrier  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  because  I  de- 
tected the  bones  which  he  had  been  serving. 
How  long  afler  you  had  these  suspicions 
wasitbeforeyou  made  a  complaint?— Tne  first 
complaint  that  I  made  was  of  the  meat ;  it 
was  a  year  and  a  half,  I  b€!lieve^^)efore  I  could 
be  certain  to  make  any  complaint  of  that 
fraud. 

Then  it  was  a  year  and  a  half  af^r  you 
had  suspicions  before  you  made  a  complaint  ? 
.  — ^Yes. 

Whdm  did  you  tnakc  that  complaint  to?— I 
never  made  any  complaint  to  any  body,  be- 
cause I  could  not  ascertain  it.  The  com- 
Slainl  that  I  made  was  of  the  beef  at  different 
ays,  that  to  the  lieutenant  governor,  which 
was  redressed  immediately  by  the  lieutenant 
■  governor's  orders ;  but  the  great  complaint  I 
never  made  till  the  Monday  of  the  week  the 
butcher  was  detected;  I  told  one  Jonathan 
Fell,  you  blue  frock  men  are  all  parties  of  this 
fraud,  and  I  9)iall,  I  hope,  see  some  of  you 
turned  out ;  the  man,  conscious  of  the  fraud, 
wrote  an  anonymous  letter  to  the  lieutenant 
governor,  that  he  would  shew  him  where  the 
meat  was  secreted. 

How  do  you  know  that  he  did  write  it  > — ^I 
hear^  the  man  confess  that  he  did  dictate  that 
letter  to  another;  I  asked  him  that  per- 
sonally ;  he  wrote  that  upon  my  saying  that 
I  had  them  now,  I  hope  I  shall  detect  you,  I 
hope  I  shall  have  the  pleasure  to  see  you 
turned  out,  for  you  must  be  concerned  in  this 
fraud.  I  did  not  make  a  complaint,  because 
I  could  not  prove  it,  I  only  suspected  in  my 
self  that  there  was  a  fraud. 

Did  you  suggest  these  suspicions  to  any 
body? — I  never  did  to  any  one  person  in  the 
world  till  afterwards. 

Whether  you  don't  think  it  extremely  easy, 
for  a  contracting  butcher,  in  the  situation  Mr. 
Mellish  was,  to  commit  ereat  frauds,  without 
it  being  in  the  power  of^people  of  detecting 
htm,  and  to  bfiftg  proof  of  it  ^— I  hare  been 


in  the  kitchen,  luive  seen  the  meat  received, 
and  received  with  great  care^  but  ^who  can 
withstand  an  artful  cunning  fellow,  afier  the 
officer  had  received  it,  then  we  went  in  aini 
detectjed  him ;  if  we  had  not  gone  in  as  we 
did,  it  would  not  have  been  in  the  power  or 
man  to  detect  him,  because  he  said  it  was  the 
surplus  meat;  I  enauired,  and  found,  that 
there  was  a  pound  and  an  luilf,  or  two  pounds 
of  surplus  meat,  therefore  if  he  had  six^ 
pounds,  he  must  have  stole  it. 

Then  do  you  think  it  extremely  difficult  to 
detect  firauds  in  the  butcher  ?^— Certainly. 

It  is  not  the  butcher,  but  the  butcher's  man  ' 
you  allude  to  ?— Yes. 

And  it  is  not  the  butcher  himself,  but  his 
man,  that  all  this  transaction  related  to  ? — 
Yes. 

But  do  ^ou  think  it  easy  for  the  contracting 
butcher  himself,  to  carry  on  frauds  without 
being  detected  ?— I  cannot  think  it  can,  be* 
cause  there  is  the  steward  and  so  many  other 
officers  all  there,  and  it  is  impossible  for  me 
to  think  that  any  fraud  can  t>e  committed; 
the  meat  is  seen  and  examined,  if  they  com* 
mit  it,  they  must  be  all  concerned. 

Whether  you  imaeine,  that  the  firaud  of 
selling  bull  beef,  and  bull-s^  beef,  was  car* 
ried  on  for  a  considerable,  time,  before  it  was 
discovered  ? — Yes,  I  think  it  was ;  but  I  can- 
not see  how  that  can  be,  when  the  meat  is 
served  in,  so  I  havi;  said  several  times,  tiutt  I 
really  believe  this  is  bull  beef,  but  I  could  not 
ascertain  that  it  was ;  I  have  saki  oflen  that  I 
believed  it  was  so. 

Am  I  to  understand,  that  you  believe  that 
there  were  abuses  in  the  contract  from  the 
butcher  himself,  a  long  time  before  it  was  de- 
tected ?— I  do  believe  that  there  was,  to  the 
best  of  my  knowledge,  there  has  been  meat 
returned,  and  very  bad. 

Did  any  of  the  pensioners  ever  complain 
that  the  beef  was  very  tough  ?— They  have ; 
that  complaint  has  been,  and  I  have  acauunt- 
ed  the  heutenant  governor  of  it,  ana  they 
have  had  a  choice  piece  the  nextdayi  and 
eveiy  step  was  l^en  to  regulate  it 

Was  there  an^r  particular  reason  ever  asked, 
after  the  complaint  was  first  made,  why  it  was 
not  lodged  with  the  proper  officers,  the  direo- 
tors;  was  there  any  mtimidation? — Never, 
none  to  my  knowledge. 

[lieutenant  Kerr  withdrew.] 

Lieutenant  Smith  called  in. 

Give  an  account  to  the  committee,  of  what 
you  know  relative  to  the  mismanagement  of 
the  Hospital,  in  respect  to  the  provisions? — I 
have  known  very  freouent  reason  to  complain 
of  the  beef  particularly,  and  many  complaints 
were  made  to  my  superior  <^cers;  I  did 
make  it  to  sir  Charles  Iiardy ;  I  have  made  it 
repeatedly  to  Mr.  Baillie ;  I  not  only  did  it 
from  complaints  of  the  men,  but  have  done  it 
of  my  own  accord;  because  there  isalettar 
from  the  lords  of  the  Admiral^,  dated  soma 
years  bsok^  wherein  the  officers  in  general  am 


i5S]        rapeciing  ihe  Rot^l  Ho$pii4d  iU  Oteimoich* .       A.  D.  1778. 


[iM 


reflected  upon  for  sufiering  abuses,  when  they, 
knew  them  to  exist ;    in  consequence  of  that 
letter,  I  thought  it  my  duty  to  inform  my  su- 
perior officers  of  such  abuses.     One  day  in 
particular,  in  which  I  was  happy  to  find  the 
iKitcher  prosecuted  tor  bad  meat>  which  I  dis- 
covered (Ml'.  Everest  called  to  tell  me  of  it) 
as  the  meat  was  going  forward,  without  any 
complaint  being  nuide  to  me  by  any  of  the 
pensioners ;   I  stopped  it,  havine  seen  before 
bull  beef  boiled,  which  I  had  seen  in  the 
eountiy  aven  away  by  noblemen :  I  took  no 
notice  of  the  first,  second,  or  third  dishes,  but 
afterwards  I  stopped  one  dish,  and  sent  ^em 
all  to  ^e  lieutenant  governor ;  at  that  time 
captain  Clements  did  not  attend  so  much  to 
hb  duty,  therefore  I  did  not  trouble  him ;  I 
sent  dish  after  dish  to  captain  Baillie. 

Do  you  recollect  any  tning  about  bad  veal  ? 
— Certainly  I  do ;  the  complaint  was  made 
very  properly,  as  I  thought,  by  the  infirmary 
gentlemen ;  I  believe  Dr.  Hossack  and  Mr. 
Focbck,  the  dispenser,  were  the  two  principal 
people  that  brought  it  to  light ;  that  upon  its 
Dcing  examined,  we  all  declared  it  to  be  bad. 
Was  complaint  made  of  it  ?^There  was. 
Whom  to  P— First  of  all  to  the  council,  after 
that  it  was  laid  before  the  board  of  directors, 
to  that  we  never  had  any  answer. 

Was  it  ever  redressed  ?—  I  don't  know  whe- 
ther it  was,  for  I  heard  nothing  about  it  after- 
wards. 

Pray  who  receives  the  meat  in  the  kitchens 
from  the  butcher  ? — The  steward  and  the  clerk 
of  the  cheque  are  the  proper  officers  to  receive 
it,  but  it  is  frequently  left  to  their  deputies, 
who,  I  suppose,  are  very  worthy  people  for 
what  I  know,  I  may  be  deceived. 

It  is  the  dut^  of  some  of  the  officers  to 
attOMi  in  the  kitchen? — The  commissioned 
officers  take  it  in  turn  to  attend  in  the  kitchen, 
and  if  they  see  any  abusiss  or  frauds,  they  are 
to  make  it  known. 

Were  you  ever  obstructed  in  it? — ^No, 
never. 

Is  "bull  beef  easily  to  be  distinguished  from 
ox  beef  after  it  is  dressed  ? — Yes,  I  think  so ; 
I  had  frequently  seen  bad  beef;  and  after- 
wards it  appeared  before  lord  Mansfield,  that 
the  man  was  convicted  upon  that  very  action 
jis  bull  beef;  my  own  suggestion  was,  because 
it  was  shrivelled  up,  and  appeared  very  black, 
and  not  to  be  full  weisht  it  it  was  weighed. 
'  Was  this  discovered  frequently  ? — ^I  cannot 
sav  that,  I  only  discovered  of  my  own  accord, 
fAa  a  complaint  from  a  pensioner. 

[Lieulen^t  Smith  withdrew.] 


Tkur^dtty,  March  18,  1779. 

Mr.  Alexander  Moore  called  in. 

What  are  you  in  Greenwich  Hospital? — 
Cook  of  one  part  of  it  at  present. 

How  long  have  you  been  in  the  Hospital  ? 
j— Since  September,  1774. 
L    Vi^  do  you  know  of  there  iiaving  been 


bad  provisions  served  to  the  Hospital  ?— When 
I  came  to  the  Hospital,  I  was  rather  amazed 
to  see  such  proviswns  served  to  the  Hospital, 
but  was  not  acquainted  with  the  contracts 
that  were  entered  into;  beii^  acquainted 
from  my  youth  in  breeding  and  feeding  cattl& 
I  was  acquainted  with  these  meats;  1  found 
them  to  be  nothing  but  bull's  fiesh  and  bull 
stags,  and  so  on,  and  mutton  in  the  turn 
much  the  same  as  ram,  and  ewe  mutton  espe* 
cially,  a  mixture  of  all  sorts. 

Was  this  only  occasionally  or  frequently^ 
^nerally  ? — ^All  the  time,  from  the  *^9th  of 
beptember,  1774,  to  the  1st  of  June,  1775,  I 
believe  certainly  there  was  not  a  lot  that  waa 
killed  real  ox,  or  wether  mutton. 

Do  you  mean  ^at  it  was  constantly  bad 
meat,  or  only  occasionally  ? — Every  day. 

What,  the  beef  and  the  mutton  both  ? — The 
pensioners  were  continually  grumbling ;  and 
It  was  so  bad,  that  at  that  time  of  day  we  re- 
ceived mc^e  meat  than  we  do  now,  because 
some  pensioners  are  gone  out  of  the  house. 

Did  you  complain  of  this  ? — I  did  not  k(iow 
what  the  contract  was ;  I  was  a  straneer ;  t 
did  not  know  any  thing  about  it;  I  was 
afraid.  The  contract  was  to  be  out  in  March ; 
the  people  murmured  a  good  deal;  they 
thought  some  other  butcher  would  have  it ; 
the  contract  was  expired,  and  a  fresh  contract 

fiven  to  Mr.  Mellish  again.  The  very  first 
ay  of  the  contract,  nothing  but  bull  beef 
came  for  that  day ;  so  it  went  on.  I  fre- 
quently complained  to  the  butcher's  men ;  I 
told  them  to  tell  their  master  the  meat  was 
not  fit  to  eat.  I  asked  him  next  day  what  the 
master  said ;  they  used  to  tell  me  the  master 
asked  who  enquired  after  it,  and  they  told 
him ;  the  answer  he  gave  to  the  servants  was. 
Never  mind  them,  they  don't  know  any  thing 
about  it.  I  found  it  not  bearable;  I  ac- 
quainted captain  Bsdllie,  the  lieutenant  go- 
vernor ;  I  told  him  there  were  iniquitous  af- 
fairs carrying  on  in  the  Hospital ;  I  enquired 
what  price  the  meat  was ;  ne  told  me  it  was 
then  near  a  groat  a  pound ;  the  contract  was 
for  ox  beef  and  ^etner  mutton  at  that  time ; 
from  that  ten  months^  Mr.  Mellish  had  very 
artfully  in  his  trade  killed  many  ewes^  beside 
rams  and  ram  stags,  which  is  generally  In 
breeding  of  sheep ;  a  farmer  wul  generally 
keep  tmrfy  or  forty  wether  lambs  uncut,  be- 
cause they  can  firequently  sell  them  for  a  good 
price;  if  they  don't  turn  out  well,  they  cut 
them,  which  are  not  so  good  as  wether 
Iambs,  nor  so  bad  as  rams ;  these  rams  aie 
not  known  very  well,  only  by  the  entrail 
parts,  and  chiefly  the  fat  of  them,  as  any  pear- 
son  that  is  acquainted  with  them  knows,  lies 
in  the  neck ;  those  animals  that  are  uncut  of 
all  kinds,  are  very  thick  in  the  fore  parts,  and 
are  very  easy  to  De  known  by  a  person  that  is 
any  judge  of  it. 

When  did  you  make  your  compl^t? — Oa 
the  1st  of  June,  1775,  the  meat  was  amazins 
bad ;  I  told  the  butdier's  man  that  morning  I 
would  not  take  it ;  he  was  in  a  g^e&t  kuny  to 


1551 


18  GSOflGE  in.         The  CUut  tf  Captain  Thonuu  BaiUkf         [156 


fetehthestenndlto  panit;  Mt.  Coaies,  the 
dark  of  Um  tbeque'»  assistant,  came  in,  looked 
at  the  beef, said  m  thoajriit  it  was  pretty  good; 
I  said  I  hoped  he  wouici  not  take  it,  tt  was 
ttotlung  but  bulPs  flesh.  The  steward,  Mr. 
Oodby,  came  in,  looked  at  it,  said  he  thought 
H  pretty  good.  Mr.  Coates  told  Mr.  Godby 
what  I  had  said ;  a  survey .  was  made  of  the 
meat ;  captain  Lyne  and  lieutenant  Bosson, 
came  to  survey  the  meat.  The  governor  was 
then  acquainted  with  it;  I  told  them  not  to 
cake  my  word  what  it  was,  but  send  for  any 
butcher  in  the  kingdom ;  and  if  it  was  not 
bulVs  flesh,  I  would  forfeit  my  life ;  however, 
the  gentlemen  went  to  the  steward's  house ; 
they  had  a  meeting,  and  the  steward  ac« 
quainted  sir  Charles  Hardy,  the  governor;  sir 
Charles  ordered  the  meat  to  be  boiled  that 
day,  and  it  was  boUed ;  the  gentlemto  then 
came  to  taste  of  It  afterwards ;  I  omitted  one 
thing  in  the  interim  of  that  time,  Mr.  Coates 
andMr.  Bdl,  the  steward's  clerk^  wanted  me 
to  drop  it,  aiMl  say  nothing  about  it  any  more ; 
they  would  see  it  lectifieci. 

Who  are  they  ? — One  is  clerk  assistant  to 
^le  chequ^  and  the  other  to  the  steward ;  I 
then  thou^t  I  was  wronging  my  own  con- 
adence ;  I  thought,  if  I  should  be  called  upon 
to  come,  I  was  not  satisfied  in  my  own  mmd. 
I  saved  some  pieces  of  that  meat  particularly, 
and  acquainted  the  lieutenant  governor  of  it, 
and  told  him  what  it  was ;  he  then,  I  suooose, 
acquainted  sir  Charles  Haidy ;  and  I  told  the 
'lieutenant  eovemor,  that  we  butcher's  ser- 
vants that  £y  hi^  said  they  were  Sony  thev 
ahouM  bring  Such  meat  down  to  Greenwich 
Hospital,  bt%  they  could  not  help  it,  it  was 
tibeir  mastei's  orders ;  t  asked  tnem  if  they 
'^rould  choose  to  say  ^t  before  the  lieutenant 
0)iveniQr,  or  any  justice  of  peace ;  they  jaid 
'Siey  were  willing  to  say  it  any  where;  they 
were  very  mtich  ashamed  to  bring  it  down. 

What  is  the  difference  of  the  price  of  the 
meat  that  was  furnished  for  ttat  ten  months, 
and  the  contract  price? — I  look  upon  it  that 
Imll  beef  in  any  part  of  the  country  is  not 
worth  above  three  half-pence  a  pound ;  Mr. 
Hellish  in  his  bunness,  I  look  upon  it,  might 
bar  it  alive  at  a  penny  a  poimd. 

You  made  your  complaint  you  say  on  the 
1st  iA  June  to  captain  Baillie } — ^Yes,  and  to 
the  proper  officers  of  the  Hospital. 

You  mentioned  that  Mr.  Godby's  clerk, 
and  the  clerk  of  the  cheque's  clerk  had  per- 
auaded  you  not  to  take  any  notice  of  it  ?— ics, 
that  vefy  mominc. 

Did  any  body  else  persuade  you  at  any  other 
time  not  to  take  any  notice  of  it  f— Yes,  after- 
wards, but  not  that  day. 

Give  an  account  of^tiurtP^^-Gn  the  9th  of 
Jnn^  1775,  nine  days  after  that  date,  Mr. 
Baillie  went  ud  with  captain  Allwright  to  Lon- 
don: two  of  tne  butcher's  men  met  captain 
*  Baillie  at  justice  PelTs,  in  Well-close  square ; 
they  were  willing  to  give  in  their  affidavits 
that  they  had.  fran  the  time  that  they  lived 
with  Mr.  MeOidi,  never  ataoytime  nought 


any  parcel  of  real  ox  beef  or  wether  mutton 
down  all  the  time  that  they  lived  with  Mn 
Mellish,  both  of  them. 

That  was  not  to  your  knowled^;  you  ifid 
not  hear  them  say  ixaX  ? — ^Yes,  I  did,  and  gave 
my  affidavit  to  the  same  on  the  same  day. 

It  is  no  matter 'what  they  said;  but  what 
did  you  say  ?  What  otjier  persons  endeavoured 
to  persuade  you  not  to  make  this  complaint 
known } — ^Afler  this  was  done,  upon  the  1 1th 
of  June,  which  to  the  best  of  my  remem- 
brance was  Sunday,  at  night  Mr.  Godby 
sent  for  me  to  his  house,  told  me  there  would 
be  some  enquiiy  upon  the  complaints  of  the 
meat,  beesea  that  I  would  not  say  that  any 
bull  beefnad  been  delivered  into  the  Hos- 
pital ;  I  told  him  my  conscience  cannot  do  it ; 
he  said  he  was  very  sorry  that  I  did  not  ac^ 
quaint  him  sooner;  that  he  would  not  have 
accepted  of  it ;  I  told  him  I  had  told  him 
enough  of  it  before. 

What  did  he  desire  you  to  do } — ^He  desired^ 
that  if  I  should  be  called^  to  say  that  there 
was  no  bull  beef  ever  deUvered  to  the  Hos- 
pital. 

Repeat  that  conversation  that  you  had  with 
Blr.  Godby  directiy  as  it  happened  in  mint  of 
timef — Upon  the  11th  of  June,  a  Sunday 
night,  Mr.  Godby  sent  for  me  to  his  own 
house,  and  in  his  own  parlour  he  told  me» 
that  there  would  be  some  enquiry  made  about 
the  meat;  he  hoped  I  would  not  say  any 
thing  that  there  had  been  bull  beef  de- 
live^  to  the  Hospital.  I  told  him  that  I 
certainly  could  not  deny  the  truth;  tiSat  I 
certainly  must  speak  the  truth ;  that  there 
had  becoi  all  the  time  I  had  been  there. 

What  did  Mr.  Godby  say  about  it?^Mr. 
Godby  did  not  say  any  thin^  i^her  about  it ; 
only  he  said,  if  I  nad  told  him  of  it  before,  he 
would  not  have  accepted  of  it;  I  repeated 
that  I  had  told  him  sevoal  times. 

And  had  you  in  fact  told  him  ? — ^I  did  on 
the.  1st  of  June,  and  told  him  it  had  been  so 
all  the  time  I  had  been  there. 

To  what  time  did  Mr.  Godby  refor,  when 
he  said  if  you  told  him  before ;  did  he  mean 
before  the  1st  of  June,  or  any  other  time?^- 
No  such  words  passed  as  tiiat 

What  did  you  understand  that  he  meant, 
when  he  said  he  wbhed  you  had  told  him  ao 
before? — ^I  cannot  tell  what  he  might  think 
when  he  said  that. 

Did  any  body  else  endeavour  to  persuade 
you  not  to  speak  about  it? — ^Yes,  upon  the 
ISth  or  ISth  of  June,  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  seM 
for  me  to  his  apartments,  and  had  a  good 
deal  of  conversation  about  the  meat,  and  said 
he  thought  that  bull  stag  beef,  and  such  like, 
was  very  eood  for  the  pensioners,  as  they  are 
well  clothed  and  laid  in  eood  beds,  and  so 
on ;  that  he  thought  it  m^nt  do  very  well ;  I 
reasoned  a  gooa  deal  about  it ;  told  Mr. 
Cooke  that  there  was  as  much  difference  b^ 
twecn  bull  beef  and  ox  beef,  as  between  a 
piece  of  coarse  hop-bag  and  fine  cloth. 

Did  he  endeavour  to  persuade  you  not  ta 


157]  ftipeciiHg  the  Hoyal  HoMpUal  td  Oremmch.        A.  D.  1778. 


[ifia 


ay  there  had  heen  bull-beef  ^-^He  did  not  say 
much  about  that;  he  only  argued  that  the 
beef  was  so  and  eo ;  hedid  not  persuade  me. 

Was  it  all  bull  beef?  From  the  time  you 
cnne  there,  had  you  no  good  beef? — Cmen 
ve  had  a  good  quarter ;  but  a  mixture  of  that 
sort. 

But,  in  general,  during  the  whole  course  of 
that  ten  months,  from  September  to  June, 
was&e  beef  bull  or  bull-stag  beef,  or  good 
ox  beef? — It  was  all  in  general  very  bad. 

Do  you  imagine,  for  instance,  that  there 
was  any  day  that  passed  in  which  it  was  all 
good? — ^Ketone. 

Was  there  any  day  in  which  there  was  no 
piopartion  of  ^mmI?— There  might  be  one 
part  or  two  parts  good ;  one  very  good  auar- 
ler;  two  quarters  will  do  at  one  kitciwn; 
there  might  be  one  quarter  of  bull  or  bull  stag, 
and  one  quarter  made  up  of  fairish  good  sort 
of  meat? 

Utatishalfandhalf?— Notsomuch;  most 


The  days  you  speak  of  there  was  one  quarter 
of  the  right  sort  of  beef,  and  one  quarter  of 
tlus  sort? — Somethnes. 

Did  that  happen  every  day  ? — ^No. 

How  often  aid  it  happen? — ^It  might  be 
ence  a  week  or  so. 

How  many  times  did  it  happen  in  the 
whole  year,  that  bull  beef  was  brought  in  in- 
stead of  ox  beef? — There  never  was  a  day, 
fer  ten  months,  that  a  real  lot  of  ox  beef  was 
brought  in. 

What  did  you  mean  by  saying  just  now, 
tiiflt  once  a  week  it  happened  ? — ^Iliat  a  quar- 
ter might  be  good,  and  the  rest  bad. 

Wfa^  was  the  proportion  of  eood  and  bad  ? 
What  was  the  whole  quantity  brought  in? — 
Abeut  460lb.  a  day  to  each  kitchen. 

How  many  pounds  of  that  460lb.  were  bad 
beef?— May  be  SOOlb. 

And  this  happened  every  day,  or  once  a 
%eek  ? — ^Evcry  day. 

Every  day  during  all  that  time  ? — ^Yes. 

How  lone  have  you  been  at  Greenwich 
Hospital?-— £ver  since  the  99th  of  September, 
1774. 

Has  this  practice  of  ^vins  bad  meat  to  the 
mea  prevailed  ever  since?— No.    ' 

In  how  much  of  that  time  have  you  had 
good  or  bad  meat? — Since  the  butcher  has 
been  convicted  it  has  been  in  general  very 
good. 

Before  the  butcher  was  convicted,  how  long 
had  you  bad  meat? — ^For  ten  months. 

And  since  that  time  you  have  had  tolerably 
good  meat? — ^Tes. 

Have  you  had  any  bull  beef  since  ? — ^No> 
none  I  believe. 

Expbtn  what  you  mean  by  buU-staes? — It 
happens  among  tiiose  animals  of  buUs  they 
are  subject  to  a  disorder,  they  call  it,  that  tl^y 
take  firmg ;  after  they  are  past  serving  cows, 
thnrarecut 

Do  you  mean  to  say,  that  from  the  time 
Ibese  eompiaiiits  were  made,  in  June,  iff 5, 


that  the  butdier  altered  his  behaviour  to  the 
Hospital,  and  gave  ydu  the  meat  he  ought  %» 
do?—- Yes. 

Would  an  inspection  of  the  meat  shew  how 
long  that  bull  had  been  cut?  Can  vou  dis- 
tinguish if  it  had  been  cut  a  considerable  time 
before?  Can  you  distinguish  tiiat  from  ox 
beef? — Yes,  very  easy,  either  deadorahve; 
more  alive  than  dead. 

How  do  you  distingubh  H  ? — By  the  shape 
and  make  of  them ;  these  animals  are  very 
thick  in  the  neck,  from  an  ox  that  is  cut  when 
it  is  young. 

In  the  mean  time  that  vou  found  this  bull 
beef  and  buU^'Stag  beef  delivered  into  tba 
kitchen,  that  you  had   not  made  any  eom- 

glaint,  had  you  been  advised  bv  any  friend; 
>r  your  own  interest,  to  hold  your  tongue 
upon  it?— No. 

You  will  explain  that  matter,  about  the  beef 
being  good  since  the  prosecution. — ^It  has 
been  very  good  in  general;  sometimes  oo 
butcher  in  the  kingdom  can  make  it  all  atike; 
sometimfBS  there  nave  been  lots  of  beef  and 
mutton  that  were  not  extraordinaty. 

Were  there  any  complaints  in  1776,  or  1777, 
respecting  sow-pork? — ^Yes,  it  will  be  tw^ 
years,  the  33d  ot  April  next. 

Then  it  was  in  April,  1777  ? — ^Yes;  it  was 
the  pork  day,  before  the  Founder^s  day,  as  it 
is  called. 

What  butcher  was  it  from  ? — ^Mr.  Melliah. 

How  was  it  complained  of? — I  believe  it 
would  have  passed  without  any  complaint ;  I 
did  not  mean  to  make  any  complaint  of  it ;  I 
did  see  it.  A  lieuteiumt,  who  nad  no  mean- 
ing, happened  to  speak  of  it  in  the  council- 
room  ;  and  on  the  Friday  ni^^  and  the  next 
board  day,  the  gentlemen  of  the  Hospital,  the 
steward,  and  clerk  of  the  cli»[|ue,  and  some 
other  people,  wrote  against  this  lieutenant  to 
the  board,  for  mutiny,  for  saying  there  wa» 
sow  pork  in  the  bin  that  day. 

But  you  are  a  judge  ot  the  matter;  waa 
there  sow  pork  defivered  in  March  1777,  or 
not? — ^Yes ;  there  was  one  sow  delivered  wi^ 
the  teats  cut  off. 

Was  there  only  one  sow  ?--Only  on^ 

That  has  not  been  lepealed,  hasit?— No^ 
never. 

How  much  pork  was  sent  in  that  dayK->r 
Between  IS  ana  14  cwt 

How  much  did  that  sow  weigh?^-We  did 
not  weixh  one  by  itself;  it  is  all  ^leithed  ia 
one  scale.  [Alexander  Moore  witbdiew.] 

Captain  Baillk  called  in. 

Whether  you  received,  at  any  time,  aagf 
thanks  firom  any  body  for  oroaecuting,  in  tbia 
bu^ess,  either  of  the  butener  or  oi  ^  ser- 
vants?— I  received  a  veiy  honourable  testi- 
mony of  my  poor  services,  in  the  traaspcrti^ 
tlon  of  the  butcher's  servant,  fiom  the  first 
lord  of  the  Admirahy,  when  he  was  trails 
ported. 

In  what  manner  did  you  reeeive  that  teiti- 
nony?— I  had  writtei^  aktter  to  hit  loidahif. 


159] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  ofCofAtnn  Thomas  BasUie,         [160 


upon  that  occasicHiy  setting  forth  the  abuse 
that  had  been  committed  in  the  Hospital; 
and  his  lordship  was  pleased  to  send  me  a  let- 
ter acknowieagingy  that  my  services  were 
very  laudable,  and|  in  his  estimation,  veiy 
proper  and  rieht 

Have  you  uiat  letter  about  you } — ^Yes. 

I  suppose  the  noble  lord  has  no  objection 
to  its  being  read? 

TheEarlof&iiMiincA.    Not  in  the  least. 

Captain  Baillie  then  read  the  following  letter. 

«  Admiralty,  Oct.  6, 1772. 
Sir;  I  was  favoured  with  yours  some  days 
ago,  and  think  your  activity,  to  bring  the  per- 
petrators of  the  late  abuses  to  justice,  highly 
hudable :  and  I  should  imagine  you  must 
feel  much  self-satisfaction,  as  I  am  satisfied 
you  have  done  yourself  real  credit.  This,  how- 
ever, makes  me  much  at  a  loss  to  understand, 
why  you  are  uneasy  in  your  situation,  nor  can 
I  guess  what  sort  of  retreat  you  have  in  view ; 
as  noticing  occurs  to  me,  in  this  department, 
l^t  can  be  an  object  of  your  pursuit,  afler 
your  retirement  upon  the  noble  foundation 
wh^ne  you  are  now  settled. — I  am,  with  regard^ 
your  most  obedient,  humble  servant^ 

"  Sardwich.^' 
«  To  Captain  Baillie." 
.  What  made  you  uneasy  in  your  situation, 
as  you  have  represented  ? — When  I  was  a  cap- 
tain of  the  Hospital,  I  clearly  saw  that  if  ever 
I  arrived  at  the  heutenant-government  of  the 
Hospital,  that  I  had  a  torrent  of  abuses  to 
stem ;  which  made  me  ver]r  indifferent  about 
any  preferment  in  Greenwich  Hosmtal ;  and 
even  at  that  time  of  day,  I  would  nave  gone 
out  of  the  Hospital  upon  any  terms ;  and  after 
that  rtpresented  my  situation  to  lord  Ssuid- 
wich,  and  would  have  gone  to  any  part  of  his 
Duyesty's  dominions,  to  have  gone  out  of 
Greaawich  Hospital ;  but  it  was  my  fate  to 
stay  there,  and  I  have  discharged  my  duW,  in 
every  part  of  my  office,  to  uie  best  of  my 
ability. 

.  Were  there  any  thanks  about  the  butcher  ? 
— ^When  the  butcher  was  prosecuted,  and 
when  depositions  wc;re  taken  oefore  Mr.  Pell, 
1  inclosed  authentic  copies  of  those  deposi- 
tions to  the  first  lord  or  the  Admiralty,  and 
was  quite  astonished  that  I  received  no  answer 
or  support  from  his  lordship  upon  that  occasion ; 
and  upon  an  interview  with  nis  lordship  after- 
wards, I  mnasreceived  in  a  manner  that  I  did  not 
expect,  in  a  veiY  cool  manner.  I  entreated 
his  lordship  to  take  the  contract  from  1^1  r.  Mel- 
lish ;  that  a  man  who  had  cheated  the  Hos- 
pital, by  both  himself  and  his  servants,  would 
persevere  in  the  same  kind  of  conduct;  and  I 
believe  he  has,  till  since  the  last  conviction. 

What  time  was  it  you  sent  an  account  of 
your  detection  of  the  butcher } — Soon  afVer  the 
.9th  of  June,  I  enclosed  the  depositions  already 
^nentioned  to  his  lordship ;  I  did  not  choose 
to  write  to  the  board  of  Admiralty,  because  I 
thou^t  it  would  not  be  proper  to  disclose  the 
whok  ioteraal  managqueat  of  Greenwich 


Hospital  to  the  board,  therefore  I  sent  it  more 
privately  to  his  lordship. 

Infomr  the  committee  what  number  of 
clerks,  deputies  or  servants,  who  are  not  sea- 
farin,^  men,  have  apartments  in  the  Hospital, 
and  those  that  have  wards? — I  beheve  in  alL 
twenty-six,  twenty-seven,  or  twenty-eight  of- 
ficers, under  officers,  and  servants  of  the  esta- 
blishment^ that  are  actuallv  lodged  within  the 
walls  of  the  Hospital,  and  some  in  the  warda 
of  the  pensioners ;  if  your  lordships  please,  I 
will  begin  with  Mr.  Eden ;  he  has  a  large 
apartment  at  the  south  end  of  the  buildingv 
called  Queen  Ann*s  Buildings.  M&  IbbetHon 
has  a  very  handsome  and  spacious  apartment,' 
ait  the  other  end  of  the  same  building,  twQ 
large  stair-cases  leading  to  those  apartments, 
communicate  with  seieral  of  the  wards  in  that 
quarter ;  these  stair-cases  are  not  enclosed, 
but  the  avenues  leading  to  the  several  warda 
are  enclosed  for  the  private  convenience  of 
these  gentlemen ;  I  have  been  oflen  obstruct- 
ed in  my  duty,  in  Visiting  those  wards,  because 
there  now  remains  only  a  narrow  staircase 
leading  to  them ;  it  has  been  my  pleasure  and 
my  pride,  to  shew  that  Hospital  to  several  fo- 
reign princes,  particularly  to  the  prince  of 
Brunswick^  two  princes  of  Hesse,  &c.  &c.  but 
that  quarter  of  the  Hospital  is  not  now  shewn 
to  Strangers  upon  that  account,  not  to  mention 
the  other  inconveniencies.  There  are,  besides, 
the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke;  he  is  lodged  there  as 
chaplain  of  the  Hospital ;  the  rev.  Mr.  Maule, 
and  Mr.  Godby,  have  handsome  apartments, 
Mr.  Godby  has  had  an  addition  to  his  apart- 
ments; the  secretary  to  sir  John  Nonris 
brought  up  a  large  family  in  that  apartment, 
without  requiring  any  addition  to  it;  Mr. 
Godby  has  had  an  additional  room  or  two 
since,  his  apartment  not  being  thought  ho^ 
enough. 

What  was  that  room  taken  out  of? — ^I  be- 
lieve  part  of  one  of  the  offices,  either  out  of  his 
or  the  treasurcr's-office,  an  exchange  was  mado 
ilpon  that  occasion. 

Upon  the  whole,  there  are  twenty-six  or 
twenty-seven  landmen,  who  are  lodged  in  the 
wards  of  the  pensioners  ? — Not  so  many  land- 
men actually  locked  in  the  wards  of  the  pen- 
sioners, some  of  them  are  in  apartments  in  the 
Hospital. 

How  many  are  lodged  in  the  wards? — 
Francis  Cook,  secretary's  clerk,  has  a  hand- 
some apartment  in  the  wards  of  the  pen- 
sioners, I  believe  little  inferior  to  a  captain's 
apartment;  he  occupies  to  the  amount  of 
twenty-four  or  twenty-sL\  cabins. 

How  many  cabins  of  pensioners  do  you 
think  are  occupied  by  officers  in  the  House  ? — 
If  I  include  the  officers,  there  are  several 
officers  lodged  in  that  psurt  of  the  building; 
that  was  originally  intended,  certainly  for 
wards,  because  tlie  proper  apartments  are  oc- 
cupied by  otlicrs,  wno  don*t  appear  to  me  to 
have  a  right  in  the  establishment ;  lieutenant 
Gordon  is  lodged  in  a  part  of  the  Hospital 
founded  for  wards ;  lieutenant  Kerr,  the  derk 


J6I]        re^iediMg  the  Royci  Hotfkid  at  Greemuch.        A.  D.  1778. 


[162 


of  thecbeque,  the  two  ihatrons,  and  the  clerk 

of  the  works,  but  there  are  about  forty-eight  or 

fifty  cabins  occupied  by  intruders,  that  have 

beak  cabins  durii^  my  time. 
Upoa  the  whofe,  blow  maiiy  cabins  of  pen- 

noners  are  occupied  by  oflfcers? — AeaUy  I 
camiot  tell  how  many  cabins,  because  some  of 
those  cabins  were  occupied  before  I  came  into 
the  Hospital,  but  there  are  about  forty-eight 
80  occupied,  that  have  been  cabins,  that  I  re- 
meoiber  the  greater  part  of,  if  not  all  of  them. 

Is  th^e  any  objection  for  want  of  room  for 
the  pensioners? — There  is  certainly  room 
sufficient  for  the  number  of  pensioners  that 
inhabit  at  present,  but  there  are  always  seamen 
waiting  in  expectation  of  admission. 

The  Earl  of  Sandmeh,  Was  that  the  an- 
swer, that  there  were  always  seamen  waiting 
to  be  admitted? — A.  I  understand  there  are 
always  people  coming  down  to  Greenwich 
Hospital,  intreating  for  admission. 
.  Do  you  say,  that  you  know  that  there  are 
seamen  waiting  to  be  admitted  ? — I  have  oflen 
heard  it. 

Speak  from  your  own  knowledge;  do  you 
know  any  such  thing? — I  know  an  extraordi- 
naiy  instance  of  a  seaman,  that  did  not  get 
adfloission  into  the  Hospital ;  I  don't  know  at 
present. 

.  Whether  ^ou  don't  know  of  any  vacancy  at 
the  present  time  for  pensioners  ? — ^I  am  not  in 
office  at  Greenwich  tiospital  at  present 

I  ask  you  if  you  don*t  know  that  there '  is 
any  vacancy  mr  pensioners?  How  can  you 
say  that  there  are  seamen  waiting  to  be  admit- 
ted ?— I  understood  it  to  have  been  always  the 
case,  that  there  are  a  number  upon  the  list  at 
the  Admiralty. 

Do  you  say  it  is  so  now  ? — I  don't  say  so 
by  any  means,  because  I  don't  know  the  list 
of  the  Admiralty ;  I  cannot  judge  of  that. 

Be  so  good  as  give  the  remancable  instance 
you  roenti0ned  that  you  have  known? — I 
Knew  a  particular  instance  of  a  seaman,  who 
was  recommended  by  admiral  Harrington,  to 
be  admitted  into  Greenwich  Hospital,  the  man 
died  in  Greenwich,  in  the  room  of  a  mess- 
mate of  his,  that  was  a  pensioner  in  Green- 
wich Hosoital,  he  died  with  twenty  years  ser- 
vitude in  his  pocket,  which  I  can  produce ;  he 
bad  been  at  the  Admiralty  between  the  exar 
minations,  they  examine  but  once  in  three 
BMmths,  and  he  (between  the  examinations) 
dic^  and  did  not  get  admittance  into  the  Hos- 
J^ital.  I  don't  mean  to  bring  any  charge 
against  anj^  persoi^  for  that  it  nught  oe  an  ac- 
cideQtal  thing,  andf  I  believe  it  was. 

How  man^  examinations  do  they  go  through 
at  tiie  Admiralty  ? — ^I  cannot  say  as  to  that ;  I 
believe  but  one,  on  the  first  Thursday  in  the 
quarter. 

How  many  pensioners  are  lodged  in  the 
Hospital? — Two  thousand  one  hundred  and 
ttcty-nine,  besides  nurses  and  boys. 

Do  you  ever  remember  a  time  when  more 
weie  kdged  lii  the  Hospital  than  now  ?«-I  be- 
lieve thefe  never  were  more. 

VOL  XXI.  * 


Then  where  is  the  difference  between  one 
time  and  another  ?  if  there  is  always  stifiicient 
for  this  purposoy  and  there  never  was  more, 
the  waras  of  the  pensioners  might  be  as  well 

given  up  for  other  purposes  as  not? — It  would 
old  more  pensioners,  fifty  more,  if  those  ca- 
bins were  sivenup  for  ttiat  purpose;  when  I 
came  into  the  Hospital,  there  were  not  above 
1,500  pensioners,  they  are  continually  in- 
creasing; as  the  funds  of  the  Hospital  in« 
crease,  so  the  pensioners  increase,  because  I 
humbly  imagme,  there  are  always  objects 
sufficient;  we  have  500  outpensioners  now. 

Where  was  the  mischief  m  taking  off  48  or 
50  of  these  cabins  of  the  pensioners,  when  the 
reminder  of  the  Hospital  was  more  than  suffi* 
cient  to  lodge  all  the  pensioners  in  it? — ^There 
are  more  than  500  out-pensioners  now,  I  dare 
say,  every  man  of  them  would  be  glad  to  get 
into  the  Hospital  if  they  could. 

Ai:e  they  out-pensioners  from  choice,  or 
how  is  that? — ^Tne  one  has  7/.  a  year,  the 
other  has  a  much  better  establishment. 

How  many  out-pensioners  are  there  now  ?■<— 
It  is  uncertain  to  say  now ;  I  believe  about 
500 ;  some  of  them  go  to  the  East-Indies  and 
abrc»d ;  it  is  difficult  to  ascertain  them. 

How  many  men  might  be  admitted,  if  those 
out-pensioners  were  to  be  received  ? — If  those 
gentiemen  I  have  named  were  removed,  I 
suppose  the  Hospital  would  contain  200  more. 

But  if  they  were  removed,  would  there  be 
room  to  lodge  so  many  more  pensioners  con- 
veniently ? — If  the  persons  that  have  no  right 
to  Greenwich  Hospital  were  removed,  tiiere 
would  be  room  for  a  great  many  more  than 
there  are  now. 

The  eleven  following  miestions  were  asked  by 
the  Earloi  5andzzHcA. 

Do  you  mean  that  all  those  apartments  <^ 
the  Hospital  have  been  cabins  formerly? — 
No,  I  do  ^not  mean  to  explain  myself  in  that 
manner. 

Have  these  cabins  been  taken  away  from 
men  that  inhabited' them? — ^Yes,  about  48. 

About  48  have  been  taken  away.  Was  the 
number  of  pensioners  dismissed  when  they 
were  taken  away  ? — I  don't  saV  that  they  have 
been  turned  out  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  but 
there  have  been  so  many  less  admitt^. 

Less  admitted  ?  there  is  a  certa^  number 
established :  when  those  cabins  were  taken 
away  to  be  fitted  up  for  roooks  for  the  officers, 
whether  all  the  pensioners  had  not  been  ad- 
mitted?— ^Noboay  has  been  turned  out  of  the 
Hospital,  but  those  apartments  have  been  de- 
stroyed, and  other  apartments  mad^  up  for 
pensioners. 

If  those  officers  were  t.umed  out  of  tfiit 
Hospital,  must  not  lodgings  be  taken  for  theih 
in  the  town,  or  somewhere  else? — ^No>  b^ 
cause  I  don't  understand  that  they  have 
any  right  to  the  establishment,  those  clerks 
that  Iwve  not  been  at  sea. 
«  Suppose  they  bad  been  all  seamen,  you  wiU, 
%llow;'  I  iuppose,  that  it  is  A«9«Maiy  to  hava 


m 


IS  GEORGE  III.  Tie  Case  ^Otpiain  Thomas  BmOk,        JlOi 


«oine  derks  and  people  to  co  on  vitii  the^ 
busmess  of  the  Hospital  ?-— ^ ;  bat  I  donH 
tNink  that  a  charity  like  Greenwich  Hoflnital, 
should  be  incumbca^  with  people  that  nave 
never  been  at  sea  in  their  lives. 
.  But  supposing  those  clerks  were  all  seamen, 
then  are  they,  or  are  they  not,  necessary  for 
(tarrying  on  the  business  of  the  Hospital? — 
The  business  of  Greenwich  Hospital  cannot 
be  carried  on  without  clerks ;  but  there  is  such 
^  number  of  landmen  lodged  in  the  Hospital, 
that  they  out-number  the  sea  officers  in  pro- 
portbn,  because  those  twent^six  or  twenty- 
Beven  are  more  than  we  have  captains  or  lieu- 
tenants, or  naval  officers,  in  the  Hospital. 

Does  not  a  man  who  lias  been  at  sea  take 
up  as  much  room  in  a  bed,  or  in  an  apartment, 
as  a  man  who  has  not  been  at  sear— One  of 
these  men  take  up -six,  nay,  ten  times  as  much 
room  as  a  common  pensioner. 

But  a  pensioner  or  a  clerk,  being  a  seaman, 
take;?  up  as  much  room  as  a  landman,  does  he 
not  ? — One  of  those  clerks  takes  up  much  more 
room. 

You  were  asked  by  the  noble  lord,  whe- 
ther one  man  does  not  take  up  as  much  room 
as  another  f — Certainly  so. 

Did  the  taking  away  these  fifty  cabins  leave 
less  room  for  the  pensioners  than  formerly  ? — 
Certainly. 

Earl  of  Chetter^ld.  How  came  you  in  your 
letter,  afler  the  fire,  to  desire  that  a  lodging 
might  be  appointed  for  you ;  afler  that 
fire  you  say  there  was  room  for  all  the  burnt 
««t  pensioners,  and  for  you  into  the  bargain  ? 
«— In  the  first  place,  the  service  has  required 
the  aid  and  assistance  of  a  great  numo^of 
j>ensioners  from  Greenwich  Hospital;  I  did 
Hiyselfprocure  950or300men  to  fit  out  the 
dinerent  ships  in  the  river;  when,  befi>re  my 
return  from  Briehthelmstone  last  year,  they 
oould  not  raise  above  40;  the  men  burnt  out 
are,  I  apprehend,  lodged  in  their  cabins; 
there  are  about  SOO  more  have  leave  to  lie  out 
of  the  Hospital  with  their  wives  and  families; 
and  I  conclude,  of  course,  that  those  men's 
beds  are  occupied  who  lie  out. 

How  came  you  to  write  such  a  letter  from  a 
conclusion  ?  How  many  cabins  were  destroyed 
by  the  fire?*— I  was  not  in  office  then;  about 
S50, 1  imadne,  or  900. 

If  the  clerks  lodged  ouL  would  not  their 
Jodginsbe  liable  to  be  paid  for  by  the  cheir 
rity  F—There  is  no  such  establishment. 

If  the  handsome  and  spacious  apartments 
which  are  allotted  to  these  gentlemen  were 
qontracted,  so  as  to  give  them  a  decent  md 
convenient  habitation,  would  not  the  Hospi- 
tal, upon  such  an  alteration  as  that,  be  able  to 
contam  a  great  maiiy  more  pensioners? — ^It 
would  be  veiy  difiKcult  to  contract  some  of 
"those  apartments,  unless  you  put  the  officers 
«nly  upon  onefioor ;  that  part  of  the  building 
vras  intended  originally  as  a  palace;  it  was 
not  finished  in  snug  small  apartments. 
•  Then  I  imderstwd  you  it  woukl  be  diffi- 
c^)^  gr  retf  lacQaveuenty  to  convert  some  of 


tiiMe  apartments  into  penakmenf  wavds  or 
cabins?— -Some  of  thase  spartments  might  be 
easily  converted  into  apaitmenla  m  the 
lieutenants  who  otcapy  wuds,  and  then  the 
pe&sionen  xnight  be  (mt  into  their  apartments, 
which  were  intended  for  wuds. 

They  ooold  raAke  audi  an  alteration  to  make 
it  convenient  for  the  officers? — ^Yes. 

And  what  doyoathink  micht  be  the  nrnn- 
her  of  pensioners  that  might  be  added  to  tlie 
Hospital  ?— Fifty.  Some  of  them  might  bt 
altered  in  a  short  time  and  at  a  little  expence. 

And  should  you  have  room  enoueb  tnemtb 
lodge  the  officers  who  are  lodted  there  at 
present  ? — ^No ;  I  speak  of  the  derks,  who  I 
think  have  no  right  to  lo<^  there  at  all. 

Have  there  not  been  oonsiderabie  enlarge- 
ments made  to  the  apartments  of  several 
of  these  officers  ?— Yes,  some  ad<fitional  apart- 
ments. 

Have  they  been  considerable ;  and  to  what 
an;ount? — ^In  1771  or  177S,  eleven  cabins 
were  taken  away  to  accommodate  Mr.  Ibbet- 
son ;  I  complained  of  it  to  the  lords  of  the  Ad- 
miralty, and  that  was  redressed. 

I  want  to  know  what  have  beoiumedresfl* 
ed  ? — The  secretary's  derk,  the  derk  of  the 
cheque's  clerk,  tfie  steward's  derk,  have  had 
apartments,  which  have  not  been  redressed. 
.  Are  those  apartments  taken  fiom  the  pen* 
sioners'  wards  ? — ^Most  of  them  were. 

Were  the  additions  to  the  steward's  deilt 
taken  from  the  pensbners' wards? — ^No;  that 
was  a  part  taken  in  the  new  buildins  that 
would  have  lodged  a  lieutenant  very  well. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich,  Whether  I  did  not 
myself  make  it  my  business  to  have  Mr. 
Ibbetson's  cabins  immediately  restored  to  the 
pensioners?— I  had  the  honour  to  lay  that 
complaint  before  your  lordship  at  the  Admi- 
ralty; I  waited  all  day ;  I  haa  no  answer  of 
any  sort  directly  or  indirectly,  and  never  knew 
that  the  cabins  were  to  be  restored  till  I  saw 
them  putting  up  again. 

The  Earl  of  Sandmkh.  1  have  not  had  an 
answer ;  m  v  question  was,  whether  you  doni 
know  that  the  moment  I  heard  of  these  cabins 
bcong  pulled  down  I  made  it  iny  business  to 
call  a  general  court,  and  ordered  them  to  be 
put  up  again  in  three  weeks  ?— They  were  put 
up  again. 

The  Earl  of  &miMcA.  And  you  don't  know 
that  I  ordered  it?— No. 

Pray  do  you  know  whether  the  revenue  of 
the  Hospital  will  bear  the  additbn  of  more 
pensioners  than  are  in  at  this  time  ? — I  believe, 
if  there  was  the  same  sort  of  frugality  in  everjr 
other  department  in  the  expences  of  the  Hoa- 
pital  that  is  held  out  towards  the  pensionerau 
It  would:  the  directors  are  reserved  ami 
sparing  in  every  thing  that  concerns  the  pep- 
sioners,  such  as  their  shoes  and  stodcings;  in 
every  article  concerning  the  pensioners ;  and 
in  my  hinnble  opinion^  gfpai  part  of  the  rev^ 
nue  of  the  Hospital  is  Ind  oqt  i(^  mKOj  mme* 
cessary  alterations,  reparations  and  fautldingi^ 
when  we  have  not  money  to  pay  fot  it. 


US]       rupeeOng  iks  ABy«2  Hotpikd  ai  Grtmxidu        A.  D.  177^. 


[16» 


Ai  IXky  I  defiketo  ioiow  whctker  the  re- 
feawB  of  Ike  fiospUal  wiU  bear  soore  pea* 
•McntiiKi  are  bow  in  k  ? — I  can't  pretend 
to  iBSwer  that  question  fn^ciaely,  the  ex* 
poice  of  the  pensioQera  now  is  SOf.  or  dSt. 

rr  BDapi  per  scummy  more  than  it  was,  and 
fosttively  say  the  necessaries  have  been 


Dd  von  know  that  any  oMMiey  has  been  ap- 
)^ied  tor  to  parhamoit  this  year  and  the  last 
towards  the  support  of  Greenwkfa  Hospital  ? 
—I  have  not  seen  the  votes  to  know  what 
has  been  done  this  year;  but  I  beheve  in  the 
last  thiee  years  they  have  had  15^000/.  6,000/. 
4filOOLmA&fiQOl. 

I  think  you  said  there  had  been  about  fi)rty* 
dg^t  cabins  taken  firom  the  peasionera  since 
your  aaesMMnr^  for  the  increase  of  the  apart- 
ments of  dwnent  officeis;  did  you  say  so  or 
not? — I  don't  8]^eak  exactly  to  lbrty«eighty 
birt^maboiits,  It inighibe  twoor three  more 

W«re  there  additional  officers  aooonuno- 
dated^  that  it  was  necessary  to  take  these 
cabins  ? — There  was  no  c^&cer  acoommo^ed, 
but  tbeee  clerks,  in  that  part 

1¥faere  were  the  clerks  lodged  before?--^ 
8eme  of  them  had  iv>  lodgingis  in  the  Hos- 
pital befiwe. 

Was  the  business  of  the  Hospital  carried  on 
as  wdl  before  as  it  has  been  since? — ^Much 
betftar  ;  there  was  qc^  then  that  Action  or  party 
of  lanwien  that  there  is  at  present. 

Was  the  duty  of  the  Hospital  carried  on 
faettev  Off  woffse? — Fidlaswell;  because tlury 
have  introduced  net  only  themselves  but  their 
wives  and  &milies. 

Whether  these  forty-eight  cabins,  or  there- 
abouts^ were  taken  for  the  nurpose  of  putting 
isk  then  fresh  offioersy  or  cierkisy  or  servants, 
or  were  they  for  enlarging  the  apartments  of 
those  gentlemen  ?-^I  toUcvo  the  greater  part 
:ivere  tor  entire  new  apartments;  there  was 
one  apartment  that  was  appropriated  for  the 
we  01  the  governor's  clerk.  In  conseauence 
of  so  many  c^luns  being  taken  away  oefore, 
there  was  not  room  for  the  pensioners,  and 
then  that  apartment  he  had  was  converted 
into  ealMn%  and  another  apartment  given  him 
in  the  new  building. 

.  Where  were  the  chief  of  those  clerks  and 
people  l<4ged  before  those  forty-eieht  cabins 
were  applied  to  their  use? — ^1  don't  know  that 
they  had  any  lodgings  but  what  they  paid  for 
in  the  town  on  their  own  account.  For  in- 
staDce»  the  secretary's  clerk ;  he  has  no  busi- 
iiessin  Greenwich  Hospital  but  once  in  Uiree 
weeks  for  about  two  hours;  the  boards  of  di- 
rectors are  prmcipally  held  in  London. 

You  wereaskeci  if  there  is  not  a  fixed  num- 
ber of  pensioners  in  Greenwich  Hospital?  Do 
vou  know  of  any  fixed  number? — I  donH 
Kncyw  of  any  fixed  number,  according  to  the 
teem  we  have;  the  men  haveinerea^  con- 
sideiab^. 

Is  there  not  always  a  certain,  fixed  number 
fi^m^  u|K)ii  theeitabliihmeQttbeie?— Ac 


cording  to  the  number  of  cabins  we  have  to 
accoinmodate  them. 

This  goes  to  the  former  point;  you  don't 
build  cabins, 'do  you,  unless  the  revenue  wiH 
pay  the  biuldii^  of  the  cabins,  and  for  the 
nouurishment  of  the  inhabitants  of  those 
cabins  ?  Do  you  think  it  for  the  advantage  of 
the  Hospital  to  lay  out  mon^  in  building 
cabins,  when  you  can't  afford  to  mid  provisions 
to  maintain  the  people  that  are  to  inhabit 
them  ? — ^I  think  it  would  be  much  more  for 
the  benefit  of  Greenwidi  Hospital  to  find 
cabins  for  pensioners,  than  to  lay  out 
1,500Z.  at  one  stroke,  for  cleaning  the  Painted- 
mdl,  and  1,300/.  for  obtaimng  a  new  charter. 

You  said,  heretofore,  several  of  the  clerks 
were  lodged  out  of  the  Hospital;  I  should  be 
glad  to  know,  whether  they  had  any  increase 
of  salary  to  provide  lodgings  ?  Or  were  lodg- 
ings provided  and  paid  for  out  of  the  Hospi- 
tars  funds  ? — ^I  beUcve  one  steward's  clerk  had 
a  httle  matter  allowed  him,  to  pay  for  a  lodg- 
ing in  town.  In  that  case,  neithet  his  u- 
muy,  nor  children,  nor  servants,  were  entailed 
on  the  Hospital,  which  is  a  great  expence  to  it. 

When  he  got  an  apartment  in  the  Hospital^ 
was  that  little  taken  off? — Certainly. 

You  say  by  receiviiu;  the  wives  and  fomi- 
lies  into  the  Hospital  that  they  become  a 
burthen  upon  the  Hospital.  Are  they  maii>- 
tained  by  the  Hospital  ?— The  surgeon  and 
apothecary's  bills  run  high ;  they  are  entitled 
to  the  advice  of  those  persons;  that  entaib  not 
only  one  but  ten  persons,  perhaps.  They  are 
allowed  several  other  little  things,  beside 
their  apartments;  and  small  beer  without 
excise,  and  all  those  little  kind  of  things. 

The  Earl  of  Cketteffield.  Has  your  fiimily 
been  any  expence  to  tHe  Hospital  ? — By  the  n^ 
stitution  of  the  Hospital,  every  officer's  fomily 
is  allowed  those  indulgences.  • 

Was  your  family  any  additional  expence  to 
the  Hospital? — I  believe  not  more  than  any 
other  oflScer;  1  believe  a  great  deal  less  than 
anv  other  officer's  family  in  the  Hospital. 

If  I  understand  you  right,  those  additional 
officers  that  were  lodged  m  the  town,  are  lodg- 
ed in  the  Hospital  now;  by  which  means  they 
have  remov^  about  forty-eieht  cabins,  or 
thereabouts  ? — ^l  don't  know  wnere  they  lodff- 
ed  before ;  they  did  not  lodge  in  the  Hospital; 
some  lodged  in  London,  some  in  Deptford. 

You  have  been  asked,  whether  it  would  be 
advantageous  to  the  Hospital  to  have  more 
cabins  £an  thev  have  a  fund  for  providing  for 
the  people?  You  were,  I  think,  asked  that 
question  ? — ^I  was. 

What  was  your  answer  to  that? — Certainly, 
I  think,  paruament  would  not  besrudge  a 
small  matter  to  the  seamen  of  the  Itospital,  if 
the  revenue  should  foil  a  little  short 

If  I  misunderstood  you,  you  will  set  me 
right.  Did  you  not  say  you  think  there  might 
be  a  great  many  more  pensioners  maidtaiiMd, 
if  there  was  a  piroper  economy  in  the  Hospital? 
— ^I  do  think  a  considerable  number  more;  I 
think  so  sincerely  in  my  conscience* 


V 


167] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Que  ofCaptaim  Themat 


[168 


And  in  that  case,  if  there  were  more  pen- 
sioners, would  not  the  additional  cabins,  that 
are  now  given  to  those  officers  and  servants, 
he  wanted  for  them  ?--Certainly . 

May  it  not  be  an  inducement  to  those  offi- 
cers. Knowing  they  would  be  turned  out  of 
their  cabins,  not  to  increase  the  number  of 
pensioners? — ^It  does  not  depend  upon  those 
officers. 

If  the  fund  was  increased  for  the  pensioners, 
might  there  not  be  more  rooms  made  in  the 
Hospital  for  pensioners? — Certainly  there 
mignt. 

Without  removing  those  officers  you  com- 
plain of? — I  don't  know  that  there  could. 

Was  there  any  room,  before  tiie  fire,  to  put 
up  more  cabins,  without  removing  any  of  the 
Clerks  out  of  the  Hospital  ? — I  believe  not,  un- 
less the  infirmary  were  to  be  filled ;  we  alwavs 
keep  a  little  spare  room,  in  case  of  any  epide- 
mic distemper. 

How  many  spare  rooms  do  you  keep? — 
Thirty  or  forty  cabins,  I  believe,  firom  me- 
mory. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich',  Were  not  some  of 
those  rooms  taken  away,  and  had  cabins  put 
in  them,  since  I  have  l>een  at  the  Admiralty  ? 
— There  have  been  some  fire  places  taken 
.away,  to  make  more  room  at  a  very  consider- 
able expence. 

But  has  it  been  done?— Yes;  but  if  the 
clerks  had  been  removed,  it  would  have  been 
done  without  any  expence  hardly. 

Don't  the  out^pensioners  come  up  here 
every  year,  to  receive  their  pay  ?— No,  at  their 
own  pleasure,  as  it  suits  them;  sometimes 
they  make  a  voyage  to  the  East  or  West  In- 
dies, and  then  come  and  get  Uieir  money,  or  it 
is  paid  to  their  attomies. 

Suppose  they  are  in  England,  are  they  not 
obliged  to  come  and  receive  their  pension? — 
Not  unless  they  choose  it;  their  money  is  re- 
mitted to  their  attomies.  * 

Without  their  comins  up?— Yes,  without 
the  expence  or  trouble  ofcoming  up. 

There  are  out-pensioners  live  as  far  off  as 
Liverpool?— In  all  parts  of  the  kingdom. 

Do  you  know  any  at  Liverpool  ? — Not  parti- 
cularly. 

But  you  say  there  are  some  who  would  wish 
to  be  m-pensbners?^I  believe  the  greater 
part  of  them. 

-     Have  they  some  difficulty  to  receive  their 
money? — ^I  don't  believe  they  have  any  diffi- 
•  culty  to  get  it ;  it  is  always  paid  regularly. 

You  tmnk  it  an  advantage  to  be  an  in-pen- 
aioner? — ^Yes. 

How  many  out-pensioners  do  you  think  there 
are  now^  that  would  wish  to  be  in-pensioners  ? 
— I  dare  say  more  than  half,  three  quarters 
perhaps  *  there  are  very  few  but  what  would 
wish  to  be  in  Greenwich  Hospital.  j 

•  How  man^  in-pensioners  do  you  think  tiiere 
are  at  this  tune,  that  are  not  seamen?— I  be- 
lieve they  are  all  8eafaring4nen ;  I  don't  know 
my  abuse  in  that  particiUar;  I  don't  know  of 
anysuch* 


Whether  it  is  necessary  for  an  out-pensioner 
to  come  to  London  to  receive  his  pay  ? — ^No,  I 
believe  it  b  not;  they  have  it  remitted  to 
them,  with  all  fiM^ity,  to  the  difierent  collec- 
tors where  they  happen  to  live. 

Inform  the  committee  what  mone^  is  given 
to  the  pensioners  of  the  Hospital,  instead  of 
provisions? — There  is  a  great  deal  of  money 

F'ven  to  the  pensioners  instead  of  provisions, 
believe  to  at  least  half  the  pensioners.  We 
have  near  9,400,  including  pensioners,  nuraes, 
and  boys,  and  I  dont  think  we  feed,  upon  an 
average,  1,000. 

Please  to  repeat  what  you  have  just  said  ? — 
We  have  S,  169  pensioners,  1  SO  nurses,  and  X40 
boys ;  out  of  that  number,  amounting  to  about 
SS,400,  we  feed  about  1,000. 
-  What  are  the  persons  that  have  mon^,  in 
what  manner,  and  on  what  account? — Inere 
is  first  of  all  a  list,  that  is  called  the  money- 
list;  that  money-list  was  originally  the  fiill 
value  of  the  pensioners'  allowance,  when  that 
was  first  instituted,  how  long  ago  I  can't  tell ; 
I  believe  it  took  place  about  the  year  1730,  or 
since  perhaps,  I  cannot  say ;  the  nrovisions  of 
a  pensioner  were  then  estimated  at  6d.  per 
diem,  I  consider  it  now  worth  Td,  or  T^d. ; 
they  are  paid  only  td.  that  is  a  saving  to  the 
Hospital. 

How  is  that  granted?  Is  it  granted  to  every 
pensioner  who  chooses  to  ask  for  it? — ^It  is  a 
sort  of  favour  granted  by  the  directors  of  the 
Hospital ;  there  was  a  ereat  abuse  in  that,  but 
now  it  is  only  done  by  ue  recommendation  of 
the  phvsician  and  surgeon;  that  list  has  in- 
creased to  veiy  near  400, 1  believe. 

And  at  the  recommendation  of  the  surgeon, 
money  is  ei ven  to  these  pensioners  f  What  is  it 
given  in  lieu  of? — ^AU  kinds  of  provisions 
whatever;  it  makes  them  a  sortot  out-pea- 
sioners,  for  Uiey  don't  even  muster. 

Do  they  lie  in  the  Hospital  ? — ^Yes ;  uidess 
the  council  give  them  leave  to  lie  out,  which  is 
sometimes  granted. 

They  receive  sixpence  without  any  deduc- 
tion ? — ^Yes,  without  any  deduction  wnatever. 

How  does  it  appear  that  this  is  a  saving  to 
the  Hospital?  Is  7 id,  charged?— No,  but  if 
they  were  victualled,  it  woidd  certainly  cost 
that. 

Does  that  saving  g»  to  the  charity  stock?^ — 
I  believe  it  is  not  apmied  to  that  purpose. 

What  were  the  aouses  that  occasioned  that 
alteration  that  you  say  has  happened  there, 
that  now  it  is  only  upon  the  recommendation 
of  the  surgeon  and  physician? — That  list  in- 
creased so  much,  that  it  took  the  men  off  the 
butier's  aijid  the  chalk-off  list,  which  are  ap- 
propriated to  the  purposes  of  the  charity :  as 
the  charity  suffered  by  their  beinjg  taken  m>m 
the  butler's  and  the  chalk-ott  list,  it  was 
thought  necessaiy  to  put  some  restraint  upon 
it. 

What  number  have  now  the  money  allowed 
in  lieu  of  provi»ons? — From  360, 1  believe,  to 
400. 

What  is  the  chalk^off  list?'-It  i3  a  li«t  tiifei 


l6Sf]         rnpecting  ike  RoyiU  HospUal  at  Greenwich.         A.  Vf}  177d« 


[170 


mry  man  indiscriminately,  upon  liis  first  ad- 
missJOD  into  Greenwich  Hospital,  is  put  on 
whether  he  likes  it  or  not;  in  short,  they 
dim't  ask  his  consent,  hut  they  give  him 
money  in  lieu  of  meat  and  cheese  twice  a 
week ;  that  instead  of  having  meat  five  times 
a  week,  they  have  it,  upon  an  averajge,  about 
three  times ;  tbere  is  a  profit  arising  from  that, 
moe  fifth  part  of  the  original  contract  price  is 
deducted ;  the  profit  gOes  to  the  charity  stock. 

How  much  are  they  allowed  ? — There  is  one 
fifth  part  d^ucted  Irom  the  contract  price. 

Upon  what  articles? — Upon  the  meat,  and 
upon  the  cheese ;  for  instance,  they  get  about 
^d,  fin-  a  pound  of  meat,  which  costs  perhaps 

What  becomes  of  that?  Is  the  meat  fiir- 
mdied  by  the  butcher  and  then  sold  again  }-^ 
No,  it  is  not  fiimished. 

And  then  is  that  set  down,  as  so  much  fur- 
nished by  the  Hospital? — ^No,  they  only  set 
down  what  is  received,  certainly. 

How  is  the  difference  applied  to  the  charity 
stock? — The  men  are  paid  less  money  for 
their  provisions  than  the  contract,  and  the 
dUerence  between  what  they  pay  the  men, 
and  what  would  have  been  otherwise  paid  to 
the  ocMitnictor,  is  appropriated  to  the  charity 
stock. 

And  that  is  instead  of  meat  and  cheese? — 
Yes.  . 

For  how  many  days  in  a  week? — ^Upon  an 
average,  about  twice  in  a  week  ;  in  order  to 
induce  liiese  men  to  submit  to  that  reeulatien, 
tiiiey  are  allowed  broth  made  out  of  me  other 
men's  meat;  so  that  they  have  that  indul- 
gence alternately,  because  every  man  alike  is 
subject  to  that  regulation. 

Are  all  the  men  in  the  Hospital  indiscrimi- 
nately subject  to  this? — ^Yes,  except  those 
upon  the  money-list  and  the  butler's  list :  I 
was  going  to  say  that  by  that  regulation  the 
broth  is  much  impoverished,  because  we  make 
broth  for  400  men  that  do  not  boil  meat  in 
the  copper,  which  impoverishes  the  broth,  and 
«ich  poor  broth  brings  disgrace  upon  the  Hos- 
pital. 

What  is  the  butler's  list  ? — The  men  on  that 
list  sell  all  their  allowance,  except  beer;  they 
cannot  sell  that,  because  it  would  j>robably 
bring  excise  upon  the  Hospital ;  besides,  it  is 
better  than  they  can  buy  tor  the  money  Uioy 
.would  receive,  thero  being  no  excise  upon  it. 
There  is  one-fifUi  part  likewise  deducted  from 
the  or^nal  price  of  the  rest  of  their  allowance, 
which  IS  applied  to  the  charity  stock. 
*    What  is  the  consequence  of  this?   Do  you 
.im^ane  that  it  b  nroductiveof  any  disorder  or 
dninkenness  in  tne  Hospital? — ^It  causes  a 
scene  of  dissijpation  and  drunkenness  through- 
out the  Hospital;  for  seamen  are  like  children, 
they  have  little  or  nathought  for  themselves. 

Have  there  been  any  complaints  made  upon 
that  subject  to  the  proper  officers  ?— Hie  board 
of  ^ferectors  themselves  took  notice  of  this 
scene  of  drunkenness  and  irregularity  in  the 
Ho^Mtaly  and  desir^  the  couacil  to  enquire 


into  the  cause  of  it;  tiie  council  did  ao^  ayidre- 
ported  to  the  board  of  directors  unanimously, 
that  they  thought  itowii^  to  the  chalk-off  list 
that  occasion^  all  that  drunkenness  and  iire- 
gularity  in  the  Hospital. 

Be  so  good  as  to  point  out  the  minutes  of 
the  council  upon  that  matter? — It  is  in  the 
minutes  of  the  council  of  the  9th  of  August, 
1776. 

Mr.  Ball  (Clerk  of  the  Council)  called  in. 

Read  the  minutes  of  the  council  of  9th  Au- 
gust, 1776. 

Vlr,  Ball  read  the  following  Minute : 

^  A  minute  of  the  board  of  directors  com- 
plaining of  the  irregularity  of  the  pensioners, 
was  laia  before  the  council,  who  were  unaqi- 
mously  of  opinion,  that  the  money  list  and  but- 
ler's fistp  smce  the  great  increase  of  pen- 
sioners, IS  now  become  necessary  and  expe- 
dient, having  no  place  at  present  to  accommo- 
date them  at  the  tables,  where  only  Ji,<250  can 
commodiously  dine;  besides  which,  it  contri- 
butes to  the  ease  and  satisfaction  of  those  who 
have  families,  by  dining  with  them,  and  also 
from  the  confinement  of  attending  twice  a  day 
at  the  hall  for  then:  provisions.  That  the 
chalking  off  the  pensioners,  and  ^ving  money 
indiscriminately  to  all  upon  their  first  amis- 
sion, is  not  only  contrary.to  the  establishment, 
but  injurious  to  the  health  and  morals  of  the 
pensioners,  and  is  attended  with  many  incon^ 
veniencies,  improprieties,  and  irregularities; 
and  the  council  are  unanimously  of  opinion, 
that  the  said  custom  ou^ht  to  l>e  totally  abb- 
lished,  there  being  suffiaent  room  in  the  din- 
ing halls  to  dine  all  the  chalk-off  men.'' 

You  keep  the  minutes  of  the  council? — 
Yes. 

You  don't  keep  the  minutes  of  the  court  of 
directors? — No,  Mr.  Ibbetson  keeps  them. 

Mr.  Ibbetson  (Secretary  to  the  Directors)  call^ 

edin. 

Do  you  know  of  any  answer  that  was  made 
to  the  minutes  of  the  council  of  the  9th  of 
August,  1776? — I  donH  know  of  any  answer 
that  was  made  immediately  to  the  council 
upon  that  business. 

Were  any  steps  taken  in  consequence  of  it  ? 
— ^I  will  read  to  your  lordships  what  passed 
upon  that  occasion. 

<«  On  the  3d  of  Au^st,  1776,  the  board 
takine  notice  of  many  inconveniencies  which 
attend  the  practice  of  the  pensioners  selling 
their  provisions,  and  also  that  of  their  being 
chalked  off,  and  money  given  them  in  Ueu  oT 
their  meat  upon  admission  into  the  Hospital 
on  account  thereof,  instead  of  having  the  al- 
lowance of  meat,  according  to  the  establish- 
ment five  days,  they  have  it  onlv  in  their 
turns,  three  days  in  uie  week,  and  improper 
uses  made  of  the  money  so  received  by  them 
in  Jieu,  &c.  &c. 

**  Resolved,  that  Uie  council  be  deured  to 
report  their  opinion  to  this  board  on  Saturday 


171] 


18  GEORGE  UL  \        The  Que  qfO^ain  Thomas  BaiOUy        [172 


next,  if  the  aboii^iiag  tbecustom  of  cfaAtkwS" 
off,  and  giving  such  money  in  lieu,  which  n^ 
pears  ptoduGtive  of  so  many  irregiuanlieSy  &c. 
-win  be  attended  with  any,  and  what  impro- 
prieties and  inoonveniencies.  That  the  board 
meet  on  SaUirdaTf  next  to  take  this  matter  into 
consideration. 

,**  On  Saturday  followin^^  the  lOth  of  Au- 
gust, a  minute  of  the  cotmcil  of  the  9th  instant 
was  read,  in  answer  to  a  reference  (torn  this 
board,  whereby  it  appears,  that  they  are  una- 
Bimously  of  opinion  the  money  aiui  butler's 
lists  should  be  continued^  but  the  custom  of 
chalking  off  should  be  totally  abolished,  to 
prevent  their  making  improper  uses  of  the 
money  so  received  by  them,  in  lieu  of  meat 
and  cheese.  The  fartner  conmderation  of  the 
money  and  butler's  hsts,  and  chalking  off  the 
penskmersy  are  postponed/' and  nothing  seems 
to  be  done  upon  that  occasion. 

My  lonk,  I  was  absent  through  illness; 
and  the  motives  of  it,  and  how  it  came  to  be 
dropt,  I  cannot  say,  Anther  than  the  minutes 
say. 

Was  there  no  iiulher  step  taken  upon  it? — 
No. 

That  practice  continues  to  this  day  ?— There 
has  no  alteration  taken  place  that  I  know  of. 

[Bftr.  Ibbetson  withdrew.] 

Captain  Baillie  called  in  agaii^ 

Whether  you  know  who  instituted  this  cus- 
tom of  the  chalk-off  list — In  whose  time  was 
it  instituted  ? — ^It  was  before  my  time. 

Don't  you  know  who  vras  steward  of  the 

rHosnttal  when  it  was  instituted? — I  cannot 

weak  iroon  oath  to  tiiat,  1  believe  it  was  Mr. 

Bell,  a  tartaer  steward — ^it  was  done  before  I 

came  into  the  Hospital. 

Did  you  never  see  it  in  a  book  that  it  was 
Mr.  Bell? — I  have,  in  a  book  lately  published, 
called  '*  A  State  of  Facts,"  but  I  don't  know 
positively  that  that  is  the  fact,  because  I  see 
It  there  in  print.     [Captain  IbiiHie  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Ibbetson  called  in  again. 

Whether  or  not  you  think  that  the  giving  of 
mon^  instead  of  the  aUowuK:e  of  meal,  has 
been  the  means  of  increasins  drunkenness, 
idleness,  and  dissipation  in  the  Uospital  ? — For 
one,  I  cannot  conceive  that  it  has,  because,  if 
the  pensioners  had  been  permitted  to  eo  on, 
as  they  did  at  the  time  that  that  regiuation 
was  made,  which  is  now  upwards  of  50  years 
a^ ;  it  was  made,  I  tiunk,  in  the  year  1725,  it 
did  appear  then,  and  appears  upon  the  mi- 
nutes, I  believe,  on  the  books,  which  are  now 
upon  your  lordships'  table,  tlmt  the  reason  of 
wing  it  up  was,  tnat  the  pensioners  at  that 
time  took  their  provisions  and  sold  them  in 
the  neighbouring  villages  about  Greenwich, 
and  that  they  got  for  it  much  less  than  when 
that  regulation  afterwards  took  place,  to  sdl  it 
tothebutier;  ifthey  can  make  money  of  pro- 
visions, they  will,  with  that  money,  undoubt- 
edly buy  drmk^  if  they  are  inclined  to  do  so ; 
the  only  question  b,  whctiier  they  may  not  be 


enabled  to  buy  more,  because  they  have  a 
greater  allowance  for  it  from  the  Hospital. 

I  think  the  allowance  now  is  thi*ee  oxen  a 
week  on  beef  days? — ^I  don*t  )aaQw  any  thing 
of  the  detail  of  that. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich.  Do  you  know  who 
was  the  contriver  of  this  chalk-off  list? — Of 
the  money  lists,  in  general,  Mr.  Bell;  the 
chalk-off,  I  ims^gine,  is  one  of  them ;  there  is 
a  minute  that  lies  now  upon  your  lordships' 
table  of  the  general  court,  where  Mr.  Bell, 
when  he  applied  for  superannuation,  hath 
enumerated  all  the  services  that  he  had  done 
to  Greenwich  Hospital;  there  was  a  printed 
memorial  handed  about  it,  but  the  substance 
of  it  is  entered  in  these  minutes;  among 
other  things  t^t  he  took  ciedit  and  merit  for, 
was  his  having  introduced  this  r^ulation  of 
the  pensioners  being  permitted  to  take  money 
in  lieu  of  provisions,  and  he  had  a  reward  of 
.500/.  given  him  by  the  general  court  for  his 
services,  that  among  the  rest. 

(Reaas.)  ^  At  a  general  court  held  at  the 
Admiralty,  November  17;  1761,  present  lord 
Anson,  Dr.  Hay,  &c.  &c. 

''  Resolved,  That  Mr.  Bell,  the  stewaid,  wha 
through  his  l^g  service,  great  age,  and  other 
infirmities,  is  become  incapable  of  perfomung 
the  duty  of  his  office,  be  superannuated  at 
100/.  per  annum  during  his  natural  Itfe,  &c. 
and  in  consideration  of  the  great  and  beneficial 
services  following  by  him  ^ne  and  perfoimed 
to  the  Hospital  during  his  stewaraship,  the 
Court  are  pleased  to  order  and  direct,  that  a 

Satuity  or  500/.  be  given  him  as  a  reward  for 
e  flame ;"  among  uie  rest  were  the  introduc- 
tion of  the  three  money  lists. 

At  what  time  was  the  institution  of  these 
charity  boys  ? — ^I  believe  about  the  year  1785. 

I  want  io  know  how  long  sJiier  the  institu- 
tion of  these  boys  it  was,  that  Mr.  Bell  had 
planned  iJtm  scheme  that  you  have  now  read 
for  the  better  maintenance  of  these  boys? — I 
betieve  it  was  about  the  very  time  tliat  the 
first  estabMshment  of  the  charity  boys  took 
place,  that  this  regulation  took  place. 

That  you  say  was  in  the  year  17«5. — ^Ycs. 

Does  it  appear  by  the  minutes  that  you  have 
before  you  there,  that  Mr.  Bell  had  then  the 
stewarcbhip  of  the  Hospital  ? — He  was  ap- 
pointed steward  in  1719,  and  continued  in  it 
till  1761. 

If  these  three  money  lists  were  abofttshed, 
must  not  the  boys  be  turned  out  of  the  Hos- 
pital, or  must  It  not  be  paid  out  of  the  revenue 
of  the  Hospital  ? — ^In  the  year  1778,  by  an  ac- 
count I  have  in  my  hand,  the  produce  that  is 
from  the  savings  arising  from  these  regukh~ 
tions.  was  ],65S/.  14i.  S^tL 

when  was  that  court  of  directors  held, 
when  they  recommended  the  consideration  of 
this  list  to  the  council  of  the  House  ? — ^I  think 
the  3d  of  August,  1776. 

The  minute  is,  **  The  board  of  directors  ob- 
serving the  irregularity ;"  was  tiiat  an  irregu- 
larity that  happened  just  at  that  time  ? — I  have 
already  said  I  was  abaeiMi  and  ill  in  the 


175}         rt9peeHng  the  Rog&l  Uo9pi$ia  tU  Grmmcieh.        A.D.  111$^ 


[174 


try  at  tfae  time  tim  happened;  my  clerk  n 
hoe,  if  the  House  wUl  permit  him  to  etre  any 
ftftfaier  infbnnation ;  this  is  as  it  stanos  on  the 
WBuies^  and  I  don't  know  the  reasons  why 
they  did  not  go  frrUier  into  the  enmihy .  I 
fctve  a&ked  my  clerk  about  it,  and  he  says 
tbey  tfaoti^t  it  would  be  taking  too  much  off 
mn  this  chanty  fundi 

I  think  vou  are  a  director? — ^No,  I  am  se-^ 
oetary  to  the  boardof  directors. 

Are  you  one  of  the  council? — ^Yes. 

Doa*t  you  think  it  part  of  your  duty  to  be 
attentive  to  the  economy  of  the  Hospital  ? — 
Undoubtedly. 

Then  don't  you  think  that  a  saving  made, 
the  consequence  of  which  is  drunkenness  and 
inmioralityy  is  a  species  of  such  economy 
which  you  think  not  undeserving  the  atten- 
tion of  the  board  of  directors  ? — I  must  first  be 
certain  that  it  is  the  fact,  and  that  it  is  the 
occasion  of  that  drunkenness  and  disorder  that 
is  stated  ;  I  am  by  no  means  certain  that  it  is. 

Were  you  present  at  that  council  thatuna^ 
nimously  repmented  that  it  was? — I  have  al- 
leady  said  I  was  absent  at  that  time^  and  in 
the  country. 

Whether  you  imagine  that  the  unanimous 
opimoD  of  the  council  is  likely  to  be  well  or 
91-fouiidedy  are  thev  proper  judges  of  it  ? — In- 
^eed,  I  shouki  think  they  are  proper  judges ; 
It  IS  not  impossible  if  I  had  been  tnere,  that  I 
miidit  have  concurred  in  the  opinion. 

What  ore  the  different  funds  that  produces 
tiie  charity  stock  ? — The  profits  arising  on  the 
provisions  bought  of  the  pensioners,  that  is 
Iheprincipal  one. 

What  do  you  call  the  provisions  bought  of 
the  pensioners?— The  men  that  take  money 
in  lieu  of  their  provisions. 

Is  that  the  money  list  ? — No,  the  money  list 
is  a  very  inconsiderable  part,  but  this  is  out  of 
my  department  very  much,  and  there  are  peo- 
ple in  the  House  tlutt  can  ^ve  your  lordsnips 
better  information. 

Who  are  those  persons? — The  steward,  I 
should  think,  and  tne  butler,  I  am  very  sure 
will  be  able  to  give  the  House  better  infor- 
mation. 

If  these  money  lists  were  annihilated,  whe- 
ther the  muntenance  of  the  boys  must  not 
come  imoD  the  revenue  of  the  Hospital  ? — Un- 
doubteol^,  or  their  number  must  be  dimimsh- 
ed ;  tha  mcome  is  more  than  the  expence  df 
them  a  Uttle,  but  if  you  take  away  1.600^  out 
of  9,900/.  or  9,300/.  which  is  the  whole  amount 
of  that  revemie,  your  lordships  must  easily 
conceive  that  must  decrease  the  number  of 
them,  or  supplies  must  be  raised  some  otiier 
way. 

Are  not  the  savings  of  these  several  lists  as 
much  the  revenue  of  the  Hospital  as  any 
other  part  of  it? — They  certdnly  may  be  ap- 
plied to  it. 

Are  they  not  part  of  the  revenue  of  the 
Hospita],  that  is  my  question  ?•— Not  a  part  of 
the  letenue  of  the  Hospital  that  has  ever  been 
sppfied  to-aoy  other  bmmess  but  thb  of  the 
koys.  t- 


Out  ei'whosepodket comes  this  money  that 
is  80  Bavtd  ? — ^rat  of  the  money  comes  from 
shewing  the  painted  hall  and  chapel ;  that 
might  be  appned  certainly  to  the  cnamtenanct 
of  pensioners  as  well  as  the  boys  ? 

That  is  a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Hos- 
pital ? — Certainly. 

Out  of  what  revenue  comes  the  money  that 
is  saved  upon  the  Sfveral  lists  ?--Supposing 
every  man  was  to  take  up  his  provisions,  that 
saving,  which  is  now  a  profit  to  the  Hospital, 
would  be  in  the  butcher's  pocket,  by  supplying 
more  meat. 

It  might  be  in  the  butcher's  pocket,  but 
would  it  not  be  in  the  pensioners'  bellies  ^  Is 
not  the  fund  itself  the  revenue  of  the  Hospital, 
out  of  which  all  these  savings  come?-^I  dbn't 
understand  that. 

Is  it  not  the  fund  out  of  which  the  savings 
issue,  as  well  as  every  thing  else  ?  Is  not  that 
a  part  of  the  revenue  of  the  Hospital  ? — This 
is  a  saving  that  arises  from  the  allowing  the 
pensioners  a  fiflh  part  less  than  what  is  the 
real  value  of  their  provisions. 

I  will  put  it  another  way;  suppose  7s.  a 
week  was  tfae  allowance  of  the  pensioner, 
would  that  7f .  be  a  part  of  the  revenue  or  not  r 
•^Undoubtedly. 

Then  suppose  bv  a  subsequent  order,  *1j; 
out  of  this  seven  should  be  converted  to  the 
maintenance  of  the  charity  boys,  that  is  apart 
of  the  revenue  ? — ^Undoubtedly. 

Then  the  Question  I  asked  is.  Are  not  the 
savings  a  part  of  the  revenue?— They  are  part 
of  the  revenue  now  of  Greenwich  Hosplta^^ 
appUed  in  this  particular  way. 

1  wanted  then  to  understand  that,  as  the 
noble  lord  asked  if  there  had  been  no  savings ; 
then  the  bovs  must  be  maintained  out  of  the 
revenue  of  the  Hospital? — If  this  custom  was 
abolished. 

Then  you  answered  they  must  be  maintain- 
ed out  of  the  revenues  of  the  Hospital  ? — If  this 
custom  was  abolished,  this  saving  of  1,000/.  a 
year,  would  be  lost  to  Greenwich  Hospital, 
then  if  that  was  lost,  it  must  be  suppliea  out. 
of  other  revenues  of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

But  still  they  are  both  the  revenues  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  ? — I  apprehend  this  sum 
would  not  be  a  part  of  the  revenue  in  any  way» 
if  you  abolish  the  practice,  the  revenue  would 
notarise. 

Is  it  any  thing  more  than  this,  that  'out  of 
the  allowance  of  the  pensioners,  you  take  so 
much  money  and  give  it  to  the  charity  boys  ? 
— But  it  is  not  taking  it  from  the  revenue  of 
the  Hospital,  and  giviQgittothe  ch«ity  boys. 

Why,  the  whole  is  th^  revenues  of  the  Hos- 
pital ;  are  nbi  the  chari^  boys  part  of  the  ori-^ 
ginal  institution  ? — No,  the  charity  boys  are 
an  excrescence. 

Then  I  believe  you  have  not  read  the  act  of 
the  17th  of  king  Willkm,  because  I  find  in 
that  acL  they  fue  part  of  the  original  institu* 
tion?— i  can  i^ew  the  minutes  of  the  first  es- 
tablishment of  these  boys ;  the  directors  found 
that  there  were  some  little  prefits  arising  from 


175] 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  ^  Capain  Thonuu  SailUe,         [17G 


shewing  the  painted-haU,  the  mulcts  of  pen- 
sionerSy  and  meir  cheaues ;  that  it  amounted 
to  something,  and  tney  asked  the  general 
court  if  thev  might  not  apply  it  to  the  main- 
tenance of  the  sons  of  the  pensioners. 

Was  that  the  first  commencement  of  it  ? — It 
was. 

I  am  very  sorry  for  it,  for  it  was  the  original 
institution  by  that  act  of  parliament ;  the  Doys 
have  the  same  right  u^n  the  act  to  a  main- 
tenance as  the  pensioners  have;  when  were 
the  boys  established  ? — I  think  about  the  year 
1795,  I  am  not  quite  certain;  it  was  a  great 
while  after  the  institution. 

Mav  not  these  pensioners  that  are  put  upon 
the  chalk-off  list  at  their  option,  be  put  off 
of  it  whenever  they  please  ?-r-I  understand 
that  it  is  by  no  means  compulsory. 

Do  vou  know  whether  they  may  be  put  off 
upon  their  application  ? — I  understand  so. 

Suppose  they  all  received  their  provisions 
in  meat,  is  there  room  for  them  todme  P — ^No, 
I  understand  that  the  two  dining  halls  will  not 
accommodate  more  than  1,200. 

Then  to  go  a  httle  further,  how  lone  ag;o  b 
it  since  more  than  600  could  dine  P—AVithin 
6  or  7  years:  since  lord  Sandwich  has  been  at 
the  Adnuraity,  a  new  dining-hall  has  been 
fitted  up,  which  has  accomm<raated  600  more. 
'  Was  It  not  the  custom  that  600  people  dined 
in  the  hall,  and  that  they  were  obliged  to  he 
hurried  away  from  their  dinner,  ancf  then  600 
people  came  to  their  diet  in  the  same  hall  to 
dine  upon  their  table  ? — I  understand  that  to 
have  been  the  practice. 

Then  bv  whose  interposition  was  it,  that  an 
additional. hall  was  formed,  that  enabled  1,900 
people  to  dine  at  the  same  time  at  different 
tables? — I  was  absent  when  that  came  under 
consideration,  but  I  understood  it  was  firom  a 
survey  lord  Sandwich  made  of  Greenwich 
Hospital;  his  lordship  found  this  place  as 
suitable  as  the  other,  for  it  is  just  a  similar 
buildine  to  it,  and  it  was  ordered  to  be  fitted 
up,  ancT  it  is  now  as  complete  as  the  other, 
and  holds  as  many  people. 

If  the  pensioners  diet  not  some  of  them  re- 
ceive money  instead  of  provisions,  must  they 
not  return  to  that  custom  of  dining,  either  in 
the  open  air,  or  of  coming  and  dinmg  at  the 
tables  where  those  other  people  had  dined  ? — 
Undoubtedly,  because  there  are  only  1,900 
out  of  2,100  that  can  be  accommodated.   . 

Acquaint  the  Committee  if  you  know  what 
the  different  funds  are.  firom  whence  the  cha- 
rity stock  arises?— Tne  profits  arising  from 
the  sale  of  those  provisions. 

I  want  to  know  what  you  mean  by  the  sale 
'of  provisions,  is  that  the  money  list,  or  is  any 
other  list  included?— It  means  the  buUer's- 
list  and  chalk-off  Ust;  I  apprehend  it  b  con- 
fined to  those  two ;  the  money  list,  I  appre- 
hend, as  near  as  I  can  calculate  it ;  they  iuive 
the  fi^ll  value  of  the  provisions,  consequently 
there  is  no  saving  to  the  Hospital,  but  that  is 
a  veiy  small  part ;  the  butler's  Ust  is  the  prin- 
cipal thingi  every  man  who  chooses  it  goes  to 


the  buUer,  and  may  take  money  in  lieu  of  pro- 
visions. 

We  have  had  that  explained;  I  desire  to 
know,  when  you  say  the  first  article,  finom 
whence  the  charity  stock  arises,  is  the  provf- 
sions  boueht,  what  are  the  articles  you  in- 
clude in  that,  do  you  mean  the  butlerfs  list 
and  cl^k-off  list,  or  only  one  of  them  ?-^Both 
of  them. 

Do  ^ou  know  the  proportions  that  those 
two  articles  produce  ?— I  ao  not. 

Do  you  know  the  sum  total  that  both  pro- 
duce?— In  this  paper,  which  is  of  what  it 
produced  in  1778,  it  is  1,65?/.  14s.  another 
mnd  is  the.monev  collected  for  shewing  Uie 
Painted  Hall,  ana  the  chapel;  when  there 
was  a  chapel,  that  produced  clear  to  the  cha- 
rity, (for  the  porter^  has  a  fourth  part  of  it) 
the  otner  three-fourths,  in  the  year  1778,'pn>- 
duced  753/.  Bf.  4id.  then  there  is  8,000/;  in 
Old  and  New  South  Sea  annuities,  which 
bears  an  interest  of  three  per  cent  and  8,5001. 
South  Sea  stock. 

How  did  that  stock  arise  ? — From  savings ; 
the  fimds  for  the  boys  were  more  than  suffi- 
cient for  their  maintenance,  and  the  surplus 
has  been  invested,  firom  time  to  time,  in  Uie 
fimds,  on  their  account 

Then  I  understand  from  you  that  there  are 
several  sums  of  money  in  the  stocks,  amouQt- 
ing  to  about  14,000/.  ?— Sixteen  thousand  five 
hundred  pounds. 

Which  are  savings  th^t  have  been  made  out 
of  the  fimds  which  were  applicable  to  that 
charity  for  the  maintenance  of  the  boys,  ig 
that  so  ? — ^Yes,  it  is. 

How  is  the  interest  of  that  applied  again  ? 
---To  the  maintenance  of  the  chanty  boys  ;  it 
forms  a  part  of  their  fund. 

Do  you  not  look  upon  that  stock  to  belons 
to  Greenwich  Hospital  ?— It  is  a  separate  finna 
that  is  kept  for  the  boys. 

Don't  you  imacine  that  the  general  court 
might  apply  that  fund  for  any  other  purpose 
of  the  charity,  if  they  thought  proper  ? — Un- 
doubtedly. 

Then  what  other  funds  are  there  that  pro- 
duce the  revenues  of  this  charity  ? — Another 
fiind,  which,  in  the  vear  1778,  produced 
168/.  Sf.  4|</.  was,  the  absences,  cheques,  and 
mulcts. 

What  did  those  cheques  and  mulcts  arise 
firom  ? — When  a  pensioner  is  absent  without 
leave,  he  is  chequed  of  his  provisions,  and  I 
apprehend  that  he  is  charged  to  the  Hospital 
as  victualled,  but  that  the  amount  of  his  pro- 
visions goes  to  the  charity  stock. 

What  are  the  mulcts? — Mulcts  are  put 
upon  the  men  for  various  misdemeanors, 
small  mulcts.     -. 

Are  there  any  other  articles  ? — Here  is  in 
this  accoimt,  the  produce  of  some  old  shoes 
which  were  sold,  which  applied  to  that  stock, 
that  amounted  to  10/.  Inere  is  money  be- 
loxmng  to  a  deceased  pensioner,  put  into  the 
stock  by  order  of  the  council ;  it  is  a  rule,  if 
a  pensioner  dies  without  a  will,  and  there  L» 


17^        ttipeMng  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greeniaich.         A.  D.  177B. 


[lYS 


DobodjiodEim-what  he  has  left,  it-is  put  into 

the  stewud's  hands  to  be  apptied  to  the  cha- 
nts stock,  Subject  to  be  restoied^  io  case 
tbore  ife  ti^  dainant. 

b  there  any  more  P— -No. 

Nmr,  with  r^ard  to  the  application  of  this 
money,  how  much  was  the  total  produce  of 
the  revenues  of  the  charity  stock  for  that  year  ? 
—Two  thousand  five  hundred  and  thirty-four 
pounds^  if  I  have  cast  it  right. 

How  was  tiiat  applied,  in  Che  course  of  that 
5W?— Here  are  the  particulars  of  the  applica^ 
tioBofit. 

Is  that  account  lona?--Yes. 

Is  there  any  of  that  fund  applied  to  any 
other  purpose  than  the  muntenance  of  the 
bojrs?— There  are  some  of  the  officers  of  the 

nital,  myself  among  the  rest,  that  have 
additiuns  to  their  salaries  out  of  that 
fimd,  m  omsideiution  of  the  extraordinary 
Mobie  that  we  have  on  account  of  that  busi- 
ness ;  the  steward  has  %0i,  for  his  trouble ; 
he  has  a  great  deal  of  business. 

Be  so  good  as  read  the  list  of  those  officers, 
asdtbesalariea  that  they  have  out  of  it?— 
The  persons  that  are  employed  about  the  cha^ 
litj  boys  and  have  their  salaries,  or  additions 
t»  other  salaries,  paid  out,  are,  the  schoolmas- 
ter has  too/,  a  year,  the  surgeon  an  allowance 
of  so/,  a  year,  the  clerk  of  me  cheque  has  10 
guineas  a  year,  the  clerk  of  Waterman  Vhall 
10  euineas  a  year ;  the  clerk  of  Waterman's- 
haliiised  to  'be  employed  upon  the  business  I 
am  ftoing  to  state  to  your  lordships ;  there  is 
noUier  person  now  employed,  a  person  living 
ia  LiMxlon,  in  order  to  go  on  board  ships,  to 
see  whether  the  boys  tlmt  are  bound  out  are 
really  belonging  to  those  ships,  and  to  keep  up 
atorrespon&Dce  with  the  clerk  of  the  cheque, 
relative  to  that  business.  The  dispenser  nas 
10/.  his  joumeyman  has  10/^,  the  steward's 
int  clerk  10/.,  tiie  clerk  of  the  cheque's  first 
derk  has  10/.,  the  guardian's  salary  lo/.,  and 
three  assistants  5/.  each,  five  nurses  15/. 
each,  two  helpers  6/.  each,  a  person  for  teach- 
vg  vsahnody  to  the  boys  5/.,  that  particular 
<Wwymeat  is  now  abolished;  the  chapel 
derk  U^  and  the  sexton  S/.  Since  this  esta- 
bhshment,  the  steward  has  had  20/.,  myself 
^i  I  think  the  two  chaplains  have  had 
their  salaries  increased  30/.  each,  which  is 
fiid  out  of  that  stock,  and  that  is  the  ^hole 
that  I  recollect.  ' 

Whether  these  addhtional  salaries,  that  you 
have  mentwned,  are  to  be  paid  out  of  the 
charit;^  stock  at  all  events,  or  only  in  case 
*tte  tsasurphis? — ^Upon  my  word  I  don't 
know  how  they  would  be  paid,  if  there  v«ras 
not  a  surplus. 

There  18  nothing  of  thaif  sort  in  the  warrant 
^directions? — It  Is  ordered  to  be  paid  out  of 
^  charity  ntodk-^  I  should  hope  and  ima|^e 
they  would  think '  it  veiy  reasonable  to  p^  it 
m  of  some  mher  iiind,  if  there  ia  not  suifi- 
aentia'that* 

Who  are  the  Tteitods  that  h^tcl  1»ie  diulbts 
^9tm  themcn^^he.<^M9BBil  in  Moeral. 

VOL  XXL 


And  how  many  of  these  gentlemen  have 
seats  M  the  council  ?— I  believe  only  four, 
that  have  any  allowance  out  of  the  charity 
stock ;  the  two  chaplains,  the  steward,  and 
myself. 

Have  there  been  any  savings  of  this  charity 
stock  lately,  that  have  been  vested  in  the 
stocks  to  increase  that  fund  f — ^Not  very  lately, 
on  account  of  Mr.  Ellis's  deiiciencv ;  it  is  aa 
muth  as  the^  haVe  been  able  to  cio  to  keep 
above  water,  if  I  may  so  say ;  his  deficiency 
was  near  a  thousand  pounds  upon  this  stocky 
and  they  have  built  a  school-house  since  that, 
which  might  cost  5  or  600/.  or  more,  so  that 
has  taken  away  a  good  part  of  what  would 
otherwise  have  been  a  saving,  and  woidd 
otherwise  have  been  invested  in  the  funds. 

What  is  the  particular  use  these  eentle;nieA 
are  to  the  boys,  who  you  mentioned,  I  think, 
had  some  extraordinary  trouble }  Is  that  ex« 
traordinary  trouble  greater  than  before  the  al- 
lowance was  made  f — I  don't  know  Uiat  it  is 
greater. 

What  is-  the  extraordinary  trouble  that  the 
chaplains  are  at,  more  than  they  used  to  be  f 
—I  cannot  speak  to  that. 

Does  the  chaplain  catechise  the  boys?«- 
Yes,  he  does. 

How  often  ?— I  don't  know  how  often,  by 
their  instrue^ons,  they  are  to  do  it. 

I  doh't  ask  what  he  is  bound  to  do,  but  what 
you  know  he  does? — ^I  don't  know  that  he 
does  it. 

Captain  Bailiie  again. 

I  would  ask  you  relative  to  the  charity 
stock ;  do  you  know  what  funds  it  arises  from  ? 
— From  the  ftmds  Mr.  Ibbetson  has  describ- 
ed, but  in  some  points  I  think  rather  a  little 
different;  it  arises  from  the  butler's  list,  the 
chalk-oflTlist,  and  the  mulcts  and  the  cheques 
of  pensioners;  not  only  from  the  pensioners 
that  are  absent  without  leave,  the  pensioners 
never  have  any  leave  of  absence  without  being 
chequed,  unless  it  is  for  one  single  day ;  if  a 
pefisionergoea  down  to  Chatham,  to  receive 
tTie  remains  of  anv  little  pension  that  may  be 
due  to  him  fit>m  the  chest  of  Chatham,  if  it 
is  only  for  four  days,  though  he  is  obliged  to 
borrow  the  money  perhaps  to  carry  him  down 
to  Chatham,  in  the  mpn  time  he  is  chequed 
for  the  benefit  of  the  charity  stock ;  it  appears 
to  me,  on  that  account,  to  be  very  hostile  to 
the  pensioners. 

what  are  these  charity  boys ?  Are  they  tHe 
children  of  disabled  seamen,  or  the  children 
of  seamen  maimed,  drowned^  or  killed  in  the 
service? — I  believe  they  don't  in  any  way 
confine  it  to  that ;  for  I  have  known  a  clerk 
of  a  yacht  have  four  children  in  Greenwich 
Hospital;  it  is  not  confined  to  the  sons  of 
seamen  kiHed^  drowned,  disabled,  or  dead  in 
the*  service.     - 

Who  appomt  these  boys  ?•— The  directors. 

^        Mr.  Soawrd  called  iflu 

Are  you  the  butler  ?-**Ye9» 

.  N 


179] 


IB  GEORGE  III.         The  Case  of  Captain  Thmoi  BaiOie^         X'SO 


'  Give  an  account  of  the  produce  of  the  but- 
.ler's  list  ?-^Thc  produce  of  the  butler's  list, 
together  with  the  chalk-off  list,  aBiounts  to 
.about  120/.  a  month. 

I  bee  to  have  them  separated  f — The 
chalk-off  list  amounts  to  about  350/.  or  370/. 
•a  year. 

What  does  the  butler's  list  produce  per 
annum  ? — About  800/. 

So  that  the  whole  produces  about  1,900/,  a 
year  ^-r-Better  than  that,  because  there  is 
^dieese ;  the  men  are  paid  for  cheese^  as  well 
as  their  meat,  every  seven  da^s.     . 

What  does  the  money  list  produce?— I 
cannot  say^  that  is  not  in  my  department. 

You  said  something  about  tne  cheese  ? — 
They  are  paid,  every  seven  ^days,  money  in 
lieu, of  their  cheese ;  there  are  about  1,S00 
men  victualled  at  the  tables ;  800  have  meat, 
and  400  have  money  alternately,  and  are  paid 
every  seven  days  for  their  cheese. 
.  Does  the  butler's  list  include  every  article  ? 
— ^Itdoes,  except  beer;  the  chalk-on  is  about 
570,  the  cheese,  about  500,  tifid  the  butler's 
list  perhaps  may  be  about  600. 

Is  the  cheese  thai  part  of  the  chalk-off 
list? — Yes;  the  people  who  have  money  in 
lieu  of  provisions,  are  not  coippelled  16  take 
flaoney  m  lieu  of  their  provisions ;  I  spoke  to 
them  to-day  upon  that  account,  in  case  they 
^ould  have  any  thing  to  say. 

Do  I  understand  you  right,  that  the  cheese 
alone,  without  the  mea^  produce  500/.  a 
year  ? — ^I  believe  it  does. 

And  the  meat  d60/.?~Ves,  it  is  in  the 
whole  about'  1 ,600/.  I  only  mention  this  iirom 
remembrance;  I  have  not  the  list. 
.  Did  not  you  say  you  told  them  to-day  about 
this? — ^U^hen  I  paid  them  their  money  for 
their  meat,  I  asked  them  whether  they  chose 
to  have  their  meat  or  their  money,  because  I 
told  them  I  believed  I  shoidd  be  called  before 
this  honourable  House  to-day,  to  give  an  ao- 
count  of  their  chalk-off,  and  I  wished  to  know 
whether  they  chose  to  have  their  meat  or 
their  money;  the^  begged  of  me  that  I  would 
present  it,  at  their  request,  that  they  migjht 
have  meat  two  days,  and  be  paid  ior  it  uie 
third. 

Did  it  stand  otherways  before  than  only  by 
choice  ? — No,  always  by  choice. 

[Mr.  Saward  withdrew.] 

'Captain  Baillie  called  in  again. 

What  do  you  know  of  any  additional  salaty 
being  ^ven  to  an  <H^uust? — ^I  only  knoiw 
that  the  organist  has  had  an  additional  ap- 
pointment within  this  short  time. 

Is  it  a  new  office  ? — Entirely  a  new  office. 

What  does  he  do  for  it? — Be  ^teaches  the 
pharity  boys  to  sing  hymns  by  note. 

Does  tluit  office  seem  to  he  nepessary  ? — ^J 
thjnk  it  quite  foreign  from  tbfi  ediicat^on  of  a 
boy  intended  for  fie  sea  service ;  the  elder 
pensioners  axle  many  of  them  ftmd  of  singing 
psalms;  by  this  pewxegulatiqfiy  Iho  meo  are 


deprived  of  that  part  of  their  devotbns  in  a 
great  measure. 

Do  you  know  what  salary  this  ox»nist  has  f 
— I  believe  SO/,  a  year,  over  and  wove  what 
he  had  before. 

What  had  he  befoire  ? — ^I  believe  40L  as 
omnist 

Did  he  attend  before,  and  play  the  oigan  ? 
— ^Yes. 

And  he  has  20/.  additional  salaiy  forteach- 
ingthe  boys  ?•— Yes. 

They  are  not  taught  the  usual  way  of  sing^ 
ing  the  old  psalm^y  ?— They  sing  by  oote^ 
not  the  psalms,  but  hymns. 

Where  does  the  organbt  reside? — ^In  the 
town  of  Greenwich;  he  is  not  lodged  in  the 
Hospital. 

You  mention  this  ta  a  new  institution ;  ho# 
long  is  it  since  the  oifpanist  has  been  appoint- 
ed ? — ^I  mean  the  instituti^  of  a  new  organist 
to  teach  the  boys;  thatwaswhatlalludedto. 

You  did  not  mean  then  that  the  organist  is 
a  new  institution  ? — ^No,  I  did  not. 

Give  an  account  to  the  Committee  of  what 
abuses  you  know  of  h&ving  existed  relative  to 
clothing,  such  as  sho^  stockings,  linen,  beds  , 
and  washihg? — The  washing,  for  a  great 
many  years  last  past,  I  don't  say  within  this 
vear  or  two  particularly,  but  for  seteral  yean^ 
nas  be^n  notoriously  bad;  insomuch,  that 
one  never  sees  a  pensioner  with  a  dean  shirt 
on. 

But  what , complaints  have  you  had? — I 
have  had  a  great  many  complaints  of  it ;  I 
beg  leave  to  refer  to  the  minutes  of  the 
coimcil. 

Mr.  Ball  reads  the  Minutes. 

**  At  a  pouncil  held  in  the  Royal  Hospital  for 
seamen  at  Greenwich,  January  16, 1778. 

''The  nurses,  Bolton,  Hendy,  and  Roeey 
having  compluned  to  tiie  council,  that  the 
linen  oelonsing  to  the  men  under  their  car^ 
was  very  baaly  washed^  and  not  fit  to  be  deli- 
vered to  the  pensioners;  and  the  fbilowinc 
pensioners,  viz.  William  Sedden,  John  Foi«^ 
Aaron  Johnson,  Andrew  Wilson,  Thomas 
Rapely,  Dennis  Donovan,  Christopher  Cle- 
ments, Allen  M'Donald,  and  several  others^ 
declared,  the^  were  obli^  to  wash  their  ow& 
linen  afler  it  came  from  the  laundry;  and 
having  produced  th^r  shirts,  stocks,  towel% 
&c.  and  the  same  having  been  inspected  bj 
the  council,  anpeatedbad^  washed,  dkty  and 
of  a  disafireeabie  smell ;  sind  the  nurses  being 
examined  to  know  whether  they  had  cook 
plained  to  the  matron,  answered,  they  bad» 
out  that  the  linen  was  always  retumed  in  the 
same  manner;  and  they  had  likewiae  oon^ 
plained  to  the  contractor,  threatening  te  ap« 
peal  to  the  officers  and  oouhcil  of  the  Houai^ 
and  that  he  replied,  that  the  council  luii 
nothing  to  do  with  it^  and  that  il  was  on^ 
the  matron'*  business  to  kmeot  into  it ;  and 
it  appearing  to  the  council  that  the  compiaint 
ia  jiffit  and  welMountMb  Mid  the  waahinig  the 
pensignen' Jioen  equiOy  bid  throughout  the 


J817      ntpfcAig  the  Rojfol  HoBpUal  at  Greemokh.        A.  D.'  1778. 


[182 


Eospitily  the  matrons  are  therefore  hereby  I 
dnteiei  not  to  give  cert^cates  for  any  linen 
tbit  is  not  really  ckan  and  well  washed. — Bf 
Older  of  the  council,  Daniel  Ball." 

Captain  But/Zte  again. 

Was  any  thing  of  tins  represented  to  the 
fioard  of  mreciors  ? — I  don*t  know  that  that 
minute  wzs;  I  have  been  quite  tired  out  in 
lepresentiiig  matters  which  nave  not  been  re- 
dressed; it  has  been  a  general  received  opi- 
moD  in  the  Hospital^  it  has  been  inculcated 
into  almost  every  officer  of  the  house,  that 
the  council  of  the  house  for  naval  officers  had 
nothii^  to  do  but  to  discipline  the  pensioners, 
to  pumsh  them  when  they  are  refiactory,  but 
not  to  be  their  guardians  or  protectors  in  any 
other  way;  that  respecting  their  provisionS| 
washing,  and  bedding,  it  is  the  deoartment 
of  the  steward  and  the  clerk  of  the  cheque. 

Have  you  othei"  instances  to  produce  of 
complaints  having  been  made  of  tne  badness 
of  the  washing? — There  is  scarce  a  pensioner 
cf  Greenwich  Hospital  but  can  speak  to  that 
•tfclcj  I  will  refer  to  one  Jolm  Glass,  if  your 
Mships  please  to  call  him  in  ;  he  hsis  rnade 
many  complaints;  it  was  the  same  in  my 
predecessors  time ;  complaints  were  made  to 
the  council  then,  but  I  believe  it  was  not  en- 
tocd  upon  their  books ;  'it  was  ssdd  the  coun- 
cil had  nothine  to  do  with  ^ese  matters^ 
captain  Allwright  can  tell  your  lordships  about 
the  linen,  if  you  please. 

You  may  jgo  through  any  other  article. — To 
my  certain  laiowledge.  the  men's  shoes  and 
^kings  don't  last  them  half  the  time ;  I 
have  had  many  hundred  complaints  concern- 
ing the  shoes  and  stockings  from  different 
prasioncrs. 

Have  you  made  complaints  of  that  to  the 
««ctors?-.No;  I  thmk  it  is  the  duty  of  the 
officers  to  apply  to  the  Admiralty ;  the  coun- 
cil and  board  of  directors  are  to  be  a  check 
'Jpon  jBach  other,  as  I  humblv  conceive. 

Have  you  complained  to  the  Admiral^  ? — ^I 
c«nnot  sav  I  have  in  my  own  person  particu- 
^rly.  I  nave  mentioned  it  at  the  council, 
hot  they  have  had  a  majority  there  not  to  lay 
11  hefiwe  the  Admiralty. 
,  Is  there  any  minute  of  the  council  respect- 
ing the  shoes  and  stockings? — ^I  believe  we 
can  refer  to  the  minutes  of  the  council  re- 
^^cctmg  that  matter;  as  to  the  shoes  served 
to^  pensioners,  it  cannot  be  expected  that 
^qr  should  last  the  time;  they  have  only 
^^  pair  allowed  for  two  years ;  and  whilst 
w  pnce  of  leather  has  been  increasing,  the 
wntract  price  of  shoes  has  been  reducecT  In 
«c  hst  contract  before  this,  I  believe  they 
J^  only  three  shillings  and  seven-pence 
^^penny  a  pair ;  and  to  my  certain  know- 
jjd^  at  the  work-house  in  the  town  of 
Greenwich,  they  allow  four  shillings  and  six- 
Mr.  Bail  reads  aMinuie  of  the  Council  of  the 
16tb  of  July,  1777. 
"  fntegx,  lieiitBMBt^ovcnM>r  BaiUiey^- cap- 


tain Allwright,  captain  Chads,  lieutenant 
Answell,  captain  Lynn,  lieutenant  Moyle. 
Thomas  Frencham  having  complained  to  the 
council  of  his  stockings,  that  one  pair  of  the 
two  served  him  at  the  last  serving,  that  is  in 
Mav  last,  were  worn  out  in  a  fortnight,  which 
ouglit  to  have  lasted  eight  months,  and  that 
the  other  pair  were  much  womi  in  the  samtf 
time,  which  he  produced  before  the  council ; 
and  John  Robinson,  and  several  others,  hav- 
ing also  complained  that  their  stockings  which 
they  now  have,  are  much  inferior  to  what  thev 
uaed  to  have ;  and  it  appearing  to  the  council, 
that  these  complaints  are  justly  founded,  or- 
dered, that  a  co^jr  of  this  minute  be  sent  to 
the  steward, 'desirinv  he  would  lay  the  same 
before  the  board  ofdirectors  for  their  infor- 
fliation,  that  the  necessary  measures  may  be 
taken  for  redressing  the  men.  By  order  bf 
the  council,  Daki£l  Ball.'' 

Mr.  Gadlnfy  (the  Steward)  sworn. 

Did  you  recfttve  a  copy  of  the  minutes  of 
the  council  the  18th  of  July,  1777,  to  lay  be- 
fore the  eouH  of  directors? — ^I  did. 

Did  you  lay  them  before  the  board  of  direc- 
tors } — ^I  did  not 

What  was  the  reason  ?— Upon  my  clerk's 
informing  ihe  that  there  was  an  order  of 
council  for  me  to  do  that,  I  told  him  I  had  done 
it  already,  and  that  Mr.  Baillie,  who  was  at 
the  head  of  the  counci),  was  at  the  board 
when  I  reoresented  the  matter  of  the  subject 
of  the  stocxings  to  the  board. 

Do  you  imagine  that  a  representation  from 

you,  as  an  individual,  would  have  the  same 

weight  with  the  board  as  the  unanimous  re- 

^  presentation  of  the  coundl  ? — ^I  think  it  oug;bt 

'  to  have  more  weight,  as  it  was  my  particular 

du^  to  attend  to  it. 

Do  you  think  yourself  authorized,  when  you 
receive  directions  from  the  council  to  lay  their 
complaint  before  the  board  of  directors,  to 
refuse  to  do  it? — ^As  the  matter  had  been  al- 
ready represented  and  remedied  as  much  as 
the  boara  could  possibly  do  at  that  time. 

Had  you  ever  laid  those  very  complaints 
that  are  represented  in  that  order  of  council, 
before  the  Doard  ?-— That  very  cdmplaint,  the 
complaint  of  the  same  stockings  delivered 
some  time  in  the  latter  end  of  May,  there 
were  about  500  pair  of  stocking  delivered  in 
for  the  use  of  the  pensioners ;  it  being  a  large 
quantity,  I  had  no  place  in  my  store-rooms  to 
lodee  them,  they  were  lodeed  in  the  Painted- 
hall,  all  the  day  before  they  were  delivered 
out  to  the  pensioners ;  when  the  officer  cwne 
down  to  assist  in  delivering  out  these  stbck^ 
ings,  I  attended  in  person  to  examine  thes<& 
stocidngs;  upon  looking  over  some  in  the 
iront  they  appeared  tolerably  good  and  near 
the  pattern,  and  I  began  to  serve  them:  the 
derk  of  the  cheque  and  his  clerk,  or  both^ 
were  with  me;  after  about  900  pair^were 
served  out,  I  discovered  that  they  were  not 
equsd  to  the  pattern.  I  got  upon  the  bench^ 
and  took  smae  down ;  I  examined  them  iby« 


ISS] 


IS  GSORGE  m.  The  Case  tfCt^Uun  Thmoi  BmUie,        (Wk 


fielL  and  immediately  ordered  the  Hall  doors 
to  De  shut,  ^  and  stopped  some  ^t  had  got 
stockingSj  and  in  that  very  dav  it  was  cried, 
for  the  men  to  return  the  stockings  that  had 
got  them  ;  a  few  days  ader  there  was  a  board 
of  directors;  I  represented  the  matter  to 
them^  and  receivea  theiir  orders  how  to 
proceed. 

What  were  these  orders  ?  What  was  done 
in  pursuance  of  tliis  P — I  believe  the  minutes 
of  board  will  shew  that. 

Mf.  Ibbetson  reads. 

<<  On  the  2l8t  of  Ma^,  1777,  the  steward 
having  represented  by  his  letter  of  this  date, 
that  ihe  contractor  for  hose  lately  deUvered  500 
dozen,  great  part  of  which  appeared  much 
coarser  than  the  pattern,  haa  saved  some 
which  were  produced,  &c. 

■  '<  The  contractor  was  called  in  and  ques- 
tioned, how  he  came  to  serve  them ;  he  said 
the  stockings  were  much  thicker,  stronger, 
-and  of  more  value  than  the  pattern,  though 
not  so  fine.- 

^*  Ordered,  That  the  steward  cause  as  many 
to  be  selected  of  the  best,  as  there  were  some 
good,  as  will  be  sufficient  to  supply  the  men 
with  two  pitir  each ;  the  rest  lo  be  returned  to 
the  contractor." 

Q.  to  Captain  Baillie,  You  have  heard  what 
Mr.  Godby  has  said  about  thi^,  that  the  same 
complaint  you  made,  and  which  was  stated  in 
that  order  of  the  council,  had  been  made  by 
him,  to  that  board  of  directors,  when  you  were 
present,  and  that  he  told  you  ^t  was  the 
Teason  he  would  not  prefer  the  complaint 
again? — A.  That  was  in  May,  the  other  was 
on  the  18th  of  July  1777 ;  the  pensioners, 
iirst,  I  understand,  would  not  receive  them  in 
tlie  Painted-hall. 

Were  they  the  same  stockings  that  were  de- 
livered in  May  ?— These  are  the  stockings  that 
the  men  complained  of  that  were  delivered  in 
May. 

il.  to  Mr.  IbbetsoiK.  The  complaint  it  ap- 
pears^ by  that  minute,  is  the  Slst  of  Mav; 
does  It  not  appear  by  the  minutes,  that  the 
stockings  which  were  found  to, be  not  equal 
to  the  pattern,  were  notwithstanding  that  de- 
liver^, that  there  was  such  a  direction  given, 
that  such  as  were  good  and  sufficient  should 
be  ddivexed. — **  Oraered,  That  the  steward  do 
cause  as  many  of  the  best  of  them  to  be  se- 
lected as  will  be  sufficient  to  provide  each 
/Dian  with  two  pair,  the  rest  tp  be  returned  to 
the  contractor.'' 

Then,  do  you  imagine  that,  according  to 
that  order,  ,tluit  any  thing  but  the  best,  and 
such  as  were  sufficient  and  good  for  the  men, 
ought  to  be  delivered  ? — Undoubtedly  not. 

Now  will  Mr.  Godby  be  so  good  as  read 
that  part  of  the  complamt  made  afierwaids  in 
Juhr? 

ISr.  IbhetioH.    I  beg  to  be  ^mderstood  in 
tibat  last  part  of  it ;  the  order  directs,  tbfA  the 
|>est  of  them  that  could  be  selected. 
.  X)o  jou  understand  that  the  t>^t  of  them 


were  to  be  delivered  wbefter  good  or  bad? — ^I 
do  certainly  understaad  t^s  minute,  that  the 
best  that  could  be  selected,  to  the  amount  of 
two  pair  to  each  man. 

^  Do  you  imagine  that  the  court  of  directora, 
in  givmg  that  order,  meant  that  any  thing 
should  be  given  that  were  not  serviceable  for 
the  men  ?  Read  the  order  and  see  who  were 
present?— Sir  Charles  Hardy,  captam  Baillie, 
captain  Hood,  Mr.  Stuart,  sir  tercy  Brett^ 

Mr. ,  sir  Peter  Dennys,  Mr.  Hicks^ 

and  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke.    [Reads  the  Order.! 

Then  I  ask  you,  should  you  have  thought 
yourself  warranted  under  tliat  order,  in  which 
order  is  stated,  that  those  which  w«re  different 
from  the  pattern  were  stronger  and  bettej,  fo 
have  delivered  any  to  the  men  that  were  not 
fit  for  their  use  ? — I  should  have  looked  upoa 
myself  as  authorised  by  that  order  to  bave 
selected  the  best  of  them,  let  their  qualily 
have  been  what  it  would,  and  to  have  issued 
of  those  best,  two  pair  a  man. 

And  should  you  have  thought  yourself  au^- 
thorised  so  to  luive  done,  without  representing 
to  the  directprs  that  they  were  bad?--rlf  Ihaa 
found  any  extremely  bad,  I  certainly  should 
have  represented  that  to  the  board  of  directors. 

Q.  to  Captain  BailUe,  I  wanted  to  know 
whether  you  objected  to  the  order  of  the 
board  respecting  the  selecting  two  pair  per 
man  out  of  that  bad  quantity.— il.  I  did ;  I 
said  that  the  people  could  not  be  so  much 
distressed  for  stockings,  because  they  had  not 
returned  their  old  stockings.  I  made  use  of 
this  particulau*  argument  I  am  going  to  use 
now;  I  said,  that  the  men  could  not  be  dis- 
tressed for  a  week  or  a  fortnight,  because 
they  had  their  old  stockings,  which  were 
made  of  double  yam,  and  were  stronger  than 
the  new. 

Q.  to  Mr.  Ball.  Read  the  order  of  council, 
the  18th  of  July,  1777.— Mr.  Ball  reads  the 
order.  ^ ' 

Q.  to  Mr.  Godby,  Do  you  imderstand  that 
your  having  complained  to  the  board  of  di- 
rectors, that  the  stockings  were  originally 
bad,  and  they,  had  in  conseauence  oF  that, 
upon  an  enquiry,  been  told,  that  they  were, 
though  a  dinerent  quahty,  stronger,  and  in 
many  respects  better  than  the  pattern ;  they 
having  directed  you  to  deliver  out  two  pair  of 
the  best,  do  you  think  that  a  complaint, 
stating,  that  these  stockings,  which  hao  been 
delivered  in  May.  were  excessive  bad,  and«. 
that  they  had  not  lasted  a  fortnight,  do  you 
think  that  was  the  same  sort  of  complaint 
you  had  made  in  May.? — A,    I  do. 

Why  so? — ^When  I  represented  this  matter 
to  the  board,  the  hosier  was  called  in ;  he 
mi^t  represent  that  there  were  some  of  them 
equal  to  the  pattern,  but  I  never  conceived 
any  of  them  were  equal  to  the  pattern.  I 
tfamk,  to  the  best  of  my  knowledge,  the  board 
gave  him  four  months  to  provide  others ;  he 
required  that  time  or  nearitto  provide  others; 
it  was  impossible  therefore  to  remedy  it  be- 
fore that  time,  aid  we  .weiei>hliged  ta  take 


R3]        fHftcAtg  Hke  Roj^  Hoipiial  ui  Oreetmclu        A.  D.  1?79« 


[1S6 


ihem  as  we  could,  deductfog  a  filing  a 
doKO  for  those  we  received ;  I  received  an 
opkr  of  the  board  to  receive  that,  which 
UDOunted  to  10/. 

But  did  you  not  think  it  your  dutv  when  an 
application  was  made  to  you  from  tiie  council 
to  represent  a  partiicular  tact  to  the  board  of 
Sectors,  don't  you  think  it  was  your  duty  so 
10  have  done? — I  think  it  impossible  to  be 
icmedied;  I  represented  ^t  Mr.  BaiUie  was 
present;  Mr.  Baillie  being  present  at  the 
Mtfd  of  directors^  and  at  the  councij,  I 
^MHi^t,  upon  my  clerk's  informing  him  at  the 
council,  that  tha;t  was  sufficient;  Mr.  Baillie 
must  know  as  well  as  I  that  no  remedy  could 
be  applied. 

I  did  not  ask  you  what  you  thought  about 
Mr.  Bailhe  and  your  clerk,  but  whether  you 
think  it  is  your  duty,  if  you  receive  an  order 
horn  the  council  to  lay  a  complaint  before  the 
kard  of  directors,  to  lay  that  complaint  be- 
fore the  iKMird  or  not  ? — It  had  been  done'  in 
that  very  instance. 

Did  you  lay  a  copy  of  that  complaint  before 
the  board?— No. 

Do  you  apprehend  it  was  your  duty  to  have 
done  it? — ^I  apprehend  it  was  not  necessary. . 

I  ask  you  whether  it'  is  a  part  of  your  d^ty 
to  obey^  those  orders?*— I  understood  that  I 
Ind  done  my  duty  sufficiently  in  every  re- 
spect 

I  ask  you  a  seneral  question,  whether  it  is 
vour  duty  to  i%ey  the  positive  orders  of  the 
council  or  not  ? — Certamly,  and  I  thought  I 
bad  done  my  duty. 

The  council  directed  you  to  lay  a  copy  of 
their  minute  before  the  dhrectors,  and  you  did 
not  do  that.  Do  you  think  you  did  vour  duty 
in  that?— When  I  informed  them  that  I  had 
done  so  before. 

Did  you  inform  the  council  so  ?— The  clerk 
of  the  council  told  me  so,  and  I  gave  him 
that  answer,  liiat  it  was  already  done. 

I  wish  the  minute  of  the  council  to  be  read ; 
I  think  it  is  said  he  was  ordered  to  lav  this 
before  the  board  of  directors. — Mr.  BaM  reads 
it:  <*  Ordered,  that  a  copy  of  this  minute  be 
sent  to  the  steward,  desinnff  he  would  lay  the 
Mine  before  the  Iward  of  directors  for  their 
information,  that  the  necessary  measures  may 
be  taken  for  redressine  the  men.'' 

Lord  Chrnncelior  to  Mr.  Godby,  Does  the 
oonstituticm  of  the  house  make  you  the  ser- 
vant^n  any  respect,  and  what? — ^In  none ;  I 
te  one  of  the  council. 

Thto  this,  Uiat  they  are  calling  an  order, 
was  a  desire  of  your  brother  counsellors,  that 
you  would  txutke  that  representation  ? — Yes. 

Of  which  council  you  were  one  ?'r-Yes. 

Who  is  the  proper  person  to  lay  it  before 
the  board  of  dveciors  r — ^I  was,  certunly. 

Why  are  you  the  proper  person  to  lay  a 
eomplaint  of  this  kind  before  the  board  of  di- 
TectQis  ? — ^Because  I  received  these  stockings 
^y  pattern^  and  issued  them  with  the  assist^ 
Mce  of  my  clerk.  . 
.  Is  it  youri»usioeis  to  receive^  examine,  and 


issue  them  ^-'-^Yes,  vnth  the  assiatanoe  of  the> 
clerk  of  the  cheque. 

I  should  be  glad  to  know,  whether  the 
board  of  directors  (at  the  time  they  nuide  that 
order  to  deliver  two  pairs  to  the  several  pen^ 
sioners  of  the  best)  knew  at  that  time  that 
the  stockings  so  to  be  delivered  would  not 
last  above  a  fortnight? — You  understand,  my 
ford,  tfiat  I  had  laid  a  sample,  taken  promis- 
cuously out  of  the  whole,  for  their  inspection, 
sunposing  them  to  be  as  good  a  judge  as  my- 

I  I  ask,  whether  the  court  of  directors  could 
know  or  understand  that  the  stockings  so  to" 
be  delivered  would  not  last  above  a  fortnight  ? 
— It  was  impossible  for  them  or  m^  to  say 
how  long  they  would  hist;  they  were  not 
equal  to  the  pattern. 

If  upon  a  trial  they  wore  out  in  a  fortnight, 
and  a  new  comph^t  was  made,  was  not  Uuit 
complaint  fit  tn  be  carried  to  the  board  of  ^ 
rectors  ? — ^We  had  no  remedy. 

I  ask,  if  upon  the  trial  they  wore  out  in  a 
fortnight,  and  a  new  complaint  was  made, 
was  not  that  com^hiint  fit  to  be  carried  to  tiia 
board  of  directors  ? — I  had  received  my  orders, 
and  acted  under  those  orders. 

But  was  this  a  fact  fit  to  be  carried  to  them 
or  not? — If  the  council  had  thought  proper. 

They  did  think  proper,  and  desired  you  to 
do  it^ — ^I  represented  in  return,  that  I  had 
done  it;  I  received  no  farther  orders  from  the 
council. 

You  had  never  laid  before  the  board  of  di- 
rktors  that  the  stockings  upon  trial  had  not 
lasted  a  fortnight  ? — No,  I  had  not 

Why  did  vou  not  lay  that  complaint  beforo 
the  board  of  directors  ? — ^It  did  not  lie  with 
me  to  do  it. 

I  misunderstood  you  then ;  I  thought  you 
were  the  proper  person  to  carry  the  representa- 
tions of  the  council  to  the  board  ol* directors? 
— I  am ;   but  I  thought  I  had  done  sufficient. 

Do  you  think  that  a  representation  to  the 
board  di  directors,  at  that  time,  could  have 
answered  any  purpose? — I  don't. 

Do  you  think  it  is  fit  for  vou  to  have  made 
a  representation  which  coula  answer  no  pur- 
pose?— ^I  don't 

Whether  if  tliis  complaint  had  been  made 
to  the  board  "of  directors,  that  the  stockings 
were  so  bad  they  would  not  last  a  man  a  fort^ 
night,  whether  it  would  have  been  a  good' 
ground  for  them  to  have  turned  off  the  coA- 
tractor,  and  employed  somebody  else? — ^It 
ver)'  possibly  mieht,  but  I  don't  know  th^ 
wero  so  bad  as  that. 

Then  if  it  is  possible  they  might,  or  if  they 
had  done  it,  would  not  that  have  been  some^ 
thing  like  a  remedy  against  the  complaint?-— 
Not  an  inuiedtate  remedy ;  there  could  be  no 
immediate  romedy  according  to  the  represen- 
tation of  the  hosiers. 

Could  it  not  be  remedied  another  time  ? — It 
is  remedied  now ;  th^  have  now  a  new  con- 
tractor. 

Did  not  the  board  of  directors  know,  upon 


187J 


18  GBORGE  IIL 


The 


^xaminiitg  some  of  theae  stockings^  that 
many  of  them  were  much  worse  t&n  they 
ou^t  to  have  been  ? — ^Yes. 

Would  not  that  have  been  a  siifficient  ex- 
cuse for  torniag  o£f  a  contractor  ?-~€ertBinly* 

From  what  appeared  to  you  upon  inflect- 
ing these  stockmgs^  whether  they  looked  as 
if  wey  would  not  last  a  fortnight,  and  whether 
it  appeared  to  you  that  they  did  not  last  a 
fortni^t?*— It  never  appeared  so  to  me;  it 
willonen  happen  upon  a  contract  that  some 
will  be  bad. 

Was  it  a  general  complaint  in  the  Hospital, 
that  they  wcnild  i^  last  more  than  a  fort- 
night ;  or  was  it  only  a  few  people  that  made 
that  complaint  ?*^I  believe  it  was\  very  &r 
firom  a  general  complaint ;  I  believe  they  did 
not  last  the  time  they  should  do. 

Do  you  know  any  men  that  were  satisfied 
with  their  stockings?— I*  believe  some  were 
very  well  satisfied ;  and  whenever  they  came 
to  my  office,  I  changed  them  frequently  for 
what  thev  call  dead  men*s  stockings,  that  the 
men  might  not  suffer  so  much,  which  we  are 
authorised  to  <k)  from  our  instructions. 
.  I  think  you  stated,  that  it  would  be  impro- 
per in  you  to  make  a  complaint  to  the  direc- 
tors that  it  was  not  in  their  power  to  remedy } 
— ^I  may  have  said  to  that  purpose. 

Do  you  think  that  you  are  to  be  the  judge, 
or  they,  whether  it  is  possible  to  remedy  it  or 
not  ? — ^I  understand  that  I  had  made  the  com- 
plaint to  the  board  *  had  received  their  orders, 
and  I  U>oujght  that  sufficient ;  and  then  I  was 
justifiable  m  acting  under  those  orders. 

But  a  fresh  complaint  had  arisen? — ^I  did 
not seie. any  occasion  for  a  fresh  complaint; 
the  council  met,  and  therefore  it  was  their 
duty  to  see  to  it. 

I  ask  you,  whether  it  was  your  duty  to  lay 
that  complaint,  when  it  was  made  by  the 
oounciL  before  the  board  of  directors  ? — ^If  in 
DHy  judgment  I  had  seen  reason  for  a  fresh 
complaint 

I  ask  you,  whether  you  think  you  are  to  be 
the  judge,  whether  a  complaint 'made  by  the 
eouiKil  was  proper  to  be  laid  before  the  board 
of  directors  ? — I  had  nothios  to  do  with  it ;  I 
receive  the  orders  from  the  boaxd  of  directors 
io  act  in  my  department. 

But  did  you  not  receive  communication  of 
this  ?^I  did. 

Why  did  you  not  lay  that  complaint  before 
the  board  \ — For  the  reason  I  gave  before ;  I 
thought  the  answer  that  I  had  given  to  the 
couiicil  sufficient. 

Tlienyou  were  to  judje,  whether  that  com- 
plaint was  well  or  itt-munded,  and  not  the 
.toard  of  directors  ?— That  is  a  different  thing; 
I  do  not  say  that  I  do. 

At  tiie  time  when  you  did  not  lay  this  be- 
fore the  board,  were  not  you  satisfied,  that  if 
the  council  had  consisted  of  reasonable  peo- 
ple, that  it  was  a  suffifcient  ajiswer  to  say,  that 
that  complaint  already  the  directors  were  acs- 
quainted  with  ? — Yes. 

And  was  not  tbat  the  reason  for  not  doing 
it  ?— Yes  >  and  the  reason  I  gave. 


Case  of  Capain  Thomas  BaUli^ .        [180 

Had  you  befbie  acquainted  the  boara  of  di« 
rectors,  that  since  the  delivery  they  had  worn 
out  in  afortiiight? — I  had  compuuned  ibtiy 
were  bad,  and  not  equal  to  the  pattern. 
,  But  that  was  before  the  trial) — Yea. 

And  are  these  two  thinp  the  same  ? — -As 
the  stockings  were  bad,  iy  is  reasonable  to 
suppose  they  would  wear  out  before  the  time 
limited  for  them ;  I  don't  look  upon  it  \hat 
the  whole,  or  near  of  them,  would  wear  out 
in  that  time. 

I  ask  you,  if  it  were  but  for  one  that  was 
worn  out,  whether  that  is  the  same  complaint? 
No,  it  is  not.  '' 

You  say,  that  the  contractor  had  not  time 
to  find  the  quantity  of  stockings  necessary  for 
four  months,  I  think? — ^I  do. 

At  the  end  of  those  four  months,  did  he 
bring  stockings  equal  to  the  onginal  contract? 
— ^I  think  they  were  very  near. 

Aseood  as  you  could  expect? — ^Yes;  and 
much  better  than  the  former. 

And  his  reason  for  not  giving  them  good 
before^  was,  another  man  umiertaking  it,  aod 
he  was  forced  to  bring  goods  that  otherwise 
he  wouTd  not  have  done  ? — Yes,  that  was  the 
reason  he  gave. 

As  you  complained  in  the  first  instaiice  to 
the  council  that  they  were  bad,  why  did  not 
you  in  the  second  instance  make  the  com- 
plamt  ? — ^I  thought  that  complaint  had  beea 
made  to  the  board,  and  I  thought  that  would 
be  a  sufficient  answer  to  the  council. 

Though  «the  stockings  proved  bad  afteis 
wards  ? — Yes. 

I  think  you  just  now  said,  that  there  was 
no  remedy  at  that  time;  you  acknowledge  the 
stockings,  were  very  bad,  but  you  had  no  re- 
medy; now  I  think  it  appears  to  me  there 
was  a  remedy. — It  does  not  appear  to  me. 

You  gave  these  people  two  pairs  of  stockings 
each,  did  not  you  ? — Yes. 

Suppose,  when  you  had  found  them  so  very 
bad,  you  had  delivered  out  but  one  pair  to 
each  {  why  did  not  you  remedy  it  in  that 
manner  ? — I  did  not  think  two  pair  were  suf* 
ficient  to  deliver  them  out  for  a  change. 

But  they  had  stockings,  Mr.  Baillie  saya^ 
of  their  own  before ;  that  was  a  change.-— 
Thc^  had  old  stockings  certainly. 

Suppose,  if  a  pair  had  been  worn  out,  you 
might  have  got  another  pair  for  each  of  them 
in  a  fortnight?— The  contractor  demanded 
four  months. 

Could  you  not  have  got  others  in  a  forU 
night? — ^I  believe  not. 

You  say  you  could  not  have  got  these 
stockings  from  these  people  in  a  fortnight ;  X 
will  answer  for  it,  if  you  had  applied  to  the 
hosiers  at  Leicester,  you  would  have  got  them 
in  a  week. — ^I  don't  think  they  could  be  dyed 
in  the  time,  much  more  made. 

Do  you  think  the  contractor  could  not  have 
n>t  them  there  ? — ^I  don't  think  he  could  have 
Uiem  dyed  in  t^e  time ;  when  I  have  applied 
to  the  contractors  for  stockings,  tbey  nave 
made  vofA  answer,  that  they  were  dying,  and 
would  be  ready  m  a  week  or  a  montn,  or  so. 


789]        retptetiug  ike  Royal  HotfUal^tA  Greemdch.        A.  D.  1778. 


[190 


But  if  vfNi  had  appiwd  propcrlj  where  I 

teli  Tou,  <fo  jou  thiok  thev  coiud  nol  be  sup- 
plieaw^msiflkie&tnuinber  ina  tbrtni^? 
— Idon^know. 

Because  voa  aaid .  you  did  not  see  any  re- 
ndT.— I  did  not  see  any  remedy ;  nor  did 
the  board  at  that  time,  I  believe ;  I  dont 
tUnk  it  was  possible  to  be  served  in  tlie 
time. 

Lord  Chancellor.  Whether  you  look  upon 
yoorself  to  be  under  the  orders  of  the  council  ? 
-i.  No.  • 

And  whether  it  is  usual  for  vou  to  carrv  the 
minutes  of  the  council  to  the  board  of  mreo- 
tors?~-€ertainly  not. 

Did  you  deliver  the  two  pair  of  stockings, 
bj  the  order  of  the  directors? — I  did. 

W^s  the  same  contractor  continued  after  this 
abuse? — ^No,  we  have  a  new  contractor  now.  - 

But  who  was  the  contractor  thenP — The 
man  that  serves  us  now  followed  the  man 
that  served  in  these  bad  stockings ;  he  did 
not  supply  us  aflerwards ;  I  believe  he  did  not 
bid  for  the  contract  aflerwards,  I  am  not  cer- 
tain whether  he  did  or  not ;  but^  however, 
there  was  a  lower  bidder,  and  the  person  has 
it  now. 

You  did  not  exempt  him  from  the  contmct? 
-No, 

And  dkl  he  continue  contractor,  the  four 
months  between)  or  how  Icme  ^— He  continued 
for  the  serving  of  these  stockings  for  the  two 
years. 

Then  he  served  four  months  aflerwards?-^ 
Tes^  several  months  aflerwards. 

Without  applviog  to  any  body  but  the  con- 
tractor, after  tne  men  had  had  one  pair  of 
stockii^  which  they  mi^i  have  made  a 
shift  with  perhaps,  would  it  not  have  been 
better,  and  would  there  not  have  been  time 
enough  without  taking  two  pair,  to  have 
wait^  for  the  contractor's  providing? — I  don't 
think  theie  woukl. 

How  knag  were  these  stockings  to  last? — 
£ttht  monthe,  I  think. 

Then  how  long  time  would  yoti  give  him 
for  another  pair? — I  think  it  was  four  months 
the  cotttraetor  wished  to  have,  aad  aaid  he 
cMld  net  complete  the  oonlract  in  less  time. 

l)on't  you  know  three  pair  <^  stockings 
It  to  last  two  years? — Yes,  a  pair  lasts 
itaionlhs. 

ihen,  according  to  that,  might  they  not 
have  had  time  enough  to  have  vouled  for  Uie 
Kcond  peir  being  made  ?— I  don*t  think  there 
woukL 

Ooyouiflsainne  that  the  board  of  direotors 
thouffht  ^lat  the  ntockings,  that  were  deti-^ 
«aed  mthe  UMintb  of  M«^,  were  fit  .for  the 
nui  to  weaf,  and  fit  tO/last  eight montha  or 
jot?— That  they  were  not  is  certain;  if  (hey 
■u» there  waano  ocoation  forme  to  hatwt 
nadeaeampteaii.  r 

Thatldon^^OB;  for  you  rcpataentadjthat 
»«7  vera  noi.  ^qiial  to  the  patlterD^  and  the 
watncioifB^  mtfreseatatiaa  ^«as,'  tW  thty 
***  >tj:oo|sr  Iban  the  pattern;  ^  wiia^  was, 


done  in  consequence  of  this  ?  Were  any  more 
stockings  allowed  to  the  men,  in  .consequence 
of  those  having  been  delivered  which  were 
bad  ? — When  a  man  came  to  my  office  with  a 
complaint,  which  I  look  upon  the  proper 
place  to  come  to,  I  ordered  my  people  to 
change  any  of  those  that  were  iMidy  and  give 
them  some  old  ones  that  were  returned  iu 
from  dead  men;  we  have  an  order,  when  a 
man  dies,  his  clothes  are  letumed  into  my 
office,  and  they  are  mended  and  provided  for 
new  pensioners. 

And  that  was  the  case  with  all  that  com- 
plained ? — I  believe  most ;  when  I  thought  it 
a  just  complaint,  and  that  the  man  had  not 
wore  out  his  stockiitts  by  working  as  a  la- 
bourer, or  any  thine  or  that  kind. 

Was  it  done  in  tne  case  of  those  men  that 
complained  to  the  council? — ^I  don*'t  know 
who  those  men  were,  and  should  not  remem- 
ber if  I  saw  the  list  of  them. 

What  is  the  method  that  the  council  usually 
follow,  when  they  want  to  communicate  any 
thine  to  the  board  of  directors? — ^They  order 
the  clerk  of  the  council^  I  should  apprehend, 
to  jpresent  such  a  letter  to  the  board. 

Whether  you  have  ever  carried  any  thiiw 
before  the  board  of  directors  by  the  desiieM* 
the  council  ?— I  don't  recollect  that  I  ever 
have ;  I  may,  but  I  don't  recollect  that  I  ever 
did. 

I  think  you  said,  you  told  the  clerk  that  you 
had  already  made  the  complaint ;  where  did 
you  tell  him  that?— I  tola  my  clerk,  who 
told  me  the  message. 

Do  you  know  that  your  clerk  declared  that 
to  the  council  ? — I  don't  know  that  he  did,  but 
I  believe  he  did.    .      [Mr.  Godby  wiihdrew.] 

Mr.  Ibhetton  called  in  again. 

Do  you  look  upon  it  to  be  the  dutv  of  the 
steward  to  make  representation  by  thediree^ 
tion  of  tlie  council,  to  the  board  of  directors? 
—No,  I  don't. 

Then  you  don't  look  upon  Mr.  Oodbv  to  ba 
resfwnsible  in  not  makina  Uie  second  com- 
plamt  at  the  desire  of  uie  council^  to  the 
board  of  directors :  whose  business  is  it  to 
make  the  complaint  from  the  counciLto  the 
board  of  directors  ?  How  is  it  usually  done  ? 
*T~I  have  never  known  it  otl^rwise  since  I 
have  been  secretary  of  Greenwich  Hospital^ 
th^t  any  complaint  or  any  orders  of  the  ooubp 
cil  have  ever  come  to  me  in  anv  other  way 
than  under  a  cover  fioom  the  clerk  of  the 
council;  I  never  knew  an  instance  where  the- 
slieward  was  desired  to  convey  it,  and  I-  was. 
su^rprised  to  see  that  tacked  to  this  resolution  j 
I  never  knew  an  officer  a  beafer  of  those  mi'^ 
nulos^  er  desired  to  repieaent  them. 

[Mr.  Ibbecson  withdmwi] 

Captain  Baillie  called  in  again. 

■  •       '  ♦  ^ 

- .  Give  an  account  of  any  other  abuses  ?•— t« 
b^  to  say  a .  word  or  t«ro  upon  the  si4ti^t  of 
th^  9tocluag»«  In  the  first  plaoe^  we  wens 
very  well  served  1^  the  former  contractor  of 


191] 


18  GEORGE  m.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomu  SailUef         [191? 


the  Hospital  for  stockings ;  there  was  no  cough 
plaint  in  his  time  that  I  know  of;  the  men 
were  served  with  stockings  made  of  double 
yarn .  For  the  saJte  of  reducing  that  contract 
only  one  penny  a  pair,  or  thereabouts,  the 
contract  was  given  to  another  man;  who  made 
them  of  single  yarn,  which  was  of  very  little 
use  to  the  men.  When  the  stockings  were 
jeotnplained  of,  two  thirds  were  issued  to  the 
pensioners,  only  one  third  was  returned  to  the 
contractor,  and  instead  of  prosecutini;  him 
for  the  penalty,  they  let  him  off;  ahd  I  believe 
verily  the  same  stockings  were  afterwards  re- 
turned to  the  pensioners ;  there  is  a  hosier 
here  that  can  tell  you  more  of  that  matter 
than  myself,  because  he  viewed  a  great  num- 
ber of  those  stockings,  at  the  time  the  com- 
mittee of  enquiry  were  sitting,  who  refused  to 
inspect  into  this  matter ;  I  6eg  leave  to  ob- 
i5erve,  that  in  regard  to  desiring  the  steward 
of  the  Hospital  to  present  that  minute  of 
the  council  to  the  board  of  directors,  it  was 
said,  if  we  make  a  complaint  about  these 
stockings,  let  it  go  through  the  proper 
officer,  the  steward  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
your  complaint  mav  be  attended  to ;  we  have 
made  many  complaints  to  the  directors,  to 
which  we  "have  had  no  answer,  as  your  lord- 
rilips  will  see  by  the  minutes,  that  they  were 
never  attended  to,  and  therefore  we  applied 
through  the  proper  ofEcer,  hoping  it  would 
then  be  attended  to. 

Did  Tou  ever  employ  the  steward  upoft  that 
,80rt  of  business  before? — ^No. 

I  wonder  you  should  think  hitft  a  proper  of- 
ficer } — Because  he  is  a  servant  to  the  direc- 
tors, and  b^use  he  is  the  person  that  has  the 
inspection  of  all  those  kindis  of  stores,  receives 
them,  aod  ought  to  see  that  they  are  good 
andameable  to  the  contract;  he  ought  to 
tell  the  directors  of  it ;  it  is  not  to  be  sup- 
posed this  can  come  immediately  under  tfieir 
Lhowledge  without  his  information. 

If  you  had  sent  this  in  the  ordinary  way  by 
a  letter  to  the  secretary,  they  would  of  course 
have  sent  for  this  man,  and  had  the  informa- 
tion from  him,  who  was  the  proper  man  to 
^ve  it,  as  I  understood  at  the  beginning  of 
your  examination  upon  this  subject;  iff  am 
mistaken,  the  clerk  will  set  me  right.  I  un- 
derstood you  said;  that  it  was  improper  for  the 
council  to  apply  to  the  board'ot  directors  for 
any  order  at  all, 'and  you  thought  it  the  duty 
of  the  council  always  to  make  application  to 
the  Admiralty? — What  we  could  not  redress 
ourselves,  I  thought  it  our  duty  to  represent 
it  to  the  Admiral^ ;  no  complamt  can  arise  in 
Greenwich  Hospital,  but  irom  the  misconduct 
of  the  council  or  directors. 

I  understand  you  were  president  of  this  very 
council  who  applied  to  the  board  of  directors, 
whom  you  thinx  the  improper  persons  to  ap- 
ply to  ? — ^I  have  but  one  voice  at  the  councd, 
and  have  been  frequently  and  constantly  over- 
ruled at  the  council,  or  else  the  afiiurs  of  the 
Hospital,  I  humbly  conceive,  wKMdd  not  have 
been  in  we  plight  they  are  now  to.^ 

t 


Did  you  at  the  council  propose  preferring 
the  complaint  immediately  to  the  Admiralty 
or  to  the  directors?*— Not  in  that  particular 
instance  I  did  not,  but  I  have  in  others;  our 
commission  says,  when  we  cannot  redress  our- 
selves, as  I  understand,  we  are  to  apply  to  the 
board  of  Admiralty. 

There  have  been  firequent  instances  men- 
tioned of  provisions  having  been  represented 
to  the  jgovemor  and  board  of  directors  as  bad 
by  the  mal-practices  of  clerks  that  received 
them,  and  o!  the  contractors,  without  redress; 
are  there  any  more  instances  of  that  sort  than 
what  we  have  heard  of? — ^Upon  the  subject 
of  the  putnd  veal,  that  was  served  in  the  io- 
finnaiy,  I  believe  w^  wrote  three  times  to  the 
board  of  directors,  aiyl  to  the  governor,  who 
was  in  London;  and  in  order  to  stimulate 
the  governor,  we^wrote  him  firom  the  council 
inclosed  copies  of  two  letters  from  the  board 
of  Admiralty  to  the  council,  in  which  the 
duty  of  the  council  officers  is  particuliu-ly 
pointed  out,  and  no  answer-could  be  procuredL 

The  Minutes  of  the  15th  of  April,  17r4,  read: 

"  At  a  council  the  IMh  of  April,  1774.  The 
council  findinff  no  official  answer  is  come  from 
the  board  of  oirectors,  respecting  the  two  mi- 
nutes of  the  4th  and  8th  inst.  laid  before  them, 
complaining  that  the  clerks  had  not  done  their 
duty  by  receiving  the  meat  complained  of  by 
the  physician,  surgeon,  and  dispenser,  and 
also  that  the  oontraetor  had  veiy  much  im- 
posed upon  the  Hospital  in  sendine  such  meat, 
unanimously  denre,  that  the  genttemen  of  the 
council,  who  are  in  the  direction,  would  in- 
form  them  what  was  done  in  the  affiur. 

**  The  lieittenant-govemor  acquainted  th< 
that  he  had  told  the  directors  he  ho 
something  would  be  done,  as  the  butcher 
since  that,  on  Monday  the  1 1th  instant,  sent 
beef,  part  of  which  was  so  bad,  as  was  obliged 
to  be  returned  by  the  officers,  whose  duty  it 
was  to  inspect  it,  and  that  if  the  butcher  was 
permitted  to  »)  on,  the  patience  of  the  pen- 
sioners would  be  worn  out;  upon  which  the 
butcher  was  sent  for,  and  reprimanded. 

^  The  coimcil  are  therefore  unanimously  of 
opinion,  that  the  measures  taken  by  the  board 
of  directors^  after  such  incontrovertible  evi^. 
dence,  have  not  been  satisfactory  to  the  ooun* 
cil;  nor  etfectual  to  prevent  the  hke  abuses  for 
the  future,  &c. 

^'  The  council  are  likewise  of  opinion,  thai 
copies  of  the  two  minutes,  which  were  laid  be* 
fore  the  board  of  directors,  together  with  that 
of  the  18th  of  March,  be  laid  before  the  «>- 
vemor,  that  the  governor  may  please  to  tiuee 
such  steps  as  may  more  eftectuaUy  prevent 
such  mal-pcactices  of  the  clerks  and  con^ 
tractors -in  future;  and  that  copies  of  letters 
from  the  secretary  of  the  Admiralty  of  tho 
19th  of  April  and  7th  of  May,  1749,  to  sir 
John  Jennings,  be  also  hud  before  the  go- 
vernor; and  Uiat  whenever  'te  councii  hayo 
oceasion  to  lay  any  roattevs  befbcp  the  board 


US]        re^iecA^  ike  Royal  Hospital  at  Oreenwfch.         A.  D.  1778. 


[194 


if  (firedois,  tbegr  wish  to  have  offidal  answers 
tfaoeto.  By  ocder  of  the  Council. 

«  Daniel  Ball." 

Wb^  are  those  letters  that  are  referred  to 
in  that  minute?—**  They  are  three  letters 
tiiat  we  found  in  the  books  of  the  council^ 
film  a  late  secretary  of  the  Admiralty,  Mr. 
Coibett,  reprimandmg  the  counpil  very  se- 
Tordy  for  not  looking  minutely  into  the  afiairs 
of  the  Ho^ital ;  that  their  lordships  had  been 
infonned  oy  the  directors,  that  the  men  had 
been  defrauded  of  their  just  allowance  of  pro- 
visions, and  that  there  were  frauds  and  abuses 
in  the  Hospited  to  the  prejudice  of  the  ooor 
men;  that  he  was  commanded  by  their  lord- 
ships to  desire  4 he  governor  to  Altogether 
the  officers  of  the  council,  and  to  let  them 
know  that  thdr  lordships  thought  them  very 
btameable  for  suffering  such  abuses  to  be 
practised,  which  could  not  have  been  without 
their  extreme  indolence  in  not  looking  into 
the  a&irs  of  the  Hospital;  that  their  own 
cstdblishment  in  the'Hospital  was  for  the  go- 
verament,  care,  and  protection  of  the  poor 
DMO,  and  that  it  was  their  duty  to  kwk  daily 
ioto  every  thing,  and  to  remedy  every  dis- 
order. 

^  That  the  allegations  in  the  officers  report, 
tittt  the  penaioners  had  made  no  complaint, 
does  rather  aggravate  their  conduct,  in  suffer- 
iug  the  men's  patience  to  be  so  long  imposed 
upon. 

**  That  the  lords  of  the  Admiralty  had 
commanded  him  to  express  himself  in  such  a 
■umer  as  might  shew  their  wrath  and  dis- 
pleasure at  such  a  proceeding. 

**  That  their  lordships  did  very  well  know 
that  the  directors  had  no  power  but  in  the  ma- 
ugement  of  the  revenue  and  estates  of  the 
Hospital,  and  in  carrying  on  the  works  of  the 
faidtding,  nor  did  they  assimie  any  on  that  oc- 
CB9on;  but  their  lonfehips  should  always 
take  well  of  them  any  informations  that  tend 
to  rectify  any  roistajLes  or  omissions  whatso- 
ever concerning  the  state  of  the  Hospital.^' 

An  entry  read  of  an  order  of  the  council  the 
4th  of  April,  1774,  respecting  the  badness  of 
the  veal,  viz. 

"Present,  Lieutenant-governor  Baillie,  cap- 
tain Maple«len,  and  ten  other  officers  of  the 

OOUDcil. 

**  The  cook  of  the  infirmary  having  repre- 
Koted  to  the  dispenser,  that  the  veal  pro- 
vided for  the  sick  on  Sunday  last,  was  very 
bad,  aiKl  Mr.  Pocock  having  insoected  the 
ttnie,  was  of  that  opinion,  and  ordered  it  to 
he  carried  to  the  pnysician,  who,  finding  it 
uofit  for  the  pensioners  to  eat,  ordered  it  to 
he  retiiroed  to  the  butcher,  who  refused  to 
take  it  back,  saying,  in  justification  of  him- 
wlf,  that  it  had  been  received  by  Mr.  Court, 
the  clerk  of  the  cheque's  clerk,  and  Mr. 
Bambly,  one  of  the  steward's  clerks. 

**  The  council  were  therefore  unanimously 
of  opinion,  thai  the  botcher  had  very  much 

VOU  XXI. 


imposed  upon  the  Hospital,  by  sending  such 
bad  meat,  and  that  the  clerks  did  not  do  their 
duty  in  receivinjg  it,  and  beg  leave  to  lay  this 
copy  of  the  minute  before  the  board  of  di- 
rectors, that  they  maybe  pleased  to  give  such 
directions  as  may  be  thought  necessaiy  to 
))revent  the  like  impositions  m  future. 
"  By  order  of  the  Council, 

"  Daniel  Ball.** 

Was  the  complaint  made,  in  consequence 
of  this,  to  the  Wml  of  directors,  that  they 
did  not  eive  an  answer  to  it  ?— Capt.  Bailiie, 
Yes;  and  there  was  no  answer  to  it. 

In  the  minute  of  the  council,  of  the  15th 
of  April,  1774,  to  the  »)vemor,  notice  is  taken 
of  two  complaints  being  presented  lo  the 
board  of  directors,  to  which  they  received  lio 
answer  :  what  were  those  complaints? — 
Complaining  of  this  bad  veal :  afler  that  we 
complained  to  the  governor. 

Tnere  must  have  been  a  minute  of  council^ 
statins  that  complaint. — This  minute  of  the 
councn  relates  to  those  complaints. 

How  does  it  appear,  that  this  minute  of 
the  council  was  laid  before  the  board  of  di- 
rectors?— Mr.  Ball.  It  was  lud  before  the 
board  of  directors  by  myself,  who  officiate 
for  the  clerk  of  the  council. 

Does  it  appear  there,  that  it  was  ordered  to 
be  laid  before  the  board  of  directors? — Mr. 
Ball  reads :  "  Resolved,  that  a  copy  of  the 
minutes,  of  the  4th  and  8th  of  Apnl,  be  laid 
before  the  bcMud  of  directors,  for  their  infor- 
mation in  this  afiair ;  and  also  the  minute  of 
the  15th  to  be  laid  before  the  governor." 

Does  it  appear  by  any  minute  of  the  board 
of  directors,  that  it  was  laid  before  the  di- 
rectors ? — At  a  board  of  directors,  on  the  6th 
of  April,  a  minute  of  the  council  of  the  4th 
instant  vras  read,  in  relation  to  some  bad  vea), 
&c.  &c. 

Mr.  IbbetMon  called  in  again. 

Is  there  any  communication  of  that  to  the 
council  ? — As  much  as  there  ever  is,  in  any 
cases  of  this  kind ;  which  is,  that  the  lieute- 
nant-governor, and  several  of  the  members  of 
the  council  being  generally  at  a  board  of  di- 
rectors :  there  are  subsequent  minutes.  At 
the  next  mcetine,  which  was  on  the  18th  of 
April,  a  minute  of  council,  of  the  8th  inst.  was 
read,  relating  to  some  farther  particulars  con- 
cerning the  veal  complained  ol  by  them  in  the 
minute  of  the  4th  in^^^tant 

What  was  done  upon  that?— That  is  all  that 
was  stated  of  it ;  the  board  had  given  direc- 
I  tions  before ;  this  also  contains  some  fresh  in- 
formations with  respect  to  the  subject. 

Captain  Baillie,  I  beg  the  minute  of  coun- 
cil, of  the  8th  of  April,  may  be  read,  in  order 
to  explain  what  sort  of  veal  it  was. 

Mr.  Ball  reads  the  minute.    . 

"At  a  Council,  the  8th  of  April,  1774. 
Present,  lieutenant-governor  Bailbe,  captain 
Maplesden,  captain  AUwright,  and  eight 
others. 


195] 


IB  GEORGE  III.  Tkg-Ctue  of  Captain  Thofkas  BaiOier         [199 


"  Wherein  it  appeared,  that  the  cohtractor 
said,  he  was  ordered  to  send  in  small  veal  for 
the  sick,  by  Mr.  Taylor,  the  surgeon ;  and  Mr. 
Taylor  being  sent  for  by  the  council,  was  ask- 
ed whetlier  ne  ^ve  such  orders  to  the  butcher 
or  his  servants  r  He  answered^  that  he  never 
gave  such  orders,  directlv  or  indirectly ;  and 
tnat,  to  the  best  of  his  knowledge,  he  never 
saw  either  the  contractor,  or  any  of  his  people. 
Mr.  Taylor  being  likewise  asked,  whether  he 
saw  the  veal  complained  of  that  day,  said  he 
did;  and  being  asked  his  opinion  ot  it,  said  it 
appeared  extremely  indifferent ;  the  colour  not 
0)od,  verv  bony,  Uie  skin  flillof  air,  the  flesh 
nabby  and  loose,  and  in  no  degree  marketable : 
and  Mr.  Pocock,  the  dispenser,  being  asked 
his  opinion  of  it,  sai(L  it  appeared  to  him  to 
be  in  a  state  of  putrefaction,  and  confirmed 
Mr.  Tavlor's  opimon  of  the  meat.  Mr.  Tho- 
mas, the  surgeon's  assistant,  being  likewise 
asked  whether  h^  eave  any  orders  to  the  but- 
cher to  bring  smaU  veal,  said,  he  never  did ; 
and  it  further  appeared,'  by  uie  evidence  of 
James  Webb,  Thomas  Hardcastle,  and  others, 
that  the  butcher's  servant  refused  to  take  back 
this  veal,  &c. 

"  Resolved,  that  a  copy  of  this  minute  be 
laid  before  the  board  of  directors  for  further 
information  in  this  affair.    Daniel  Ball.'' 

Were  the  minutes  of  that  coimcil  laid  be- 
fore the  board  of  directors? — Certainly  they 
were. 

Let  us  see  what  was  done  in  consequence 
of  that? 

Captain  Baillie.  That  is  what  was  read  m 
the  director's  minute  of  the  13th.  Aflcr  this 
the  council,  on  the  15th,  made  representation 
to  the  governor,  hopins  we  might  have  an- 
swers  from  the  board  of  directors,  when  we  had 
occasion  to  apply  to  them ;  but  all  to  no  man- 
ner of  purpose ;  we  never  could  get  an  an- 
swer from  them  in  any  way. 

Was  there  any  remedy  given  ? — The  but- 
cher was  sent  for  to  the  board  of  directors, 
and  there  told  by  the  governor,  that  if  he  dia 
not  supplv  better  mea^  especially  for  the  sick, 
he  should  not  enjoy  the  contract  any  longer. 
I  have  already  told  your  lordships,  that  the 
butcher  said,  he  would  have  the  contract,  that 
he  would  supply  the  Hospital  with  meal^  and 
that  there  was  no  complaint  of  him  or  his 
meat  till  that  troublesome  fellow,  the  lieute- 
nant-governor, got  into  office. 

Q.  to  Mr.  BalL  You  are  the  secretary  of 
the  council  ? — Yes. 

It  would  appear  in  your  minutes,  if  there 
had  ever  been  transmitted  answers  from  the 
board  of  directors  to  the  council  ? — ^There  have 
been  minutes  from  the  board  of  directors,  but 
I  don't  remember  the  answers. 

Captain  Baillie.  I  recollect  one  instance, 
when  the  complaints  of  the  bad  quality  of  the 
beef  rose  to  an  enormous  height.  '  The  direc- 
tors answered  upon  a  remonstrance  from  the 
council,  that  they  had  acquiesced  in  their  de- 
sire to  cut  off  the  waler  cocks,  which  commu- 


nicated with  the  beer  pipes ;  it  was  on  the  lOtb 
of  May,  1777. 

Mr.  Ihbetson  called  in. 

.  What  is  the  usual  method  for  the  board  oC 
directors  upon  receiving  complaints  from  the 
council  at  Greenwich  Hospital,  whether  they 
ever  return  answers,  or  if  they  do.  in  wha^ 
manner?— The  general  practice  wnen  they 
make  anv  complaints,  the  board  redresses 
them  if  tney  can  be  redressed ;  there  is  gene- 
rally, or  almost  always  at  all  the  boards,  either 
the  governor  or  lieutenantrgovemor,  or  per^ 
sons  of  the  House,  present. 

Mr.  Ibbetaon  reads  an  entry  of  the  lOth  of 

May,  1777. 

"Present,  sir  Charles  Hardy  (governor), 
captain  Baillie  (heutenant-govemor),  captaia 
Hood  (treasurer)  sir  Peter  Dennis,  Mr.  Monh, 
and  several  others. 

"  The  board  resumed  the  consideration  of 
the  council  minutes  of  the  21st  and  S5tii  of 
last  month,  and  took  into  consideration  ano- 
ther minute  of  theirs  of  the  8th  instant,  rela« 
tive  to  the  bad  beer;  and  having  disooursed 
with  the  brewer,  came  to  the  following  resolu* 
tion,  viz. 

"That  all  the  water-cocks  in  the  brew- 
house,  which  communicate  to  the  beer  pipes, 
be  locked  up,  and  the  keys  delivered  into  tifie 
custody  of  the  steward,  till  they  shall  be  want* 
ed  for  the  purpose  of  opening  the  said  locks^ 
in  order  to  cleanse  those  pipes,  at  which  time 
he,  or  one  of  his  clerks,  are  to  attend  with 
tliem;  and  when  the  business  is  done,  vad 
the  cocks  locked  up,  to  take  care  of  the  keys, 
until  they  shall  be  wanted  again  for  the  iike 
purpose. 

"  The  brewer  was  at  the  same  time  told, 
that  he  must  attend  to  the  brewings  himself, 
taste  the  beer  before  it  be  drawn  Inftn  the 
vats  for  the  use  of  the  pensioners,  and  if  he 
finds  it  not  as  it  ought  to  be,  not  to  let  it  be 
drawn  off,  but  to  serve  such  as  is  ^ood,  and  in 
every  respect  fit  for  the  men  todnnk,  and  ne 
other,  for  which  purpose  he  is  always  to  hav« 
a  sumcient  stock  in  store;  and  if  he  finds  Uiat 
his  servants  are  negligent  or  incapable  of  their 
duty,  to  dismiss  them,  and  to  appoint  such 
others  as  he  may  think  more  diligent  and  ca- 
pable, in  their  stead.  AoO^^u"^®^*" 

Did  they  communicate  that  to  the  council  f 
— No,  nor  there  was  no  order  of  the  board, 
for  it  to  be  communicated ;  here  is  a  string  of 
resolutions,  and  the  remedy  is  applied  imm^" 
diately. 

What  have  you  to  say  to  this,  captain 
Baillie  ?— 4  beg  leave  first  to  say,  that  I  liave 
in  my  hand  a  copy  of  the  minute  which  Mr. 
Ihbetson  has  now  read,  nven'tomebvMr. 
Ball,  in  Ball's  own  tumd-wrking,  and  Mr. 
Ball  hav'mj;  no  access  to  the  minutes  of  Iks 
board  of  directors,  he  therefore  could  not  have 
furnished  me  with  a  copy  of  that  n^inute  but 
through  Af  r.  Ihbetson  or  his  clerk.  And  se- 
condly, I  beg  the  first  article  of  Mr.  Ibbetson's 
instrucUoES  may  be  reftd^  by  which  it  will  a[^ 


Iff]       nqMrfb^  tie  Royal  HospUal  ai  Grsmmch.         A.  D.  1778. 


[198 


pir,  thftt  be  k  onkred  to  give  ansyrers  in 
milfflg  to  aU  ptities,  making  repiesentatiMis 
totbe  boeid  of  directors;  otherwise,  if  the 
iieotenant^covtrnor  happens  not  to  be  pre- 
MDt  at  the  board,  it  is  impossible  the  council 
en  ever  hear  an^  thing  certain  concerning 
Ihe  oomphuntB  which  they  make. 

}fr.  Ibbetton  reads  the  first  article  of  his  In- 
structions from  a  printed  book. 

<*  The  secretaiy,  or  his  deputy,  is  to  attend 
at  ail  the  meetings  of  the  general  court  and  of 
liie  direcfeors,  and  to  read  all  papers  necessary 
Id  be  hid  before  them,  and  take  minutes  of 
tbop  proceedings,  copies  of  which  he  is  to  de« 
lirer  to  all  persons  concerned^  attested  under 
Ibs  hands. 

Cairtam  BaiUU,    That  is  what  I  allude  to. 

I  will  aak  captain  Baillie,  what  complaints 
do  jou  know  have  existed  relative  to  any  bad 
m?-*-A  great  number  of  complaints. 

It  there  one  short  &ct  about  it^  Do  you 
recollect  whether  at  one  time  there  was  any 
^eat  quantity  that  the  couiicil  thought  proper 
to  itart? — 111  barrels  of  bad  beertne  coundl 
weie  under  the  necessity  to  start  at  cme  time, 
because  they  were  mixing  it  with  new  beer  in 
the  tun,  for  the  use  of  the  pensioners. 

At  .what  time  was  that  ? — October  9,  1775 ; 
there  have  been  more  complaints  of  the  beer 
than  of  any  other  article,  and  it  is  a  material 
fart  of  the  provisions  of  the  pensioners. 

Does  it  appeat  that  the  beer  was  started  bv 
the  minutes  of  the  council? — ^I  should  think 
b  certainly  would. 

Mr.  Ball  reads  the  Minutes  of  the  Council^ 
October  9, 1775. 

-  "  Present,  lieutenantrgovemor  BaiUie ;  cap- 
tain Maplesden,  lieutenant  Gordon,  lieutenant 
^essoD,  lieutenant  Le  Fevre,  lieutenant  A  n- 
sell,  captain  Lynn,  lieutenant  Moyle,  lieute- 
nant Kerr,  lieutenant  Smith,  Mr.  Godby. 

^  The  lieutenant-governor  acquainted  the 
oouodl,  that  he  haid  received  repeated  com- 

e Its  from  the  officers  and  pensioners,  of  the 
quality  of  the  snudl  beer,  and  that  ne  had 
as  frequently  admonished  the  master  brewer 
thereof,  without  its  being  properlv  remedied* 
bi  ODDsequence  of  which  he  now  laid  the  said 
connJunt  bdBmre  them,  agreeable  to  the  17th 
article  of  the  eeneral  instructions,  for  the  re- 
Spiating,  and  better  government  of  the  pen- 
aioneis  and  servants  of  the  said  Hospital, 
wherein  they  are  directed  to  apply  a  proper 
flcmedy,  without  delay,  to  all  just  causes  of 
comnhunt  The  council  thereupon  went  to 
^  brewhouse,  and  tasted  each  vat  of  beer 
3«psrBtely,  and  found  111  barrels  of  the  said 
^^,  as  sour  as  the  nature  of  small  beer  would 
■dmitof;  aadjwere  unanimously  of  opinion, 
that  it  was  neither  ^od,  wholesome,  or  fit  for 
^  pensioQers  to  drmk ;  and  that  it  would  be 
Judicial  to  the  health  of  the  men  to  have 
vm  that  was  turned,  broke  into  new  beer  in 
^  tun,  which  haUi  been  hitherto  practised ; 
vUic&tt  flrdef^  ihe  said  beer  to  be  started. 


to  prevent  such  practice  in  future.  The  coun~ 
cil  also^  upon  tasting  the  beer  for  present  use, 
found  it  good  tasted,  but  very  small,  and 
scarce  fit  to  keep  a  week,  firom  brewing  to 
brewing.  And  the  master  brewer  being  culed 
in,  and  asked  the  reasons  concerning  ue  po- 
verty of  the  beer,  answered,  that  it  could  not 
be  otherwise  during  the  three  sunmier  months, 
firom  the  heat  of  the  weather,  and  drawing  six 
barrels  of  beer  from  a  quarter  of  malt ;  there- 
fore proposed  dnwing  half  a  barrel  less  during 
the  above  monUis.  which  would  make  a  ma^ 
terial  alteration  in  the  quality  of  the  beer. 

.  **  The  oouncil  having  maturely  considered 
the  causes  that  mieht  afiect  the  quality  of  the 
beer,  and  examinea  the  malt  and  hops,  and 
compared  the  same  with  other  samples,  found 
the  malt  good,  but  the  hops  of  an  inferior 
quality;  and  having  likewise  considered  the 
frequent  complaints  made  formerly  in  the 
summer  months,  do  unanimously  recommend 
to  the  board  of  directors,  the  master  brewer's 
proposal,  for  making  no  more  than  five  bar- 
rels and  a  half  of  small  beer  (instead  of  six) 
from  a  quarter  of  malt,  during  three  months 
in  the  summer,  in  order  to  answer  the  com- 
fortable and  siedutary  end  intended  for  the 
general  welfare  of  the  establishment.  Ad« 
joumed." 

Captain  Baillie.  I  beg  leave  to  observe,  my 
lords,  that  this  bad  beer  was  not  during  the 
summer  months,  but  in  October,  that  is  our 
October  in  Greenwich  Hospital. 

Are  there  any  more  minutes  of  the  council 
respecting  the  bad  beer? — Yes,  April  21st, 
asth.  May  8th  and  30th,  1777. 

Read  them. 

Mr.  Ball  reads. 

"  At  a  Council  held  in  the  Royal  Hospital  for 
Seamen  at  Greenwich,  April  81, 1777. 

"  Present,  lieutenant-^vemor  BaiUie ;  cap- 
tain Maplesden,  captain  Lynn^  lieutenant 
Moyle,  lieutenant  Kerr,  lieutenant  Smith, 
captain  Allwrigbt,  captain  Chads,  lieutenant 
Besson,  lieutenant  Le  r  evre,  lieutenant  Ansell. 

^<  The  Minutes  of  the  last  Council  were  read 
and  confirmed. 

*'  The  Ueujtenantrgovemor  acquainted  the 
council  that  ci^itain  Allwru;ht,  the  captain  of 
the  week,  upon  duty,  informed  him,  that 
Adam  Meldrum,  a  pensioner,  had,  in  a  very 
quiet,  decent,  and  orderly  manner,  complained 
to  him  in  behalf  of  himself  and  several  other 
pensioners,  that  their  allowance  of  beer,  for 
several  days  successively,  had  been  of  so  bad 
a  quality,  that  they  could  not  dnnk  it;  that 
the  beer  served  to  them  in  the  morning  grew 
sour  by  the  evening :  that  in  consequence  of 
such  representation,  the  lieutenant-governor 
directed  captain  Allwrigbt,  and  lieutenant 
Ansell,  the  lieutenant  for  the  week,  to  taste 
the  b€>er  at  the  sinks  at  the  usual  hour  of 
serving  it,  and  to  report  to  him  if  there  was 
any  just  cause  of  complaint ;  and  they  having 
reported  to  him  yesterday,  that  they  nad  tast« 


199] 


IB  GEORGE  m.         The  Case  ofCdpUm  Tkamu  Same,         [900 


ed  the  beer  at  the  sinks,  which  was  of  a  veiy 
indifferent  quality,  and  Uie  butler  coniirming 
the  same,  tue  iieutenant-goveraor  lays  the 
matter  before  the  counciL  agreeable  to  the 
17  th  article  of  the  orders  tor  tne  better  regu- 
lating the  pensioners  and  servants  of  the  said 
Hospital. 

"  Adam  Meldrum^  a  pensioner,  being  then 
called  in,  and  asked  what  cause  he  had  to  find 
fault  wiUi  the  beer,  said,  it  had  no  taste  either 
of  malt  or  hops;  that  if  he  kept  it  three  or 
four  hours  it  erew  sour,  and  gave  him  the 
gripes ;  and  tnat  it  continued  in  the  same 
state  the  whole  week ;  and  says,  be  was  in- 
formed it  affected  several  other  men  in  the 
same  manner.  Being  asked,  why  he  did  not 
complain  sooner,  says,  that  several  people 
talked  of  complaining,  but  deferred  it,  in 
ho])es  that  the  beer  would  be  better ;  upon 
which  he  replied,  that  he  would  complain  to 
captain  Chaos,  and  to  captadn  Allwright,  the 
captain  of  the  week. 

^'Joseph  Sunpson,  another  complainant, 
being  asked  if  he  had  any  cause  to  complain  of 
the  beer,  says,  it  was  of  a  sour,  watiy,  cold  qua- 
litv  for  about  eight  or  ten  days  past ;  and  being 
asked,  why  he  did  not  complam  sooner,  saio, 
be  was  sorr^'  to  be  the  first,  hoping  it  would 
be  better,  but  that  the  bad  quality  of  the  beer 
frequently  eave  him  the  gripes ;  and  that  he 
was  served  with  the  beer  at  the  north  side  of 
the  hall. 

"  Several  other  pensioners  gave  much  the 
same  account;  declaring,  that  all  the  men  in 
their  wards  also  complained  of  the  bad  -beer. 
The  two  sink-men  oi  the  east  and  west  dining 
balls,  sai(L  they  imputed  the  bad  beer  to  a 
mixture  of^  beer  ana  water,  sent  in  through 
the  pipes  from  the  brewhouse ;  that  they  had 
complsuned  to  the  butler  three  times  in  eight 
days ;  that  they  had  frequently  seen  20  ^Uons 
of  water  let  in  between  the  old  vat  bemg  out 
and  the  new  vat  turned  on ;  and  the  same 
was  corroborated  by  many  others  that  that  had 
beenpractised  for  some  years  past. 

'^  The  butler  beins  asked,  if  he  knew  the 
cause  of  the  bad  quality  of  the  beer,  said,  he 
supposed  it  to  proceed  from  a  mixture  of  beer 
and  water  turned  on  from  the  brewhouse. 

''Mr.  Fearon,the  master  brewer,  being  call- 
ed in,  and  the  foregoing  declarations  of  the 
pensioners  read  to  him.  was  asked,  to  what 
cause  he  attributed  the  bad  quality  of  the  beer 
for  eight  da;^s  past,  said,  that  the  buUer  sent 
to  inform  him,  that  there  was  water  mixed 
with  the  beer;  and  bavins  enquired  of  Pope, 
the  foreman,  was  informed  by  him,  that  there 
was  a  cock  which  had  communication  with 
the  reservoir  of  water  to  the  pipes  that  convey 
the  beer  from  the  brewhouse  to  the  sinks, 
which  he  supposed  leaked ;  that  he  sent  to 
the  clerk  of  the  works'  office^  and  had  it  re- 
paired. And  Mr.  Fearon  bemg  asked,  whe- 
ther he  found  any  surplus  of  beer  from  the 
quantitv  of  water  let  in  between  the  servings 
fix>m  the  different  vats,  remarked,  that  one 
day  last  week  he  had  three  barrels  and  a  half 
surplus. 


"  John  PopCj^the  foreman,  being  asked  if  he 
knew  the  cause  of  the  bad  quality  of  thebeer, 
said,  there  was  a  leak  m  the  cock  that  com- 
municates with  the  water  firom  the  reservoir 
to  the  main  pipe,  which  he  supposed  mixed 
with  the  beer ;  uiat  he  applied  seven  or  eij^t 
times  to  the  clerk  of  the  works'  office  before 
he  could  get  it  repsured^  and  that  it  was  near 
six  months  since  his  mrst  application ;  that 
when  he  first  applied  to  tne  clerk  of  the 
works'  office,  he  acquainted  the  master  brewer 
with  the  defect 

'^  Mr.  Skecn,  who  attends  for  the  clerk  of  the 
works,  being  called  in,  said,  that  about  a 
month  ago,  Mr.  Fearon,  the  master  brewer, 
sent  a  note  to  the  office,  to  repair  the  pipes  at 
the  brewhouse  that  wanted  mending,  which 
was  done  accordinglr ;  and  that  whenever  any 
application  was  made  from  the  master  brewer 
to  repair  the  pipes,  it  was  done  immediately. 

''  The  council,  from  the  foregoing  declanie- 
tions,  are  of  opinion,  that  the  frequent  com- 
plaints of  the  badness  <^  the  beer  proceeds 
from  the  ready  and  easy  communication  of 
the  water  cocks  with  the  pipes  which  conv^ 
the  beer  fit>m  the  brewhouse  to  the  sinlc 
where  the  beer  is  served ;  and  therefore  re- 
commend it  to  the  board  of  directors,  for  the 
safety  and  security  of  the  pensioners,  that 
their  beer  may  not  be  inpoverished  with 
water,  to  have  the  communication  of  the 
water  cocks  cut  off,  as  the  beer  pipes  may  be 
cleansed  without  them. 

^  Daniel  Ball,  Clerk  of  theCoundL*' 

Was  this  representation  laid  before  the 
board  of  directors  ? 

Capt  Baillie.  Yes,  it  was ;  but  we  receiv- 
ed no  answer:  the  brewer  was  discoitfsed 
with  again,  upon  these  complaints,  by  thetli- 
rectors. 

Mr.  Ibbetson  read  a  Minute  of  the  7th  of 
October  1776,  at  a  Meeting  of  the  Directors, 
&c.  &c. 

Q.  to  Capt.  BailUe.  What  was  done  in 
consequence  of  this  ? — I  don't  recollect  that 
there  was  any  such  desire  to  me  or  the  coun- 
cil, directly  or  indirectly,  in  any  way  what- 
ever, to  survey  the  beer  in  the  brewhouse ; 
nor  was  I  to  be  a  messenger  from  the  board 
of  directors  to  the  council  of  the  Hospital ;  it 
would  well  beccHne  the  directors  themselves 
to  visit  the  brewhouse.  No  such  minute  ever 
appeared  at  the  coimcil :  our  complaint  was 
on  the  9th  of  October,  1775. 

Q.  to  Mr.  Ihbetstm.  Was  capt.  Baillie  pie- 
sent  at  that  meeti^  ? — ^He  was  president. 

Capt.  Baillie  The  board  of  directors  have 
the  expenditure  of  the  money  of  the  Hospital, 
and  not  the  council,  and  therefore  the  obneo- 
tors  are  responsible  that  all  sorts  of  stores  and 
provisions  be  good. 

Mr.  lbbet9on.  It  is  something  extraordi- 
nary that  this  recommendation  to  the  counciL 
which  must  have  been  carried  to  the  councu 
by  somebody,  is  dated  the  7  th  of  October,  and 
on  the  9th  of  October  it  appears  that  thejr 


'9t\       rapeeHmg  Hie  Uogei  HtapUti  ai  Greemoich*        A.  D.  1778. 


[90V 


bd  been  to  tiie  faiewlKMise,  and  started  this 

greitquuithy  of  sour  beer. 

Then  on  the  9th  there  is  an  unanimous  re- 
pnsentttion  to  Uie  board  of  directors;  what 
I  vsDted  you  to  read»  was,  the  proceedings  of 
the  board  of  directors,  in  consequence  of  this 
representation  of  the  9th  ? 

Mr.  /Mef  «m.  I  dont  see  any  thing  upon 
that  minute. 

When  was  the  next  meeting  of  the  directors 
sfterthe9th  ?— The  18th. 

Is  there  no  notice  taken  of  it  there  ? — No ; 
bat  1  remember  very  well,  the  board  of  direc- 
tofSy  xsfoa  some  occasion,  I  don't  know  whe- 
ther it  was  this,  or  upon  some  representation 
of  the  brewer,  thinkmg  it  very  unproper.  to 
make  any  alteration,  or  to  allow  anv  more 
mah  or  bops  than  had  been  usually  allowed, 
far  every  Dody  knew  his  predecessor  had 
breved  good  beer,  and  every  body  knows  his 
successor  brews  very  good  beer. 

Was  any  bo^  punished  in  consequence  of 
das;  the  officer  whose  business  it  was  to  in- 
spect this?  Does  capt.  Baillie  know  of  any 
body  that  was  punished  ? 

Capt  BaiiUe.  I  donH  know  that  any  notice 
vas  taken  of  it. 

Was  the  brewer  dismissed  ? — ^No ;  on  the 
coDtiary,  there  was  bad  beer  again ;  particu- 
larly in  the  months  of  April  and  May,  1777 : 
the  men  assembled  in  a  t)od^,  and  threatened 
to  go  to  the  lords  of  the  Admvalty :  threaten- 
ed to  go  to  St.  James's ;  I  had  oifficulty  to 
keep  Uiem  back. 

Does  Mr-  Ibbetson  laa5w  whether  the 
brewer  or  bop-&ctor  were  dismissed  in  conse- 
(pience  of  this  ? — ^Not  in  consequence  of  this ; 
oat  there  are  manv  entries  by  which  your 
lordships  will  see  tnat  the  board  of  directors 
took  a  deal  of  pains  upon  the  subject. 

Read  the  minutes  of  council  or  the  board  of 
directors,  as  they  come  in  order. 

.  Mr.  Ibbetson  reads  the  Minutes  of  the  Coun- 
dl,  April  81, 1777. 

Mr.  libetton.  There  came  with  it,  at  the 
same  time,  one  of  the  S5th ;  they  were  both 
laid  before  the  board  together :  at  a  meeting 
of  the  board  of  directors,  on  the  dOth^  the  next 
after  this,  two  minutes  of  the  council,  one  of 
the  Sist,  another  of  the  25th'  instant,  were 
Isid  before  the  board :  at  the  next  meeting  of 
the  directors  at  Greenwich,  dated  the  SOth  of 
May,  tlie  board  resumed  the  consideration  of 
the  council  minutes  respecting  the  beer,  and 
took  into  consideration  another  minute  of  the 
8th,  relative  thereto :  at  a  subsequent  meet^ 
iog,  which  is  the  41st  of  May,  a  letter  of  this 
date  iiom  the  steward  was  raid. 

Whether  there  are  any  steps  taken  between 
the  first  complaint  that  was  read,  previous  to 
this,  which,  if  I  don't  mistake,  is  in  October, 
W5,  between  1775,  and  May  1777,  that  is 
wvc  a  year  and  a  half,  whether  any  steps 

were  taken  to  rectify  the  complaints  that  had 
K^eea  made  before  ?-^I  do  beheve  that  there 


were  no  firesh  complaints  laid  before  the  di- 
rectors from  the  council  in  that  interval. 

Were  any  steps  t^en  in  consequence  of 
the  first  coinplaint  in  177.%  by  the  board  of 
directors? — The  board  of  directors  did  under- 
stand what  the  council  had  done  in  going  to 
the  brewhouse,  and  starting  all  that  bad  beec, 
which  I  believe  they  do  not  think  they  were 
perfectly  right  in  doing,  without  consulting 
them;  for  it  was  a  very  large  quantity  of 
beer ;  which,  though  it  was  not  fit  for  the  use 
of  the  men,  it  mi^ht  have  been  of  some  value 
to  the  Hospital ;  in  coi^equence  of  that  step, 
in  the  new  book  of  rules  and  orders,  that  has 
been  published  under  the  charter,  there  is  an 
express  direction,  that  whatever  things  upon 
surveys  shall  be  found  unserviceable,  £all  not 
be  thrown  away  or  destroyed. 

I  want  to  know  .whether  any  ponishmenk 
was  iniiicted  upon  the  brewer,  for  offering  to 
give  to  the  men  such  a  quantity  of  beer  ml 
was  unserviceable  ? — ^I  don't  know  that  thera 


was. 


Was  any  punishment  inflicted  upon  the 
officer  whose  duty  it  was  to  inspect  into  it  ?-^ 
No. 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich.  Was  there  not  a 
man,  a  turncock,  that  was  detected  in  em- 
bezzling the  beer,  and  turned  off  for  it? — That 
is  a  very  curious  anecdote  indeed ;  Uiere  was 
a  man  who  had  attended  at  one  of  those  sinks 
or  places  where  the  beer  is  drawn,  this  man 
appears  by  the  minutes;  his  name  I  have  just 
read ;  he  is  a  principal  complainant  in  this 
business,  and,  as  the  council  afterwards. un- 
derstood, a  man  who  had  stimulated  others 
very  much  to  complain ;  this  man,  in  the  ab- 
sence of  capt.  Baillie,  was  brought  before  the 
council ;  it  was  one  of  those  council  of  four 
only,  that  I  have  ever  attended  since  I  have 
had  the  honour  to  belong  to  the  council.  I 
did  examine  him,  and  took  minutes,  which  I 
believe  are.  now  in  my  box ;  it  appeared  as 
clear  as  possible,  that  this  man  had  embezzled 
great  quantities  of  beer,  had  carried  and  given 
to  the  Doys  more  than  their  proportion,  more 
to  the  helpless  ward  than  their  proportion; 
that  they  nad  given  him  money  and  drams 
for  the  difference.  He  had  embezzled  the  ale 
upon  festival  days  in  large  quantities,  and 
sent  it  out  to  his  own  house ;  upon  all  this 
appearing  to  the  council,  they  Ordered  this 
man  to  be  expelled,  and  I  joined  in  that 
heartily ;  now  the  situation  of  these  sinks, 
where  the  beer  is  drawn,  is  such,  that  it  is  in 
the  power  of  the  sink-men  themselves  to  mix 
the  beer  with  water;  for  there  is  a  water- 
cock,  as  I  understand,  in  order  to  cleanse  the 
beer  away  that  is  spilt,  that  there  is  a  water- 
cock  at  lumd ;  the  beer  is  drawn  off  in  large 
black  jacks,  four  or  five  feet  high ;  it  is  much 
in  the  power  of  men  standing  there  to  draw 
beer,  to  make  up  a  deficiency  uiey  have  occar- 
sioned  by  embezzling,  to  fill  it  up  with  a  little 
water ;  uiat  struck  me  and  the  council,  that 
this  man,  who  was  a  principal  complainant, 
had  been  the  iasUumentifi  Busing  tne  beer; 


A 


•JKBd 


18  OEOROE  III.  ne  Case  ofCapUun  Thmas 


tsof 


iiow«ver  tbitf  enffebealement  was  veryclewiy 
proved,  and  he  was  expelled. 
>  What  was  the  date  of  that  expulsion  ? — 
Upon  referring  to  the  book,  it  is  the  82d  of 
.August,  1777. 

Capt  Baillie,  go  on  with  any  further  account 
jou  have  to  give. — If  your  lordships  will  be 
bO  good  as  hear  the  minutes  of  tne  8th  of 
Ma^,  1777,  read,  and  also  of  the  S6th  of 
April.  / 

Mr.  Ball  reads. 

**  At  a  Council  held  in  Royal  Hospital  for  Sea- 
men at  Greenwich,  April  25,  1777. 

'*  The  master  plumber  to  the  Hospital  de- 
clared, that  it  was  impossible  such  ouantities 
of  water  could  issue  from  any  leak  in  the 
bee^  pipes,  and  proposed  cutting  off  the  water 
cocks  and  fixing  a  key,  and  lodging  it  with 
the  commanding  officer." 

'^  At  a  Council  held  the  8th  of  May,  1777. 

''  In  consequence  of  a  complaint  from  all 
the  pensioners  in  the  east  dming  hall,  this 
morning,  of  the  badness  of  the  beer,  which 
they  remsed  to  take,  that  it  was  watery  and 
ill-t^tcd ;  and  Mr.  Godby,  the  steward,  hav- 
ing, in  the  absence  of  the  lieutenant  governor, 
acquainted  the  captain  of  the  week,  that  it 
was  not  fit  to  be  served  to  the  pensioners,  the 
captain  desired  it  might  be  started  into  casks 
'and  guaged,  and  another  vat  of  firesh  beer 
served  :   and  this  aflemoon,  at  half  past  two 
o'clock,  all  the  men  in  both  halls  complauied 
to  the  lieutenant  governor,  that  thev  beer 
was  ill-tasted  and' wateiy ;  and  he  having  di- 
rected the  captain  and  heutenant  of  the  week, 
with  the  steward*s  clerk,  in  the  absence  of 
the  steward  to  taste  the  beer,  and  report  to 
him  if  there  was  just  cause  of  complaint,  and 
thev  having  reported  to  him  that  the  beer  is 
bad,  ill-tasted,  and  watery,  and  not  fit  for  any 
men  to  drink,  the  lieutenant  governor  there- 
,upon  summoned  a  council,  who  sent  for  se- 
veral pots  of  beer  firom  both  ends  and  the 
middle  of  each  dining  hall ;  and  are  unani- 
mously of  opimon,  that  it  is  thick,  ill-tasted, 
and  watery,  and  not  fit  for  the  pensioners  to 
drink,  therefore  resolved   to   renair  to  the 
l)rewhouse,  to  taste  the  beer  in  tne  vats,  and 
found  two  vats^  numbers  ten  and  sixteen,  of 
the  same  brewmg  not  fit  to  be  served  to  the 
pensioners ;  and  having  tasted  another  brew- 
ing,   which  was  som^ing  better,   ordered 
that  the  same  be  served,  there  being  none  of 
*a  better  sort  in  the  brewhouse.    TKe  master 
brewer  being  asked  what  he  had  to  say  re- 
^^cting  the  quality  of  the  beer,  acknowledge 
tnat  it  was  weak,  ^nd  of  a  very  indifferent 
quality. 

'^Resolved,  that  the  lieutenant  governor  be 
desired  to  wait  upon  the  governor  with  a  copy 
of  the  above  mmutes,  Hoping  he  will  take 
some  method  with  the  board  of  directors  for 
the  relief  of  the  pensioners.    Daniel  Ball.'' 

.    Capt.  BatlHe.    I  have  besides  survevs  of 
the  officers  of  the  Hospital  upon  jlhe  oeer, 


wherein  theyfr^port  the  be^  ao%  to  be  good  ..^ 
the  5th  of  Jiuy^  1774 ;  there  is  a  survey  upoi» 
the  beer. 
Read  those  surv^s. 

"  Royal  Hospital  Greenwich,.  July  5, 1774^ 
**  Sir ;  accoroing  to  your  desire,  we  have 
tasted  the  beer  complained  of,  and  find  it  thick 
and  weak,  but  neither  stinking  nor  sour ;  and 
as  there  is  only  a  small  quantity,  sufficient  to 
serve  two  days,  are  of  Opinion,  that  it  is  not 
so  bad  as  to  be  thrown  awa^,  but  that  the 
pensioners  may  drink  H. — We  are,  Sb-,  your 
most  humble  servants^'  Jarvis  Maplesdeny. 
captain.  A.  Gordon,  lieutenant,  Theodore 
Court,  for  Mr.  Maule,  clerk  of  the  cheque. 

T  am  of  opinion  that  it  is  not  baa  small 
beer.— John  Godby.'^ 
"  To  the  lieutenant  governor." 

Here  is  another  report  signeii  the  dd  oT 
October,  1775. 
Read  it. 

"  Royal  Hospital  Greenwich,  Oct.  2, 1775, 
"  Sir ;  -agreeable  to  your  desire,  we  have 
been  to  the  brewhouse  and  tasted  the  small 
beer  for  the  use  of  the  pensioners ;  but  as  the 
master  brewer  has  intimated  to  us,  that  he  is 
to  give  his  reasons  to  the  board  of  directors 
ne.vt  Saturday,  relative  to  the  said  beer,  we 
beg  leave  to  postpone  our  opinion  for  the  pre- 
sent— We  are.  Sir,  your  most  humble  ser- 
vants, Francis  Lynn,  W.  Lefevre,  J.  Hossack^ 
John  Godby;  for  Mr.  Maule,  Theodore 
Court." 
"  To  lieutenant  governor  Baillie." 

Were  they  a  committee  fi-om  the  council 
or  from  the  directors  ? — The  brewer  intimated 
he  was  to  dve  his  reasons  to  the  bowd  of  di* 
rectors,  and  not  to  the  council. 

Were  those  people  who  have  signed  that 
report  a  committee  of  the  council  ?  Did  the 
council  authorise  them  to  make  the  survey  ? 
— ^No;  ,it  has  beeh  the  custom  firequently, 
upon  particular  occasions,  for  the  command- 
ing officer  to  order  such  a  survey. 

Are  there  any  rules  and  orders  authorizing 
the  Heutenant  eovemor  to  order  such  a  sur- 
vey ? — I  don't  know  that  there  are ;  it  has 
been  the  custom. 

There  was  no  person  punished  for  this 
beer? — ^Neither  the  brewer,  his  servant,  the 
steward,  nor  the  clerk  of  the  cheque,  nor 
either  of  tlieir  clerks,  that  I  know  of. 

Whose  business  is  it  to  inspect  the  beer? — 
The  steward  and  the  clerk  of  the  cheque,  and 
their  clerks,  are  to  inspect  the  brewery. 

The  BaA  of  CheUerJield.  Whether  the  beer 
has  been  in  general  good,  or  in  general  bad,  in 
the  Hospital? — There  have  been  a  great  num- 
ber of  Complaints. 

That  is  not  an  answer.  I  want  to  know  if, 
in  general,  the  beer  was  bad }  You  sud  many 
people  preferred  being  put  upon  the  butler*s 
list,  beoiuse  by  that  means  the)r  had  their 
small  beer  at  the  Hospital,  which  is  free  ircMn 
excise,  and  better  than  tlw^y. could  buy;  I 


'SnS]        re^eeUmg  the  Royai  Hospittd  at  Greenmch*         A.  D.  1778. 


[S06 


ka\  tfamk  bad  beer  is  better  than  money  to  | 
buf  good ;  I  tiwat  to  have  that  explained  ? — ^1 
dool  understand  that  the  small  beer  is  alwieiys 
kd;  but  these  last  four  years  it  has  not  been 
^  beer,  such  as  might  have  been  expected" 
ID  a  royal  brewhouse.  I  don't  know  the 
OBBber  pot  upon  the  butler^s  list  annually ; 
tliBc  may  be  ten  or  twenty  added,  in  a  year, 
BD  ereat  number. 

ms  tbat  been  the  reason  the  last  four  years, 
as  vellas  fonner  years  when  the  beer  was  good, 
t)f  ben^  put  upon  the  butler's  list  ?>-The  peo- 
jk  upon  the  butler's  list  get  almost  as  much 
aswhcD  they  are  upon  the  money  list. 

Hive  the  numbers  differed  ? — ^I  don't  know 
as  to  that  point ;  many  of  the  men  prefer  the 
butler's  list  to  the  money  list. 

Mr.  Godby  called  in  again. 

Eave  there  been  any  complaints  made  of  the 
badness  of  the  beer,  since  Luke  Davis  has 
been  expelled  P — I  don't  recollect  one. 


Wednesd4i^y  March  S4. 

The  Lords  met  again  on  the  business. of 
Greenwich  Hospital. 

The  Duke  of  Richmond  rose  and  moved, 
*Thatthe  chairman  of  the  committee  do  leave 
the  chur,  and  that  the  House  be  resumed." 

His  g|race  insisted  upon  it,  that  as  he  meant  to 
tomolnn  of  a  breach  of  privilege  i^inst  capt. 
UaiMesden,  for  sending  sway  from  the  House, 
wtaesses  imder  summons  from  their  Itfrdships, 
his  motion  was  a  matter  of  right,  and  not  of 
debate;  that  all  complaintsof  breach  of  privi- 
lege, according  to  the  standing  orders  on  the 
journals,  must  supersede  every  other  business ; 
he  therefore  would  not  recede  from  urging, 
-that  the  House  be  resumed. 

His  mce  defended  the  pensioners  who  had 
dieereu  the  lords,  as  they  entered  the  House, 
and  said,  that  tnere  was  no  breach  of  the 
peace' in  their  conduct;  th&t  the  warmth 
they  shewed  did  them  honour;  that  it  was 
the  characteristic  of  British  seamen ;  a  sam- 
ple of  that  honest  zeal,  to  the  repeated  exer- 
tions of  which  this  country  owed  all  its  great- 
ness, its  happiness,  and  its  glory !  He  also  laid 
it  down  as  a  matter  of  nght,  for  the  pen- 
sioners, or  for  any  other  persons  whose  cause 
cither  was,  or  was  not,  unaer  the  consideration 
t>f  ]iariiament,  V6  Stand  in  the  street  near  the 
^oon  of  parliament,  so  long  as  they  did  not 
commit  what  the  law  term^  a  riot,  or  what 
the  law  construed  a  breach  of  the  peace ;  on 
the  other  hand,  he  argued,  that  captain  Ma^ 
plesden  had  been  guilty  of  a  eross  insult  lb 
that  House,  in  a  most  unjustilable  piece  of 
conduct  respecting  the  pensioners.  What- 
^er  might  be  the  discipline,  even  the  neces- 
Miy  diaapline  of  the  Hospital  at  Greenwich. 
^  held  it  as  a  matter  exceedingly  clear  ana 
•obvious,  that  when  the  pensioners  were  sum- 

^ned  as  witnessBes  df  tn&t  House,  that  during 
w  operation  of  the  susmionsi  aU  discipline, 


respecting  them  as  (>ensioners,  must  be  sui- 
pended ;  they  were  in  charge  of  their  lord- 
ships, and  not  subject  to  the  controui  of  any 
other  persons  whatever.  That  telling  the 
witnesses  that  he  would  mark  them,  arid 
holding  up  his  cane,  were  tokens  of  awe,  and 
tokens  of  menace,  which  he  could  prove  MV. 
Maplesden  used,  and  which  might  nave  a  bad 
effect  on  the  minds  of  men,  who,  from  their 
situation,  were  under  his  influence  as  lieute- 
nant-governor. 

His  grace  said,  such  a  mode  of  conduct 
might  effectually  check  and  prevent  the  ob- 
ject of  the  present  enquiry,  which  was  the 
discovery  of  truth.  Upon  the  whole,  he  con- 
tended, that  the  matter  highly  demand^  their 
lord^ps'  attention,  and  that  the  present  was 
of  all  periods  the  most  proper  to  take  it  under 
consideration ;  because,  if^  it  were  not  imme- 
diately enquired  into,  such  pensioners  as  It 
should  appear  necessary  to  call  to  the  bar,  in 
the  future  course  of  the  enquiry,  would  be 
afraid  to  speak  out,  if  they  were  not  certain  of 
meeting  with  the  protection  of  their  lordships ; 
and  the  lieutenant-governor  might  go  on,  pu- 
nishing and  im])bfiing  mulcts  upon  the  wit- 
nesses, if  he  were  not  given  to  understand, 
that  the  House  kept  a  wary  eye  on  his  pro- 
ceedings. 

The  Lord  Chancellor  as  strenuously  con- 
tended, that  captain  Maplesden's  conduct  ra- 
ther merited  the  prusc  than  the  censure  of 
their  lordships.     He  declared  he  had  himself 
observed  tiie  mob  of  pensioners,  at  the  door  of 
the  House,  when  he  alighted  fit>m  his  coach ; 
that  their  behaviour  was  very  improper  and 
unseemly;  that  he  expected  to  have  heard 
something  relative  "to  it,  in  the  course  of  last 
Wednesday's  business ;  that  it  was  extremely 
wrong  to  suffer  the  doors  of  parliament  to  be 
besieged  either  by  Greenwich  pensioners,  or 
by  any  other  description  of  persons,  whose 
cause  was  under  parliamentary  enquiry ;   the 
example,  thouzh  m  the  present  case  not  very 
alarming,  might  be  extended  so  far  as  to  be- 
come matter  of  serious  wrong  ;  that  the  peers 
of  that  House,  or  the  members  of  the  othef, 
oueht  to  have  free  and  undisturbed  access  to 
bo3i  chambers  of  parliament.    If,  however, 
the  noble  duke  was  resolved  to  make  a  formal 
complaint  of  a  breach  of  privilege,  undoubted- 
ly he,  or  any  other  peer,  nad  a  right  to  prefer 
such  a  complaint ;   in  that  case,  be  intreated 
the  noble  duke  to  consider  whether  it  would 
not  be  better  to  let  the  complaint  stand  over 
till  the  enquiiy  was  ended ;   he  was  not  hini- 
self  aware  that  an^  pensioner  who  had  been 
summoned  as  a  witness,  had  been  prevented 
from  attending ;   if,  however,  the  noble  dixkp 
had  proof  of  any  such  matter,  the  proceeding, 
let  it  originate  from  what  quarter  it  might, 
was  an  atrocious  act,   and  merited    severe 
censure. 

In  answer  to  the  learned  lord's  sayins  that 
the  House  was  besieged,  the  duke  of  Rich- 
mond declared  he  had  not  heard  of  any  sort 
of  siege,  but  a  siege  of  cheers  and  kisses  from 


1 


207] 


18  GE0ROE  IIL  The  Cote  of  Captain  Thomas  Baillie, 


[SOS 


old  men  and  old^omen,  pensioners  and  nurses 
in  the  Hospital,  entreating  to  have  their  old 
lieutenant-governor  agadn:  that  he  under- 
stood several  lords  were  almost  smothered  in 
the  way  from  their  carriages  to  the  staircase. 

Lord  Fortescue  declared,  for  one,  that  he 
never  had  been  so  kissed  in  .his  life ;  that  it 
was  rather  unfair  in  the  women  to  attack  him 
in  that  manner,  and  open  their  trenches  be- 
fore him  as  they  had  done,  because  he  was 
now  an  old  man,  and  could  not  open  his  bat- 
tery upon  them  in  return. 

The  Earl  of  Mansfield  supported  the  Lord 
Chancellor,  saying,  however,  that  he  passed 
through  a  double  rank  of  pensioners,  who  only 
huzza'd,  and  called  out  for  the  restoration  of 
their  old  lieutenant-governor.  The  Lord  Pre- 
.sident^poke  also  on  the  same  side. 

Lord  Camden  and  the  duke  of  Graflon  on 
the  side  of  the  duke  of  Richmond.  The 
former  asserted  that  the  pensioners  had  a 
right,  a  legal  and  a  constitutional  right  to  as- 
.  semli^e  before  the  door  of  parliament ;  that 
every  British  subject,  an^  eveir  man  in  ex- 
istence, let  his  station  m  life  be  what  it 
might,  had  the  same  right ;  and  he  hoped  to 
God,  the  day  would  never  come  when  that 
right  should  be  taken  away. 

His  lordship  added,  that  he  had  observed 
the  learned  lord  on  the  woolsack  had  only 
said,  that  the  pensioners  had  assembled  at 
the  doors  in  an  unseemly  manner,  by  which 
expression,  he  conceived,  the  learned  lord  did 
not  mean  to  dispute  their  right  of  assembling 
as  a  matter  contrary  to  law. 

The^  Duke  of  Kichmond,  in  reply  to  the 
mention  which  had  been  made  of  the  word 
^  *  riots'  by  the  noble  speakers  in  support  of  the 
Lord  Chancellor,  said  he  was  no  friend  to 
riots ;  that  he  thought  as  ill  of  them  and  their 
abettors,  as  any  man  could  possibly  do ;  that 
it  was  grossly  perverting  the  meanmg  of 
language,  to  apply  the  word  '  riot'  to  an  as- 
sembly of  the  poor  pensioners  at  \he  door  of 
the  House  the  preceding  Wednesday,  who  at- 
tended only  with  an  humble  petition ;  that  he 
remembered  what  really  deserved  the  name  of 
riots,  and  that  was,  the  assembling  of  the 
weavers  at  the  door  of  the  House  some  years 
ago :  he  remembered  the  proceedings  of  the 
committee  instituted  to  enquire  into  the  pro- 
per mode  of  pimishing  those  rioters,  and  the 
.sudden  manner  in  which  those  proceedings 
were  stopped ;  why  they  were  so  hastiw 
stopped,  the  lords,  who  undertook  that  busi- 
ness, best  knew. 

Lord  ShelbumCf  with  his  usual  perspicuity, 
supported  the  duke  of  Richmond.  He  began 
with  professing  his  extreme  candour  in  the 
whole  business  of  the  enquiry ;  that  he  was 
determined  to  keep  himself  oerfectly  impar- 
lial,  neither  to  give  any  juagment,  nor  to 
Bufter  any  opinion  to  be  dniwn  from  him  till 
he  had  heard  the  whole  of  the  evidence,  and 
was  fully  competent  to  decide  on  the  subject. 
He  was  free  to  confess,  that  all  he  knew  pre- 
vious to  the  commencement  of  the  present 

§ 


enquiry,  was  from  reading  Mr.  Baillte's  book, 
above  a  year  ago ;  that  it  was  then  sent  him, 
for  he  liad  not  soudit  after  it;  that  captain 
Baillie  had  since  called  repeatedly  at  his  door, 
but  he  never  had  seen  him ;  that  he  had  not 
an  idea,  that  the  noble  lord  at  the  head  of  the 
Admiralty  could  possibly  be  proved  to  have 
been  at  all  concerned  in  causing  bull  beei^ 
bad  veal,  bad  shoes  and  stockings,  and  sour 
beer,  to  be  served  out  to  the  poor  pensioners. 
That  the  noble  lord  certainly  must  be  al^ve 
an^  such  petty  larcenv  baseness,  however  he 
might  appear  neglectml  in  not  having  taken 
proper  care  of  the  navv.  or  in  discharge  of  the 
other  leading  duties  of  nis  offices,  as  president 
of  a  great  and  important  board,  where  he 
might  be  employed  with  much  honour  to 
himself,  and  advantag^e  to  the  public,  in  fitting 
out  his  fleets  and  giving' his  orders  there; 
that  he  would  own,  were  he  in  the  noble  lord's 
place,  he  had  much  rather  stand  accused  of 
the  greater  crimes  of  neglect  of  the  navy,  &c. 
than  have  it  imputed  to  him  that  he  had 
either  encouraged,  countenanced,  or  winked 
at  any  such  nitifiil  frauds  and  impositions  on 
old  men,  ola  women,  and  helpless  children,  as 
the  present  enquiry  tended  to  bring  to  li^ht, 
and  in  which  the  noble  lord  seemedso  highly 
interested  by  his  regular  attendance. 

At  length  the  &r\  of  Sandwich  rose,  and 
begged  tnat  the  noble  lord  might  be  per- 
mitted to  quit  the  chsdr,  and  that  the  House 
might  be  resumed.  He  said  the  present  de- 
bate looked  to  him  like  an  intention  either  to 
check  or  procrastinate  the  enquiry,  or  to  ground 
a  pretence  for  putting  a  stoo  to  it  altogether ; 
that  it  was  his  interest  ana  his  wish  that  it 
should  proceed. 

His  lordship  said  it  would  be  unjust  to  him 
if  any  sort  of^  impediment  was  thrown  in  the 
way  of  the  enquiry.  He  considered  the  coiv- 
duct  of  captain  Maplesden  as  highly  lauda- 
ble ;  he  had  no  doubt  it  would  appear  so,  and 
therefore  he  beeged  that  the  House  would  also 
do  the  captain  the  justice  to  suffer  it  to  be  en- 
quired into. 

At  length  thf  question  was  put,  and  carried 
to  examine  witnesses  op  a  breach  of  pri* 
vilege. 

dharlet  Smith,  a  boatswsdn,  was  called  in, 
being  one  of  those  persons  who  was  threatened, 
severely  mulcted,  and  reduced  to  a  private 
pensioner  by  captain  Maplesden,  for  not  dis- 
pers&B£  what  he  called  a  mob,  tliough  be 
shewed  him  an  order  for  his  attendance  on  the 
House,  when  this  witness  appeared  and  was 
sworn. — The  duke  of  Richmond  put  the  fol- 
lowing question  to  him : 
^  Didcaptain  Maplesden  threaten  you  with  a 
cane  or  stick  over  vour  head,  at  the  door  of 
this  House,  on  Wednesday  last? 

The  Lord  Chancellor  immediately  inter- 
rupted his  grace,  by  putting  the  question 
thus: 

When  captain  Maplesden  came  down  to 
the  door  of  the  House,  what  did  he  do  ? 

Upoa  this  Qbvious  alteration,  the  duke  of 


819]        re^aeeting  the  Royal  HoipUal  at  Greenxvich.'        A.  D.  1778. 


[210 


SidDBODd  instantly  ordered  the  witness  to 
witiMlnw,  and  as  soon  as  he  had  withdrawn, 
J»  ^race  chaiged  the  Ijord  Chancellor  with 
knng  assumed  a  ri^ht  to  alter  his  question,  a 
poogativeVhich  did  not  belong  to  nim. 

The  Duke  of  Grafton  very  warmly  attacked 
tiK  learned  lord  on  the  woolsack,  and  spoke 
to  his  want  of  &imess  and  candour  with  a  verv 
becoming  spirit  His  grace  said  the  breath 
liad  scarcely  escaped  the  lips  of  the  learned 
lord,  which  served  him  ib  express  the  ques- 
tioD,  before  it  was  perverted ;  observing  at  the 
ame  time,  that  he  would  never  suffer  such  a 
conduct  to  pass  uncensured,  whilst  he  had  the 
Ixuuur  of  a  seat  in  that  House ;  it  is  true,  he 
aid,  persona  may  be  called  up  there  for  the 
purposes  of  administration;  if,  however,  a 
day  ^uld  arrive  when  the  House  swarmed 
with  lawyers ;  if  the  benches  were  stuffed  full 
of  pleaders,  he  hoped  the  ancient  and  here- 
ditary nobles  of  the  land  would  have  spirit 
enough  to  resist  the  confident  incroachments 
of  that  profession,  and  would  neither  suffer 
sense  and  reason  to  be  cavilled  away  in  verbal 
fetinction,  nor  the  forms  and  orders  of  their 
proceedings  to  be  altered  at  the  will  of  any 
one  lord,  however  high  in  office,  however 
great  his  abilities,  however  respectable  his 
efaancter.       « 

The  Lord  Chancellor  lefl  the  woolsack,  and 
sud  he  was  exceedingly  astonished  to  hear 
himselT  accused  of  havins  assumed  any  thing 
which  did  not  properly  belong  to  his  situa- 
tioD ;  that  on  the  present  occasion  he  had  no 
dificul^  to  admi^  that  he  had  altered  the 
words  of  the  noble  duke's  question ;  in  justifi- 
cation, however,  of  his  conduct,  he  had  only 
to  say,  that  he  wished  to  expedite  the  pro- 
ceeding of  the  enquiry,  and  therefore  took 
Upon  him  to  alter  the  question,  as  it  ap[>eared 
to  him  to  be  a  leading  Question,  which  in  his 
gnce^s  form  could  not  oe  put,  without  8on\e 
alteration ;  but  as  it  was  rather  in  point  of 
form  than  in  substance,  he  should  have  first 
nmonstrated  with  the  noble  duke,  and  then 
have  asked  his  permission  to  have  changed  it. 
His  kyrdship  then,  instead  of  defending  the 
diputy  of  a  private  birth  on  the  equal  line  of 
tttuie,  descanted  on  the  labours  of  his  pro- 
fession as  a  compensation  for  the  honours  at- 
tached to  it,  ana  that  those  labours  which 
liereditaiy  lords  were  not  bom  to,  should 
Bttke  them  happy  in  their  own  situations, 
without  reflectine  on  those  of  others ;  that 
▼hen  he  looked  back  on  ^e  lineage  of  Uie 
JDoent  and  hereditary  nobility  of  the  king- 
dom, it  was,  however,  not  a  little  flattering  to 
^,  that  a  great  many  of  the  nresent  peers 
m  spnmg  from  men  who  had  filled  the  office 
he  had  tioMB  honour  to  hold,  and  some  fit>m 
P^ns  not  equally  intitled  to  the  honours 
▼hich  they  poKessed. 

The  Eari  of  Mansfield  justified  the  Lord 
Chancellor's  mode  of  altenng  the  question, 
"w  mid  it  was  a  common  custom  in  both 
liouses  of  Parliament,  for  the  ease  of  busi- 
^^'^l  that  he  bad  sat  many  years  in  both 
VOL  XXI. 


Houses,  and  had  oflen  been  a  witness  to  it, 
and  never  heard  it  objected  to  before. 

The  Duke  of  Richmond  ably  defended  the 
propriety  of  his  question,  and  having  shewn 
the  advantageous  ground  of  truth  over  law, 
declared,  that  the  learned  lord's  quoting  the 
custom  of  the  other  House  of  Parliament 
should  not  satisfy  hitn.  That  the  learned  lord 
on  the  woolsack  liad  no  right  to  alter  his 
question  without  consulting  him,  and  that  if 
he  did  not  allow  that  he  hau  assumed  an  im- 
proper power,  he  would  move  the  House  in 
form,  that  the  learned  lord  had  done  what  he 
was  not  warranted  to  do  by  the  forms  of  the 
House. 

The  Lord  Chancellor  again  \^h  the  wool- 
sack, and  repeated  what  he  had  said,  in  ac- 
knowledgment of  his  having  no  right  to  alter 
any  lord's  question ;  he  declared  he  had  done 
it  for  the  sake  of  accommodating  business : 
that  as  to  consulting  the  noble  duke,  he  had 
no  right  tp  consult  hun,  for  that  the  moment 
the  noble  duke  had  uttered  the  question,  it 
became  the  question  of  the  House,  and  the 
proper  mode  would  have  been  for  him  to  have 
appealed  to  the  House,  if  the  question  ought 
to  be  put.  He  thought  it,  however,  much 
more  manly  to  confess  an  error  than  to  persist 
in  it,  and  therefore  he  was  easy  in  declaring, 
that  he  had,  though  from  a  good  motive, 
acted  contrary  to  oraer. 

The  Duke  of  Richmond  admitted  what  the 
learned  lord  had  said  as  a  sufficient  explana- 
tion, and  jocosely  added,  *^  That  hereditary 
birth  did  not  always  exclude  persons  from 
laboijr;  for  though  he  was  bom  noble,  and 
was  not  in  office,  he  believed  the  leanted  lord 
would  not  say  he  had  never  any  labour  upon 
his  hands/' 

At  length  the  Committee  proceeded  to  exa* 
mine  witnesses,  and  Charles  Smith,  boat-, 
swain,  was  again  called  in  and  examined. 


Wednesday,  March  34, 1779. 
Charles  Smith,  a  Pensioner,  caUed  in  again. 

Inform  the  House  whether  you  were  here 
any  day  last  week. — ^Yes ;  last  Wednesday. 

Were  you  ordered  to  attend  the  House  ? — 
Yes. 

You  had  received  an  order  to  attend  the 
House? — ^Yes. 

As  a  witness  ? — Yes.     . 

Did  you  attend  it  ? — ^Yes. 

Inform  the  House  what  captain  Maplesden 
said  to  you,  what  passed  between  you  P — No- 
thing, tnat  I  know ;  but  we  attended  here ; 
we  were  giving  three  cheers  to  every  lord,  and 
wishing  maX  we  might  receive  our  lieutenant' 
governor  Baillie  again :  captain  Maplesden 
came  out  and  ordex^  silence,  and  ordered  me 
to  withdraw  the  men  off;  I  said,  if  he  could 
not  do  so,  to  so  many  hundred  men,  how 
could  I  do  it  ?  accordingly  he  ordered  me  to 
withdraw  myself:  I  said,  Ihad  as  much  riglit 
i  as  another  man  to.  stand  there,  and  I  staid 


Sll] 


18  GEORGE  III.         The  Case  o/Ca^ain  Thomas  BaUUe,  [SIS 


there  till  the  duke  of  Bolton  came  up ;  and 
when  the  duke  of  Bolton  came  up,  he  spoke, 
and  asked  what  was  the  reason ;  and  I  said, 
that  we  all  staid  there  for  the  sake  of  wishing 
that  we  might  have  our  ]ieutenant-»)vernor 
into  the  house  again^  that  was  all  uiat  was 
said,  and  the  mob  all  dispersed  directly;  if 
you  call  it  a  mob,  there  was  no  mob  in  the 
case,  no  auarrelling,  but  only  gave  three 
cheers  to  the  lords,  and  we  all  dispersed  di- 
rectly. 

Was  that  upon  the  duke  of  Bolton's  desire  ? 
—Yes ;  he  desired  us  to  withdraw. 

What  did  captain  Mapiesden  do  to  you  ? — 
He  ordered  me  to  come  and  draw  the  people 
off;  I  told  him  if  he  could  not  do  it,  how 
could  1 ;  for  I  was  but  one  man  ?  he  said, 
then  get  away  yourself;  I  said,  I  had  a  right 
to  stav  there,  as  well  as  another  person. 

Did  captain  Mapiesden  do  anv  thing  to 
you  ? — ^He  came  witn  his  stick,  with  a  flourish 
over  mc,  and  went  to  run  it  in  my  face.  I 
said,  it  is  a  thin^  beyond  my  ability ;  if  you 
cannot  do  it,  which  way  can  I  ?  he  up  with  his 
stick,  and  was  going  to  shove  it  into  my  face, 
because  I  did  not  do  it.  As  soon  as  the  duke 
of  Bolton  spoke  to  me,  af^r  we  had  given 
eyery  body  cheers,  we  withdrew  directly  j  not 
by  my  order,  but  by  the  good  consent  of  every 
body ;  after  they  gave  the  lords  three  cheers 
When  they  came  in,  then  we  withdrew. 

How  long  were  the  three  cheers  after  caj^- 
tain  IVIaple^cn  had  been  talking  with  you? — 
Kot  more  than  a  quarter  of  an  hour. 

Whether  you  said  any  thing  to  captain  Mar- 
plesden,  relative  to  your  beii^  summoned  to 
attend  this  Hquse? — ^Yes.  and  pulled  out  my 
pocket-boo]^  to  shew  nim  my  summons; 
moreover,  he  did  not  take  it  from  me,  but  I 
put  it  into  my  book  agaui,  ailer  ^e  people 
had  all  withdrawn. 

What  did  captain  Mapiesden  say,  when  you 
shewed  him  the  summons  ? — ^Nothing  at  all 
then,  for  he  did  not  take  it  out  of  my  hand, 
and  so  I  nut  it  in  my  book  again ;'  afler  we 
had  done  that,  we  spoke  to  the  auke  of  Bolton 
agam,  and  then  we  all  withdrew. 

Are  you  very  sure  that  you  mentioned  to 
captain  Mapiesden,  that  the  paper  that  you 
shewed  him  was  a  summons,  or  a  subpana, 
from  the  House  of  Lords  ? — Yes. 

You  are  sure  of  that?— Yes,  and  pulled  it 
out,  and  was  gomg  to  shew  it  to  him,  but  he 
did  not  take  it  out  of  my  hands,  but  I  opened 
it  to  him. 

When  did  you  return  to  Greenwich  Hos- 
pital ?— That  same  night 

What  happened  to  you,  after  you  returned 
to  Greenwich  Hospital  ?— The  very  next  day 
he  ordered  all  of  us,  that  he  picked  out  as  he 
thought  proper,  to  appear  at  his  own  house, 
and  he  kept  us  all  in  doors  and  examined  us : 
after  examining  us,  bringing  us  to  a  coimcil 
that  we  have  in  our  house  once  a  week ;  but 
instead  of  that,  he  made  a  private  council  of 
it ;.  he  broke  me,  that  is,  taking  U .  6d.  out  of 
8*.  6d,  wliich  la  my  sala^  per  woek. 


You  were  summoned  to  a  council  ?-'«^Not 
siunmoned  to  a  council ;  he  ordered  Ms  there 
instead  of  summoning  us  properly  to  the  coun- 
cil-room, as  it  should  be;  he  made  a  priTate 
council  of  it  to  himself,  and  so  calledf  us  all, 
one  by  one ;  and  as  for  my  part,  he  examided ' 
me  so ;  at  last  he  damned  me,  and  bid  me  be 
get  out  of  his  house :  I  made  answer,  I  did^ 
not  want  to  come  there,  if  he  had  not  sent 
for  me.  On  the  Mqnday  following  he  had  a 
council  on  it ;  he  brought  me  to  the  council 
and  broke  me,  and  he  broke  another;  he 
mulcted  another  30<.  and  another  10s.  and 
another  5$.  and  another  4«. ;  and  then  he  ex- 
pelled a  nurse  of  the  house,  for  three  montlu  ; 
and  the  man  that  was  mate  of  the  Painted 
Hall,  he  happened  to  kick  a  dog  in  the 
Painted  Hall,  and  he  was  turned  out  of  tft]# 
house. 

What  do  you  mean  by  saying  captain  Ma- 
piesden broke  you? — I  am  a  boatswain  of  the 
Hospital,  and  I  wear  this  lace;  now  he  has 
broke  me,  and  taken  this  lace  away;  and  out 
of  my  pay,  which  is  Ss.  6d,  a  week,  he  hae 
taken  I5.  6d.  away,  and  I  have  but  Is.  re- 


mainmg. 


Was  that  done  by  the  order  of  the  council  ? 
— By  his  own  order ;  it  was  a  private  council. 

On  what  day  was  that  council? — ^It  was  a 
private  council,  which  should  have  been  on 
the  Friday,  he  brought  it  on  the  Monday. 

Was  any  other  j^unishment  inflicted  upon 
you? — I  was  to  go  mto  the  hall  and  stand  in 
the  pillory,  and  ask  his  pardon. 

Whether  you  did  go  into  the  hall  and  stand 
in  the  pilloiy? — ^Ycs. 

What  was  the  crime  you  was  chareed  with  f 
— For  disobeying  his  orders  at  the  House  of 
Lords,  in  not  taJdng  the  mob  off  as  he  or- 
dered, which  was  a  thing  impossible  for  ma 
to  do. 

Whether  you  saw  captain  Mapiesden,  on 
the  Wednesday,  endeavour  to  drive  away  any 
other  person  nrom  the  door  of  the  House  ? — 
No,  he  only  pitched  upon  me ;  and  as  he  did 
it,  another  man,  a  man  that  attends  upon  our 
omce,  took  our  names  down,  and  another  fel- 
low that  was  there,  was  his  witness ;  so  there 
they  took  down  what  few  people  th^  pitched 
upon,  and  tliose  he  owed  an  animosity  to ;  ha 
took  our  names  down. 

Whether  you  did  go  away,  on  the  Wednes- 
day, in  conseauence  of  captain  Maplesden's 
order  ? — Not  airectly,  not  before  we  were  dona 
with  here,  at  the  House  of  Lords,  then  wa 
went  home. 

Was  it  your  charge  to  bring  the  witnesses 
fi*om  Greenwich,  to  the  House  of  Lords  ?•«- 
No,  only  1  came  up  in  the  coach  along  with 
them ;  but  these  people  were  all  here  long  be>- 
fore  we  came. 

Whether  you  cheered  aa^r  paitkulsr  lordhL- 
or  whether  you  could  disttn^sh  one  lord 
from  another? — ^Not'at  all ;  we  cheered  evoy 
one  as  they  came  by. 

Who  set  you  to  cheer  the  lords  ? — ^No  soulp 
it  was  by  nobody's  order,  but  only  by  the 


ilSl        re$peeting  tie  Royal  Hospital- at  Greetttmck.         A.  D.  I77S. 


[214 


■m's  own  good  will.  We  witnesses  did  not 
JoNW  that  &e  pensioners  were  all  here. 

Who  put  jou  upon  cheering  the  lords  at  all? 
— Ood  Almighty  knows,  it  was  their  own 
doiu. 

Du  any  body  v^  you  upon  cheering  the 
knls?-No. 

Was  it  of  your  own  thought? — Our  own 
gDod  wills. 

Were  you  the  oldest  boatswain  attending,  or 
lideiedio  attend  the  House? — No. 

Whether  any  of  the  pensioners  that  were 
SDomioned  to  attend  the  House  of  Lords,  to 
gne  evidence,  were  sent  away  bef<»-e  they  had 

S'  m  their  evidence  ? — ^We  did  not  go  away 
ore  the  House  of  Lords  broke  up. 

How  many  pensioners  were  there  ? — God 
Ueasmysoul!  I  cannot  tell. 

As  near  ay  you  can  guess? — ^I  suppose  3  or 
100. 

Were  they  all  witnesses  ?— No,  no ;  not  we 
witnesBes;  I  don't  speak  of  them ;  I  sprak  of 
the  people  thai  were  cheering. 

How  many  of  them  were  there  that  were 
witneaaes  ? — ^I  believe  about  a  dosen. 

Whether  you  met  with  any  obstruction  in 
coming  down  to  the  House  of  Lords  to  give 
your  evidence? — ^No;  we  came  down  very 
ivdl,  and  went  home  aeain  verv  SMBife;  nobody 
afionted  us,  only  Mr.  Maplesden. 

Did  captain  Maplesden  obstruct  your  com- 
ingU) ^ve  evidence ? — ^No. 

Did  captain  Maplesden  order  all  of  you,  or 
the  witnesses  only,  to  so  ? — All. 

Did  captain  Maplesden  ever  order  you  liot  to 
come  agam  ? — ^No,  he  never  was  against  that.* 

When  you  retired,  was  it  at  the  order  of 
captam  Maplesden  or  at  the  desire  of  the  duke 
of  Bolton? — ^I  must  tell  you  the  truth;  by  the 
duke  of  Bolton's  order. 

How  long  had  captain  Maplesden  ordered 
jou  to  retire  before  tne  duke  ot  Bolton  ordered 
yoQ  ?— About  a  quarter  of  an  hour. 

Whether  captain  Maplesden  ordered  you  to 
retire  after  you  had  shewn  him  the  summons 
from  the  House  of  Lords,  or  before  ? — Before ; 
1  offered  to  shew  him  tlTc  summons  then,  but 
be  would  not  take  it  out  of  my  hand 

Did  captain  Maplesden  order  you  to  retire 
tfter  vou  had  shewn  him  the  summons  ? — 
Yes ;  but  we  did  not  disperse  before  we  gave 
the  last  three  cheers;  nut  before  the  duke  of 
Bolton  spoke  to  us. 

Whether  captain  Maplesden  ordered  you  to 
retire  afier  you  had  shewn  him  the  summons 
feom  the  House  of  Lords  ? — Directly ;  he  did 
not  take  it  from  me,  but  he  ordered  me  to  re- 
tire then,  and  I  sua  I  had  as  much  right  to 
stay  there  as  any  one  there. 

When  was  tliat  ?  Before  he  ordered  you  to 
go,  or  ailerwards? — Afterwards. 

Was  it  before  or  ailer  you  shewed  him  the 

paper  ? — ^It  was  at  the  time  I  shewed  him  the 

paper;  when  I  put  it  up  into  my  pocket-book, 

Ml  told  him  that. 
I)id  he,  after  you  had  shewn  him  the  paper, 

Wtt  you  to  ga  home  ?— No,  ke  did  not. 


Do  you  not  ufiderstand  that  each  pensioner 
of  CKreenwich  Hospital  has,  by  leave,  a  right 
to  be  absent  124  hours  ? — ^Yes. 

Were  all  these  that  came  here  undec  that 
description,  persons  that  had  a  right  to  the  S4 
hour's  absence? — They  were  all  at  home :  I 
question  whether  there  were  five  of  them  laid 
out. 

Have  any  officers  of  the  Hospital,  if  men 
are  absent  during  those  24  hours,  any  more 
right  than  any  other  persons,  without  they 
find  those  men  are  actmg  disorderly,  to  order 
them  to  disperse? — ^No.  They  ask  leave  bo* 
fore  thev  come,  out,  and  they  may  stay. 

Whether  captain  Maplesden  ceased  giving 
you  any  orders  as  soon  as  you  shewed  him  th6 
order  of  the  House  of  Lords  for  your  attend- 
ance ?— He  spoke  no  more  to  me;  he  never 
gave  me  any  more  orders  aAerwards. 

He  did  not  order  you  to  retire  ? — ^Not  after ; 
he  had  no  more  to  say  afterwards  to  me. 

How  long  have  you  been  in  Greenwich  Hos» 
pital  ?-^£leven  years. 

How  long  have  you  been  a  boatswain  there  ? 
— ^Ten  years  and  ten  months. 

How  long  had  vou  been  at  sea  before  you 
went  to  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — Forty  years. 

In  what  service  have  you  been? — Thirty 
years  in  the  king's  service. 

Were  you  ever  in  the  East  Indies  ? — ^Yes. 

And  in  the  West  Indies? — Yes;  ax^  at 
Newfoundland,  and  other  places. 

Did  you  use  any  other  words  to  captaia 
Maplesden,  except  that  you  had  as  gooa  a  right 
to  be  there  as  the  other  people  ? — No  other 
words,  as  I  know ;  not  any  words  of  impu- 
dence. 

Were  you  ordered  back  to  Greenwich? — 
No. 

Only  to  keep  farther  joff?— Yes ;  and  I  came 
into  the  lobby  ^erwards. 

[Charles  Smith  withdrew.] 

Mary  RoKy  a  nurse,  a  seaman's  widow. 

What  passed  between  you  and  captain  Ma- 
plesden, on  Wednesday  last,  at  the  door  of 
the  House  ? — ^^^hen  captain  Maplesden  came 
out,  he  shook  his  cane  over  his  nead,  and  bid 
us  disperse,  when  we  were  seeing  the  honour- 
able tne  House  of  Lords  come  in. 

Over  whose  bead  did  he  shake  his  stick? — 
Over  his  own  h^ ;  and  bid  us  disperse  by 
order  of  the  House  of  Peers. 

Wliat  did  captain  Maplesden  sa^? — He 
swore  a  very  ^eat  oath,  and  bid  us  disperse; 
and,  damn  it,  if  we  did  not,  he  would  mark  us 
all,  and  punish  us  very  severely  when  we  came 
home. 

W^ere  you  punished  ?— Yes ;  I  was  brought 
before  the  honourable  council,  and  mulct  half 
my  wages  for  seeing  the  honourable  peers 
come ;  and  was  very  oasely  ill  used  by  what 
he  was  pleased  to  say  to  me  besides. 

What  did  he  say  ?— -He  made  use  of  a  great 
many  words,  called  me  hussy  and  jade,  and 
used  a  great  many  words  not  proper  to  makt 
use  of  before  your  lordship^. 


215] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaiUie, 


Were  you  summoned  to  attend  the  House 
on  Wednesday? — I  was;  and  I  told  him  so; 
and  he  damned  me,  and  asked  me,  how  I 
dared  to  come  without  an  order  from  the 
house. 

What  house  do  you  understand  he  meant 
by  saying  an  order  from  the  house? — That  I 
did  not  ask  leave  of  Greenwich-house;  I 
thought  the  summons  was  sufficient. 

Did  he  order  ybu  to  go  away  after  you  said 
you  was  summoned  by  order  of  the  House  of 
Lords  ?— Yes,  he  did ;  and  told  me  he  would 
mark  me  for  so  doings  and  take  notice  of  me 
when  I  came  home. 

'  How  much  were  you  fined  ? — ^Twenty  shiU 
]ine:s. 

Where  did  captain  Maplesden  bid  you  go? — 
He  bid  us  disperse  and  go  home ;  these  were 
the  words  he  said.^ 

Did  you  shew  captain  Maplesden  the  sum- 
mons of  this  House?-— Captain  Maplesden 
knew  very  well  that  I  was  summoned;  he 
asked  me,  and  I  told  him^  Yes ;  he  did  not 
ask  me  to  shew  it  to  him. 

Did  you  offer  to  shew  it  to  him  ? — No ;  he 
did  not  ask  it,  and  I  did  not  shew  it. 

Was  jt  said  to  you  in  particular,  or  to  you 
all  together  ? — He  .bid  us  all  disperse. 

Then  what  he  said  was  no  more  spoke  to 
you  than  to  the  rest? — No;  he  bid  us  all  dis- 
perse ;  and  he  told  me,  when  he  went  by  me, 
that  he  would  mark  me  when  I  got  faiome ; 
and  so  he  did.  [Mary  Rose  withdrew.] 

Dorctkjf  Perrtfy  a  seaman's  widow,  called  in. 

Were  you  at  the  House  of  Lords  on  Wed- 
nesday last  ? — ^Yes. 

Dia  you  see  captain  Maplesden  there  ? — 
Yes. 

What  passed  between  captain  Maplesden 
and  you? — ^When  he  came  out  of  the  coffee- 
house, there  were  a  parcel  of  people  standing 
by  the  side  of  the  conee-hous«^  pretty  near  the 
door  of  the  House ;  when  he  came  out,  he 
came  up  to  boatswain  Smith ;  he  passed  me ; 
boatswain  Smith  stood  beside  me :  he  turned 
to  him ;  he  had  a  cane  in  his  hana ;  he  ran  it 
up  close  in  boatswain  Smith's  face,  and  damn- 
ed him,  and  asked  him  how  he  came  there : 
boatswain  Smith  said  his  feet  brought  him 
there :  captain  Maplesden  damned  his  feet, 
and  desired  him  to  take  all  the  men  and  wo- 
men home,  and  take  every  body  awav.  He 
said  he  did  not  bring  them  there,  and  it  was 
not  his  business.  Captain  Maplesden  said  if 
he  did  not,  he  would  punish  him.  Boatswain 
Smith  said  he  could  not  help  it,  whether  he 
did  punish  him  or  not,  for  he  could  not  take 
the  people  away.  Captain  Maplesden  said,  if 
he  did  not,  he  would  mark  him. 

Did  any  thing  else  pass  in  your  hearing  ? — 
Not  concerning  captain  Maplesden ;  we  came 
away /soon  afler. 

Did  captain  Maplesden  say  any  thing  to 
you  in  particular? — ^No.  He  spoke  to  boat^ 
swain  Smith  to  call  us  all  away.  Us  that  had 
summonses  said  wc  had  summonses^  and  had 


therefore  a  right  till  we  were  taken  into  this 
House.  Your  lordships  had  not  all  come  in 
then. 

Did  you  tell  captain  Maplesden  that  ^ou 
were  summoned  ? — ^I  told  it  in  his  hearings 
close  by  him ;  when  boatswain  Smith  said  hm 
had  a  summons,  he  damned  him,  and  us  all, 
and  told  him  to  take  us  away,  and  the  sum- 
monses too. 

Did  captun  Maplesden  order  you  to  go 
away,  or  to  go  to  any  pardcular  place  ? — He 
did  not  order  us  to  go  to  any  place  here  in 
London ;  he  ordered  us  to  go  to  Greenwich. 

What  time  of  day  was  it  that  he  said  this  ? 
— About  two  o'clock,  to  the  best  of  my  know- 
ledge. 

Did  you  stay  till  this  House  was  up  ? — Yes  ; 
we  staid  till  the  House  broke  up  that  night ; 
it  was  about  eight  o'clock. 

Did  all  the  witnesses  stay  till  ,the  House 
was  broke  up  ? — ^Yes. 

Did  the  rest  of  the  people  disperse  ? — ^Yes  ; 
every  body  but  them  that  were  summoned, 
went  away  directly. 

[Dorothy'Perry,tiursc,  withdrew.} 

After  the  examination  of  these  three  wit- 
nesses, who  fiilly  proved  the  menaces  and 
mulcts  of  captain  Maplesden  towards  them, 
it  was  moved  by  the  duke  of  Richmond,  that 
the  captain  might  be  summoned  to  answer 
for  this  breach  of  privilege  to  the  House :  but 
it  was  contested  warmly  by  the  other  side  on 
the  ground  of  impropriety. 

The  Lord  Chancellor,  lords  Mansfield  and 
Bathurst  (for  all  their  arguments  ran  in  the 
same  stream)  stated,  that  as  there  was  no  de- 

See  of  criminalitv  proved  agdnst  captain 
aplesden,  it  would  be  contrary  to  their  lord'^ 
ships'  justice  to  order  his  attendance. 

The  duke  of  Richmond,  lord  Camden,  and 
many  other  lords  combatted  this  doctrine 
with  great  calmness,  clearness,  and  precision ; 
lord  Camden,  in  particular,  asked  what 
greater  degree  of  instdf  could  be  offered  their 
lordships,  than  by  attempting  to  drive  away 
witnesses  from  tneir  attendance  ?  As  to  the 
actual  forcing  them  away  he  did  not,  proba- 
bly because  it  was  not  m  his  power,  but  he 
held  out  terror  todhem,  to  do  so ;  nc  com- 
manded them  away,  threatening,  with  oaths 
and  imprecations,  to  mark  them;  and  to 
confirm  all  this,  the  veiy  next  morning,  with- 
out waiting  for  the  usual  council  day,  he  fined, 
and  otherwise  punished  them  severely  as  de- 
linquents. 

Notwithstanding  this,  a  majority  of  55  to 
SO  thought  there  was  no  manner  of  occa- 
sion for  captain  Maplesden's  attendance. 

Adjourned  till  to-morrow. 


I 


Thundi^f  March  S5,  IfTQ. 

Captain  Baillie  called  in. 

Whether  there  have  been  an^  abuses  in 
the  linen  in  Greenwich  Hospital  ?-~There 
have  been  many  complaints  mi|ue  to  fne.bjr 


917]        respecting  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Greenmch.         A.  D.  1778. 

tbe  pensioners  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  that 

the  Quality  of  the  linen  has  been  very  diffe- 

lent  from  what  it  used  to  be,  that  it  has  de- 
creased in  size  as  well  as  in  goodness. 

Iiiibrm  the  House  whether  you  made  any 
esperimenti^  to  know  whether  it  was  de- 
creased in  size  ? — ^In  consequence  of  that  in- 
formation, I  sent  the  proper  people,  as  I 
thought  they  were,  the  boatswains  and  nurses, 
isto  the  difierent  quarters  of  the  Hospital,  to 
iDeasurethe  linen  throughout  the  Hospital,  in 
particular  in  the  infirmary,  where  I  thought 
it  was  of  the  most  consequence ;  the  persons 
who  measured  the  linen  there,  brought  re- 
ports to  me  that  all  the  men's  sheets,  upon 
an  avera^  were  deficient  in  half  a  yard  in 
eveiy  pair,  one  with  the  other ;  some  wanted 
a  vara,  some  three  quarters  of  a  yard,  and  the 
average  about  half  a  vard  upon  the  whole, 
leneially  throughout  tne  Hospital. 

Is  there  any  body  here  that  can  speak  to 
that^There  are  the  people  here  who  mea- 
sured it;  they  likewise  measured  the  shirts; 
Thomas  Field  measured  them. 

As  to  the  eoodness  of  the  linen  that  has 
been  delhrered  out  at  this  time,  in  comparison 
with  what  has  been  dehvered  out  before,  have 
3rou  any  samples  of  that  ? — There  are  patterns 
of  what  they  had  some  few  years  ago,  and 
what  they  have  now. 

Have  you  some  with  you  now  ? — ^I  brought 
them  with  me  for  that  purpose,  that  there 
misbt  be  no  mistake  as  to  the  evidence. 

fie  so  good  as  to  produce  them. — [Captain 
BaiiUe  iiroduces  several  samples.  J  This  is  the 
bed-ticking  the  men  were  allowed  formerly, 
such  as  any  nobleman  in  this  House  might 
lie  upon  in  comfort,  lliis  is  what  they  have 
now;  it  is  an  inferior  quality,  not  worth  a 
quarter  put  of  the  money  of  the  other ;  it  has 
induration  in  it,  it  is  not  fit  for  the  pen- 
siouers  of  Greenwich  Hospital.  This  is  what 
they  used  to  have  formerly  ibr  their  shirting ; 
it  is  of  a  verv  good  quality ;  there  is  a  blue 
ttripe  in  it,  that  there  might  be  no  reduction 
whatever  in  the  cutting  it ;  the  mode  now  is 
peatly  altered,  there  is  no  such  precaution 
tiJceD^  the  linen  is  not  worth  half  tne  money, 


nor  will  it  last  half  so  long ;  it  is  obliged  to 
be  patched  and  mended  before  a  year  is  out ; 
ttuke  manner  the  nurses  of  the  Hospital,  a 
Quniber  of  whom  are  very  respectable  charac- 
ters, there  ire  a  matter  of  24  of  them  that  are 
sca^lficers'  widows,  reduced  to  that  sad  ne« 
<^ty  of  benig  common  nurses;  the  gowns 
^y  give  them  are  not  so  good  as  th^  used 
to  be,  they  are  worse  than  work-house  clothes, 
vorse  tha^  pauper's  linen ;  these  are  the  pat- 
terns, [producing  them]  their  pillow-cases  are 
niade  now  of  dowlas,  of  a  bad  quality,  for- 
^^y  it  was  a  very  good  cloth,  such  as  any 
body  nueht  lay  their  heads  upon  in  comfort ; 
theh"  beos  were  formerly  filled  with  very  good 
*ool,  and-  flock  of  the  finest  sort,  now  it  is  ra- 
^htt  a  cutting  of  mops,or  something  of  that  sort. 
7*  Ho  is  tl»e  person  that  measured  the  linen? 
r-i  nomas  Field. 


[218 

Mr.  Maule,  the  Clerk  of  the  Cheque,  called  in. 

Have  you  made  out  that  account  ^ou  were 
ordered  to  do  ? — I  have.  [It  is  dehvered  to 
the  House.] 

Thomas  Field,  one  of  the  Boatswains,  called  in . 

Did  you  measure  any  linen  belonging  to 
the  Hospital  at  any  time  ? — ^Yes. 

How  much  did  ypu  measure? — ^I  measured 
388  pair  of  sheets  m  the  infirmary. 

How  much  did  they  measure  ?-^They  mea^ 
sured  half  a  yard  short  and  better  in  each  pair 
of  sheets. 

Half  a  yard  short  of  what? — Of  the  cloth ; 
I  had  been  told  bv  the  lieutenant  governor, 
that  they  were  to  be  two  yaida  and  one  half 
long,  five  yards  in  each  sheet ;  there  are  two 
breadths  in  a  sheet. 

Upon  an  average,  how  much  did'  they  mea- 
sure short  of  that  ? — Better  than  hdf  a  yard. 

In  each  pair,  or  in  each  sheet? — ^In  each 
pair. 

Upon  what  niimber  pf  sheets  did  you  say 
you  made  this  measurement  ? — 388  pair. 

And  upon  each  of  the  388  pair,  it  I  under- 
stood you  right,  there  was  a  deficiency  of  half 
a  yard  ? — ^There  waA  in  each  pair. 

Did  you  measure  any  other  linen  ? — Yes, 
all  the  boatswains  in  the  House  had  orders 
to  measure  the  linen  that  belonged  to  the 
pensioners  that  were  in  their  division. 

Did  you  measure  them  ? — ^I  measured  the 
linen  that  was  in  the  division  that  I  belonged 
to ;  they  run  95  yards  short  upon  shirts  and 
sheets,  160  sheets,  and  160  shirts. 

What  you  mentioned  before  related  to  the 
mfirmary  ? — ^Yes. 

What  you  speak  of  now  relates  to  your 
ward  ? — ^i  es. 

And  in  your  ward  how  much  did  you  find 
short  in  the  sheets  and  shirts  ? — 95  yards. 

What  do  you  imagine  was  the  allowance 
for  shirts? — ^I  was  told  three  yards  and  an 
half. 

Did  you  measure  the  linen  in  any  other 
wards  ? — No,  none  at  all  but  the  division  I 
belonged  to,  and  the  infirmary  sheets. 

[Thomas  Field  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Godby,  the  Steward,  called  in. 

Is  there  any  allowance  made  in  the  Hospi- 
tal for  the  measure  of  sheets  and  shirts  ? — 
Three  vards  and  an  half  tor  a  shirt,  and  five 
yards  for  a  sheet.  ' 

Were  the  sheets  less  than  they  usedi  to  be 
the  last  time  they  were  cut,  at  the  time  that 
they  mention? — ^I  believe  they  are  full  as. 
long  now  as  ever  they  were,  and  are  made  in 
the  same  manner  in  ever^  respect. 

But  were  they  not  half  a  yaid  less  in  each 
pair  of  sheets  than  before  ? — No. 

Are  you  positive  and  clear  in  that? — ^Yes ; 
it  cannot  be ;  if  any  sheets  are  shorter  than 
the  standard,  it  is  because  the  pieces  of  sheets 
ing  run  a  certain  length,  and  we  cut  them  so 
as  not  to  leave  any  remnants;  that  is  thQ 


ii9] 


IS  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  TJujuas  Bailiie,  [SSO 


estabUsiunent  in  the  Ho^ital,  and  has  beeo 
always  the  practice;  at  least  for  40  years 
back  to  Mr.  Bell's  time ;  I  have  pursued  the 
^  same  method,  and  employed  the  same  people, 
and  I  have  no  reason  to  believe  that  tney 
have  made  away  with  any  of  it. 

You  say  there  is  the  same  quantity  in  the 
sheets  now  as  fm-merly  f — The  same. 

How  could  it  happen,  that  the  sheets,  when 
measured,  appeared  to  be  half  a  yard  less  ? — I 
fancy  it  will  not  appear  so^  when  your  lord- 
ships oaii  upon  the  derk  or  the  cheque's  clerk, 
who  is  a  cheque  upon  my  office ;  he  receives 
these  sheets,  and  is  a  cheque  upon  them. 

You  are  positive  they  are  the  same  size  as 
usud  ? — ^Yes,  the  same  size  as  usual. 

Whether  you  speak  absolutely  from  having 
measured  the  present  sheets?—)  have  seen  a 
greatjnany  oftliem  meakored,  aad  I  believe 
all  the  linen  is  accounted  for  very  clearly;  it 
appears  so  to  me. 

I  wish  to  have  a  direct  answer ;  have  you 
measured  all  these  sheets  yourself? — ^Not  all ; 
it  is  impossible  I  can  measia^e  8  or  9,000  pair 
of  sheets ;  that  cannot  be  supposed,  I  should 
imagine ;  I  have  seen  a  great  many  of  them 
measured. 

Upon  what  convicti(m  then  do  you  deliver 
this  evidence, to  the  House?  You  positively 
ysert  they  are  the  same  lene[th  the  old  ones 
used  to  be,  without  any  kind  of  diminution  ? — 
I  have  seen  some  of  them  measured,  and  have 
measured  several;  I  have  taken  here  and 
there  one  of  a  quantity  when  they  are  made, 
and  haye  measured  them  the  same  as  they 
used  to  be  in  every  respect. 

What  quantity  may  you  have  measured 
yourself? — ^When  there  have  been  two  or 
three  hundred  pair  at  a  time  delivered  into  my 
/office,  I  have  measured  three  or  four,  and 
have  been  satisfied.  If  I  have  found  a  de- 
ficiency in  any  respect,  I  have  looked  farther 
^to  it. 

What  is  the  measure? — Of  the  sheets  five 
yards. 

Did  those  you  measured  measure  five 
yards? — They  measured  something  under, 
because  we  cut  them  so  as  not  to  make  any 
lemnants. 

I  ask  you  the  positive  measure  of  what  you 
measured  yourself? — Sometimes  a  nail  of  a 
yard  short,  sometimes  two  nails  short.  - 

But  none  of  them  were  poatively  five  yards 
long  ?—  Some  of  them  were. 

Of  what  lengUi  were  the  shtets  that  you 
did  measure  yourself? — Sometimes  a  full 
length,  sometimes  wanting  a  nail  of  a  yard,  at 
iother  times  two  nails  perhaps;  but  then, 
when  I  came  to  enquire  into  the  matter,  I 
found  that  it  should  be  so ;  a  piece  of  sheet- 
in|g,if  it  runs  40  yards,  would  make  five  pair 
ofsheets,  but  they  run  38  and  an  half,  and  S9, 
and  39  and  an  half;  they  are  generally  about 
,  that  length,  and  then  we  make  just  the  same 
sheets  as  if  they  run  40 ;  it  is  an  advantage  to 
the  Hospital,  and  is  the  method  that  was  al- 
ways adopted  by  the  former  stewards. 


Is  it  not  somebody's  province  to  measure 
ail  the  sheets  ? — ^The  people  in  my  office  mea- 
sure a  number  of  them,  but  not  all  of  them,  I 
dare  say. 

Whether  or  not  the  measuration  you  have 
taken  of  these  sheets  was  befi^re  or  after  the 
complaint  was  made  by  captain  Baillie?«- 1 
have  measured  them  since  the  complaint,  and 
I  hove  measured  them  before. 
"  Is  it  your  office  properly  to  measure  this 
linen  ? — It  is  with  the  clerk  of  the  ch^ue, 
never  without  him. 

Is  it  your  practice,  as  well  as  your  office, 
constantly  to  measure  them?— Yes,  we  aU 
ways  measure  some :  I  hardly  ever  knew  it 
otherwise,  and  I  constancy  attend. 

What  is  the  reason,  if  it  is  your  duty,  that 
you  don't  measive  them  all  ? — ^It  is  impossible 
for  me  to  measure  them  all,  the  nature  of  tiie 
.  business  would  not  admit  of  it. 

Wh^  is  it  impossible  ?— On  account  of  the 
quantity  of  it;  becauseif  we  were  todo  bu^ 
smess  m>  that  way,  there  would  be  a  need  of 
ten  stewards  and  ten  clerks. 

Would  there  not  be  time  enough  for  you 
and  the  clerk  of  the  cheque  to  take  your 
leisure,  if  you  have  not  sufficient  time  imme* 
diately,  to  measure  the  whole  number  ? — I  ap^ 
prehend  it  is  a  thins  that  could  not  b^  ex* 
pected  of  any  steward. 

Is  the  whole  number  measured  by  any 
body  ? — I  don't  believe  they  are,  indeed  I  ant 
certain  they  are  not. 

Have  you  always  took  the  measure  upon 
the  faith  of  the  contractor  to  be  according  to 
the  contract? — No,  I  measure  here  and  men 
a  piece;  if  I  find  a  deficiency  or  a  yard  or 
half  a  yard,  I  go  farther,  and  measure  more, 
and  if  there  is  a  yard  deficient  in  any  one  of 
those  pieces,  I  deduct  a  yard  from  every  one 
<^  those  pieces  I  receive. 

If  from  the  number  of  sheets  you  have 
spoken  to,  you  hod  found  a  deficiency  of  half 
a 'yard  upon  every  pair  of  ^sheets,  should  not 
you  have  thought  it  worth  your  while  to  com- 
plain to  some  body ,  of  the  Hosnital,  in  order 
to  rectify  that  abuse  ?— Certainly  not,  these 
sheets  have  been  delivered  out  of  my  care  a 
twelvemonth. 

If  in  the  measurement  of  the  sheets  you 
yourself  had  discovered  a  deficitocy,  whether 
you  would  not  have  thou^t  the  Hospital 
greatly  defrauded  by  such  a  deficiency  r — It 
could  not  happen  in  my  ofilice. 

But  I  ask  you  if  you  had  discovered  a  de» 
ficiency  ? — ^If  so,  certunly . 

If  again,  id  the  measurement  of  388  {>air  of 
sheets,  you  had  discovered,  as  the  witoess 
discovered,  a  defidenc^r  of  196  yards,  which 
he  has  sworn  to  upon  us  measurement,  would 
not  you  have  thought  that  a  fraud  too  ?— Not 
if  it  was  accounted  for  some  other  way. 

I  ask  you,  if  upon  your  ^measurement  yw 
had  found  the  deficiency  ? — No  doubt  of  it ; 
if  there  was  a  deficiency  of  190  odd  yards^ 
there  must  be  a  firaud  somewhere. 

Do  you  know  of  any  complaints  bttog 


M]     .  reipecttngike  Uoyal  Ho^piUiat  Oreimdch*        A.  D.  1778. 


i%s» 


mfe  to  the  council  of  a  deficiency  in  the 
boen  ?— None. 

You  said  the  sheets  were  delivered  out  a 
vur  b^«e  they  were  measured;  will  not 
vashing  contract  linen  ?— We  must  make  aU 
knrances  certainly  for  cutting  out,  we  must 
mke  aUowances  for  hemming,  and  for  the 
shiinkins;  in  the  washing. 

Whemer  upon  the  delivery  of  the  sheets, 
jou  do  or  do  not  apprehend  it  to  be  the  duty 
of  the  steward,  before  they  have  been  washed, 
to  measure  the  sheets,  or  at  least  to  measure 
such  a  Quantity  as  you  think  they  may  be 
able  to  Qo  ? — If  I  vinderstand  the  question 
right,  it  is,  whether  I  measured  the  sheets 
before  or  after  the  washing ;  I  have  nothing 
to  do  with  them  after  they  are  washed,  and 
therefore  could  not  have  measured  them  after 
tbey  were  washed,  except  what  were  returned 
to  IDT  office. 

Whether  you  understand  that  linen  slmnkd 
or  ^tietohes  bv  washing? — ^I  understand  it 
sfaiinks  hy  washing ;  I  have  tried  the  experi- 
ment within  these  six  months. 

What  has  been  the  result  of  the  experiment  ? 
—1  saw  five  vards  of  sheeting  cut  off,  the 
dak  took  it  home,  and  had  it  made  in  his 
own  family,  and  washed,  and  then^  brought  it 
to  BIT  office  again;  upon  measuring  it,  we 
fomidithad  shnmk  near  two  nails  of  a  yard 
iocne  sheet ;  now  that  would  come  out  some- 
tibingniore  upon  wearing,  I  should  think  half 
a  uu,  but  never  near  the  fiill  length. 

I  istnild  ask  you  not  what  you  conjecture, 
\hSl  whether  you  made  anV  experiments  of 
measuring  the  sheets,  ana  measuring  the 
sune  sheets  after  it  YaA  been  wash^  and 
noit  for  a  twelvemonth  ? — ^No,  I  have  not. 

You  mentioned,  that  when  a  piece  of  linen 
no  sooMwllat  short,  that  they  cut  the  pair  of 
sheets  that  were  last  made^  so  much  snorter, 
in  order  not  to  cut  a^ew  piece  ?^We  deduct 
somelhine  firom  every  sheets  or  else  the  last 
dieet  womd  be  so  short,  it  would  not  be  fit  for 


How  far  is  tout  rule  to  go  by,  when  you 
find  a  piece  snort  of  its  measure  ?  You  say 
fcrty  yatds  ought  to  make  five  pah-  df  sheets? 

i€8k 

Suppose  a  piece  of  linen  is  thirty-nine 
3fiids?-— Then  we  make  fji  allowance  ac- 
cordingly, we  divide  it  equally. 

Suppose  it  is  thirty-ei^ht  yards? — ^We  di- 
vide it  accordingly ;  but  if  it  is  only  thirty- 
aeyen  or  diirtyHMven  and  an  half,  so  that  we 
think  the  piece  would  be  too  abort  for  use, 
that  there  would  be  a  complaint,  we  make 
only  seven  sheets  and  leave  a  remnant. 

What  is  'die  precise  nile  you  go  by  to  term 
tbeyiece  too  short,  whether  it  is  thirty-seven 
jwos,  or  thirty-seven  yards  and  an  half  ?— It 
u  kfk  to  the  judgment  of  the  persons  that  cut 
them. 

Who  are  those  persons  ? — ^Two  of  the  clerks' 
^viveshave  <xlt  them  for  late  years  before  my 
Woiatmenty  and  before  my  predecessor's,  I 


.  Who  are  those  people  ? — ^My  first  clerk's 
wife,  and  the  clerk  of  tne  cheque's  wife,  I  be*, 
lieve,  cut  them  all. 

It  is  entirely  left  to  their  discretion,  whether 
they  choose  to  cut  any  quantity  that  may  be 
in  a  piece  Into  five  sheets?— My  clerk  often 
applies  to  me  to  know  my  opinion;  if  he  has 
any  doubt  about  matters  of  that  kind^  he  has 
applied  to  me  to  know  what  I  would  have 
done  in  that  case,  and  I  have  given  him  di- 
rections accordingly. 

I  understood  you  to  mention  two  women  ? 
— Yes,  but  under  his  inspection. 

Whose  ?— My  clerk's,  and  under  my  own 
when  he  lipplies  to  me. 
•  Is  it  left  to  the  women  or  clerk's,  or  your 
discretion,  or  whom  is  it  left  to,  to  be  deter- 
mined, wnat  quantity  shall  be  put  into  eight 
sheets?— When  we  deliver  the  linen  out,  I 
take  it  down  in  a  writing,  upon  paper,  so  many 
yards  delivered,  to  be  made  into  sheets ;  the* 
cleirk  of  the  cheque,  or  his  clerk,  is  present, 
and  cheques  that  account;  when  they  are 
delivered  in,  we  see  that  it  answers  to  that 
account,  as  near  as  possibly  may  be ;  We  must 
make  some  little  allowance;  if  there  appears 
an  inch  in  a  sheet  short,  we  suppose  it  may  be 
from  cutting,  or  some  such  thing. 

You  say,  forty  yards  is  to  make  eight 
sheets ;  is  there  not  any  rule  by  which  th^ 
number  of  yards  is  ascertained,  that  is  Xxs 
make  four  pair  of  sheets ;  suppose  the  priece 
is  thirty-six,  thirty-seven,  thirty-eicht,  thirty- 
nine  or  forty  yards,  have  you  any  rule  when  to 
stop,  and  not  to  make  four  pan-  of  sheets  out 
of  the  piece  ? — ^They  know  my  instructions 
and  directions  in  general,  whicn  are  to  make 
five  yards  in  a  sheet,  but  if  the  piece  nms,  so 
as  by  deducting  a  little  firom  each  sheet,  they* 
Mali  make  the  liill  number,  then  it  is  left  to 
them ;  but  upon  deliverii^  them  into  my  of- 
fice, if  I  think  they  are  made  too  short,  I  send' 
for  those  people,  and  give  them  my  directions 
to  cut  thenr  longer  inmture. 

Is  the  committee  to  understand,  that  your^ 
directions  go  to  these  people,  in  case  there' 
is  a  little  fess,  that  you  leave  that  little^  to* 
their  discretion,  and  then'  they  are  to  brmg 
them  to  you,  and  vou  are  to  judge  whether 
they  have  used  that  discretion  properly  or 
not?— Certainly  so. 

ITien  are  you  answerable  whether  they  use^ 
that  discretion  properly? — ^Yes,  I  and  the- 
clerk  of  the  cheque. 

Then  whether  you  ever  heard  of  those  three- 
hundred  and  eighty-eight  pair  of  sheets  being 
deficient  half  a  yard  in  each  pair  of  sheets  ? — 
I  iMive  read  it  in  Mr.  Bailhe's  chaise  before 
the  committee,  I  believe,  but  never  before ;  I 
am  not  sure  though  whether  it  was  not  made 
to  the  board  of  directors  upon  my  represent- 
ing the  matter ;  how  it  was  to  the  committee 
that  he  afterwards  brought  a  fi'esh  charge  be- 
fore the  board  of  directors,  which  was,  to  the 
best  of  my  recollection,  heard'  before  the 
bos^,  and  I  believe  there  isammuteupon 
it,  but  I  cannot  recollect  when  it  was. 


223] 


18  GE0&6E  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  Baillie,         [23i 


Did  you  take  anv  pains  after  this  measure- 
ment has  bebn  made,  and  you  heard  of  it,  to 
examine  these  sheets,  and  have  them  mea- 
sured again  ? — ^No,  I  did  not. 

Did  you  have  any  of  the  shirts  measured  to 
see  how  they  were? — ^Yes,  wl^en  they  were 
returned  into  my  office. 

What  doypu  mean hy  when  they  wercretum- 
ed  into  your  office?— Of  late  there  has  been  a 
number  of  pensioners  serving  in  his  Majes- 
ty's yard,  and  they  have  wore  out  their  linen 
.  much  more  than  if  they  had  not  been  emploVed, 
and  at  the  end  of  a  serving,  we  have  had  three 
or  four  hundred  shirts  returned,  which  have 
been  washed  and  delivered  out  according  to  my 
discretion ;  I  have  delivered  out  four  or  five 
hundred  within  this  twelvemonth  of  that  kind, 
and  when  I  have  taken  in  the  old  ones,  I  have 
had  them  measured,  to  see  if  there  was  that 
deficiency  as  complained  of,  and  talk^  about 
the  Hospital. 

Had  you  any  measurement  made  of  those 
sheets  of  which  the  witness  that  has  been  l&st 
at  the  bar  has  given  an  account  in  hb  ward  ? 
— ^No,  I  had  not;  I  have  nothing  to  do  with 
them  in  his  war^. 

Have  you  measured  any  of  the  sheets  ill 
tlie  infirmary  ? — ^No. 

You  said  that  there  were  five  hundred,  1 
think,  returned  into  your  office ;  I  want  you 
to  explain  whether  you  measured  those  shirts  ? 
— ^I  measured  some  of  those  upon  being  re- 
turned into  my  office. 

How  did  they  turn  out? — They  did  not  turn 
out  as  represented ;  I  remarked  it  to  my  clerks 
and  people  in  the  office,  that  those  shirts  were 
what  I  thought  a  good  length,  and  what  one 
might  expecl^  allowing  for  making,  and  pro- 
per allowances  that  ought  to  be  made  in  my 
opinion. 

You  say  they  did  not  turn  out  as  represent- 
ed, by  whom  represented? — By  the  lieute- 
nant-governor Baillie;  so  far  as  I  thought, 
they  were  a  good  and  proper  length. 

Did  vou  measure  tnose  complained  of  in 
the  infirmary? — I  did  not;  I  aid  not  know 
in  what  part  of  the  Hospital  he  had  been  to 
measure. 

Whether  the  contractors  are  not  required  to 
deliver  in  their  pieces  as  near  to  forty  yards 
as  possible  ? — ^They  are  Russia  sheeting,  and 
they  generally  run,  I  apprehend,  about  that 
length ;  it  is  not,  as  they  are  Russia  goods,  in 
our  power  to  alter  them;  we  buy  them  at 
so  much  a  yard,  and  therefore,  when  we  take 
in  the  pieces,  it  they  are  thirty-seven  yards, 
th^  are  marked  on  the  outside,  and  I  mea^ 
sure  here  and  there  a  piece,  to  see  wheUier 
^ey  run  the  length  they  are  marked. 

And  would  it  Be  impossible  to  have  all  the 
pieces  of  that  length,  if  they  were  required  to 
send  them  in  of  tluit  length  ?— I  cannot  speak 
to  that  question;  but  f  Apprehend,  as  they 
are  made  in  Russia,  that  it  would  not  be  an 
easy  matter  to  do. 

Whether  they  are  not  paid  according  to 
the   number  of  the  yards  they  contain?— 


According  to   the  number  of  yards  they 
contain. 

Then  the  Hospital  only  pays  for  thirty- 
seven  yards,  if  the  piece  contains  no  more?-^ 
No. 

By  what  authority  or  order  is  this  measure- 
ment settled? — ^By  a  former  steward;  it  is  a 
method  he  proposed. 

What  do  you  imagine  to  be  the  reason  of 
there  being  any  standard  at  all  ? — He  thought 
it  proper,  or  else  we  could  not  settle  our  ac- 
counts; we  settle  our  accounts  by  that 
standaiti. 

Don't  you  imagine  that  standard  mi^ht  be 
settled,  Decause  it  was  a  reasonable  size  ta 
make  sheets  of  ?->-€ertainly. 

Do  you  think  that  ought  to  be  departed 
firom  ? — I  find  Mr.  Bell,  the  steward,  who  set- 
tled that  account,  has  varied  from  it  himself; 
for  I  have  a  sheet  in  my  possession,  which* 
has  been  in  the  possession  of  one  of  the  ma- 
trons a  number  of  years,  and  I  find  it  not 
longer  than  those  in  general  made  in  my 
time. 

W^hen  you  find  these  pieces  don't  answer, 
where  would  be  the  great  inconvenience  of 
having  one  sheet  pieced  ?  Or  would  not  that 
be  more  likely  to  keep  the  rest  according  to 
their  standard,  rather  than  to  have  so  many 
cut  short  of  the  standard  ? — ^There  is  no  in- 
convenience, at  least  I  never  heard  of  a  com- 
plaint of  deducting  that  small  quantity,  and 
It  is  an  advantage  to  the  Hospital,  and  there 
would  be  a  loss,  if  we  were  to  make  them  ex- 
actly of  a  length ;  there  would  be  a  loss  of  15 
or  90/.  in  the  clothing,  to  the  Hospital. 

Do  you  imagine  that  it  is  a  benefit  to  the 
Hospital,  that  the  standard  should  be  dimi- 
nished, to  the  inconvenience  of  the  pen* 
sioners? — It  is  neither  an  inconvenience  nor 
a  prejudice  to  the  pensioners,  I  am  clear  of 
that,  and  it  is  a  benefit  to  the  Hospital. 

Then  do  you  imagine  that  the  standard  is 
too  great? — No. 

Then  account  for  why  you  think  it  no  in- 
convenience to  the  pensioners  to  have  the 
sheets  shorter  than  the  standai:d;  and  yet 
you  think  the  standard  not  longer  than  it 
ought  to  be? — If  it  was  less,  and  a  piece  was 
to  run  over  fmrty  yards,  we  should  have  an 
overplus ;  and  we  could  not  then  account  for 
our  cloth  at  all. 

You  have,  I  think,  said,  that  as  fiir  as  the 
ward  extends,  where  captain  Baillie  complains 
of  the  grievance,  vou  never  have  taken  any ' 
measurement  at  aU  ? — In  that  ward,  I  never 
did  as  I  know. 

Have  you  heard,  that  it  was  usual  to  de- 
liver a  pattern  made  up  of  sheets  or  of  shirts, 
answerins  the  description  that  was  laid  down ; 
and  whewer  it  was  or  was  not  a  very  com- 
mon thing  to  deviate  fi*om  that  pattern  shirt 
or  sheet  ? — ^There  is  no  pattern  or  a  shirt  or  a 
sheet,  but  the  standard. 

They  are  all  made  in  the  bouse? — ^Yes; 
they  arc  made  from  my  office. 

You  say  it  would  be  impossible  to  go  through 


IRQ       r«)M0fnigf  the  Rojfol  HospUalat  Grufnach. .       A.  D.  177S« 


esse 


jUjjewtfgicniof  tiie  wbok^  without  hav- 
mg  s{;reat  many  people  umler  you ;  or  do  you 
ailllMk  k  necesBaiy  to  lake  indisoiminately 
it  diftreiit  mrdsy  and  to  try  such  a  numbcor 
in  each  di£brent  vnxdj  to  see  whether  they 
avmredf-^If  you  understand  by  their  bemg 
vade  ui  the  house,  that  they  are  made  withm 
tke  walk  of  the  HoyitaL  they  are  not;  there 
lie  none,  as  I  know,  made  within  the  walls. 

Whether  you,  or  any  of  the  p^ple  under 
VH,  have  any  perquisite  upon  cutting  out  thb 
mn?— I  have  none. 

Nor  the  people  under  you? — ^Nor  the 
Adn;  except  tneir  wives  that  make  them 
so  much  a  riiirt,  and  so  much  a 


Are  there  any  remnants  allowed  to  themf 
—No;  no  such  thing  b  admitted  in  any  re- 

Ihe  maaufiurturers  of  linen  in  general,  I 
believe,  allow  an  over-measure  to  what  they 
let  down ;  now  does  a  piece,  nominally  of  40 
ymkf  measure  no  more  than  40  yards  ? — 1^ 
this  case  it  does  not;  because  we  don't  con- 
Inet  by  the  piece,  but  by  the  yard. 

Bat  the  person  that  contracts  for  this  linen, 
eootracts  by  the  piece  ? — No,  by  the  yard,  at 
voMich  a  yard ;  if  a  piece  contains  37  or  38 
juds,  we  pay  for  no  more  than  97  or  38 
jnds. 

But  apiece  that  b  set  down  to  you  as  40 
fards,  shoold  measure  41  or  42  yards? — In 
Ihis  case  they  charge  to  a  quarter  of  a  yard ; 
tfacy  charge  ar  and  a  quarter,  or  37  and  three- 
fBoten. 

They  always  allow  a  piece ;  a  thumb  as 
they  call  it? — There  is  no  allowance  made; 
the  contract  b  for  so  much  a  yard ;  if  we  con- 
tacted by  the  piece,  then,  in  most  pieces  of 
IbcQ,  tikere  b  an  aUowance  of  three-quartcBS 
oft  yard,  or  a  yard  over;  but  as  we  contract 
hytfae  yaiid,  they  measure  to  half  a  yard,  or  to 
aouarterofayard. 

The  contractor  buys  it  of  the  linen-draper 
b]r  the  piece ;  then,  of  course,  he  should  serve 
m  contract  with  the  pieces  as  he  pays  for 
them;  and  if  he  pays  for  but  40  yards  when 
he  has  41,  he  should  chaige  but  40. — It  has 
•Inayt  been  customary  to  charge  to  half  a 
|iid,  or  a  quarter  of  a  vard. 

Whether  yoii  recollect  your  having  said, 
tiiat  thi^  contracted  by  th^  piece ;  that  some- 
tunes  the  piece  ran  37  and  sometimes  40 
JtA}  My  reason  for  asking  this  question  is, 
to  fix  it  tluit  the  contract  is  made  by  the  piece. 
*-No^itbnot;  and  your  lordship  misunder- 
stood me.  [Mr.  Godby  withdrew.} 

Mr.  Maule  called  in. 

lilQiedier  ftke  ^eets  are  of  the  right  length 
it  nesent? — I  believe  so. 

whatveason  have  yon  to  think  that  they 
y^I  have  known  the  Hospital  a  great 
Mgf  years,  and,  till  very  lately.!  never  heard 
oft  complatnt  at  aU  of  the  kind. 
-  Wbttreaaonhave  you  to  think  that  they 
•BQoiihoitflr  ihaatlvy  wtfrc  formerly ?--4 

VOL  XXI. 


don't  know  that  they  are  shorter  than  they 
were  formerly* 

Did  you  never  hear  a  complaint  of  the  kindf 
—Not  till  very  lately ;  and  though  there  is  an 
establbhed  quantity  for  each  sheet,  it  has  not 
been  the  custom  to  makd  them  so,  if  the 
pieces  of  cloUi  did  not  run-  in  proportion  to 
the  nuinber  that  each  piece  should  make ;  and 
I  believe  that  has  always  been  the  custom^ 
wace  Uie  Hospital  was  first  established. 

vAre  the  pieces  of  linen  not  always  of  the 
tame  length?— They  run  from  37  to  37|,  38 
and  so  on  to  39( ;  .very  seldom  to  40. 

You  seldom  find  any  pieces  of  the  full 
lensth  ? — Very  seldom. 

Do  you  speak  from  your  certain  knowledge, 
that  the  sheets  are  not  now  shorter  than  they 
were  before  ? — ^I  don't  say  that  they  are  at 
present. 

You  say  they  are  not  shorter  now ;  whether 
they  were  not  shorter  before  the  complaint 
was  made  by  captain  Baillie? — ^I  belieire  they 
are  now,  as  they  have  been  made  for  many 
years  past. 

Do  you  speak  firom  your  certain  knowledge 
that  the  sheets  are  now  no  shorter  than  they 
^ere  before  ?«*-!  never  heard  till  very  lately, 
as  I  said  before,  that  the  sheets  were  shdrter 
now  than  they  were  formerly. 

Answer  thai  question  directly ;  do  you  kno^ 
of  your  own  knowledge,  that  the  sneets  aie 
now  of  the  same  lengtn  as  they  were  before^ 
— ^Ail  that  have  come  within  my  knowledge. 

How  many  have  come  within  your  know- 
ledge?— ^A  great  many. 

How  many  ? — ^I  suppose  100  pair  or  more. 

Oil  of  how  many  ?--^me  thousands. 

How  many  thousands  ? — Very  likely  three 
or  four  thousand. 

How  many  hundred  pair,  out  of  these  three 
or  four  thousand,  have  you  measured  ? — I  sup- 
pose an  hundred  pair  I  have  seen  measured. 

And  were  those  equal  to  the  standard? — ^I 
have  alreadv  told  your  lordships,  that  I  never 
knew  that  they  were  to  the  standard. 

What  rule  have  vou  to  go  by  to  say,  that  in 
former  times  the  sneets  were  shorter  than  the 
standard  ?  By  how  much  were  they  shorter  f 
— I  cannot  speak  particularly  to  that;  but  I 
do,  from  my  own  knowledge,  know  that  the 
sheets  were  formerly  made  as  they  are  now, 
and  in  Uie  same  manner,  and  by  the  same, 
people. 

You  say  they  were  shorter,  but  don't  know 
by  how  much;  I  desire  you  will  saytiieii, 
Kow  you  can  possibly  know  that  the  present 
sheets  are  not  shorter  than  those  were? — 1 
said,  at  the  same  time,  that  though  it  was  a 
nominal  thing  that  the  sheets  were  to  consist 
of  five  yards,  yet  I  believe  they  never  were  of 
that  quantity. 

By  now  much  were  they  shorter  ? — I  oannot 
particularly  say. 

If  you  don't  know  by  how  much^hey  were 
shorter,  how  can  you  possibly  mv,  wet  vou 
donH  laiow  that  they  are  now  shorter  uam 
they  were  tl^en*?— 4  n^er  heard  vooeafdaisl* 

Q 


93T] 


18  GEORGE  m.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUtk^         [fi2S 


That  is  not  the  question;  you  say,  that 
from  your  knowledge,  the  hundred  sheets  you 
measured  were  the  same  length  as  those  be- 
fore; now  you  say,  jrou  don't  know  the  exact 
length  of  those  betbre;  how  then  can  you 
know  that  these  ate  of  the  same  measure  ?— 
I  have  measured  them-  freqiiently  for- 
merty,  when  I  was  a  clerk  in  the  clerk  of  ^e 
cheque's  office ;  and  I  have  seen  them  mea- 
sure since  I  have  been  in  the  present  office, 
and  since  I  have  been  clerk  of  the  cheque 
myself  I  have  often  seen  them  measured,  and 
I  don't  know  that  there  is  any  difference  be- 
tween those  made  formerly  and  those  made 
now.  < 

When  you  measured  the  sheets  formerly, 
of  what  length  were  they? — ^I  believe  short  a 
quarter  of  a  yard;*  I  have  seen  them  so  very 
often. 

You  said  you  measured  them;  you  are  to 
speak  to  a  fact,  not  lipon  belici';  have  you 
taken  any  account  of  now  much,  upon  an 
average,  a  certain  quantity  of  sheets  mea- 
sured r— I  have  not ;  but  it  occurs  to  my  me- 
mory that  they  have  been  a  quarter  of  a  yard 
in  a  sheet  short  formerly. 

Have  you  measured  any  number  of  sheets 
latterly  ? — I  have  seen  a  great  many  measured 
lately. 

Have  you  made  any  computation,  and  cast 
it  into  an  average,  to  see  how  much  they  were 
^ort  ? — ^No ;  wit  I  apprehend  they  were  not 
more  than  that  short ;  none  that  I  have  mea- 
sured have. beea  more  than  that  short. 

Are  the  committee  to  understand  yon^  that 
when  you  say  they  are  not  shorter,  it  is  from  a 

Eeneral  supposition,  and  not  from  any  calcu- 
ition  or  measurement  ? — ^I  have  seen  a  great 
many  measured  lately,  and  seldom  any  of 
them  have  exceeded  that  of  being  a  quarter  of 
a  yard  short. 

Have  you  made  any  computation  upon  any 
number,  to  say  that  such  a  number  produce 
so  much,  and  upon  an  average  they  were  so 
much  shorter  ?— No,  I  have  not. 

Are  the  committee  to  understand  you  that 
you  speak  from  conjecture,  and  not  from 
measurement? — ^I  have  seen  a  great  many 
measured. 

Can  you  speak  to  any  certain  number  that 
you  have  seen  measured,  t^iat  do  all  of  them 
come  within  a  quarter  of  a  yard  exactly,  or 
nearly  ? — No ;  I  have  only  seen  here  or  there 
•ome  measured  when  a  quantity  have  been 
delivered  in. 

Then  do  you  speak  from  your  judgment  of 
the  measurement  of  one,  or  two.  Or  uuree  pair 
of  sheets,  but  not  from  the  measurement  of 
any  large  number  from  whence  you  have  made 
an  average  ?-*No;  I  have  never  measured 
any  larae  nimiber. 

E.  of  Chesterfield,  Whether  the  sheets  are 
long  enough  for  the  beds?-— I  think  they  are. 


•  At 

Ulis 


•re-  four  bmdllis  -in  a  pair  of  ibeets, 
a  dsfioieiiev  of  5.000  vardt  in  lo-ouuiy 
thtkpvpilaL    Orig.EdH. 


Do  you  know  whether  they  are  ornot?^-! 
say,  I  think  they  are. 

In  that  ward  particularly  that  captsin  Bail- 
lie  comphuned  of  ?— No ;  I  speak  ot  the  whole 
house  in  general. 

You  say  the  sheets  are  nominallv  five  yards ; 
have  you  no  pattern  sheet  to  go  oy;  what  is 
the  standard  measure  you  go  by? — ^I  don't 
know  that  there  is  any  pattern  sheet. 

Is  there  no  standard  to  eo  by.^— No;  it  has 
been  looked  upon  to  be  nve  yards;  it  is  a 
mere  nominal  thing  that  they  should  consist 
of  five  yards. 

Do  you  understand  a  standard  rule  is  to  be 
a  mere  nominal  thine,  and  never  to  be  ad- 
hered to? — I  speak,  that  it  has  been  custo- 
marv  in  the  cutting  up  the  cloth. 

The  standard  is  two  yards  and  an  half  long  ^ 
—Yes. 

What  length  are  the  sheets  now  cutting 
up  ?— I  really  don't  know. 

Do  you  lieep  up  to  your  standard  of  two 
yards  and  a  half?  Have  you  measured  them  ? 
— I  have  not. 

Have  you  measured  none  of  them  ?— Not 
very  lately. 

How  lately  since  you  measured  any? — It  la 
a  twelvemonth  ago,  I  believe,  since  I  meap* 
suredany. 

And  are  there  none  at  this  time  making  f — 
Yes,  there  are. 

How  came  you  not  to  measure  them  ?  Is  it 
not  in  your  office  ? — ^I  have  not  been  long  iu 
the  office  that  I  now  enjoy;  the  first  clerk  in 
the  office  that  I  preside  at  has  been  SO  yeara 
in  that  «nploy,  and  I  looked  upon  him  to, be 
a  better  judge  than  I  am,  with  regard  to  all 
them  matters. 

Therefore  you  leave  it  to  your  clerk  to  do 
all  that  business  ?--Only  some  particular  parte 
of  it. 

What  length  were  those  sheets  when  a 
c«)mplaint  was  made  about  them?  Did  you 
measure  them  then  ?— The  sheets  were  not  in 
the  custody  of  any  body,  but  were  delivered 
out;  they  were  in  the  infirmary,  and  as  I  un- 
derstand, the  late  lieutenant-governor  sent  te 
tlie  infirmary  in  an  odd  manner,  and  got  those 
sheets  and  measured  them ;  it  was  not  known 
to  any  of  the  officers  of  the  Hospital  that 
those  sheets  were  measured  at  all. 

What  was  the  measure  of  them  then  ? — ^I 
don*t  know. 

How  much  less  than  the  standard  ?— I  don't 
know  that. 

You  were  not  then  clerk  of  the  cheque,  I 
suppose  ?— I  have  been  a  long  time  at  sea. 

How  long  have  you  been  clerk  of  the 
cheoue  ? — Smce  May,  1776. 

Tnatwas  before  this  complaint,  I  under- 
stand?— Yes. 

As  it  was  in  your  office,  you  certainly  mea- 
sured them  a  year  ago  ? — I  saw  a  g^eat  nuo^ 
ber  of  them  measured  at  the  steward'a  office^ 
thev  were  measured  there. 

What  did  they  measure  a  vearago?  Di4 
they  come  up  Id  thiagtendaTa  of  twe  yai^ 


fiH|}         ntpeaing  Ae  Rm/al  ttotpiul  at  Greemuck.        A.  D.  1778» 


C230 


tnl »  half  in  kogth? — ^I  have  said  heSoie,  I 
kave  found  tbem  to  be  a  Quarter  of  a  yard 
ihoit  of  what  ia  oommoiuy  esiaemed  the. 
sdiidanL 

Uj  questioD  to  you  was  thiSy  what  did  they 
meisuFeayearago?  You  said  you  measured 
them  a  Tear  ago.  .  Did  they  come  up  to  the 
itandara  of  two  yards  and  a  half  lone,  and 
fire  yards  to  the  sheet,  at  that  time?— No ;  I 
have  told  your  lordships  before,  that  several  I 
measured  a  year  ago  were  a  quarter  of  a  yanl 
ihoil,  and  I  believe  that  was  owing  to  the 
shrinking  of  the  linen. 

I  understood  that  you  were  to  measure 
those  sheets  before  they  were  made  up;  we 
have  just  been  told  that  was  the  time  of  mea- 
funngthem,  and  not  afterwards ;  when  did 
you  measure  them  ? — ^Ailer  they  were  return- 
ed made. 
And  washed?—- No. 

Then  how  could  they  shrink  so  much  ? — ^It 
was  after  they  wer^  brought  home  made,  and 
not  washed. 

And  then  they  were  a  quarter  of  a  yard 
short? — ^I  observed  several  of  them  a  quarter 
of  a  yard  short,  as  I  mentioned  to  your  lord- 
ahqis  before. 

And  did  not  you  try  to  redress  this  because 
it  came  into  your  own  office? — ^No;  it  has 
been  the  practice  of  the  Hospital^  as  far  as  I 
can  remember,  and  ever  heard,  with  re^ird  to 
the  Quantity  of  linen  that  each  piece  contain- 
ed, that  the  sheets  were  calculated  so  as  to 
cause  the  shortness  now  complained  of 

Whether  you  have  anv  reason  to  believe 
that  the  measurement  that  Mr.  Field  made 
was  not  a  fair  measurement  ? — I  believe  a  hit 

[Mr.  Maule  withdrew.] 


one. 


Captun  BaiUie  called  in  again. 


Whether  you  ndade  any  complaint  at  any 
time  of  the  situation  of  the  tailors'  shop  being 
such,  as  to  be  likely  to  occasion  fire  in  Green- 
inch  Hospital? — ^Ab6ut  last  January  was 
twelve  months,  there  was  a  proposal  from  a 
tailor  to  take  the  Hospital  contract,  upon 
some  information  he  had  received  tnat  the 
contractor  was  in  a  bad  state  of  health,  and 
wished  to  decline;  there  was  a  circular  letter 
sent,  I  believe,  to  all  the  directors  of  the  Hos- 
pital upon  that  occasion ;  amongst  the  rest  I 
Lad  one,  and  some  time  after  that  a  public  letr 
tcr  appeared  at  the  board  from  a  contracting 
lulor,  making  a  tender  to  the  board  in  conse- 
mience  of  the  information  he  had  received  of 
toe  ill  state  of  health  of  the  former  contractor ; 
the  matter  was  then  only  talked  of  at  the 
hoai^  of  directors^  for  the  former  contractor 
bad  no  intention  it  seemed  to  resign.  I  gave 
my  opinion  to  the  board  of  directors,  that 
tbere  was  danger  of  fire  from  the  tailors'  shop 
in  the  Hospit^,  where  I  thought  there  was  a 
scene  of  orunkenness  and  mssipation ;  the 
taiknrs  were  permitted  to  sell  drams,  and  they 
kept  a  kind  of  suttling-house  in  the  Hospital ; 
I  peinted  out  the  danger  of  fire,  and  when  the 
aunmittee  joat  in  A«  Hospital  to  enquire  into 


the  g^pounds  of  the  several  charges,  they  paid 
not  the  least  attention  to  that  matter,  no  more 
than  they  did  to  many  o^ers. 

Whether  you  gave  information  to  any  set 
of  men,  that  there  was  danger  of  fire  from  the. 
practice  of  the  tailors  in  the  Hospital? — ^I 
mentioned  it  when  the  contractor  made  pro- 
posals ;  I  objected  then ;  I  said  I  thoueht  it 
an  improper  place  for  the  tailors  to  work  in ; 
that  tnere  was  danger  firom  fire,  saving,  it 
would  be  a  shore  eiigibte  mode  to  buy  the 
clothes  ready  made,  and  to  serve  them  out  as 
pursers  do  in  his  majesty's  ships. 

Did  vou  object  to  the  tailors  working  in  tha 
place  they  work  in  ? — I  did. 

You  represented  that  there  was  danger  of  firo 
from  the  tailors  working  where  they  did  by 
candle  light? — I  did,  to  Uie  board  of  atrectors, 
and  pointed  it  out  afterwards  in  my  com- 
plaint. 

Do  vou  know  any  thing  of  the  fire  that 
lately  happened  in  Greenwich  Hospital? — I 
knew  nothing  of  it  till  the  morning  I  was 
ffoing  to  London ;  at  eight  o'clock  I  heard 
uiere  was  a  fire  in  Greenwich  Hospital. 

Is  there  any  person  here  that  can  ^ve  an 
account  where  that  fire  began? — I  should 
think  it  the  dutv  of  the  captain  and  lieutenant 
of  the  week  to  know  something  about  it. 

Who  were  the  captain  and  lieutenant  of  the 
week? — ^I  was  out  of  office  ^en;  I  have 
heard  that  lieutenant  Kerr  was  lieutenant  of 
the  week. 

Why  do  you  think  that  place  particularly 
improper  for  the  tailors  to  have  worked  in  ? — 
Because  it  is  a  great  way  from  the  officers  to 
visit  that  wud,  and  it  incumbered  the  Hospi* 
tal  very  much,  and  took  up  the  place  of  a 
great  number  of  pen»onav;  I  thought  it 
would  be  better  applied  in  havine  cabms  for 
pensioners ;  that  ward  is  not  under  the  care 
of  the  officers ;  the  steward  has  the  direction 
and  management  of  the  tailors'  shop,  and  it  is 
scarcely  ever  visited  by  the  officers  of  the 
Hospital ;  your  lordships  will  find  it  was  inune- 
diately  over  the  chapel. 

Was  your  objection  to  the  danger  of  fire, 
because  the  tailors  were  not  under  the  inspec- 
tion of  the  officers  ?— That  ward  was  always 
locked  up  at  night ;  if  the  officers  or  guard  so 
their  liimds  there,  they  can't  get  in ;  it  is  lock- 
ed up,  and  the  key  is  under  the  care  of  the 
stewanl  and  tailor,  and  these  people. 

I  understood  you  objected  to  it,  because  tha 
tailors  sold  drams,  and  kept  a  kind  of  suttling- 
house? — ^I  did  not  object  to  it  particular^ 
upon  that  account,  because  till  after  the  mk 
I  did  not  know  tlwt  circumstance;  it  came 
out  then. 

What  was  the  reason  of  your  objecting  to  it 
at  that  time  ? — It  ^as  when  the  contracting 
tailor  made  an  offer- 
Why  did  you  think  it  likely  that  fire  should 
take  place  there? — Because  it  was  never  visit- 
ed at  nights  by  the  euard  of  the  Hospital;  tha 
patrole  never  viaiteo  it;  they  never  oonAi  get 
mto  that  ward* 


«S1] 


18  GBOttGfe  III.  The  Que  ofCapkm  TkMfat  BMUy 


Do  you  apprehend  the  fiit  begin  in  the;te« 
lore' room? — I  have  every  reason  to  believe 
86,  from  what  has  transpired  in  the  Hospital. 

Have  you  seen  any  of  the  examinations  that 
were  taken  before  sir  John  Fielding  ? — ^I  never 
saw  any  of  the  examinations;  but  I  have 
great  reason  to  believe  that  neither  the  cap- 
tain nor  lieutenant  of  the  week  were  called 
upon  on  that  occasion ;  it  seemed  to  me  to  be 
rather  a  partial  enquiiy. 

It  was  upon  oath,  therefore  what  reason 
to\AA  you  have  for  thinking  so  ? — ^I  did  not 
hear  that  any  body  was  examined  upon  oath ; 
I  was  outof  office,  and  I  was  not  calred  upon ; 
the  captain  and  lieutenant  of  the  week  were 
ihe  proper  officers ;  the  House  vrill  hear  whe- 
ther all  the.  commissioned  officers  were  exa^ 
mined  or  not. 

'  Is  that  the  only  reason  you  have  for  think- 
ing it  a  partial  enquiiy,  that  you  have  not 
heard  thev  were  examined  upon  oath  ? — ^I  did 
not  hear  that  the  commissioned  officers,  whose 
duty  it  was  to  know  something  about  it,  were 
all  examined. 

Was  that  the  duly  reason  for  your  thinking 
it  a  partial  enquify? — ^I  don't  Know  of  any 
ether  reason.        [Captain  Bailtie  wiUidrew.J 

Lieutenant  Kerr  called  in. 

Inform  the  committee  of  v^at  you  know 
respecting  the  fire  that  happened  m  Green- 
wich Hospital.  Do  you  know  where  it  began } 
— ^Upon  my  word  I  am  incapable  to  tell  where 
H  began.  In  the  morning,  about  a  quarter 
before  five^  when  I  happened  to  be  m  bed 
With  my  wifo,  and  the  Koyal  Charlotte  ward 
is  directiy  over  me,  which  has  a  passage  down 
from  where  the  fire  began,  or  near  to  it,  I 
heard  people  running  backumd  and  forward ; 
I  thought  it  had  been  the  boys  running,  as 
usual,  at  six  in  the  morning  to  go  to  school ; 
soon  afler  I  heard  that  the  tailors'*  shop  was 
on  fire ;  I  jumped  out  of  bed,  put  on  my  clothes, 
and  went  up  to  the  place,  where  I  fomid  a 
^reat  deal  of  smoke  m  the  Duke  of  York's 
ward;  they  told  me  there,  tiiat  the  tailord* 
shop  was  on  fire;  I  went  up  close  to  it,  and 
found  a  prodigious  deal  of  smoke ;  I  was  ask- 
ed by  one  of  them  if  I  had  an  hatchet;  I  ran 
down  and  brought  up  a  broad  axe  to  break  the 
door;  I  gave  it  to  a  man,  and  then  ran  to  eet 
open  the  two  great  reservoirs  of  water,  and  I 
ordered  the  water  to  be  thrown  on  the  floor, 
hoping  it  was  an  accidental  local  fire  in  the 
vrutl:  in  about  ten  minutes  after  I  found 
they  had  broke  open  a  place  on  the  lefl  side 
of  the  steps  goins  up  to  the  tidlors'  shop;  I 
looked  down,  anasaw  a  small  fire,  not  blazing 
up,  but  as  if  it  had  been  continued  for  some 
time.  They  broke  open  the  door.  The  boy 
and  the  man  gave  their  evidence  to  sir  John 
Fielding;  how  they  ^ve  their  evidence,  God 
onlv  knows;  they  said — 

The  committee  donH  want  to  know  what 
fhey  said.  What  did  you  see?— What  I  saw 
iiras  only  that  there  was  a  fire  at  the  left  side 
of  the  steps  a  going  up;  when  it  broke 


p 


tfcx<liigh.we  could  not  getat  the#irt^;  Ipff^ 
the  clerk  of  ^e  chequers  clerk  the  a^  to  eut 
open  the  doors  to  get  at  the  reservoir^  of 
water ;  I  went  to  the  King's,  the  uppermost 
ward:  then  I  went  down  to  the  Townsend; 
and  then  to  the  Prince  of  Wales's  ward:  cap- 
tain AUwright  went  with  me  to  see  if  t})m 
was  any  fire  in  the  nurses'  ward,  or  in  the 
anartments  Ihat  were  under  these  apartments  ; 
tnere  vras  none ;  I  put  my  cheek  to  the  side 
of  the  place,  and  said,  here  is  the  fire,  I  fed 
the  heat  strike  to  met  I  ran  up  again  to  the 
wards  above  me  and  found  the  fire.  To  the 
best  of  my  knowled^,  and  the  jndgmetit  I 
can  ^ve  of  the  afian*,  it  was  in  the  taHorsP 
shop  that  the  fire  began. 

Were  you  the  officer  of  the  mttk  ?— Yes. 

To  what  extent  did  this  fire  go  ?— To  a  Very 
unfortunate  extent  indeed ;  beyond  the  expec- 
tation of  mankind ;  beyond  what  any  man  ac- 
quainted with  Greenwich  Hospital  ever  could 
conceive.  • 

How  many  pensioners  were  burnt  out?— I 
believe  not  above  SOO,  or  about  890  or  390 ;  I 
cant  ascertain  the  exact  number ;  but  I  don't 
brieve  more  thantluit 

Have  you  any  guess  of  the  extent  of  the  da» 
mage,  to  what  amount  it  will  reauire  to  rfptir 
it? — I  am  no  judge  of  anv  such  thing. 

Was  there  a  great  deal  of  furniture  lost?*^ 
I  don't  know  ^mat  fiimiture  might  be  lost  bj 
the  indiscretion  of  the  people  mo  were  tent 
fifom  the  different  yards;  more  damage  was 
done  than  what  the  fire  did ;  if  they  would 
have  taken  advice,  there  would  not  have  beea 
so  much  damage  aone ;  many  wards  #ere  ia^ 
m^d  that  were  not  damaged  by  th^fire. 

vv  hether  you  did  ever  apprehend,  or  declare 
your  apprehensions  of  a  rear  of  fire  in  that 
particular  part  where  the  iixt  happened,  before 
it  did  happen  ?— There  was  a  man  brought  U> 
the  councu;  I  bdng  lieutenant  of  th^  wedt, 
our  nurses  compkined  to  me  that  a  man  had 
a  candle  in  his  cabin;   when  I  cametoefi* 

r\  into  it,  I  found  the  man  Was  guli|^  ^ 
fault ;  he  had  no  ridxt,  at  any  time,  te 
have  a  candle  in  his  cabin;  the  nurse  took 
the  candle  out,  and  he  struck  her;  the  malt 
made  frivolous  excuses  to  me ;  I  insisted  upon 
it  that  it  should  be  brought  to  coundlt  I  sent 
down  to  captain  Chads,  who  was  the  captm 
of  the  week,  and  bid  him  put  it  upon  the  list 
of  the  complaints ;  I  said  I  woula  never  fofw 
give  a  candle's  being  in  a  cabin  at  an  unusual 
time ;  the  man  came,  and  asked  me  to  fox^gfv# 
it ;  I  sud  if  I  did,  I  hoped  God  would  never 
forgive  me ;  it  was  brought  to  council,  and  he 
was  punished;  I  wislied  him  to  have  had 
three  months,  or  two  months  at  least,  but  he 
had  only  a  month's  punishment;  I  begged 
the  council  would  give  orders  to  ^e  boat- 
swains to  prevent  the  irregularity  of  the  pen- 
sioners havine  li^ts  in  their  cabins;  lor  if 
any  accident  happened,  I  was  afraid  H  would 
be  from  the  tXnce  of  York's  ward^  for  they 
were  irregular,  drunken,  turbulent,  trouble*' 
somepeo^;  and  this  was  aH  I  did  say ;  bot 


iHS]        rapeeliHg  tke  Roy^  Hospittl  at  Onandch.        AttkVnB, 


ISM 


vWi  M  fiirllMf  nteiitiony  WiAilig  the  coon* 
ai  would  ooDciir  with  what  I  bad  said. 

If  I  imderstood  yon  right,  you  tmd  that  be- 
fcre  tlie  fire  happened,  you  wete  apprehensiTe 
that  that  was  a  likely  part  for  a  fira  to  ha^n 
m;  andTouhadiDadeaeompkunt;  twisnto 
fellow  that  question  a  Ultie  fiirther:  who 
were  the  persons  jwl  idade  the  eomplaint  tof 
^t  was  in  councd  I  made  the  complaifit 

Who  composed  that  council? — Hwas  the 
conunoD  council  of  the  Hospital ;  I  heliere 
tiie  fieutenant-gorefnor  and  captain  Lynn 
were  there,  and  several  captains ;  I  cannot  as- 
eertain  iramedtately  that ;  hut  all  my  mean- 
iitt  was  no  more  than  wishing  tiie  concurrence 
ifme  council  to  support  me  in  my  duty  as  a 
faeatenanty  having  a  (arge  and  extensive  dtvi- 
^bn  under  my  care,  that  they  would  give  an 
order,  which  would  be  more  circumstantial 
than  :aine,  as  an  individual  officer ;  I  netther 
mesit^  nor  thought,  nor  ^hed  no  other. 

Whether  you  were  apprehensive  that  a  fire 
m^t  happen  in  that  place,  and  made  your 
eomphdnt  to  the  council?  You  named  the 
Keutenant-govemor  as  one  of  th&t  couiKil; 
#13  the  apprehension  of  the  fear  of  fire  in  that 
^bce  su^ested  by  you  to  the  lieutenanVgo- 
vemor  orby  the  lieutenant-governor  to  you? 
—I  meant  it  in  j^eneral,  that  I  would  wish  to 
br  sujmortedy  as  I  had  given  orders  that  there 
should  be  no  Hghts ;  1  meant  no  other,  tlmn 
tbatmy  orders  should  be  enforced. 

Were  yon  ever  examined  by  ^  John  Field- 
ing?—I  was. 

TOO  said,  that  there  were  about  900  pen- 
sioners burnt  out ;  how  long  was  it  before 
there  were  lodg^gs  for  them  again  ?— >I  be- 
fieve  if  the  men  would  have  come  in,  if  they 
bad  not  availed  themselves  of  wishing  to  lie 
out,  they  might  have  been  accommodated  the 
veiy  ni^t  the  fire  was :  I  believe  I  could  have 
accommodated  them  myself,  if  I  had  been  left 
to  do  it;  and  I  believe  every  officer  in  the 
Hospital,  to  tbe  utmost  of  their  power,  took 
every  method  to  accommodate  them. 

You  were  examined,  you  say,  before  sir  John 
Fielding  ?— Yes. 

Did  It  appear,  upon  that  exammation,  tibat 
the  fire  broKe  out  first  in  the  toem  where  the 
tailors  were? — I  cui  only  answer  for  what  I  said 
njself;  I  was  jaot  present;  I  believe  it  waa 
very  evident  to  every  body,  to  the  best  of  my 
knowledge,  tfaat  it  fcffoke  out  there,  and  there 
ody. 

^  Who  was  the  lieutenant-governor  at  the 
time  yon  mentioned  to  the  council  your  appre- 
henaions  of  fiie? — Lietitenant^vemor  Ma- 
pieaden.  [Lieutenant  Kerr  withdrew.] 

lieutenant  Smith  called  in. 

^  Were  you  at  Greenwich  Hospital  at  the 
fitne  the  fife  i>egan?— «I  was  not;  I  was  in 
town. 

Bow  soon  were  you  at  the  Hospieal  ?— I 
bc&nre  about  noon ;  the  damage  was  mostly 
*^  by  the  time  I  came. 

wre  yoa  «Dy  jeascm  to  kftow  yfhett  the 


fife  began  f—Aa  to  formhig  aay  fto«iOD  wtoB 
it  beean,  I  cert^My  could  not;  llMǤ^  I  ditf ' 
s^(l  donl  knowiyheth«r  I  havi  aftr  fouA^ 
tion  for  it  ornot>tlia«I  iraaginM  H  broke  dot 
at  the  vestry. 

[lieutenant  Smith  withdrew.] 


3\f eadsy,  April  90. 
Captain  B<ulUe  called  io. 

Whether  you  know  any  thing  of  tlie  method 
in  which  the  linen  is  eut  out  id  Greenwicll' 
Hospital ?— Do  yott  apeak  of  sheets  or  ahirts? 

The  sheeti^e. — ^A  piece  of  sheeting  is  g^ne* 
rally  cut  into  nxteen  lengths^  to  make  ^n 
sheets ;  each  length  ought  to  connst  of  ^vo 
yards  and  an  half;  a  piece  of  Russia  sheeting 

gsdetally  contains  thirty-seven  ywds  and  an 
alf ;  tint  beinr  cut  kite  sixteen  lengths, 
dues  not  run  to  we  standard  of  the  Hospitid  ; 
instead  of  sixteen  lengths,  it  ought  to  be  cut 
into  fifteen  only ;  by  which  means  two  pieces 
will  make  fifteen  sheets ;  and  by  cutting  fbtir 
pieces  in  that  manner,  they  will  makt  exactly 
fifteen  pair  of  sheets ;  instead  of  which  the 
praetiee  is,  to  cut  four  pieces  into  sixteen  pur 
of  sheets,  by  wtiieh  means  there  is  a  pair  of 
sheets  more  ttum  there  ought  to  be  oy  tho 
establishment.  It  has  l&ewise  bOen  the 
practice  of  the  butcher's  servant  to  reduce 
each  man's  potmd  of  meat  to  fourteen  ounces, 
for  whkh  he  was  transported. 

Whether  the  pieces  of  Ikien  in  genera!  nah' 
thirty-s6ven  yards  atid  an  half  ?— -Thev  are 
bougnt  for  thirty  ells,  that  is  exactly  thir^-' 
seven  yards  and  an  half;  and  if  you  search 
Cheapside,  from  one  end  to  the  other,  I  be* 
lieve  It  vrill  be  fbimd  to  be  the  length. 

With  regard  to  the  men's  shirts,  whether 
they  have  been  delivered  according  to  the 
standard? — I  believe  not.  Three  yards  and 
an  half  is  the  standard  lor  every  shirt  in 
Greenwich  Hospital.  Throughout  the  Ho»« 
pital,  I  will  venture  to  say,  they  run  but  about 
three  yards  and  a  quarter;  for  the  larse  men 
they  genentiy  aJkw  three  yards  anl  three 
quarters.  There  is  a  gentleman  I  have  seen 
here  to-day,  who  is  a  draper,  he  can  tell  the 
exact  lengui  of  the  pieces. 

What  IS  hia  Aame  ?->Hi8  name  is  Price ;  I 
do  not  know  hi^  Christian  name,  for  I  never* 
saw  him  before.    [Csqptun  Baillie  wHhdrOw.] 

The  duke  of  Richmond  then  moved.  That 
the  House  be  resumed ;  and  a  short  debate 
ensued  upon  the  propriety  of  Mr.  Price  eiving 
evidence,  as  he  had  not  been  summoned. 

Resolved,  That  Mr.  Price  inight  be  ad* 
mitted  to  give  evidence.  Mr.  Price  was  ^hero- 
fore  called,  and  sworn  at  the  bar.  TheQouae 
being  again  resolved  into  a  committee. 

What  is  vour  name  ? — Edward  Price. 
Where  do  you  live } — ^I  live  m  iMadttiOOr^ 
street,  Clare-market 
Are  you  a  linen-draper  ?--^l  am. 
Do  you  deal  m  Russia  linen  ?-^I  do. 


9SS] 


ISO^KGB  m.         The  OueofCaptm  Thomas BaiOie,         [236 


What  kngth  are  J^o^  of  Russia  sheeting, 
upon'  an  avenge  ?— The  fabric  is  thirty  ells, 
or  thirty-seven  yards  and  an  half  each  piece, 
seldom  more  or  less.     [Mr.  Price  withorew.] 

Capt  Baillie  called  in  again. 

Whether  there  were  any  proceedinffs  amnst 
you,  in  Westminster-hall,  tor  a  libel  ? — There 
were  six  informations  moved  against  me,  in 
the  court  of  King's-bench,  for  the  Memorial  I 
drew  up  of  the  state  of  Greenwich  Hospital; 
it  was  m  the  name  of  the  directors  and  others 
of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

What  were  the  names  in  which  the  infor- 
mations were  brought?— rin  the  name  of  Mr. 
Hicks,  the  sixpenny  receiver ;  Mr.  Stuart,  the 
surveyor  of  the  Hospital ;  and  the  rev.  Mr. 
Cooke,  as  directors.  After  that,  my  lords, 
they  were  consolidated  into  one  or  more  in- 
formations ;  and  there  was  the  secretaiy,  Mr. 
Ibbet^n;  the  clerk  of  the  works,  Mr.  Mylne: 
Mr.  Stuart,  the  surveyor  of  the  Hospital ;  and 
Mr.  Godby,  the  steward;  in  theu*  separate 
capacities.  i 

Do  you  mean  actions  or  informations? — 
Actions.  They  moved  for  rules^  in  the  King's- 
bench,  to  shew  cause  why  an  mformation  or 
informations  should  not  be  granted  against 
me  for  a  libel. 

Is  your  solicitor  here  ? — "So, 

Do  you  mean  motions  for  informations  or 
actions  ? — ^Motions  for  informations ;  it  is  my 
want  of  knowledge  of  the  technical  terms  of 
the  law  made  me  express  myself  so. 

Do  you  expect  vour  attorney  here  to-day  ? 
—He  has  attendea  constantly  till  to-day. 

Who  carried  on  the  business  on  the  other 
side  ? — ^The  solicitor  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
Mf.  Everest        [Captain  Baillie  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Eoertft  called  in. 

I  beg  to  know  whether  you  carried  on  any 
prosecution  iwainst  Mr.  Baillie,  in  Westmin- 
ster-hall i—xes. 

Of  what  nature;  and  at  whose  suit? — I 
was  employed  by  several  individiuds  at  the 
Hospital  to  prosecute  captain  Baillie  for  a 
libel;  they  were,  Mr.  HicKS,  Mr.  Stuart,  Mr. 
Ibbetson,  Mr.  Mvlne,  and  Mr.  Godby,  on 
their  separate  and  private .  accounts :  it  was 
some  time  before  I  received  any- farther  or- 
deiB;  I  think^  at  last,  the  comimltee  of  en- 
quiry on  captam  Baillie's  book,  called  me  in, 
and  I  received  orders  from  the  directors  to 
take  the  necessary  steps,  on  their  part,  to  pro- 
secute captain  Qaillie. 

When  you  were  called  in  by  this  commit- 
tee^ did  they  direct  you  to  prosecute  captain 
Baillie  in  their  name,  as  a  committee,  or  as  a 
court  of  directors,  or  a  seneral  court? — I  un- 
derstood I  was  to  take  the  necessaiy  steps  on 
the  part  of  the  directors;  the  necessary  affi- 
davits were  prepared,  and  the  rule  made,  to 
shew  cause  why  informations  should  not  be 
filed. 

In  the  name  of  any  person,  individuaUy,  or 
by  the  court  of  directors?—-!  first  received 


orders  firom  individuals,  and  then  at  the  com-- 
mittee  of  enquiry. 

When  you  did  move  to  shew  cause^  did  you 
do  it  in  the  name  of  any  person,  individually, 
or  on  the  part  of  the  board  or  directors? — 
One  in  the  name  of  the  court  of  directors; 
the  others  on  the  part  of  the  individuals  I 
have  mentioned.  The  rule  was,  why  an  in- 
formation or  informations  should  not  be  filed ;. 
I  believe  an  information  only  was  intended  to 
be  supported. 

At  whose  expence  was  that  carried  on  ? — 
The  expence  has  not  been  paid ;  captain  Bail- 
lie's  expences  have  been  paid  out  of  the 
pocket  of  Mr.  Stuart,  Mr.  Hicks,  Mr.  Godby, 
and  Mr.  Cooke,  &c. 

Your  part  of  the  business,  at  whose  ez- 

rmce  was  that  carried  on  ? — ^I  conceive  that 
am  to  be  paid  by  the  individuals  that'  em^ 
ployed  me. 

Was  there  any  thine  about  who  was  to  pay 
it  ? — I  wrote  to  the  ooard  of  directors,  the 
17th  of  October.  I  think  it  was.  I  was  called 
upon,  and  askea  if  I  looked  to  the  Hospital 
for  payment;  I  was  told  I  was  not  to  look  to 
the  Hospital  for  payment,  but  to  the  indivi- 
duals that  employed  me. 

[Mr.  Everest  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Lefevre  called  in. 

I  be^  he  may  be  asked,  whether  he  knows 
any  thins  of  prosecutions  carried  on  against 
Mr.  Bulfie,  or  any  steps  taken  to  engage  per- 
sons to  carry  on  those  prosecutions?-— I  will 
begin,  if  your  lordships  please,  and  relate  the 
whole.  About  the  8th  or  9th  of  January.  I 
was  in  company  with  the  Rev.  Mr.  Cooke, 
who  read  to  me  a  part  of  a  letter  he  said  he 
had  received  firom  the  steward  of  the  Hos- 
pital, the  contents  were.  That  the  contracting 
Dutchers  were  cast  for  the  sevcaral  frauds  they 
had  been  accused  of  at  Guildhall ;  and  after 
the  tiial  was  over,  the  said  steward,  and  the 
rest  of  his  friends,  which  I  suppose  were  the 
landmen,  enjoyed  themselves  with  a  very 
good  dinner,  and  a  bottle  of  good  wine,  while 
Sie  lieutenant  governor  and  ms  party  sneaked 
ofi*  like  a  parcel  of  dirty  dogs. 

Here  a  short  conversation  took  place,  whe- 
ther the  witness  should  he  permitted  to  pro- 
ceed in  his  narrative,  or  answer  to  such  ques- 
tions as  might  be  propounded.  Agreed,  that 
he  should  confine  himself  to  answers  only. 
Witness  called  in. 

I  desire  Mr.  Lefevre  will  answer  what  he 
knows  relating  to  steps  taken  to  induce  per- 
sons to  bring  about  these  prosecutions  against 
captain  BaiSie? — ^As  to  what  could  induce 
them,  it  is  impossible  for  me  to  say. 

If  Mr.  Lefevre  will  be  so  sood  as  to  answer 
what  stejjs  he  is  acquainted  with  which  werr 
taken  to  induce  any  gentlemen  to  prosecute 
captain  Baillie  ? — ^I  should  suppose  tney  did  it 
merelv  fi^m  dislike  to  captain  BulUe. 

Had  you  any  conversations  with  Mr.  Codke^ 
relative  to  any  prosecutions  against  captain 


'fSr)         ftipeeimg  ike  Ro^  HoipUd  Mi  Gremmf^         A.D.177& 


[898 


BttUie? — ^IwasgQD^  to  that;  I  was  going 
to  mentMMi  it  as  it  wib  told  me  by  the  Rev. 
Mr.  CodDe ;  I  was  going  to  relate  from  the 
bemmine  of  Mr.  Cooke's  discourse  to  the  end. 
The  ouy  thing  wanted  is^  that  you  will  re- 
late that  Dart  that  concerns  an  attemfyt  to  in- 
duce anybody  to  prosecute  caotain  Baillie? — 
I  ^BOoUect,  alter  captain  Baillie's  book  came 
out,  Mr.  Cooke  informed  me,  that  lord  Sand- 
wich had  said,  that  any  person  that  should  be 
seen  to  keep  company  with  captain  Baillie, 
should  have  a  stop  put  to  his  preferment  for 
cver. 

[Mr.  Lefevre  interrupted  by  several  noble 
loras,  and  ordered  to  withdraw.3    . 

While  the  witness,  Mr.  Lefevre,  was  giving 
his  testimony,  Ibrd  Denbigh,  who  at  just 
within  the  biur,  near  the  witness,  aaid,  in  a  low 
voice,  two  or  three  times  to  hini^  that  he 
ahouhl  confoie  himself  to  the  question;  if  he 
did  not,  be  must  interrupt  him.  The  witness 
not  attending  immediately  to  what  his  lord- 
ship said,  he  rose  to  olyect  to  receiving  any 
kind  of  evidence,  but  what  contained  an  an- 
swer to  the  question  put  by  the  House. 

The  Duke  of  Riekmond  rose  to  complain  of 
the  veiy  disorderly  conduct  of  the  noble  lord, 
who  went  down  to  the  bar,  and  endeavoured 
to  intimidate  a  witness  delivering  his  testi- 
mony upon  oath. 

The  Earl  of  Denbigh  acknowledged,  that 
he  told  the  witness  that  he  would  mtemipt 
him.  if  he  deviated  from  the  question. 

The  Duke  of  Richmond  replied,  that  it  was 
lughly  improper  and  indecent,  to  offer  to  di- 
rect a  witness,  and  intimidate  him,  by  holding 
a  private  conversation  with  him;  tiiat  no 
noble  lord  had  a  right  to  put  a  question,  as  an 
individual,  to  an^  person  under  examination 
at  the  bar ;  and^  if  the  noble  lord  did  not  de- 
sist, and  immediately  retract,  he  would,  for 
the  honour  of  the  House,  and  the  order  and 
decency  of  their  lordships'  proceedings,  fiame 
a  question,  and  t^e  the  sense  of  the  House 
upon  it. 

After  a  warm  altercation  between  the  two 
noble  lords,  and  sevend  direct  contradictions, 
in  which  the  duke  of  Richmond  affirmed  po- 
sitively, that  the  noble  lord  had  endeavoured 
to  intimidate  the  witness ;  and  from,  what  he 
said  in  his  defence,  had  conferaed  the  dis- 
oideriy  conduct  imputed  to  him. 

The  Lord  Chancellor  rose,  and  said  it  was 
very  true,  that  every  question .  should  come 
through  the  medium  or  the  chair ;  that  that 
form  was,  however,  irequentlv  dispensed  with, 
for  the  sreater  dispatch  of  business ;  but  if 
the  noble  duke  insisted  upon  adhering  to 
strict  order,  he  was  certainly  rieht. 

The  Earl  of  Denbigh  said,  that  was  what 
he  meant  to  do ;  that  it  was  permitted  every 
dav ;  and  that  so  for .  from  mtimichiting,  be 
oiuy  wished  to  wevent  trouble. 

The  Duke  ofuiekmond  replied,  the  question 
staled  by  the  noble  and  learned  lord,  and  the 
JBoUecm  who  spoke  last,  was  veiy  difierent 


to  Ae  species  of  disorder  he  complained  of 
When  a  noble  lord  propounds  a  question,  in 
the  manner  described,  he  did  it  openlv,  and 
with  an  audible  voice,  so  that  every  kud  pre- 
sent misht  hear  it  It  was  never  therefore 
imaeineo,  that  because  the  question  was  <h- 
rectJy  answered  from  the  bar,  that,  dispensing 
with  the  riffht  orders  of  the  House,  in  not  in- 
sisting to  nave  the  question  agiin  repeated 
from  the  chair,  or  the  wooludc,  left  any 
noble  lord  at  liberty  to  go  down  to  the  Imr,  to 
hold  a  private  conversation  with  a  witness,  in 
order  to  intimidate  him. 

The  Earl  of  fhaterfield  said,  that  the  pre^ 
sent  beinft  an  enquiry  into  the  conduct  of  the 
noble  ford,  whose  name  was  mentioned  hav- 
ing made  use  of  such  an  expression,  that 
hearsay  was  no  evidence,  and  that  conse- 
•quently  it  was  inadmissible,  and  the  witness 
ought  to  be  restrained  from  mentioning  lord 
Sandwich's  name. 

Here  a  very  warm  debate  commenced  on 
two  grounds.  First,  whether  the  present  en- 
quiry could  be  properly  considered  as  an  en- 
(miry  into  the  conduct  of  loid  Saiidwich ;  and 
if  it  coqfd,  whether  hearsay  evidence  of  what 
the  witness  heard  Cooke  say  that  loid  Smd- 
wich  told  him,  was  admissible  evidence  in  a 
court  of  justice. 

The  first  of  those  questions  was  debated  for 
upwards  of  an  hour.  The  affirmative  was 
contended  for  by  the  Lord  Chancellor,  and 
the  lords  ManAeld,  Bathurst,  Chesterfield, 
and  Dudley;  the  negative,  by  the  duke  of 
Richmond  and  lord  Cunden,  mixed  with  their 
question  of  fact  and  the  general  supposed 
understanding  or  the  House,  the  question  of 
the  law  forced  itself  into  discussion.  At 
length  iord  Mansfield  framed  a  question,  m 
order,  he  said,  to  take  the  sense  ot  the  House 
to  the  following  effect : 

'^That  it  be  resolved,  that  the  name  of 
John  earl  Sandwich  be  not  mentioned  by  the 
witness  at  the  bar,  in  his  eyidence  of  a  con- 
versation with  any  other  person,  of  what  the 
said  person  informed  him  that  the  said  earl 
had  said.''  To  which  the  duke  of  Richmond 
moved  an  amendment,  by  adding  the  words, 
^  in  order  to  intimidate  said  witness.'' 

As  soon  as  this  motion  was  handed  to  the 
,  table,  a  new  and  most  important  d^te  re- 
commenced. 

The  Earl  of  Mantfield  contended,  that  it 
was  repugnant  to  every  principle  of  law,  to 
.admit  evidence  upon  hearsay,  which,  in  its 
consequences,  might  affect  a  third  person; 
that  certainly,  though  he  did  not  consider  the 
present  enquiry  to  be  specifically  directed 
agaiast  lord  Suidwich,  yet  only  considering, 
him  as  one  person  charged  among  many 
others,  it  was  well  known  uiat  in  proceed!^ 
upon  indictments,  where  several  persons 
were  included  in  it,  no  evidence  of  a  criminal 
act  of  any  one  of  the  parties  was  ever  received 
as  evidence  against  another.  Lord  Sandwich 
and  Mr.  Cooke  stood  in  exactiy  the  same 
predicament  of  persons  so  indicted, 


li^] 


18  GEOBGE  ni.  The  Casi  f^Ca^am  Thmfu  B^iUie^         [8M 


^uently  tiolhmje  th^t  Cooke  SBid  ougbt  to  be 
ndnuUjBd  «9  evflkioce  spiostlord  Sandwich* 

tmd  Camden  ackoowledgod  the  pnacifKle 
laid  down  by  the  letmied  lora;  but  taking  vp 
the  matter  upon  the  noble  lord's  own  ground, 
allowing  that  lord  Sandwich  and  Mr.  Cooke 
were  before  the  House  in  the  character  <^  cri- 
minals, the  learned  lord  must  acknowledge 
that  they  were  not  tryine  for  the  same  offence, 
nor  were  their  cases  at  £ul  alike.  Mr.  Cooke 
might  be  convicted  of  the  charse  now  made, 
irould  tlttt  affect  lord  Sandwich  r  God  forbid ! 
What  Cooke  said,  was  no  evidence  against 
IcKFd  Sandwich,  or  any  person  on  earth  but 
himself.  Suppose  lord  Sandwich  never  made 
use  of  any  suoi  expression,  wluch  he  hoped 
and  believed  might  turn  out  to  be  the  truth, 
would  it  not  be  cruel  to  condemn  the  noble 
lord,  not  for  what  he  said,  but  merely  because 
another  person  had  slandered  him ;  the  very 
slander  was  an  act  of  a  criminal  nature  i^nst 
the  honour  and  character  of  the  noUe  lord, 
and  was  little  connected  in  one  point  of  view 
with  the  pvesent  enquiry.  In  another,  so  hi 
to  be  sure  as  those  discourses  tended  to  inti- 
midate and  prevent  reformation  and  justice, 
^y  might  Aimish  just  grounds  of  further 
proceeding  aoinst  Cooke.  But  he  would 
meet  the  noble  lord  fairly  upon  the  point  of 
law  and  analogy  to  the  proceedings  on  indict- 
ments, which  ne  seemed  so  much  to  rely 
upon.  liord  Sandwich  mi§^ht  appear  to  have 
wen  guilty  of  certain  acts  ot  mismanagement, 
as  first  oommiasioner  of  the  Admiralty,  in  the 
exerciae  of  directing  the  affiurs  of  the  Hospi- 
taiy  or  of  none.  So  miafat  Mr.  Cooke,  as  im- 
l^roperly  interfering,  and  by  abusing  lus  func- 
tion, or  he  might  not.  One  of  them  might 
be  proved  innocent,  and  not  the  other,  conse- 
4|uently  the  case  Btfl^  by  the  learned  lord  did 
not  applv.  But  he  would  put  a  case  to  the 
leacoed  lotd,  which  must  apply.  Supaosing 
that  aevtial  persons  had  been  included  m  the 
same  indictaMbt,  for  sevei»l  specific  offences^ 
might  aotevideticc  be  competently  given  and 
ffieeived  of  a  specific  criminal  act,  connnitled 
by  one  of  the  parties,  though  it  amounted  to 
hteaay  only  reapecting  another  charged  with 
a  different  species  of  ottenee?  Most  certainly; 
the  learned  k>rd  knew  it  would  not  serve  to 
convict  that  other  person  i^  another  ofience, 
because  hei^y  was  no  evidence,  and  could 
only  be  admissible  against  the  par^  on  whom 
the  ofienee  was  chaiged. 

The  Lard  Chancellor  asade  two  or  thi«e 
y&f  long  speeches  in  the  above  debate,  in 
wmok  ha  chiefly  laboured  to  establish  the  two 
Mlowing  propositjons  i 

IhU  the  cBQiniY  amounted  lo  a  speciic 
diaige  against  igid  Sandwkh;  and  if  taken 
aaagnnialchaqipeagMnstalltheae  cpncehi- 
4ld«a  the  taaoagementaf  Oreenwieh  Uospi^d, 
twgtimhr  part  of  it  applied  ganmHy 
'  avarypataan  cancerned;  conwquaM- 


Jbr»  whalhirtfae  enwnry  waa«a«al  or  indM- 
JbaiHy  idileeted^  the  evedelare  was  i^ 
^mm,wmf  pan  of  tlw  testimaiiy  given  «t 


Ihe  bar,  was  evidenoa  of  misconduct  of  lord 
Saodwieh;  or  if  it  was  not,  it  affected  him  a» 
ane  of  the  parties  accused* 

[His  lordship's  pardon  is  asked,  if  bi$ 
mesning  be  here  mia-atated  or  mis-conceived ; 
for  there  is  every  rational  ground  to  suppose 
such  doctrine  diametncally  opposite  to  the 
whole  code  of  English  jurisprudence,  and  cour 
sequently  foreign  from  the  noble  lord's  senti- 
ments.] 

To  prove  his  first  proposition,  be  quoted- 
capt.  Baillie's  book  on  the  table>  which  char;^ 
ed  lord  Sandwich,  in  direct  terms,  with  cor- 
ruptioD.  To  prove  the  second,  he  presumed 
that  the  permitting  tlK>se  mismanagements  to 
continue,  amounted  to  a  failure  of  duty,  in 
not  putting  a  stop  to  them ;  and  of  course,  if 
proved^  would  ultimately  reach  the  noble 
lord. 

The  Earl  of  Snndwich  said,  he  had  been 
charged  with  corruption ;  that  he  looked  upon 
the  enquiry  as  totally  personal  against  hnn ; 
that  he  wished  the  witness  might  be  per- 
mitted to  proceed,  because  he  was  consctoua 
of  the  injure  and  falsity  of  the  char|^ ;  but 
he  should  be  sorry  that  any  convemenceor 
deare  of  his  should  be  preferred  to  the  order 
and  estabhshed  mode  of  proceeding  in  that 
House. 

Lord  Camden  again  rose,  and  in  a  most  aUe, 
correct,  and  learned  speech,  answered  every 
thing  material  which  had  been  urged  on  the 
other  side.  He  sud,  the  present  motion,  if 
carried,  would  amount  to  a  real  dissolution  of 
the  Committee,  even  upon  the  argum^ats  of 
Uie  noble  lords  who  framed  and  supported  it. 
llie  present,  say  the  noble  lords,  is  an  enquiry 
into  the  conduct  of  the  earl  of  Sandwich, 
charing  him  with  manifest  corruption  in  the 
exercise  of  a  pubhc  trust  of  very  mreat  conse* 
ouence.  What  will  be  the  manitest  effect  of 
tnis  motion?  that  you  may  sit  here  till  the 
dog-^ys,  to  hear  the  examination  of  wit- 
nesees,  to  hear  complaints  and  chaiges  made 
against  any  person,  or  every  person,  but  the 
conduct  of  tne  noble  lord  into  whicn  you  ase 
convened  to  enquire.  I  only  repeat  this,  to 
shew  the  manifest  absurdities  people  are  drove 
to  adopt,  when  they  want  to  effect  purpoaea 
upon  principles  which  directly  make  againat 
them;  for  I  am  perfectly  satisfied  that  the 
pmsent  enquiry  contains  no  single  specific 
charge  against  any  man,  so  as  to  produce  con- 
vktion  or  condemnation.  The  event  of  it,  I 
acknowledge,  may  afford  matter  Pfopet  to 
found  a  criminal  proceeding  upon;  out  in  the 
first  instsnce,  I  afBrm  as  a  member  of  this 
House,  and  a  lawyer,  that  il  cannot  produce 
stkT  issue,  wht^  may  inunedialely  afEect 
either  the  noble  loid  or  any  otiier  of  the 
tiartiesl 

fiktc!^anif  itdid,  I  will  foUow  that  aaser- 
linn  with  anoliier,  that  evidsnoe  of  what  ano- 
ther person  said  thact  kid  Sandwich  lakl,  am 
jufermch  narafbetthatnoUe  lord  in  the 
mtHdUmki  dnipm.  U  is  but  heanm  av>. 
at  the  hmx.   It  «a|i  oiilf  aiSact  Mki 


a 


!U]      regpecting  the  Ro^  Hospital  at  Greemoich.         A.  D*  1778* 


[242 


if  not  disproved ;   and  if  ten  or  ten 

d  witnesses,  one  after  another,  came 

tovDsr  lordships'  bar,  to  con&rm  the  testi- 

acDTof  what  Mr.  Lefevre  heard  Mr.  Cooke 

p'thst  lord    Sandwich   had  told  him,  it 

vaii,  it  could  not  wdgh  a  feather  with  your 

Mips.   If  it  could  not,  the  conclusion  is 

ftKtnd  inevitable,  that  the  mentioning  lord 

Sodwkh's  name,  as  it  cannot  affect  in  the 

I  SHt remote  degree  that  noble  lord,  so  it  is 

I  Mztely  necessary  that  his  lordship's  name 

Mdbe  mentioned,  as  directly  and  circum- 

AotklJrnecessary  to  prmx  the  means  of  in- 

taidition  made  use  of^by  Cooke,  to  deter  the 

viliKss  from  shewing  anv  countenance  to 

apt  Bailiie.    Once  for  all,  I  say,  truth  and 

^itice  oblige  your  lordships  to  believe  the 

ttiblekdi  innocent  of  the  expressions  imputed 

to  htm;  jou  are  bound  as  judges  to  believe 

lis  brd^ip  innocent,  till  you  have  receiv- 

idpwf  to  the  contrary,  and  h^eard  his  de- 

|face:  and  having  no  proof  to  the  contrary, 

liDthe  evidence  objected  to,  you  have  no 

Rhtwhilfcver  to  refuse  a  species  of  evidence, 

Iwly  applicable  and  exclusively  to  another 

IjRoa,  wnich  will  certainly  be  the  case  should 

[Kpresent  motion  be  carried. 

1^  Tw  question  was  put,  and  carried  by  a  raa^ 

|«tycf46to  10. 

Tfc  Diike  of  Richmond  moved,  that  the 
teolntbn  now  carried,  be  read  and  delivered 
>>tbe  witness,  that  he  be  informed,  that  he 
toy  answCT  any  question,«so  that  he  does  not 
■HiticDlbe  name  of  the  earl  of  Sandwich. 
This  was  strongly  opposed,  as  unnecessary 
Nonprecedent^;  the  reading  of  the  mo- 
was  sufficient,  and  no  instance  was  ever 
mof  a  witness  at  the  bar  being  permitted 
,  hwe  any  of  the  proceedings  of  the  House 
JJ^posbession.  A  very  interesting  debate 
F*M>  and  the  noble  duke*s  motion  was  ne- 
PM  by  a  majority  of  44  to  15. 
^j^Hness  called  in,  and  the  two  last  ques- 
wteaod  answers  read.] 

Clerk  reads. 

*  Had  you  any  conversation  with  the  rev. 
*•  Cooke,  teldtive  to  any  prosecutions 
JPasicipt Bailiie?*' — I  was  gomgtothat; 
*•»  going  to  mention  it,  as  it  was  told  me 
pw re\'.  Mr.  Cooke ;  I  was  coing  to  relate 
^theb4^inningof  Mri  Cooke's  discourse 
»  UK  end. 

*Tbe  only  thing  wanted  is,  that  you  will 
■™«tbal  part  that  concerns  an  attempt  to 
■«^  any  body  to  prosecute  capt  Bailiie  ?" 
"^i  recolleci  after  capt,  Baillie's  book  came 
?^}t.  Cooke  informed  me  that  my  lord 
?«^  bd  said,  tliat  any  person  that 
**j!u  be  j-een  to  keep  company  with  captain. 
**j^  sliouid  have  a  stop  put  io  his  prefer- 
■^^  'OT  ever. 

^e  following  Resolution  was  also  read  to 
««^itnts8. 


/T^  it  be  resolved,  that  the 

yr.     ^^  Svidwich  be  mi  mei 
^^L  XXL 


name  of 
mexUioQed  by 


I 


the  witness  at  the  bar,  in  his  evidence  of  a 
conversation  with  any  other  person,  of  what 
the  said  person  informed  him,  that  the  said 
earl  had  said,  in  order  to  intimidate  the  said 
witness." 

That  Mr.  Lefevre  may  be  told,  that  if  any 
questions  are  asked  him  which  he  cannot  an- 
swer  without  going  contrary  to  tliat  resolu- 
tion, he  must  not  make  any  answer. 

Whether  he  received  any  intimidations  from 
any  person  relative  to  giving  support  to  capt. 
Bailiie? — A  number,  my  lords;  I  may  say 
numberless.  , 

Fron^  whom  ? — From  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke. 

What  were  those  intimidations  ?— -Frequent- 
ly he  told  me,  if  I  was  to  be  seen  in  company 
with  capt.  Bailiie,  or  had  any  correspondence 
with  him,  an  end  would  be  put  to  my  prefer- 
ment. I  was  going  out  lieutenant  m  the 
America;  he  came  to  my  house  and  said  to 
me,  I  find  you  keep  company  with  capt.  BaiU 
lie,  and  he  swore  by  his  Maker,  there  would 
be  an  end  put  to  my  preferment  if  I  did  not 
desist. 

Wjiat  were  the  words  he  made  use  of? — By 
God  your  preferment  will  be  stopt,  if  you  per- 
sist any  longer. 

Did  any  conversation  pass  between  Mr. 
Cooke  and  you,  relative  to  any  encourage- 
ment from  Mr.  Cooke,  to  any  person  to  pro- 
secute capt.  Bailiie?— No  encouragement  to 
prosecute  him,  only  to  have  nQthing  at  all  to 
do  with  him. 

Did 'you  hear  him  make  use  of  such  expres- 
sions of  intimidation  to  any  others  ? — ^To  my 
father,  who  was  then  a  dying  man ;  my  fa- 
ther told  capt.  Bailiie  there  was  mischief 
against  him,  and  bid  him  be  on  his  guard- 

Did  your  father  belong  to  the  Hospital } — 
He  did. 

You  were  intimidated  several  times  ? — ^Fre- 
quently. 

By  any  other  person  than  Mr.  Cooke  ? — ^No 
others. 

When  was  the  last  time  he  made  one  of 
these  declarations  ?— April,  1778. 

When  did  vou  relate  this  conversation  ?-^ 
To  my  father  immediately. 

When  to  other  people  ? — Some  part  of  the 
conversation  long  before  to  captain  Bailiie; 
this  I  spoke  of  particularly  before  the  ship 
sailed. 

When  did  you  make  this  conversation  of 
Mr.  Cooke's  public.^ — ^Immediately. 

To  whom  ? — Captain  Bailiie  and  mv  father. 
.  Any  body  else? — I  cannqt  jecollect  any- 
body else. 

Had  you  any  employment  in  the  Hospital  ?  • 
— ^None. 

How  were  you  intimidated  ? — I  was  a  lieu- 
tenant in  the  navy. 

You  said,  Mr.  Cooke  told  you  your  promo- 
tion would  be  stopt  N— He  did. 

Did  he  say  in  what  manner  it  would  be 
stopped? — He  said  an  entire  stop  would  be 
put  to  my  preferment,  and  that  it  would  be 
the  entire  ruin  of  my  father  and  family,  if  I 

R 


eiS] 


18  GEORGE  m.         The  Case  of  Captain  Thm^  SafOk,         [944 


w«s  ever  seen  to  keep  company  with  captain 
Baillie,  or  to  correspond  wiUi  hiin. 

How  was  a  stop  |o  be  put  to  your  prefer- 
jnent? — By  my  remaining  a  lieutenant  as  I 
tras,  I  suppose. 

Did  Mr.  Cooke  say  he  had  any  authority  for 
sayins,  any  person  would  be  marked  that  con- 
versed with  capt.  Baillie?— He  did  say  he  had 
autliority  for  saying  so. 

I  desire  he  may  be  asked  what  authority 
be  had  for  saying  so?— He  told  me  he  had  it 
(rem  a  nobleman  high  in  oftce. 

What  nobleman  ?     [Ordered  to  withdraw.] 

Here  a  very  warm  debate  ensued:  The 
£arl  of  Sandwich  saicL  he  wished  most  heartily 
that  the  resolution  nad  not  been  made ;  and 
if  there  was  any  way  of  getting  rid  of  it,  he 
should  be  e.ttremely  glad  to  do  it.  He  com- 
plained greatly  of  the  conduct  of  noble  lords 
on  the  other  side^  who,  in  order  to  harass  and 
tire  the  House,  started  debates  upon  every 
trifling  occasion.  They  wished,  he  said,  to 
put  the  enquiry  off  till  the  very  close  of  the 
session,  to  preclude  him  from  a  defence ;  and 
lamented,  that  the  enquiry  had  not  at  the  be- 
ginning been  so  constituted,  as  to  have  ad- 
mitted him  to  make  his  defence  to  every  dif- 
ftrent  species  of  charge,  as  they  were  brought 
forward. 

\  The  Duke  of  IRicbmond  disclaimed  any  in- 
^ntion  of  procrastination  or  delay;  observed, 
that  it  was  not  a  pleasant  task  on  his  part : 
that  the  charge  of  delay  lay  much  more  justly 
ajgainstthe  noble  earl  and  his  friends,  than 
on  those  at  his  side  of  the  House ;  he  acknow- 
ledged indeed,  that  he  had  fortunately  laid  a 
temptation,  which  ihev  had  caught  at;  and 
that  they  now  found  they  were  in  a  situation 
ffom  which  they  could  not  e.xtricate  them- 
selves ;  that  the  noble  lord's  affected  sorrow 
might  easily  be  accoimted  for ;  he  voted  for 
the  question,  on  the  division,  when,  he  might 
have  prevented  it ;  he  now  lamented  that  it 
hiad  ever  passed,  and  recommended  to  have  it 
rescinded,  or  dispensed  with,  when  he  knew, 
by  the  orders  of  the  House,  that  it  was  totaUly 
impracticable.  Hb  grace  spoke  for  some  time 
i^  this  strain,  and  vras  very  severe  on  the  no- 
ble e^rl.  A  very  considerable  pause  now  en- 
sued, several  methods  were  proposed  to  get 
rid  of  the  difficulty ;  the  witness  was  at  length 
called  in. 

Asked,  Who  was  the  nobleman  mentioned 
by  Mr.  Cooke? — ^Aml  to  mention  the  noble- 
man's name? 

He  must  read  the  resolution. — That  de- 
prives me. 

Whether  he  may  name  the  noble  lord  or 
npt  ?  (The  Resolution  re^  to  the  witness.) 
You  are  to  answer  what  nobleman  ? — I  shoukl 
be  sony  to  fall  under  any  censure  of  the 
House,  but  that  resolution  entirely  prevents 
me  from  mentioning  the  nobleman. 

Will  you  be  so  good  as  to  tell  the  House 
what  other  intimidations  passed  from  Mr. 
Cipoke  to  you,  or  whether. ypu  took  any  op- 


portunity of  eomplaining  to  any  person  when 
you  was  so  intimidated  ? — ^Last  May  I  made 
It  my  business  to  £o  to  the  Admiralty ;  I  went 
four  mornings  with  intent  to  see  a  noble  lord,'' 
to  tell  him  01  Mr.  Cooke's  behaviour;  I  could 
not  see  that  noble  lord ;  I  was  denied  him 
frequently,  and  told  that  the  noble  lord  would 
see  nobody.  I  went  the  next  morning  into 
the  captains'  room,  the  servant  was  £sixed 
to  go  up  to  the  noble  lord,  but  I  could  not  see 
him  that  mornine;  I  went  then  to  endeavour 
to  see  Mr.  Stephens  two  or  three  moniingi^ 
and  waited  from  two  or  three  o'clock  till  aitec 
^ve,  but  could  not  see  Mr.  Stephens. 

Did  any  thing  pass  between  you  and  Mc* 
Cooke,  about  these  af&drs  coming  into  |^aili|-. 
ment? — ^Yes,  about  the  middle  of  June,  177r« 
I  spoke  to  Mr.  Cooke  about  his  speaking 
something  disrespectful  of  the  lieutenant* 
governor;  I  said  these  affairs  might  QOinii 
mto  parliament ;  he  seemed  to  catch  at  tbal^ 
and  said,  a  noble  lord  would  take  care  and  piiit 
captain  BaiUie  out  of  his  office  before  waJt 
should  be. 

Whether  he  is  to  name  that  noble  ]ord?<^-« 
I  am  not  at  liberty  to  mention  that. 

Did  he  mention  what  noble  lord  would  put 
him  out  of  his  office  ? — He  did  mention  him. 

I  desire  he  may  answer  who  it  was? — Have 
I  a  right  to  answer  while  that  resolution  is  in 
being? 

Not  against  the  resolution;  I  wish  Mr.  Le« 
fevre  would  be  correct  in  repeating  to  th^ 
House,  the  substance  of  what  passed  Oetweea 
I^r.  Cooke  and  him  about  turning  captain 
Buillie  out,  rather  than  it  should  come  befora 
parliament? — As  I  mentioned  before,  in  t|ie 
middle  of  June,  1777,  as  we  were  talkipg  of 
the  affair^  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  he  took  oc- 
casion to  mention  captain  ^ailUe's  name ;  I 
bid  him  desist;  I  said  perhaps  the  affiiirs  of 
Greenwich  Hospital  might  come  into  narliai- 
ment ;  he  seeiped  to  catch  at  that,  ana  said, 
a  noble  lord  would  take  care  he  Should  noi 
do  that,  he  should  be  turned  out  of  his  office 
first.  ' 

Did  any  thing  more  pass  between  yoa  and 
him  on  that  particular  sul^t? — ^Not  on  tbpi 
particular  subject 

Did  any  thing  else  pass,  on  any  other  sub- 
ject, relating  to  Greenwich  Hospital  ?— -J 
summoned  before  the  committer  at 
wich  Hospital ;  Mr.  Cooke  stood  up  nnd 
sisted  upon  it  that  I  should  not  say  one  word ; 
and  Mr.  Barker,  the  chairman,  I  believe,  bid. 
mc  CO  out,  and  said  that  I  should  not  s«^  a 
woro. 

Did  any  thing  pass  relaUve  to  any  other 
matter  of  Greenwich  Hospital  ?-r-No  other  in 
particular. 

Are  you  ^  lieutenant  in  the  service?— I 
not. 

When   did  you  leave  the  service  ?- 
May ;  I  guitted  it  entirely  from  the  threats  K 
received  from  Mr.  Cooke. 

What  threats?—- That  a  stop  should  be  put 
to  niy  proffiotioiv  because  I  spoke  to  eaptola. 


ft$]         reipecHng  iht  Royal  Hospital  at  GreetvoouA.        A.  D.  177S. 


[246 


^;  Itil&MIWDotkiiowthatlhadacted 
ivrong  m  anj  particular,  and  therefore  I  shouM 

H<H^  Ugh  ^efe  Vdit  in  (he  list  of  lieiite- 
flttiuf^  Mlk^  &ete  nught  be  3  or  300 

'  wfaBftifioe  were  ymk-made  a  lieutenant?— 
CMMr,  1775. 

y^htA  did  tou  qtdt?— November,  1778. 

Wto^fh^  h  it  common  to  promote  lieute- 
ihsfe^  im)^  they  merit  it  by  their  own  gal- 
hlWr^P*J  never  said  I  expected  preferment; 
wd^wAl  expect  to  meet  with  it,  from  what 
^vaStOld  tncf. 

BM  of  Sandmich,  Whettier  you  recollect 
a  co&vehKtiioh  betweeh  ydu  and  me  at  Port^ 
Bouth  ?  And  whether  you  did  not  apply  fur- 
Iherf— ^Tcs,  I  did;  to  know  whether  what 
Mr.  Cooke  told  die  was  true  or  no ;  and  I 
iKNigbt^  fh)m  what  you^  lordship  said,  it  was 
Me. 

Wbcihct  yotir  ouitting  the  service  was  not 
th  act  of  your  own  r — It  was ;  fifom  the  threats 
tf  flr.  Cdoke,  ta&  the  answer  I  received  fifom 
your  lordship. 

*  Whether  you  were  ever  threatened  by  me  ? 
—I  never  said  1  was  threatened  by  your  lord- 
dim. 

^.  When  you  met  the  noble  lord,  what  pre- 
famefil tfid  you  ask  for? — ^Not  any  in  parti- 
War;  I  believe' I  asked  him  to  consider  me, 
if  any  preferment  was  going  forward,  and  if  I 
^bsto  expect  any  further  preferment  from 
Hie  nc^le  lord. 

How  iot^  had  yoH  been  a  lieutenant  when 
llr.  Cooke  said  a  stop  should  be  put  to  your 
ifeHcfiucnt? — \  had  b^  a  lieutenant  two 
youi  and  a  hadf. 

*  Sfioutd  von  hafve  thought  of  qintting  the 
Afviodp  when  you  had  been  two  years  and  a 
WC  if  jou  had  not  been  told  that  you  should 
rteeC  With  no  preferment? — ^No,  I  should  itot; 
I  loved  the  service. 

You  were  made  a  lieutenant  in  1775? — 


And  jou  quitted  in  November,  1778  ?— Not 
^ited  the  service,  only  on  half-pay. 

In  October,  1776,  you  met  lord  Sandwich? 
—No,  I, did  not  mention  that  time;  I  said 
#beD  lus  lordship  was  at  Portsmouth ;  that 
was  last  year,  that  has  nothing  to  do  with 
1775,  or  1776. 

Ton  said,  ftom  the  conversation  between 
mrand  lord  Sandwich  at  Portsmouth,  you 
oelieved  that  what  Mr.  Cooke  said  was  true, 
that  a  stop  diould  be  put  to  your  preferment; 
pve  an  account  of^  that  conversation?— I 
asked  his  lordship,  if  I  was  to  expect  any  fur- 
Iber  preferment ;  his  lordship,  for  a  long  time^ 
OKufe;  no  answer  at  all ;  at  last,  I  think,  his 
lotdship  ssdd,  that  he  had  a  eood  opinion  of 
m^  but  that  if  I  stood  there  from  tnat  time 
to  tnat  time  twdvemonths,  I  should  get  no- 
f^uoutofluin. 

W^xmaX  all  he  sud  to  you?-— Ves;  that  I 
ttAAX  expect  no  other  answer. 

m  ssQr/tbat  the  only  thing  that  lord  l^d- 


wich  said  to  you  was.  th^t  he  had  a  very  good 
opinion  of  ^u,  butihat  if  you  st^d  there 
from  that  time  to  that  time  twelvemonths, 
you  should  get  nothing  out  of  him;  how  did 
you  understand  from  that,  that  he  did  not 
mean  to  prefer  you? — From  the  very  great 
indiflerence  widi  which  it  fell  from  him.  One 
circumstance  I  forgot  to  mention ;  prior  to 
this  discourse,  early  in  the  morning,  I  went 
on  board  of  the  yacht,  his  lordship  turned  his 
back  on  me,  aiid  went  down  into  the  cabin 
immediately;  this  was  the  same  morning, 
before  my  conversation  with  lord  Sandwich. 
I  went  on  board  the  America,  told  my  captain 
of  it,  and  mentioned  Mr.  Cooke's  converse 
tion ;  and  he  said,  did  I  not  tell  you^  that  that 
man  would  not  do  you,  or  any  body  else,  any 
good. 

How  long  might  it  be  after  you  asked,  the 
question,  before  nis  lordship  made  any  answer 
*atall? — I  believe  some  minutes;  for  I  fol- 
lowed my  lord  from  sir  Thomas  Pye*s  house, 
a  good  way  down  Portsmoutli. 

How  long  was  it?-rl  believe  a  quarter  of 
an  hour,  at  least. 

Whether  yo\i  solicited  the  First  I^rd  of  the 
Admiralty  frequently  before  this  ? — Several 
times ;  I  suppose  three  months  before. 

What  was  your  father? — ^A  lieutenant  in 
the  Hospital. 

One  of  the  complainants  with  captain  BaiU 
lie? — I  believe  he  was ;  I  hav^  heard  him  say 
he  should  certainly  assist  captain  Baillie,  that 
he  believed  he  \vas  an  honest  man. 

Had  you  received  any  answer  firom  lordf 
Sandwich? — ^Yes;  he  said  I  was  aver^young 
officer,  he  wished  me  success.  I  told  it  to  my 
friends,  and  they  said  there  was  no  hopes  of 
my  being  preferred. 

When  was  your  first  application  ?— My  first 
application  was  before  I  was  lieutenant  of  the 
America. 

After  jfin  w^re  lieutenant? — ^December, 
1777. 

What  answer  <fi'd  you  get  then  ? — ^Rather  a 
flattering  one. 

When  was  this  answer,  that  you  were  a 
voung  officer,  and  he  wished  you  success  ? — X 
believe  it  was  in  February,  1778. 

It  was  since  that,  that  you  saw  lord  Sand« 
wich  at  Portsmouth  ? — ^Yes. 

Since  that,  you  have  made  no  application 
at  all  ?— None. 

What  ship  were  you  in  at  that  time  ? — ^Tha 
Aqierica. 

Who  was  commander  ? — ^Lord  Longford, 

A  man  may  have  been  a  young  lieutenant 
and  have  been  a  long  time  at  sea;  what  age 
are  you  ?— Thirty-two. 

How  long  have  you  been  at  sea? — Twenty- 
two  years ;  I  went  to  sea  when  I  was  ten  years 
of  age. 

When  did  that  conversation  pass  between 
you  and  lord  Sandwich|  at  Portsmouth? — ^I 
believe  in  last  May. 

When  was  the  conversation  with  Mr. Cooke? 
-— BetweeaFebniaiy  and  April,  1778. 


S47] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Capiain  Thomas  BaiUier  [S48 


In  May,  you  saw  lord  Sandwich  at  Ports- 
mouth  ? — Yes. 

How  many  lieutenants  stood  on  the  list 
wlien  you  applied  to  lord  Sandwich  ? — Many ; 
perhaps  7  or  800;  or  perhaps  1,000. 

Though  vou  had  been  so  long  at  sea,  would 
you  have  felt  any  sort  of  inclination  to  have 
quitted,  supposing  you  had  thought  you  were 
in  a  likely  way  to  have  the  chance  with  other 
people  for  your  preferment? — I  never  should; 
other  people  know  I  never  should ;  it  was  an 
*  employment  that  I  loved. 

[Mr.  Lefevrc  ordered  to  withdraw.] 

The  House  adjourned  to  the  next  day. 


Wednesday,  April  21. 
Captain  Baillie  called  in. 

What  proceeding  he  took  in  consequence 
of  his  book ;  and  what  persons  he  laid  the 
complaints  of  Greenwich  Hospital  before  ? — 
Does  your  lordship  mean  in  regard  to  tlie 
printed  Case  of  Greenwich  Hospitiil  ? 

Tes. — When  I  had  prepared  the  printed 
Case,  I  thought  it  prudent,  nrst  to  lay  it  before 
the  First  Lord  of  the  Admiralty,  hoping  that 
he  would  pay  some  attention  to  the  com- 
plaints in  tnat  book,  as  it  is  called;  I  think 
tliat  was  on  the  7th  of  March  twelvemonth. 
It  lay  with  his  lordship  nine  or  ten  days  before 
I  attempted  to  make  any  fiirther  application ; 
then  I  waited  in  person  on  the  First  Ix)rd  of 
the  Admiralty,  hoping  he  would  give  me  some 
satisfaction,  and  redress  the  grievances  com- 
plained of.  He  did  not  pay  that  attention  to 
them  that  I  expected ;  ne  said  he  had  re- 
ceived a  particular  letter  from  me ;  I  told  his 
lordship  it  was  on  a  particular  occasion ;  and 
asked  his  commands  upon  it ;  he  said  he  had 
BO  commands  upon  it ;  I  thought  an  exami- 
nation was  likely  to  take  place,  sir  HughPal- 
liser  and  Mr.  Stephens  being  present;  and,  as 
I  had  no  witness,  I  made  a  now,  and  came 
away.  I  have  a  copy  of  that  letter. 
'  Is  it  not  on  the  table  ? — ^No ;  it  is  the  letter 
said  to  be  lost^  and  not  produceable  by  the 
Boble  lord  to  whom  it  was  addressed.  I 
thought  it  prudent  to  lay  it  privately  before 
his  lordship  first :  I  beg  the  permission  of  the 
House  to  have  that  letter  read. 

Clerk  reads  the  following  letter : 

«  To  the  Riffht  Honourable  the  Earl  of  Sand- 
wich ;  addressed  on  his  Majesty's  service. 

«  Royal  Hospital,  March  7th,  1778. 
''As  your  lordship  has  hitherto  been  dis- 
posed to  hear  only  one  side  of  the  aflkirs  of 
Greenwich  Hospital,  I  take  the  liberty  to  in- 
close, for  your  lordship's  consideration,  a  state 
of  facts,  which.  I  trust,  will  stimulate  your 
lordship  to  rearess  the  grievances  therein 
complained  of;  and  thereby  restore  me  to  my 
proper  command  in  the  Hospital,  of  which  I 
nave  been  deprived  by  a  combination  of  land- 
men, who,  if  they  had  any  right  to  a  footing 
in  the  Hospital,  can  have  no  pretence  to  per- 


vert and  depose  the  lawful  government  there- 
of. 

**  I  liave  the  honour  to  acquaint  your  lord* 
ship,  that  I  will  not  sit  down  contented  to  see 
the  men  cheated,  and  myself  insulted,  by 
priests,  clerks,  or  cdntractors.  I  think  it,  how- 
ever my  duty  to  forewarn  your  lordship,  that 
if  you  are  any  longer  deaf  to  reasonable  conv- 
plaints,  I  shall  put  this  effort  for  redress  into 
execution;  which  I  should  have  deferred  for  a 
more  seasonable  opportunity,  but  the  recent 
overbearing  conduct  of  the  faction  so  firequ^it- 
]y  alluded  to,  in  the  inclosed  Case,  has  con^ 
pelled  me  to  struggle  for  immediate  redress. 

**  I  would  not  nave  your  lordship  under- 
stand, that  I  mean  to  disturb  government  at 
this  critical  time,  by  applying  to  parliament; 
I  scorn  the  imputation  of  making  any  other 
appeal  than  to  the  body  of  the  conunistdoners 
and  governorsof  the  Hospital,  whose  boundeD 
duty  it  IS  to  hear  and  redress  the  grievances 
complained  of;  and  I  most  sincerely  lament 
that  an  establishment,  so  truly  popular  and 
great,  should  be  so  far  pervcrtca  as  to  force 
me  to  make  any  appeal. 

"  I  am,  my  lora,  your  lordship's  most  obe- 
dient, and  most  humble  servant, 

"  Thomas  Bail  Life."" 

Give  an  account  of  what  steps  were  taken  in 
consequence  of  this? — In  conscqiicnce  of  that 
letter  and  printed  Ca^^e,  instead  ol  any  exami- 
'nation  into  the  affairs  of  Greenwich  Hospital, 
there  was  a  complaint  set  on  fuut  against  me  z, 
a  number  of  the  officers  were  encouraged  to 
complain  of  it ;   I  did  not  know  that  I  had 

fiven  any  cause  of  complaint  against  me. 
he  printed  Case  was  brought  down  to  Green- 
wich Hospital ;  otherwise  1  should  have  wait- 
ed longer  for  his  lonlship*s  indulgence  than 
ten  days ;  perhaps  a  month,  or  perhaps  till 
now.  The  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  set  on  foot  a  com- 
plaint against  me ;  and  went  about  among  the 
ofRcers,  as  if  he  had  been  canvassing  for  votes 
at  an  election :  the  m^ority  of  the  naval  offi- 
cers did  not  complain;  nor  was  any  complaint 
made  an  act  of  the  council  of  the  house ;  it 
was  rather  a  kind  of  conspiracy;  I  don't  know 
what  to  call  it.  Another  complaint  was  set 
on  foot  against  captain  Baillie  at  the  board  of 
directors  that  met  with  more  success ;  that 
was  sent  in  form  to  the  lords  of  the  Admiralty. 
The  clerk  of  the  works,  and  the  civil  officers 
of  Greenwich  Hospital,  also  complained,  who 
were  accused  themselves  -.  nor  ^^as  this  an  act 
of  the  councD,  which  is  usual  when  any  com- 
plaint is  presented  to  the  board  of  Admiralty. 
The  governor  did  not  sign  any  complaint 
against  captain  Baillie,  as  governor,  but  as  a 
director  only.  In  consequence  of  these  com- 
plaints, a  general  court  was  held  in  April ; 
but  instead  of  a  court  of  the  noble  persons 
that  constitute  a  great  part  of  that  body,  there 
was  a  sort  of  a  puisne  general  court  convened^ 
in  order  to  have  it  submitted  to  them,  what 
should  be  done  respecting  the  book.  That  it 
was  not  such  a  general  court  as  I  had  wished  ^ 


fi9]  respecHng  the  Royai  HotfiM  ai  Greenmci^    .    A.  D.  1778.. 


[250 


tfaat  Mr.  Ibbetson  had  once,  on  his  own  sug-^ 
gestioQ,  summoned  a  full  eeneral  court,  to 
elect  a  new  steward  to  the  Hospital ;   I  hum- 
bly conceive  it  was  of  more  consequence  to 
enquire  whether  the  finest  and  noblest  charity 
in  the  world  was  well  or  ill  manaeed ;  abused 
or  not  abused ;  was  a  matter  of  inSnitely  more 
importance  than  the  election  of  a  steward  to 
the  Hospital ;    and  therefore  I  hoped,  that  as 
much  pains  would  be  taken  to  assemble  an 
impartial  general  court,  to  take  the  Case,  stat^ 
ing  such  a  variety  of  criminal  charges,  into 
consideration,  as  Liad  evidently  been  &sstowed 
on  the  former  occasion.    Tliat  on  the  14tH  of 
April,  1778,  the  general  court,  consisting  of 
six  lords  of  the  Acuniralty^  Mr.  Stephens,  "meir 
secretary,  the  governor  of  the  Hospital,  three 
commissioners  of  the  navy,  the  lieutenant-go- 
Temor  (captain  Baillie),and  thirteen  directors, 
met.    The  first  lord  of  the  Admiralty  was 
pleased  to  say,  when  the  complaints  were  read, 
at  this  court,  against  captain  Baillie,  if  he 
would  name  a  committee  of  directors  out  of 
the  number  present,  he  should  choose  his 
men.    I  objected  to  the  directors,  because 
they  had  complained  of  me.  and  were  im- 
peached by  me ;  I  therefore  tnought  it  an  im- 
proper tribunal  to  try  me,  or  themselves,  who 
were  the  very  persons  I  had  accused.  I  object- 
ed to  these  directors  sitting  in  iudsment  upon 
their  own  conduct.    Lord  Sandwich,  however, 
thought  it  a  proper  tribunal  to  examine  into 
the  Sairs  of  Greenwich  Hospital.    His  lord- 
ship desired  me  to  object  to  anv  of  them.    I 
thought,  as  they  hacl  turned  the  tables  upon 
me,  none  of  them  were  proper  persons  to  sit 
on  the  enquixy.    They  were,  however,  consti- 
tuted a  conmiittee^  and  they  sat  seven  da^s. 
The  whole  of  their  proceedings  was  partial, 
arbitraiT,  and  unjust 

Give  an  account  of  what  happened  at  that 
court.  What  day  was  the  general  court  of  en- 
quiry ordered? — I  believe,  the  14th  of  April, 
1778.  The  resolution  of  the  eeneral  court  is 
among  the  papers  on  your  loroships'  table. 

Mr.  Ibbetton  called  in. 
(Reads  the  following  Resolution.) 

^  At  a  general  court  of  the  commissioners 
and  governors  of  Greenwich  Hospital,  which 
was  held  at  the  Admiralty,  on  Tuesday,  April 
14, 1778. 

*'  Present,  right  hon.  earl  of  Sandwich,  John 
Buller,  eso.  lord  Charles  Spencer,  right  hon. 
earl  of  lisoume,  sir  Hugh  Palliser,  right  hon. 
lord  Mulgrave,  lords  of  uie  Admiralty;  Philip 
Stephens,  esq.  secretary  to.  ditto. — Director, 
sir  Charles  Hardy,  admiral  of  the  white ;  Di- 
rectors, George  Marsh,  esq.  Timothy  Brett, 
esq.  sir  Rich.  Temple,  hart,  commissioners  qf 
the  navy. — Captain  Baillie,  lieutenant^ver- 
nor,  sir  Memck  Burrell,  hart.  Z.  P.  l^nne- 
reau,  esq.  James  Stuart,  eso.  John  Cleveland, 
esq.  Perefliae  Cust,  esq.  T.  T.  Savary,  esq. 
Thomas  Hicks,  esq.  John  Barker,  esq.  Wil- 
liua  Wells;  esq.  rev.  Mr.  Cooke,  Joah  Bates, 


esq.  sir  Richard  jBickerton,  WiUiam' Reynolds, 
esq.  directors. 

**  The  Earl  of  Sandwich  informed  the  court, 
that  he  had  called  them  together  in  order  to 
la^  before  them  a  letter,  which  the  secretary 
of  the  Admiralty  had  received  from  captain 
Baillie,  lieutenant  governor  of  Greenwich 
Hospital,  dated  tlie  ^6th  of  last  month;  toge- 
ther with  a  printed  book,  which  accompamed 
it,  entitled,  ^*  The  Case  of  the  Royal  Hospital 
for  Seamen,''  &c.  as  also  several  appUcations 
from  the  board  of  directors,  the  officers  of  the 
council,  the  principal  civil  officers,  and  great 
numbers  of  the  clerks,  &c.  who  conceive 
themselves  greatly  traduced  and  injured  by 
the  charges  contained  in  the  said  book,  de- 
sirinz  redress ;  all  which  papers  were  read ; 
and  Mr.  Brett  and  Mr.  barker,  tMro  of  the  di- 
rectors who  were  not  oresent  when  the  appli- 
cation from  that  board  was  signed,  declared 
their  fiill  concurrence  in  every  Uiing  set  forth 
therein.  And  the  secretary  read  to  the  court 
a  letter  which  he  had  received  from  Mr.  £den» 
another  of  the  directors,  representing,  that  it 
would  not  be  in  his  power  to  attend  the  pre- 
sent meeting  to-day,  as  he  was  to  leave  Lon- 
don yesterday' ;  but  that  having  read  captain 
Bailiie's  performance,  he  wa^  satined  that  il 
was  improper  and  unwarrantable  in  every  re- 
spect, and  that  he  should  be  very  glad  to  near 
tnat  the  general  court  was  disposed  to  proceed 
accordingly. 

'<  Captain  Baillie,  who  was  present,  acknow- 
ledged iiimself  to  be  the  author  of  tne  above- 
mentioned  Case ;  at  the  same  time  insistii^ 
that  it  was  not  a  book  but  a  memorial. 

''  Great  part  of  the  said  Case  was  then  read ; 
particularly  such  part  of  it  as  niore  imme- 
diately reflected  upon  the  proceedings  of  the 
directors  and  their  secretary. 

''Mr.  Cust  then  moved,  that  a  committee 
might  be  app^ted  to  investigate  the  grounda 
of  the  charges  contained  in  the  said  printed 
book :  and  the  court  being  of  opinion  that  it 
nrould  be  a  very  proper  measure,  captain  Bail- 


lie  was  desired  to  name  seven  of  the  most  in- 
dependent directors  to  form  a  committee  for 
that  purpose,  which  he  declined.  Lord  Sand- 
wich then  took  a  list  of  the  directors,  and 
having  put  down  the  names  of  the  following 
gentlemen,  viz.  ^r  Merrick  Burrell,  Mr.  Fon-> 
nereau,  Mr.  Cust,  Mr.  Savary,  Mr.  Barker, 
Mr.  Wells,  Mr.  James,  and  Mr.  Reynolds; 
captain  BailUe  was  asked,  if  he  had  any  ob- 
jection to  them,  or  to  any  of  them. ;  to  which 
he  declined  giving  any  other  answer,  than 
that  he  disapprove  of  the  mode. 

"It  was  tnen  resolved,  'That  the  above- 
mentioned  gentlemen,  except  Mr.  Fonnereau, 
who  desired  to  be  excused  on  account  of  his 
ill  health,  should, be  a  committee  (of  whom 
three  to  be  a  quorum)   to   investigate  the 

grounds  of  the  several  charges  contained  in 
le  above-mentioned  book ;  and  they  werie 
desired  to  proceed  upon  that  business  with  all 
convenient  dispatch,  at  such  times  and  places^ 
as  they  should  think  most  proper  for  the  pur . 


«5I] 


Ig  GEOAGE  UL  ThdOueof  Captain  ThcfkOi  BOtte,        t^f 


pom;  a&dtrhen  ih^  had  completed  sach  tiv. 
vestigation,  to  let  the  lords  of  the  Admiralty 
iaanw  it»  that  another  general  court  might  be 
called  to  receive  their  report'"— -Adjourned. 

It  appears  by  the  directions  given  to  the 
^mmittec.  that  they  were  to  investigate  the 
grounds  of  the  several  charges  contamed  in 
captain  Baillie's  book  ?— Ye^ 

Are  there  any  directions  in  the  order,  to 
«tiquire  into  the  complaints  against  captain 
BuUie  ?^That  is  all  that  appears. 

Captain  Baillie  again. 

Give' an  account  of  what  yon  know  of  the 
]^fOoeedihgs  of  that  court  of  enquiiy,  appointed 
to  investigate  the  grounds  of  the  complaints. 

, 1%  was  a  most  complicated  business ;  it  is 

impossible  to  remember  the  whole  of  it ;  it 
was  the  course  of  seven  days  examination. 
First,  iJiey  came  down  with  a  special  pleader, 
ft  counsel  at  law,  which  I  thought  not  neces- 
sary on  an  enquiry  into  the  management  of 
Greenwich  Hospital ;  I  had  no  iaea  that  a 
counsel  was  to  be  employed  against  me,  eft 
the  pensioners.  This  gentleman  brow-besct 
me,  he  brow-beat  the  evidences ;  he  drew  out 
the  charges,  by  taking  a  chain  of  sentences, 
bits  of  lines,  apd  scraps  of  paragraphs,  out  of 
my  book.  I  was  brow-beat;  I  was  called  a 
blackguard  by  the  clerk  of  the  works,  and  a 
liar  by  the  Rev.  Mr.  Cooke.  I  beg  to  refer 
to  my  letter  to  Uie  general  court  of  governors 
and  t:ommissioners^  in  which  is  a  particular 
account  of  all  or  most  of  the  transactions  of 
the  committee ;  it  is  dated  the  l!2th  of  Au- 
gust, and  lays  on  vour  lordships'  table. 

You  understand,  it  is  expected  that  you  are 
to  swear  to  the  truth  of  the  contents  of  the 
letter  ? — If  there  is  the  smallest  draimstance 
tlwt  I  cannot  swear  to,  before  your  lordships 
end  before  God,  £  will  point  if  out  First  of 
all,  a  respectable  officer  of  Greenwich  Ho^* 
l^ital,  lieuteneint  Gordon,  as  soon  as  he  had 
given  his  evidence,  he  was  told  by  Mr.  Mbr- 
nui,  because  he  did  not  approve  of  his  evi- 
dence^ That  he  mkht  go  to  the  devil;  he  is 
^  officer  that  had  Dotb  bos  legs  hto^je  m  the 
service. 

Did  this  coihmittce  repi^ve  Mr.  Morgan 
fyi  so  doing  ?— Not  in  the  least ;  after  lieute- 
ikaAt  Smith  had  given*  his  evidence,  Mr.  Mor- 
^n  said.  Your  evidence  i^  a  libel,  Sir.  This 
terrified  the  officers ;  they  thought  they  should 
be  brought  into  the  predicament  that  I  was. 
I  beg  to  read  my  letter  of  the  isth  of  August, 
to  the  general  court  of  eov^tiiors  and  commts- 
Moners.  My  lords,  I  beg  leave  to  add,  that 
this  gentleman  (the  shor&hand  writ>!rj  whom 
I  difnot  expect*  to  see  here ;  on  the  first  day 
C»f  the  enquiry  I  saw  a  great  deal  of  foul  play; 
I  thought  the  proceedings  were  not  to-be  war- 
ilmted ;  I  sent  for  this  persbn  to  take  mmutes 
on  the  second  d^;  I  had  hmi  at  a  side-table; 
I  toldsMr.  Cust  that  he  Was  a  person  I  had 
itftiroduced  to  takte  miiiittes  by  his  leave ;  he 
ashed'  him  who  kewte;  he  said  he  wa»  a 


shoruhand  writer  brought  there  by  captain 
Baillie  40  take  notes;  upon  which  Mr.  Cust 
said,  Then  Mr.  Short-hand  writer  ple&se  to 
walk  out;  and  he  was  turned  out  in  that 
abhipt  manner.  I  believe  the  gentlenian  wajT 
frightened,  and  thought  he  was  going  to  be- 
beat  Here  is  an  expression  in  this  letter,  I 
bee  leave  to  mention  before  I  declare  it  upon 
oath;  I  understood,  at  a  prececKng  general 
court,  that  lord  Sandwich  ^id  none  were 
summoned  to  the  court  but  whom  he  thought 

Goper ;  when  I  objected  to  the  court,  to  die 
!St  of  my  belief,  he  said,  '^  A  general  court 
is  not  such  as  yt>u  choose  to  petition  for,  but 
such  as  I  think  proper  to  direct;*'  which  being 
contradicted  by  several  persons  of  chaiacter 
and  reputation,  I  don't  wish  to  give  it  in  ev^ 
dence,  thoueh  I  have  it  on  my  minutes  exact* 
ly  as  it  stands  in  my  letter. 

Captain  Bailie  reads  the  foUowing  Letter 
as  evidence: 

**  To  the  GovEavoRs  and  Commissiovers  of 
his  Majesty's  Royal  iiospttal  for  Seamen 
at  Greenwich. 

"  My  lords  and  gentlemen ; 

**  As  I  find  that  a  special  gcncrat!  court  is  ti 
be  held  this  day,  to  which  I  have  received  nd 
summons,  and  of  which  I  knew  nothing  till  a- 
few  days  ago,  I  imagine  that  it  is  intended  to 
receive  the  report  oT  the  proceedings  of  the 
committee  appointed  to  enquire  mto  the 
charges  laid  by  me  before  the  general  court^ 
in  order  to  obtain  your  sanction  to  the  in* 
tended  report. 

"  I  therefore  thhik  it  my  duty,  in  supperi 
of  the  cause  which  I  have  undertaken,  to  re* 
peat  my  protest  against  the  ^mmittee,  which 
has  undertaken  to  enquire  into  and  repoil 
concerning  the  truth  of  charges,  the  gre^s^ 

Eart  of  wFuch  is  against  themselves,  as  men^ 
ers  of  the  board  of  directors. 
**  When  I  first  laid  the  Case  and  Memorial 
before  the  eehcral  court,  I  had  no  idea  that 
the  truth  of  any  of  the  chafes  could  be  dis> 
puted.  I  drew  them  up  with  great  care,  and 
on  the- last  review,  erased  evei^  thing*  about 
which  I  had  the  smallest  doubt  in  my  own 
mind.  I  was  sensible  of  the  powers  and  m* 
flueiice  of  those  whom  I  was  opposine,  and 
that  iK>thing  could  support  me  but  truth  and 
justice ;  I  appeal  to  your  candid  recollectioa 
of  m^  conduct  in  several  instances  in  which 
l^e  pensioners  have  been  injured ;  I  appeal 
to  the  inclosed  testhnonials*  concerning  m^^ 
character  in  near  forty  years  service,  and  to 
my  conduct  in  the  Hospital,  whether  I  could 
have  any  other  motive  than  a  wish  to  recover 
and  preserve  this  noble  establishment  to  the 
sole  use  of  the  navy,  and  that  the  pensionera 
might  be  maintained  in  such  a  manner,   *  as 

% 

*  Tlieae  testimonials  were  not  delivered ;  o«p^il| 
Baillie  had  them  ready,  but  finding  Utile  or  no  at» 
tentioa  paid  to  thin  Letter,  he  declined  sbj  fbrtjier 
attenpts  to-  obadn  jot  tioe;-«Or^.  Sd. 


fS8\         rapeMng  the  Rojffd  HotpUal  at:  GreeniMch.        A*  D.  1779. 


'  to  eooouiBge  fit  and.  able  persons  to  betake 
'  themselves  to  tbe  sea-service/ 

<<  My  situatioiiy  as  lieutenant  governor  of 
the  Hospital,  is  the  highest  preferment  of 
jvhjph  my  nmk  in  the  service  will  admiL  I 
)ave  therefore  nothing  to  hope  from  the  suc- 
cess of  the  chaises  which  I  have  exhibited, 
iiiit  in  the  line  ol  my  duty  as  an  officer  of  the 
Hospital ;  and  there  is  nothing  ur^ed  in  any 
jnrt  of  the  Case  or  Memorial  in  which  I  have 
pe  least  personal  concern :  I  was  myself  fully 
Hcured  in  ease  and  comfort,  if  I  could  have 
keard  with  indifference  the  complainants  that 
vere  continually  crowding  to  my  door ;  and  I 
know  that  I  have  acted  contrary  to  those 
maiimf  of  prudence  and  circumspection  which 
govern  the  world ;  but  I  should  have  ill  de- 
served the  ^pointments  with  which  I  have 
been  honoumi,  if  I  could  have  been  deterred 
by  menaces  or  dangers  from  doing  my  duty. 

**I  mpeal.  Gentlemen,  to  vour  general 
iQBowleaigpe  of  the  world,  whether  it  is  not 
more  natural,  in  the  current  of  human  afiiiurs, 
losupposcy  that  abuses  have  crept  into  the 
management  of  the  Hospital,  wbicn  has  been 
|o  lonf  established,  than  thaVevery  thing  is 
perfectly  right,. and  whether  the  knowledge 
if  thoee  abuses  is  more  likely  to  arise  from 
the  complaints  of  the  injured,  or  tbe  reports 
^  those  who  are  termed  the  proper  officers ; 
abuses,  it  is  well  known,  can  only  be  preventr 
<d  by  frequent  enquiries  by  those  wno  wish, 
and  have  power  to  reform  them,  and  such  a 
wish  must  appear  in  the  candour  and  attenr* 
tion  with  which  the  complaints  are  heard. 

**  That  I  have  not  been  beard  with  candour, 
}S  too  evident  from  every  part  of  the  proceed- 
ings on  my  complaints ;  i  meant. to  app^  to 
a  fidl  court  of  ^  the  jgreat  and  noble  per- 
sonages who  are  named  in  the  charter  as  go- 
yemors  and  commissioners  of  Uie  Hospital ; 
iMtteadof  whicky  1  have  been  informed  by  lord 
8&9dwiehf  that  none  are  summoned  to  Vte  gene^ 
tel  courts  hut  those  vhom  he  thinks  proper^*  I 
nave  brought  a  general  char^  of^  neglect  or 
misconduct  against  the  majority  of  those  into 
vhose  hands  the  government  of  the  Hospital 
has  fallen,  supported  by  a  variety  of  instances ; 
MdA  I  have  imdertaken,  at  the  hazard  of  every 
thing  which  is  dear  to  me  as  a  man  of  honour 
and  reputation,  to  prove  both  the  genend  and 
ifie  particular  charges. 

/*  But  I  had  no  idea  that  in  this  country  a 
tlibunal  could  have  been  erected,  in.  which 
the  accused  have  sat  in  judgment  on  their 
«wn  conduct,  and  are  now  to  determine  and 
Report  on  charves  against  themselves;  a  situa- 
tion which  I  £d  not  imagine  any  man  of  re- 
putation could  have  been  betrayed  to  appear 

•  ^  la  drawins  up  many  of  the  charges,  I 
tvposely  stated  them  in  the  strongest  terms, 
because  I  meant  to  provoke  an  enquiry.  I 
WW  how  common  xt»  maxim  b  to  stMe  and 

'  *.TlDsanlaiicQialtaliotwu  vilbdnwa,  u  be- 


DKM 


suppress  all  complaints  of  this  kind,  and  I 
dreaded  if  1  did  not  bring  on  a  full  and  fair  in* 
vestigation  of  the  charges,  that  I  should  injury 
the  cause  which  I  meant  to  support. 

"  As  I  am  convinced  that  several  of  the 
directors  mean  to  act  well,  and  are  therefore 
conscious  of  their  own  integrity,  I  expected 
that  on  reading  the  Case  and  Memorial,  they 
would  have  been  as  anxious  as  myself  for  an 
open  and  fiiir  enquiry,  as  the  only  oceans  of 
clearing  themselves  from  imputations,  espe- 
cially those  in  which  frauds  are  cl\argedto 
have  been  committed  on  the  Hospital,  with- 
out any  proper  enquiry  or  punishments  by  th« 
directors. 

"  My  expectations  would  have  been  fully 
answered,  when  I  heard  the  complaint  of  the 
directors  at  the  general  court  that  tliey  could 
no  longer  act  witn  credit  to  themselves  or  ad« 
vantage  to  the  public;  if  the^r  had  added, 
'  till  tne  charges  had  been  enquired  into,  and 
'  their  falsehoods  proved ;'  instead  of  which 
they  say,  *  till  exemplary  notice  has  been 

*  taicenof  the  {uitbor.' 
**  The  general  court  acted  perfectly  wre^ 

able  to  my  expectations,  when  they  deter- 
mined that  a  committee  should  be  appointed 
to  investigate  the  grounds  of  the  several 
charges  contained  in  the  printed  Case  of  the 
Hospital.  But  I  was  much  surprised  tp  hear 
roy  lord  Sandwich  propose  that  this  commit* 
tee  should  be  appointed  out  of  the  directors 
themselves.  Mr.  Brett  anticipated  me  in  the 
objection,  by  observing,  « That  they  had  al- 
'  ready  pronounced  the  charges  to  be  false 
'  and  scandalous,  and  that  after  the  enquiiy, 

*  the  committee  could  do  no  more;'  he  might 
also  have  added,  *  they  could  do  less.'  They 
had  also  demanded  that  I  might  be  punishoi 
for  having  made  my  charges,  a  demand  which 
they  had  a  right  to  make,  if  thcv  are  false  and 
scandalous ;  b\it  they  oueht  to  pave  seep  that 
this  demand  disqualified  thei]a  from  under- 
taking  to  enquire,  or  to  give  any  further  r9^ 
port,  in  order  to  obtain  the  punishmj^  whi(4i 
they  had  denumded. 

"  It  was  contrary  to  every  appearance  of 
fairness  and  candour,  and  to  eveqr  rule,  of 
public  business  In  like  cases,  to  appoint  any  of 
the  directors  members  of  the  committee;  in- 
stead of  which,  the  committee  appointed  con** 
sisted  entirelv  of  directors ;  and  the  gentle* 
man  who  took  the  most  active  part  in  report-, 
ing  the  complaints  against  lo/e,  was  appointed 
chairman. 

"I  considered  the  offer  of  his  lordship  for 
me  to  name  the  committee  out  of  the  direc« 
tors,  as  a  mockery  and  insult.  I  had  seen  al 
the  board  at  Salters-hall,  in  which  their.com* 
plaint  to  tbe  eeneral  court  was  resolved  on» 
that  many  of  the  members,  who  were  b^  no 
means  included  under  the  term  ^  acting  direc- 
torsy'  are  yet  liiehly  ofibided  at  eyerv  unputa- 
tion  on  the  conduct  of  the  board,  and  ^so/that 
they  seemed  eager  to  listen  to  every  excuse 
that  could  be  offered  bv  thosa  who  were, 
jniore  Mtiv^ly  concemedi.as  an  excuse..  tQ. 


«55] 


18  GEORGE  III.  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaOlie,         [S36 


themselves  for  not  havin^  paid  more  alten> 
tion  to  the  business  of  the  Hospital.  Had 
I  not  observed  this,  and  had  they  not  joined 
in  pronouncing  the  charges  to  be  false  and 
scandalous  without  any  enquiry,  from  the 
opinion  which  I  had  entertained  of  several  of 
the  members  of  the  board,  I  should  have  been 
induced  to  have  waved  the  general  objection, 
and  submitted  the  whole  to  their  candid  de- 
termination. Anxious  as  I  am  for  my  reputa- 
tion, particularly  on  this  occasion,  when  the 
welfare  of  the  pensioners,  in  whose  cause  I 
have  engaged,  is  so  materially  involved,  I  fear 
that  the  angry  director  will  be  forgot,  and  the 
private  character  of  those  by  whom  I  am  op- 
posed will  be  weighed  against  me.  I  appeal, 
therefore,  gentlemen,  to  your  own  bosoms  at 
this  moment,  whether  you  are  not  much  too 
angry  against  me  for  having  made  these 
charges,  to  hear  with  calmness  and  temper 
any  proofs  which  may  be  brought  to  support 
ine. 

*^  Notwithstanding  the  objections  which  I 
have  here  made  agamst  the  committee,  I  ad- 
mit that  their  conduct  might  have  been  such 
as  to  have  removed  tlie  greatest  part  of  them. 
It  was  on  this  account  tnat  I  appeared  before 
them,  though  I  was  advised  not  to  give  any 
sanction  to  their  proceedings,  and  that  I 
urged  them  on,  the  first  day  of  their  meeting, 
to  attend  to  the  extreme  delicacy  of  their  si- 
tuations ;  instead  of  which,  the  greater  part 
of  their  proceedings  have  still  been  more  ir- 
regular tnan  their  appointment. 

^  A  counsellor  nas  appeared  a^nst  me 
during  the  whole  procecaing,  of  which  I  had 
no  notice;  and  I  nad  no  idea  that  counsel 
would  have  been  brought  down  to  Greenwich 
Hospital  to  plead  against  me,  or  the  pensioners. 
The  secretary  and  solicitor  of  the  Hospital, 
who  are  both  complainants,  were  present,  and 
took  notes  throughout  the  whole,  and  Mr. 
Cooke,  the  clerk  of  the  committee,  is  in  the 
full  predicament,  against  whom  the  greatest 
part  of  the  Case  is  directed,  as  he  is  a  land- 
man,  and  now  lodged  in  the  wards  of  the  pen- 
sioners, though  his  place  does  not  entitle  him 
to  apartments  in  the  Hospital  by  establish- 
ment. The  rev.  Mr.  Cooke,  Mr.  Hicks,  and 
Mr.  Stuart,  were  generally  present,  though 
not  of  the  committee,  took  an  active  part  m 
tlie  proceedings,  and  seemed  determined  to 
shew  that  they  are  the  manadng  directors, 
whilst  tlic  door  was  carefully  closed  against 
those  to  whom  the  committee  had  any  objec- 
tion, and  every  person  called  by  me  ordered 
immediately  to  withdraw,  af^r  they  had  an- 
swered the  questions  proposed. 

'^  Mr.  Morgan,  the  counsel  against  me,  was 
permitted  to  point  out,  and  direct,  all  the  pro- 
ceedings of  tne  committee  ;  which  he  calcu- 
lated so  as  to  thwart  and  defeat  the  evidence, 
in  a  manner  which  I  was  by  no  means  aware 
of,  instead  of  investigating  the  grounds  of  the 
several  ghanres,  as  ordered  by  tlie  general 
court,  and  tokmg  the  Case  fairly  from  the  be- 
ginning to  the  end ; .  the  compkints  of  the  »&> 


veral  officers,  clerks,  and  others,  were  taken 
as  the  foundation  of  the  proceedings. 

'*  Mr.  Morgan  had  selected  several  passages 
from  different  parts  of  the  Case  and  Memorial, 
which  he  had  strune  together  in  an  uncon- 
nected manner,  under  the  head  of  charges 
agsunst  particular  persons,  all  of  whom  he  &e- 
auently  declared  to  be  his  clients.  And  I  was 
then  desired  to  prove  not  my  own  charges, 
but  Mr.  Morgan's;  many  of  these  passages  I 
had  no  idea  of  applying  m  the  manner  wnich 
Mr.  Morgan  did ;  and  others  were  matters  of 
opinion,  grounded  on  a  long  train  of  facts  and 
arguments,  which  were  n9t  enquired  into  by 
the  committee;  on  those  which  related  to 
private  characters,  it  was  found  that  the  opi- 
nions of  some  of  the  witnesses  were  of  such  a 
nature,  that  they  did  not  think  it  safe  to  de- 
clare them,  unless  compelled  by  an  oath. 
This  was  deemed  a  failure  of  proof,  though  it 
ought  to  be  taken  as  a  proof  tnat  the  powers 
of  tne  committee  were  not  sufficient  tor  the 
enquiiy. 

"Though  Mr.  Morgan's  clients  were  by 
his  contrivance  become  plaintiffs  in  the  en- 
ouiry,  yet  they  were  all  heard  as  evidence  for 
themselves  and  for  each  other. 

"  Notwithstanding  thev  were  so  much  in* 
terested,  particularly  the  landmen,  in  defeat- 
ing the  enquiry,  whilst  I  made  no  attempt  to 
avail  myselfof  my  own  testimony,  though  £ 
doubt  not  but  my  character  and  situation  will 
intitle  me  to  be  heard  with  attention  before 
any  proper  tribunal,  as  I  have  no  interest  in 
any  part  of  the  dispute,  but  the  interest 
of  the  Hospital.  Whenever  I  appealed  to  any 
of  the  complainants  on  things  which  are  ge- 
nerally known  in  the  House,  if  they  seemed 
inclined  to  answer,  they  were  stopt  by  Mr. 
Morgan,  who  very  frequently  declared,  that 
he  would  not  suner  his  clients  to  give  evi- 
dence against  themselves ;  an  artifice  which 
may  be  proper  for  the  counsel  of  a  prisoner 
at  the  Old  ^dley,  but  it  is  a  very  imfair  and 
suspicions  precaution  in  a  court  of  enquiry 
into  the  affairs  of  Greenwich  Hospital. 

"  When  any  of  the  evidence  went  in  the 
least  beyond  the  line  drawn  by  the  counsel, 
or  spoke  of  facts  which  were  charged,  but  not 
within  the  prescribed  limits,  they  were  told  it 
was  too  soon ;  and  if  evidence  after  presented, 
which  affected  the  same  person,  they  were 
told  it  was  too  late. 

"  This  mode  of  proceeding  was  more  per- 
plexinjg  to  me,  as  I  had  been  reflised  copies  of 
any  of^the  complaints  or  proceedings  against 
me,  by  the  general  court,  by  the  directors, 
and  by  the  committee, — as  there  was  no 
opening  or  explanation  given,  which  could  di* 
rect  me  to  the  passages  complained  of,  I  was- 
generally  at  a  loss  to  know  what  those  pas- 
sages were;  in  points  wherein  I  was  fully 
prepared, — my  evidence  were  usually  refused 
to  be  heard,  onpecially  if  ttu^y  were  pension* 
ers ;  of  this  there  a  great  many  instances  in 
the  notes  which  I  have  taken  of  the  proceed- 
ings I  and  amongst  the  rest^  is  the  refiisai  W 


257]  reipecfhig  ike  Royal  HosfiUd  at  Greeitaiich.        A.  D.  1778. 


[258 


hear  tlie  evidence  of  the  men  who  hap- 
peaed  to  be  then  on  gimrd,  which  was  pro- 
posed as  the  most  impmal  method  of  takmg 
the  leal  sense  of  the  pensioners  in  general^  on 
the  complaints  of  the  linen,  thoo^  thb  was 
first  proposed  by  Mr.  James. 

*  On  those  points  in  which  I  appeared  to 
be  the  most  fully  prepared,  the  cnarge  was 
geneimUy  declared  frivolous,  or  not  to  affect 
me  particular  person  who  had  complained  of 
it,  vdA  therefore  could  not  then  he  heard. 
But  in  all  other  cases,  if  the  most  pointed  evi- 
denoe  was  not  immediately  produced  when 
demanded,  the  clerk  was  ordmd  to  write  no 
proof;  and  nothine  afterwards  could  be  heard 
on  the  subject,  tnough  the  most  unexcep- 
tionable testimony  was  oiSered. 

**  Ml.  Charles  Lefevre,  who  was  at  sea,  at 
the  time  in  which  Mr.  Morgan  had  called  on, 
what  he  deemed  the  charges  against  the  rev. 
Mr.  Cooke  and  Mr.  &)dby,  though  he 
was  the  person  from  whom  I  had  received 
the  information  of  the  letter  written  by  Mr. 
Oo&y,  after  the  composition  with  the  but- 
dier;  and  also  the  declaration  of  the  rev. 
Mr.  Cooke,  in  the  Hospital,  concerning  the 
denunciation  of  lord  Sandwich  asainst  me, 
through  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  to  Mr.  Charles 
Lefevre,  is  now  sworn  to;  and  though  he  ap- 
peared at  the  last  meeting  of  the  committee, 
and  offered  his  evidence,  it  was  positively  re- 
Aised;  and  I  believe  that  botn  these  pas- 
sages in  the  Case,  now  stand  in  the  minutes 
ofthe  committee,  and  will  be  reported  to  you 
as  not  proved.  Many  other  of  the  racts 
charged  are  in  the  same  predicament ; 
amongst  others  which  have  not  been  proved 
iieforethe  committee,  is  the  great  nuisance 
in  three  capital  wards,  arising  from  the  sink 
in  lieutenant  Besson's  new  Kitchen^  which 
passes  through  them,  though  it  matenally  af- 
fects the  hodth  and  happiness  of  sixty  pen- 


This  every  man  in  the  several  wards 
is  ready  to  prove ;  but  the  committee  have 
fepatedly  refused  to  hear  them;  and  the 
brntswain,  who  was  waiting  to  eive  evidence 
on  the  nuisance  of  the  sain  sink,  was  com- 
plained of,  for  not  payine  proper  respect  to 
the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke,  who  was  continually 
passing  to  and  from  the  committee-room ;  for 
which  lie  was  turned  out  of  his  office,  though 
a  man  of  a  very  respectable  character.  This 
and  other  proceedings  of  the  like  kind,  ereatly 
intimidated  the  pensioners,  and  created  a  ge- 
neral opinion  amongst  them  and  the  nurses, 
that  they  would  be  punished  if  they  gave  evi- 
dence. Notwithstanding  which,  great  nunKi 
bers  of  them  appeared ;  and  I  believe  that 
they  are  still  ready  to  give  their  testimony, 
which  b  a  proof  of  their  int^rity  and  the 
Justness  of  their  comolaints. 

**  The  effects  of  tne  denunciation  of  lord 
Sandwich's  resentment,  by  his  chaplain,  on 
the  officers  of  the  house,  was  very  evident,  in 
the  cautions  manner  in  which  some  of  them 
gave  thdr  testimony  before  the  committee, 
on  those  points  which  they  had  been  accus- 

VOL.  XXL 


tomed  to  declare  their  sentiments  in  the 
strongest  terms,  and  the  most  public  manner. 
The  treatment  which  they  received  before  the 
committee  was  calculated  for  the  same  pur- 
pose :  an  old  and  respectable  officer  of  the 
house  was  most  crossly  insulted ;  and  another 
told  that  his  evidence  was  a  libel.  I  was  my> 
self  addressed  by  the  chaplain,  and  the  clerk 
of  the  works,  in  the  most  vulgar  terms  of 
abuse;  the  latter  of  whom  had  the  insolence 
to  reproach  the  qjival  officers  of  the  house,  as 
living  on  charity;  and  has  since  knocked 
down  a  disabled  officer  of  the  house,  with  his 
cane,  within  the  walls  of  the  Hospital :  whidi 
is  a  fresh  proof  of  the  want  of  discipline  and 
due  government  in  the  Hospital,  as  mentioned 
in  the  printed  Case. 

**  It  will  appear,  however,  hem  the  attesta^ 
tion  subjoinea  to  the  declaration  of  lieutenant 
Lefevre,  that  a  majori^  of  the  naval  officers 
resident  in  the  house,  have  given  the  fullest 
and  most  unreserved  attestation,  in  support  of 
my  character  and  conduct  in  the  Hospital; 
and  I  appeal,  gentlemen,  to  your  candia  con- 
siderations, whether  these  attestations,  which 
do  me  so  much  honour,  could  possibly  have 
been  given  imder  so  many  discouraging  cir- 
cumstances, but  from  a  conscientious  convic- 
tion of  the  truth  of  their  declaration.  The 
declaration  of  Mr.  Lefevre's  father  must  be 
considered  as  that  of  a  dying  man ;  as  he  was^ 
during  the  whole  sitting  of  the  committee, 
cdnfined  to  his  bed,  and  believed  to  be  in  great 
danger;  ;^et  when  this  paper  was  ofierra  to 
the  committee,  by  another  officer,  afler  I  had 
been  ordered  to  retire  Irom  the  committee,  it 
was  refused  to  be  heard,  and  his  offer  to  an- 
swer any  questions  from  the  committee  total- 
1 V  disreearded ;  by  which  I  was  deprived  of 
the  whole  of  his  evidence.  If  the  naval  offi- 
cers of  the  house,  who  thought  proper  to  join 
in  tlie  complaints  to  the  general  court,  against 
me  (though  they  could  have  heard  or  read  but 
a  small  part  of  the  printed  Case)  had  had  pro- 
per ideas  of  their  duty  as  naval  officers,  they 
would  have  felt  it  as  an  irresistable  duty  to 
give  the  strongest  support  to  the  cause,  in 
which  thfe  interests  of  the  navy,  and  the  sea- 
men under  ^eir  care,  was  so  materially  consi* 
dered. 

^<  One  of  those  officers  was  so  &r  from  ful- 
filling his  duty  as  a  guardian  of  the  pensioners, 
as  to  tell  the  committee  that  the  men  ]vvbrked 
in  copperas  grounds,  and  that  this  dirtied  and 
spoilea  their  linen,  rotted  their  shoes,  heir 
stockines,  and  their  breeches.  This  cause,  as- 
siened  by  captain  Maplesden,  was  afterwards 
fiuly  prove!  to  be  without  foundation  (see  the 
6th  oa^s  minutes),  which  fairly  demonstrates 
how  inimical  he  is  to  the  cause  of  the  pen- 
sioners, whom  it  is  his  duty  to  protect,  though 
he  was  thus  inadvertentlv^lrawn  in,  to  give 
evidence  on  the  wretched  state  of  the  linen> 
the  shoes,  and  the  stockings. 

**  With  others  of  those  officers  who  signed 
against  me,  I  have  had  frequent  disputes,  on 
their  attempting  to  take  quantities  of  the  pen- 

S 


259] 


18  GEORGE  III.         The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BailUe^         [260 


sioners'  broth,  which  they  claimed  as  a  privi- 
k^  and  contended  for  with  great  violence, 
even  at  the  council,  and  also  on  receiving  ale 
as  perquisites  from  the  brewer,  though  they 
have  no  right  to  it.  This  I  caused  to  be  stop- 
ped, as  I  apprehended  that  it  was  one  cause  of 
the  ^reat  complaints  about  the  beer  of  the 
pensioners. 

'^  These  officers,  for  whom  captain  Chads, 
though  the  youngest  officer  in  the  house,  un- 
dertook to  speak,  declared  before  the  commit- 
tee,   '  that  they  never  heard  of  any  com- 

*  plaints,  but  about  the  beer,  and  that  was  im- 

*  mediately  redressed,'  though  their  names  ap- 
pear to  several  minutes  of  council ;  copies  of 
which  were  sent  to  the  directors^  in  which 
there  are  various  complaints,  particularly 
about  the  shoes,  stockings,  and  other  necessa^ 
lies. 

^'  Captain  Chads  also  undertook  to  give  an 
high  oanegyric  on  the  excellent  moral  charac- 
ter or  the  reverend  Mr.  Cooke,  in  opposition 
to  the  account  of  his  conduct  which  I  had 
given  in  the  Case;  who  has  spoken  nearest 
the  truth,  on  this  delicate  subject,  may  be  a 
matter  of  future  contest;  but  there  has  been 
laid  before  sir  Charles  Hardy  ^e  governor,  a 
complaint  in  behalf  of  a  poor  bak^r  in  Green- 
wich, who  has  frequentry  decked,  that  the 
reverend  Mr.  Cooke  had  ordered  aquantity  of 
bread  from  him,  above  two  years  ago,  to  be 
distril)uted,  instead  of  money  collected  at  the 
sacrament,  amounting  to  4/.  If.  and  also  40s.  in 
silver  which  he  ordered  from  htm  at  the  same 
time,  neither  of  which  are  paid  for  yet;  and 
the  Hospital  is  under  the  disgraceful  imputa- 
lion  of  jpvins  bread  in  duurity,  and  running  in 
4ebt  wUh  the  baker.  The  committee  will 
probably  recollect  how  anxious  Mr.  Cooke 
.was,  that  he  should  have  full  credit  for  his  roar 
nagement  of  the  charities  in  the  Hospital ; 
IMuticularly  that  given  m  a  late  severe  wmter ; 
and  in  this  case,  the  baker  was  not  paid  till 
aix  months  afterwards,  as  he  the  baker  has 
averred. 

^  As  the  characters  of  the  several  persons 
who  were  called  by  me,  underwent  a  severe 
scrutiny  before  the  committee ;  and  as  I  have 
J)een  deprived  of  the  opportunity  of  stating 
these  facts  before  the  committee  in  return,  u 
is  unnecessary  to  oftr  any  apology  for  men- 
tioning them  here. 

**  Notwithstanding  the  most  unprecedented 
mode  of  conducting  this  enquiry,  every  fact 
charged,  which  has  been  enquired  into,  has 
been  fully  proved ;  and  generally  appeared  in 
»  stronger  liriit  than  has  been  chareed  in  the 
Cag^  particularly  the  linen  there  said  to  have 
decreased  in  size  and  goodness,  which  was 
proved  by  a  variety  of  positive  testimony,  and 
by  shirts,  sheets,  &c.  produced  before  the 
committee.  Yet,  though  this  complaint  was 
more  attended  to  than  any  others,  it  was  by 
no  means  sufficiently  investigated,  and  there 
b,  at  this  time,  a  deficiency  of  a  very  large 
•  «)uantity  of  linen,  which  is  allowed  by  the  es- 
tebliahufiat  of  the  Hospital. 


<'  But  the  facts  which  have  been  enquired 
into  make  a  very  small  part  of  those  which 
are  charged  in  the  printeo  Case. 

''The  great  charge,  that  landmen  have 
been  obtruded  into  the  Hos{Htal  contrary  to 
charter,  to  the  establishment  of  the  founder^ 
and  hisYoyal  successors,  to  the  will  of  the  nu- 
merous benefactors,  and  to  the  nature  and 
end  of  the  institution,  the  committee  have  po- 
tively  and  repeatedly  refused  to  enquire  into, 
though  this  is  the  parent  of  nearly  all  the 
grievances  complained  of.  It  was  to  obtain  a 
report  on  this  artide  that  I  attended  the  com* 
mittee,  notwithstanding  the  unworthy  treaU 
ment  I  received,  and  compared  with  this,  I 
feel  litUe  anxiety  about  the  rest  of  the  chams  ; 
as  I  am  convinced,  that  if  this  was  remeoied; 
the  greater  part  of  them  would  of  themselves 
fall  to  the  groimd. 

^'  No  enquiry  was  made  into  the  charges  on 
the  conduct  of'^the  several  officers  and  under* 
9fficers  now  in  the  Hospital,  who  were  coiw 
cemed  in  the  improper  management  of  the 
beer,  in  receipt  of  the  bull  beef,  and  other 
transactions  ol  the  like  fraudulent  kind ;  but 
several  of  them  seemed  inclined  before  the 
committee,  to  dispute  even  the  verdict  of  tiw 
jury ;  as  they  prooably  would,  the  justness  of 
the  butcher's  man,  who  was  transported.  No 
enquiiy  has  been  made  into  the  oad  state  oT 
the  shoes,  which  was  so  fully  proved  before 
the  council,  and  which  are  worse  in  eveiy  Te» 
spect  than  those  served  ui  common  work* 
houses ;  the  stockings,  which  are  in  still  a 
worse  state,  have  also  not  been  enquired  into; 
and  are  totally  incapable  of  defence  or  pallia^ 
tion. 

^  The  whole  business  of  the  charity  stock, 
in  which  is  involved  so  many  abuses,  has  not 
been  taken  the  least  notice  of  by  the  commit 
tee.  tliough  charged  at  length  in  the  Case;, 
ana  though  the  drunkenness  so  frequently 
imputed,  as  a  reason  for  treating  the  pei>- 
sioners  with  contempt,  is  occasioned  by  im- 
properly giving  so  many  of  them  money  u^ 
stead  01  provisions. 

*'  The  nnproper  admission  and  treatment  of 
the  boys,  and  every  other  circumstance  relat- 
ing  to  them,  were  also  neglected.  The  evi- 
dence which  I  offisred,  to  prove  the  mischieft 
and  terrors  to  which  the  bund  and  feeble  men 
are  subjected,  by  the  removal  of  the  posts  and 
rails,  were  all  refused  to  be  heard. 

*'  Of  the  number  of  officers'  widows  now 
serving  in  the  mean  capacity  of  common 
nurses,  under  spinsters  who  have  no  claim  to 
the  establishment,  no  notice  has  been  taken. 

"  Many  of  the  matters  which  have  been 
mentioned,  were  very  slighUy  investisited ; 
as  the  question,  whether  the  Hospital  is  nnish^- 
cd  or  not ;  and  nothing  has  been  ofiered  on 
the  subject,  except  the  extravagant  idea  of  the 
clerk  of  the  works,  that  the  Derwentwater  es* 
Ute  was  granted  in  perpetuity  to  finish  the 
building.  The  several  circumstances  relating 
to  the  ousting  the  pensioners ;  and  the  en- 
croachments by  badfiRni  in  diffsrent  pacH 


i6I]        retpectmg  the  Royal  HtfiUA  at  Greenuidi.        A.  D.  1778^ 


t26f 


^  the  Hospital;  were  veiy  alightly  enquired  | 

IDtO. 

^  The  bad  state  of  the  infirmary  the  com- 
■uttee  refused  to  view;  and  have  heard  no 
evidence  but  that  of  Mr.  Myhie;  which  can 
le  fully  controverted. 

"The matter  of  the  Painted-hall  was 
afightly  investigatedy  and  appeared  as  stated 
in  the  printed  Case.  But  haa  the  committee 
▼isted  it  themselves,  they  must  have  seen 
■nny  defects  which  were  never  observed  be- 
fore ;  and  it  is  now  doubtful  whether  it  is  not 
BOW  injured  by  the  great  expence  attending 
tiie  cleaning  of  it. 

•^Tlie  many  inconveniences  and  losses 
which  have  happened  to  the  Hospital,  from 
the  very  slight  manner  of  examining  and  pass- 
ing the  accounts  by  the  directors ;  particular- 
"hj  the  great  loss  in  the  case  of  Mr.  £llis, 
R€m  the  meffectual  checks  on  the  steward's 
office;  and  the  large  sums  wliichare  annually 
expended  under  the  head  of  necessary  works, 
from  the  reports  of  the  clerk  of  the  works, 
with  very  uttle  examination  or  controul. 
These,  with  many  others,  most  material  ob- 
jects of  enquiry  (which  may  hereafter  be  more 
carefully  enumerated)  were  all  referred  to  the 
committee  by  the  general  court;  but  have 
either  not  been  investigated,  or  the  evidence 
which'was  offered,,  refused  to  be  heard.  And 
en  many  of  them  the  committee  might  have 
had  the  best  information  and  evidence,  by 
examining  the  matters  themselves,  which  they 
declined  to  do. 

*•  But  the  great  finesse  by  which  every  pur- 
pose of  full  and  fair  enquiry  has  been  finally 
defeated  before  the  committee,  has  been,  that 
on  many  occasions,  when  I  strongly  pressed 
that  my  evidence  might  be  heard^  I  was  told 
by  Mr.  Cust,  the  chairman,  that  it  was  not 
proper  now,  but  that  when  Mr.  Morgan  had 
gone  through  the  charges  against  his  clients, 
whatever  matter  I  should  then  declare  had 
not  been  investi^ted,  or  properly  enquired 
into,  should  be  fully  heard  under  the  general 
bead  of  charges  against  the  directors :  this 
promise^  Mr.  Cust  particularly  repeated,  when 
the  gowns  of  the  purses  were  shewn  to  him ; 
which  complaint  was  so  evidently  just,  that  he 
appeared  to  think  it  would  not  be  disputed. 
And  he  very  frequently  declared  that  the 
committee  could  not  fimsh  their  enquiries  for 
several  months. 

**  But  on  the  day  in  which  the  charges  se- 
lected by  Mr.  Morgan  were  to  be  finished, 
Mr.  Cust  did  not  attend,  and  another  chair- 
man appeared,  who  behaved  in  the  most  un- 
warrantable and  arbitrary  manner ;  refused  to 
hear  evidence  on  almost  every  subject ;  treat- 
ed every  attempt  to  impeach  the  conduct  ot 
the  directors  as  a  personal  insult,  which  he 
resented  with  great  violence;  and  decided 
v^oa  several  suojects  of  debate  without  at- 
tends to  any  other  authorities  or  arguments 
than  his  own,  which  generally  was,^  *'  that 
there  were  different  opimons  about  the  matter, 
and  that  was  aU  he  could  learn  about  it.'' 


"  I  was  at  len^h  ordered  to  withdraw; 
after  which  the  officers  of  the  council,  whose 
evidence  had  been  finished,  and  they  had- 
withdrawn,  were  called  in  again,  and  the  exa- 
mination into  the  complaints  against  me  re- 
sumed in  my  absence. 

"  On  the  breaking  up  of  the  meetiifg,  I  was- 
informed  that  the  next  meeting  would  be  to 
examine  into  the  charges  against  the  direc-^ 
tors ;  and  that  they  should  want  nobody  but 
themselves. 

**•  Thus,  all  the  promises  of  Mr.  Oust,  ancf 
the  expectation,  which  had  prevented  me 
firom  making  any  objections  in  the  course  of 
the  enquiry,  were  defeated. 

"  I  now  find  that  the  task « which  I  have" 
undertaken,  to  enumerate  the  several  objec- 
tions to  the  conduct  of  the  committee,  much 
too  great  to  be  effected  in  this  letter ;  as  it 
reqmres  an  enumeration  of  the  whole,  and 
appears  much  stronger  in  the  proceedings 
taken  at  length,  than  in  this  abstract  of  them. 
As  I  have  laid  a  full  account  of  the  proceed- 
ings before  counsel,  I  must  wait  for  their  opi- 
nion and  assistance.  But  I  thought  I  should 
have  been  inexcusable  to  myself,  to  the  pen- 
sioners, and  to  this  court,  if  I  did  not  in^ke  an 
attempt  (however  slender  my  hopes  may  bej 
to  induce  you  to  review  and  consider  well  all 
your  proceedings  against  me,  in  this  stage  of 
the  business. 

''  It  is  necessary,  my  lords  and  gentlemen^ 
for  your  Own  honour  and  reputation,  as  well 
as  for  the  cause  of  truth  ana  justice,  and  the 
welfare  of  the  pensioners  under  your  care,  that 
you  should  review  the  proceedings  in  the  most 
dispassionate  manner.  I  cannot  yet  suppose 
but  there  are  here  several  gentlemen  who  will 
not  submit  to  become  instruments  of  oppres- 
sion, and  that  they  will  declare  the  committee 
was  improperly  appointed  for  the  iiivesti^atioA 
of  tnith,  (on  which  ever  side  it  is)  or  tor  thfe 
clearing  the  characters  of  the  several  parties 
— that  the  proceedings  were  irregular  and  ar- 
bitrary; and  that  it  broke  up  m  a  manner 
which  will  not  do  honour  to  any  of  those  con- 
cerned in  it. 

**  Attempts  may  be  made  to  hold  me  out  to 
all  future  officers  of  the  House,  who  shall  dare  > 
to  suppose  that  there  are  abuses  in  Greenwich 
Hospital — and  I  may  suffer  for  having  made 
those  complaints — ^but  I  will  not  patiently 
submit  to  oppression.  I  must  somewhere  be 
fairly  heara ;  and  as  the  whole  matter  is  now 
subjttdice ;  iind  as  I  have  a  great  number  of 
affidavits  of  men  of  character,  ready  to  pro- 
duce and  oppose  lo  the  volumes  sworn  against 
me  in  the  King's-bench,  by  the  parties  who 
have  moved  for  informations,  I  trust,  my  con- 
duct will  not  be  prejudiced  by  the  general 
court ;  for  I  never  had  the  least  wish  to  at- 
tract the  attention  of  any  of  the  public  on  the 
affairs  of  tlie  Hospital,  if  I  could  possibly  avoid 
it;  and  as  a  faithfiil  servant  to  his  majesty,  I 
am  particularly  desirous  of  avo'ding  every 
thing  which  may  tend  to  disturb  the  minds  of 
the  seamen  at  so  critipal  a  moment  as  the 


J6S] 


18  GEORGE  UL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thonuu  Baiaiet         [264 


present;  I  therefore  anxioii^  wish  to  gain 
the  attentioik  of  the  court,  so  &r  as  may  be 
necessary  to  put  a  stop  to  the  priiicipal  evils 
complained  of  in  the  management  of  the  Hos- 
pital, which  disturbs  the  comfort  and  happi- 
ness of  the  pensioners,  as  there  may  then  he 
no  nec^sity  for  pursuing  the  retrospective 
Tiew  of  the  various  causes  any  further. 

**  I  well  know  the  prejudices  which  arc  en- 
tertained against  me ;  I  have  told  truths  of  a 
very  unpleasant  nature;  and  I  have  stated 
facts,  wnich  are  considered  as  reflections  by 
those  to  whom  I  profess  personal  esteem; 
and  others  to  whom  I  owe  personal  obliga-' 
tions.  But  when  I  made  this  attempt,  to  ob- 
tain a  reformation  of  all  the  abuses  in  Green- 
wich Hospital,  and  a  thorough  investigation 
of  the  several  causes,  in  order  to  prevent  them 
for  the  future,  I  thought  it  my  duty  to  tell  the 
truth,  and  the  whole  truth,  or  that  I  should 
otherwise  beti^v  the  cause  which  I  meant  to 
support.  If  I  nave  erred^  it  has  been  on  the 
side  of  a  very  sincere  zeid ;  and  if  I  have  been 
imprudent,  it  has  been  principally  at  my  own 
hazard ;  but  I  can  solemnly  assure  you,  gen- 
tlemen, that  I  had  not  the  smallest  personal 
interest  or  view  in  any  of  the  comphunts 
which  I  have  laid  before  the  general  court ; 
and  that  there  are  none  of  them  but  what  I 
thought  it  my  indispensible  duty  to  make,  in 
behalf  of  a  body  of  men  who  blave  deserved 
well  of  their  country. — ^I  have  the  honour  to 
he,  with  great  respect,  my  lords  and  gentle- 
men, your  most  obedient  and  most  humble 
servant,  Thomas  Baillis/' 

*'  P.  S.  I  must  now  beg  leave  earnestly  to 
repeat  my  former  application,  to  be  furnished, 
by  order  of  the  court,  not  only  with  copies  of 
the  several  charees  retorted  upon  me,  by  the 
directors  of  the  Hospital,  and  by  the  several 
officers  of  the  house,  and  of  the  clerks,  turn- 
cock, labourers,  6lc,  who  have  been  urged  to 
sign  complaints  against  me,  to  the  board  of 
Admiralty,  and  to  the  general  court;  and  like- 
wise that  you  will  onler  me  to  be  furnished 
with  copies  of  all  such  letters  to  the  directors, 
from  several  officers  of  the  infinnary,  com- 
plaining of  the  defective  state  of  the  wood 
work  in  their  apartments  ;  and  also  copies  of 
all  such  minutes  or  proceedings  of  the  direc- 
tors, as  myself  or  counsel  may  uiink  necessary 
for  my  defence,  in  his  mqiesty's  court  of 
King's-bench.  which  I  trust  will  not  be  revised 
me;  especially  as  the  contracting  butcher  was 
furnished  by  the  Hospital  with  all  such  papers 
as  were  thought  by  bun  and  his  counsel  to  be 
necessary  to  strenc:then  his  defence  against 
the  Hospital,  in  the  action  brought  against 
him,  in  the  court  of  King's-bencn,  for  the 
several  breaches  of  his  contract,  in  supplying 
the  poor  pensioners  with  the  flesh  of  buUs  ana 
bull  stags,  instead  of  good  fat  ox  beef,  agree- 
able to  contract 

**  Thomas  Baillie." 

'*  Royal  Hospital  for  Seamen,  at  Greenwich, 
August  12, 1779." 


Who  do  you  refer  to,  in  that  accoant,  tha^ 
struck  the  officer  ?-— The  clerk  of  the  works. 

What  is  the  name  of  the  boatswain  that  is 
turned  out? — ^Boatswain  Goi^h;  it  does  not 
appear  in  the  minutes  of  the  House,  that  ha 
was  turned  out  for  that  offence ;  but  that  was 
the  ground  of  his  dismission,  though  he  had 
never  been  complained  of  in  the  course  of 
eight  years  before. 

Whom  did  you  refer  to,  that  struck  the 
officer  ?  And  what  is  his  name  ? — ^Mr.  Mylne^ 
the  clerk  of  the  works;  I  believe  it  was  be- 
cause he  gave  a  favourable  evidence  on  my 
account.  Mr.  Morgan  said  his  evidence  vns 
a  libel.  I  have  in  my  hand  the  declaration  of 
lieutenant  Lefevre,  which  he  signed  on  his 
death-bed,  that  was  refused  to  be  read  by  tli» 
committee.  I  beg  to  observe,  that  the  present 
lieutenant-governor  took  a  very  active  part  in 
complaining  against  me,  though  he  aauA  not 
seen  the  pnnted  Case  beforehand,  except  for  a 
short  time.  Whenever  I  produced  a  witness 
before  the  committee  of  directors,  the  council 
books  were  searched,  to  look  into  their  cha^ 
racters  for  a  number  of  years  back,  before 
they  were  permitted  to  give  evidence.  I  must 
beg  leave  to  observe,  1  had  all  the  depositions 
in  my  hand  that  were  prepared  for  my  de- 
fence, in  the  court  of  King's-bench,  I  tendered 
them  to  tiie  general  court ;  they  were  refused^ 
and  the  answer  was,  they  were  not  come '  to 
hear  evidence  upon  oath,  but  to  receive  the 
report  of  the  committee ;  and  many  papers 
which  I  had  applied  for,  to  the  general  court 
and  board  of  directors,  were  refused  to  me  ; 
though  the  contracting  butcher  was  furnished 
with  every  thing  he  thought  necessary  for  his 
defence,  in  the  action  instituted  against  him 
for  fraud. 

Whether  you  were  ever  called  upon,  by  that 
committee  of  directors,  to  prove  your  book  ? — 
There  is  a  letter  on  your  lordships'  table, 
which  I  wrote  to  the  committee  of  directors^ 
as  they  were  to  investigate  the  grounds  of  the 
several  complaints  made  by  me,  that  I  might 
be  permitted  to  prove  them,  in  the  order  in 
which  ihey  were  in  the  printed  Case. 

Did  you  desire  to  prove  your  book  befbie 
that  committee  ? — ^I  desired  to  prove  the  Case,. 
from  the  beginning  to  the  end,  before  the 
committee. 

Did  they  grant  that  request? — They  did 
not;  for  my  witnesses  were  refused  to  ba 
heard ;  where  they  thought  there  was  matter 
to  be  collected  for  the  King's-bench,  they 
were  inclined  to  go  on,  they  seemed  to  regard 
nothing  else. 

You  were  prevented  in  proving  the  nounds 
of  your  complaint,  by  that  committee? — ^In  a 
vanetv  of  instances. 

Did  you  desire  to  call  witnesses  that  were 
refused?— Yes,  Mr.  Charles  Lefevre;  wheo 
he  was  called  into  the  room,  the  rev.  Mr, 
Cooke  was  fHghtened ;  he  thou^t  he  was  at 
sea;  he  started  up,  objected  to  nis  evidence^ 
and  Mr.  Lefevre  was  ordered  oit  of  th* 
room. 


S65]        retpedhg  ihe  Roj^ 


ai  Gremnoich.        A.  D.  1778. 


[S69f 


Who  wu  dttirman  at  that  time?— Mr. 
Bttker;  it  was  the  last  day  of  the  enquiry. 

You  wdre  not  sufiered  to  produce  hiin  as  a 
witness  ? — I  was  not ;  and  fus  fother's  dechir- 
ntum  on  his  death-bed  was  refused  to  be 
bcaid.  Captun  Allwricht  carried  it  a  second 
time,  and  it  was  refused.  There  were  a  num- 
ber of  blind  men  ready  to  give  evidence ;  it 
was  said  the  labouring  men  wore  out  their 
flboes  and  stockings  at  hard  labour;  I  thought 
the  hiiiid  men  proper  evidence^  as  there 
ooaid  not  be  that  objection  to  them ;  they  at- 
tended seven  days,  their  evidence  was  at  last 
lefusod. 

You  ofiiered  to  call  them,  and  they  were  r^ 
fused? — Yes ;  in  a  variety  of  instances,  boat- 
swain Cough's  was  also  refused ;  the  whole 
WIS  conducted  as  Mr.  Morgan  thought  pro- 
per. Mr.  Cost  told  me  I  should  b«  heard 
whoi  he  had  done;  but  the  witnesses  were 
never  heard. 

Mr.  Gust  told  you,  as  chairman,  that  you 
should  be  heard  when  Mr.  Morgan  was  done  ? 
-Yes. 

Did  you  remind  the  court  of  his  promise  ? 
—Yes;  there  was  not  the  least  attention  paid 
to  it 

When  the  enquiry  commenced,  did  you 
kid  it,  to  prove  your  Case  ?  Or  did  Mr.  Mor- 
^  beein  it  with  any  thing  else  ?— Mr.  Mor- 
gui  ha3  it  prepared  and  drawn  out  into  a  book, 
and  went  on  as  he  pleased ;  sometimes  he 
opened  my  Case  at  the  beginning,  sometimes 
Jabe  middle  and  where  he  pleased.  I  asked 
who  he  was?  Thev  said  a  counsellor^  broujght 
down  there  to  lead  the  enquiry  and  direct  it. 

Who  told  ;^ou  so  ?^Mr.  Cust  said  so ;  no- 
body contradicted  it. 

You  objected  to  it  ? — ^Yes ;  there  was  a  gen- 
tieman  at  my  house ;  I  desired  he  might  be 
present,  which  was  granted ;  but  this  man  at 
my  elbow,  the  short-hand  writer,  came  down 
to  take  minutes ;  he  was  turned  out 

Did  the  court  call  first  upK>n  you,  or  Mr. 
Moivan,  to  examine  the  witnesses? — They 
wooU  read  a  passage,  and  say  to  me,  Prove 
that 

Wben  a  witness  was  called,  who  was  first 
to  eiamine  him,  you  or  Mr.  Morgan  ? — There 
was  nothing  but  a  scene  of  confiuion ;  when 
1  asked  a  question  it  was  generally  objected  to. 

When  a  witness  was  called^  was  Mr.  Mor- 
gan called  upon  first  to  escamme  that  witness, 
or  you  ? — ^I  cannot  say  as  to  that. 

Was  your  book  regularlv  read  through  ? — 
Not  a  word  of  it ;  onfy  such  passages  as  they 
Hjoiffiht  fit  to  pitch  upon. 

I  oenre  to  ask,  if  he  recollects,  what  reasons 
were  ^ven  for  turning  Lefevre  out  of  the 
room? — ^I  know  of  no  other  reason  than  that 
the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  raot  up  and  objected  to 
his  evidence ;  he  said  ne  had  been  under  exa- 

imDati<Mi  before,  and  he  was  not  to  be  ad- 

nutted  afterwards ;  though,  on  a  similar  case, 

Mr.  Myhie  {iroduced  a  witness,  a  Mr.  Adams. 

who  gave  evidence,  thouzh,  I  believe,  he  had 

never  seen  tbainfinnaryDefore;  he  sud  he 


could  not  attend  another  day,  and  his  evidence 
was  admitted  on  several  pomts. 

Had  Lefevre  been  examined  before  ? — He 
had  not  been  examined,  he  having  been  at 
sea ;  he  was  very  abruptly  turned  out  of  the 
room. 

You  said  Mr.  Cooke  went  about  the  Hos- 
pital encouraging  people  to  sign  complaints 
against  you ;  now  uo  you  know  that  ?— I  was 
told  so  by  some  of  the  people  that  refused  *to 
sign  it. 

You  said  a  Mr.  Morean,  a  lawyer,  was  em* 
ployed  against  you  ? — ^i  es. 

Had  you  any  lawyer? — ^No;  nw  was  I  in- 
formed of  their  intention. 

Who  was  that  ^tleman  that  was  at  your 
house  ? — ^A  clerk  m  the  stamp-office. 

He  never  practised  the  law?-— No ;  I  believe 

fkOX, 

How4o  you  know  that  captain  Maplesden 
had  never  read  your  book,  when  he  signed 
the  paper? — There  were  very  few  delivered 
out;  I  oelieve  the  Case  that  was  produced  aa 
the  council  of  Greenwich  Hospital^  was  the 
very  Case  I  delivered  to  lord  Sandwich ;  cap* 
tain  Maplesden  produced  it;  I  believe  the 
rev.  Mr.  Cooke  g^ve  it  to  him :  how  he,  Mr. 
Cooke,  came  by  it,  I  cannot  tell.  Maplesden 
took  it  from  under  his  coat,  and  said  it  was  a 
book  lately  pubUshed  by  the  lieutenant  go- 
vernor ;  I  was  surprised  to  see,  unknown  te 
me,  that  a  full  council  of  the  officers  of  the 
house  had  been  got  together,  and  captain  Ma- 
plesden attempted  to  select  passages  out  of 
my  book  that  were  obnoidous  to  tne  officers 
ofAirreenwich  Hospital ;  but  he  could  not 

How  do  you  know  that  captain  Maplesden 
had  not  seen  the  book  but  a  few  minutes  be- 
fore he  signed  the  paper  ? — ^I  believe  so,  be- 
cause he  could  not  pitch  upon  a  passage  ob- 
noxious to  the  naval  officers  of  that  Hospital ; 
a^r  that  Mr.  Cooke  took  it,  and  he  could  not 
find  a  passage ;  then  Mr.  Godby  took  it,  and 
pitchea  upon  a  passage  about  removing  a  sink 
at  his  door. 

You  have  said  that  several  persons  were 
stirred  up  against  you,  how  do  you  know  that? 
— From  what  the  people  told  me. 

You  said  that  the  boatswam  was  turned  out 
for  not  pulling  his  hat  off  to  the  rev.  Mr. 
Cooke  ?— I  si^  I  verily  believed,  that  that 
was  the  man's  ofience. 

What  reason  have  you  to  believe  that? 
You  said  that  was  the  only  reason  of  his  being 
turned  out,  what  did  you  ground  your  judg- 
ment upon? — ^I  know  this  man  was  several 
days  waiting  to  give  evidence ;  I  attempted 
to  get  him  in,  Mr.  Cooke  saw  him  there ;  be 
would  not  be  turned  awav  firom  siving  evi- 
dence ;  as  he  was  waiting,  he  asked  a  brother 
boatswain  why  he  pulledhis  hat  off  so  often 
to  Mr.  Cooke,  and  said,  "  I  pulled  my  hat  off 
at  first,  and  I  don't  choose  to  repeat  it;'' 
upon  that  this  man  was  complained  of  by  Mr. 
Cooke,  to  captiun  Chads,  ana  he  put  him  on 
tiie  complaint-book.  He  came  to  me  and 
told  lus  story;  I  advised  the  man  to  go  ta 


96r] 


IS^GEORGE  m.  The  Case  of  Captain  Tkanuu  BaUSe^         [S68 


Ifo.  Cooke,  and  ask  his  pardon  for  any  offence  I 
be  had  given  him ;  he  said.  No,  he  vfoa\d 
Qot  forgive  him,  he  should  he  tried  by  the 
council  of  the  house.  I  believe  that  intimi- 
dated the  pensioners  very  much ;  the  com- 
mittee were  then  sitting. 

Was  the  complaint  tor  not  pulling  his  hat 
off? — ^That  is  not  the  complaint  put  down, 
but  that  is  the  ground  of  it. 

Have  you  heard  any  other  complaint? — 
Only  I  believe  fur  not  paying  proper  respect 
to  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke.  There  is  not  a  more 
respectable  character  of  a  seaman  in  Green- 
wich Hospital,  or  in  England,  than  this  poor 
man. 

•  You  say  there  was  encouragement  given  or 
offered  to  persons  that  would  sign  a  paper 
against  you;  how  do  you  know  that? — ^I 
know  that  Mr.  Cooke  went  about  telling  the 
officers,  that  the  book  was  obnoxious  to  my 
lord  Sandwich  and  the  directors. 

That  is  not  an  answer  to  the  question ;  you 
8aid,  in  your  evidence,  that  enoouraeements 
were  given  to  the  people  that  would  sign  a 
paper  against  you ;  I  want' to  know  how  you 
know  that? — ^The  rev.  Mr.  Cooke  went  to 
lieutenant  Gordon,  and  said,  Here  is  a  letter 
abusing  lord  Sandwich ;  the  man  himself  told 
me  of  It. 

That  is  not  evidence  ? — ^I  cannot  have  other 
evidence ;  Mr.  Cooke  would  not  tell  me  that 
himself. 

I  want  you  to  confine  yourself  to  things  of 
your  own  knowledge. — ^I  can  tell  your  lordships 
one  very  strong  instance  of  preferment  which 
has  been  given  since,  and  probably  might 
have  been  offered  before ;  there  is  one  Cook, 
(not  the  rev.  Mr.  Cooke)  clerk  to  the  late 
committee ;  that  man,  since  this,  (for  his  good 
flervices  upon  that  occasion.  I  cannot  conceive 
it  was  for  any  thing  else)  his  son.  who  had 
been  at  sea  two  years  and  an  half,  or  three 
years  at  most,  upon  coming  home  he  was 
made  a  lieutenant. 

The  Earl  of  Sandzoich,  Does  captain  Baillie 
say  this  man  had  been  but  three  years  at  sea, 
and  was  made  a  lieutenant;  what  is  his 
name  ? — A,    Cook. 

Had  he  been  but  three  years  at  sea  ? — He 
was  at  school  in  Greenwich ;  he  might  be  put 
on  the  books  of  a  yacht,  but  that  is  not  ac- 
tually being  at  sea,  nor  fs  h*  above  17  years 
of  age,  though  the  instructions  say  they  shall 
be  20  years  of  age.  My  lords,  there  are  other 
instances  of  favours  granted  to  people  who 
complained  against  me. 

How  do  you  know  that  this  man's  bemg 
made  a  lieutenant,  was  as  a  j^tification  to 
Cook  for  his  services  in  this  affiiir  of  the 
Hospital  ? — Because  I  verily  believe  no  such 
irregular  appointment  would  otherwise  have 
taken  place. 

How  do  you  know  that  this  was  an  irregu- 
lar appointment? — Because  in  40  years  ser- 
vice, I  never  knew  an  instance  before  of  a 
person  who  had  been  only  three  years  actually 
mt  sea  being  appointed  to  a  lieutenancy ;  be- 


sides, he  is  not  above  17  years  of  age,  and  he 
oueht  to  be  20 ;  he  is  but  17  or  18  at  the  out- 
sit. I  beg  to  say,  I  am  now  upon  my  oath^ 
I  don't  wish  to  conceal  one  circumstance  of 
my  conduct  in  Greenwich  Hospital. 

[Captain  Baillie  withdrew.} 

Mr.  Cosoley  called  in. 

I  beg  to  know  what  employment  you  astt^ 
in  ? — I  am  clerk  to  the  stamp-office. . 

What  trade  are  you  ? — I  am  a  stationer. 

Were  you  ever  bred  to  the  law  ? — ^I  never 
was  at  the  bar;  I  had  never  any  kmd  of 
knowledge  of  the  law  but  what  was  acci* 
dental. 

Inform  the  House  whether  you  attended 
the  committee  of  enquiry  at  Greenwich  Hos> 
pital,  that  were  to  enquire  into  captain.  Bai)^ 
lie's  complaint? — ^I  did. 

What  day? — ^It  is  so  great  a  distance  oS 
time  I  cannot  remember  the  dates  ^  I  have 
minutes  I  can  refresh  my  memory  with  [loo^a 
at  his  minutes]  it  was  the  18th  of  April,  1778. 

Was  that  the  first  day  the  committee  met  ^ 
— ^It  was  the  first  day. 

Give  an  account  of  the  proceedings  of  that 
committee.— They  are  exceedingly  volumi- 
nous ;  I  could  be  glad  to  answer  any  pointed 
question. 

Did  the  committee  first  call  upon  captaixi 
BailUe  to  make  good  the  charges  in  his  bookf 
— At  the  first  opening  of  the  committee,  there 
were  very  long  and  disagreeable  altercations  \. 
there  was  a  deal  of  personal  animosity  to  cap* 
tain  Baillie ;  the  matter  was  very  much  dis- 
puted in  what  manner  they  should  eo  on; 
captain  Baillie  produced  a  letter,  and  read^ 
directing  in  whiat  manner  he  thought  they 
should  proceed ;  and  it  was  proposed  to  the 
committee,  either  to  take  the  Case  fairly  from, 
the  beginning  to  the  end,  or  to  take  that 
letter,  in  which  I  believe  there  were  eighteen 
charges  drawn  up.  The  chairman  s^d.  We 
will  direct  the  enquiry  in  what  manner  we 
think  proper,  and  desired  Mr.  Morgan  to  ga 
on;  Mr.  Morgan  produced  a  number  of 
charges. 

Did  they  determine  that  tliey  would  pro- 
ceed in  eitiicr  of  those  ways? — The  only  an- 
swer we  had  was,  we  will  not  take  direction, 
from  you,  we  will  conduct  it  in  what  manner 
we  think  proper  •  any  thing  proposed  by  cap- 
tain Bailhe  was  immediately  rejected. 
Who  began  the  enquiry  ? — Mr.  Morgan. 

What  did  they  begin  with?— The  first  en- 
quiry was  under  a  number  of  chaiges  Mr. 
Morgan  had  strung  together,  which  he  called- 
charges  against  the  surveyor.  Mr.  Morgan 
called  himself  counsel  there,  in  consequence 
of  a  number  of  complaints  made  at  the  Ad- 
miralty against  captam  Baillie ;  that  the  com- 
plaints at  the  Aamiralty  were  the  ground  of 
the  proceedings. 

When  Mr.  Morgan  said  he  had  collected 
charges  a^inst.  captain  Baillie,  were  any  co- 
pies of  those  charges  delivered  to  captain 
Baillie  ?^No;    he  did  afterwards   let  the 


fBS]         rapec&ig  the  Royal  HotpUtd  at  Greemath.        A.  D.  1778, 


P7« 


Dimes  ofthe  persons  be  taken  down.  Copies 
of  tbe  compiamls  agunst  captain  Bdillie  were 
fieqoently  reauesm  by  captain  BailHe,  but 
always  refiisea. 

Dtd  they  proceed  on  cajptain  Baillie^s  com- 
pkints  as  conducted  by  himself,  or  on  com- 
pkuols  against  captain  Baillie,  or  captain 
BailUe's  complaints  taken  and  conducted  by 
Mr.  Morgan  ? — There  were  continual  disputes 
ir^  Mr.  Moi^an  and  captain  BaiUie  on  the 
manner  in  which  he  earned  it  on ;  he  col- 
lected those  ]^sages  he  thought  most  advan- 
tagBoos  to  his  dtents ;  the^  were  generally 
those  ag^vating  expressions  that  they 
tboi^ht  might  found  an  action  in  the  KingV 
bencA ;  the  question,  whether  the  pensioners 
were  well  fed,  orwhether  landmen  were  there. 
Has  no  part  of  the  enquiry  at  all. 

The  nrst  thing  they  called  a  charge  against 
the  sarveyoT;  did  Mr.  Morgan  state  what 
that  charge  was? — ^No;  he  turned,  as  far  as 
my  memory  goes,  to  pa^  9,  and  said.  Prove 
ikal ;  captain  BailUe  said,  "  I  did  not  know 
what  you  was  going  to  enquire  on,  if  you  will 
,  permit  me  either  to  follow  the  order  of  the 
nook,  or  the  letter  which  he  had  drawn  up  by 
the  advice  of  counsel ;  ih  that  case  he  would 
take  care  the  witnesses  should  be  read^  when 
caDed  upon,  but  that  it  was  impossible  for 
tarn  to  be  provided  for  what  Mr.  Morgan 
might  ask  nim;"  and  wherever  we  were 
pret^  well  prepared^  that  was  not  called  for. 

Did  that  irrc^ulant^  continue  ? — ^Yes,  it  en- 
creased  at  the  conclusion.  The  evidence  in  a 
|;reat  vaiie^  of  cases  was  refused ;  the  first 
mstance  was  the  business  of  the  infirmary. 
Captain  Baillie  was  astonished  that  they 
should  dispute  the  account  of  the  infirmary. 
I  believe  the  officers  of  the  infirmaxy  had 
made  complaints  of  their  apartments ;  Mr. 
Mylne  acknowledged  he  had  those  letters*  in 
his  pocket ;  captam  Baillie  desired  those  let- 
ters m^ht  be  produced;  Mr.  Morgan  said,  I 
won't  suffer  my  clients  to  produce  evidence 
against  themselves ;  the  matter  was  pressed 
&  the  committee  to  visit  the  infirmary. 

Did  the  committee  refuse  to  see  the  in- 
firmary ?-^Yes. 

How  &r  is  the  infirmary  firom  where  they 
nt? — ^About  a  hundred  yards;  Mr.  Mylne 
acknowledged  he  had  the  letters  in  his 
pocket  ofthe  complaints  ofthe  officers ;  capt. 
BflULUie  desired  him  to  produce  them^  Mr. 
Mylne  would  not  admit  it. 

Did  Mr.  Morgan  call  Mr.  Mylne  his  client  ? 
«— Tea,  he  did  ;  all  the  persons  that  complain- 
ed naajosA  capt.  Baillie  were  his  clients. 

who  was  the  chairman  ofthe  committee  ? — 
Mr.  Cust  the  first  six  days,  Mr.  Barker  the 
last  day. 

Was  he  meaent  at  any  of  the  other  meet- 
aogs  ? — OiUT  one  of  the  meetings :  I  believe 
IhcthinL 

At  the  last  meeting,  what  was  determined  ? 
•^Nothing  determine ;  there  was  a  scene  of 
cobfinion  and  altercation. 

Did  h^  at  the  last  meetings  zefiise  to  hear 


the  evidence  capt  Baillie  produced  ?•— Almost 
in  every  instance ;  one  was  the  blind  men, 
who  had  been  affected  by  the  removal  of  some 
posts  and  rails  round  the  Hos|>ita],  by  which 
they  were  liable  to  many  accidents ;  he  de« 
sir^  they  might  be  called  in;  Mr.  Barker 
would  not  let  them ;  he  said  it  was  of  no  Idnd 
of  consequence. 

Were  all  the  members  ofthe  committeo 
directors  ofthe  Hospital  ? — ^As  far  as  I  under-* 
stood.  « 

Who  attended  on  the  first  day  ? — ^Mr.  Cust^ 
Mr.  Wells,  Mr.  Savary,  and  Mr.  Reynolds. 
On  the  second  day,  I  believe,  the  same  mem- 
bers were  present.  On  the  third  day,  Mr. 
Cust,  Mr.  Barker,  and  Mr.  Reynolds;  that 
was  the  day  on  which  Mr.  Barker  attended^ 
I  believe,  rather  more  than  an  hour;  he  came 
in  late.  On  the  fourth  dav,  Mr.  Cust,  Mr. 
Wells,  and  Mr.  James,  the  Mtter  of  whom  at- 
tended then  for  the  first  time.  On  the  fifUt 
day,  Mr.  Cust,  sir  Merrick  Burrell,  Mr.  James, 
and  Mr.  Reynolds;  capt.  Baillie  seemed  to 
suffer  a  ^at  loss  in  the  want  of  the  attend- 
ance of  sir  Merrick  Burrell.  The  sixth  meet- 
ing, Mr.  Cust,  Mr.  Wells,  and  Mr.  Reynolds. 
The  seventh  meeting,  Mr.  Barker,  Mr.  James, 
and  Mr.  Wells ;  but  no  one  member  attended 
the  whole  seven  meeting. 

Do  you  speak  that  with  certainty  ?-— Yes  ; 
Mr.  Cust  was  present  at  six,  not  at  the 
seventh. 

Did  capt.  Baillie  approve  of  the  mode  of 
the  directors  enquiring  into  their  own  con- 
duct?— It  was  the  constant  matter  of  dispute ; 
he  said  their  enquiry  was  as  improper  as  their 
conduct. 

Did  they  enquire  whether  landmen  were 
appointed  contrary  to  the  charter  ? — ^That  was 
a  subject  of  altercation  *  Mr.  Cust  said  it  was 
not  a  subject  referred  to  them,  and  they 
would  not  enquire  into  it.  Capt.  Bailhe 
urged  that  it  was  the  chief  matter  of  com- 
plaint, and  that  if  the  landmen  were  removed, 
that  would,  he  thought,  remedy  all  the  other 
complaints ;  and  as  they  would  not  enquire 
into  that,  he  took  up  his  hat,  and  was  going 
out  of  the  room,  but  did  not  go. 

Whether  they  made  an  enquiry  whether  tha 
landmen  were  appointed  contrary  to  the  char- 
ter ? — After  about  an  hour's  altercation,  when 
c&uX.  Baillie  insisted  on  the  point  as  a  mate- 
risu  object  of  the  enquiry  by  the  committee, 
Mr.  Cust  in  particular  said,  that  it  did  not  ap- 
pear that  it  was  any  matter  referred  to  them ; 
though  it  was  proper  for  tiie  consideration  of 
parliament,  it  was  none  of  their  business ;  it 
was  vei^  much  urged,  that  it  was  a  charge  in 
capt.  Baillie's  book,  and  they  ought  to  nave 
enciuired  into  the  ground  of  it. 

Whether  there  was  any  enquiry  concerning 
wards  taken  firom  the  pensioners  to  convert 
into  lodg|ings  for  landmen? — It  came  in  only 
collatersdly ;  the  committee  did  view  the  gaU 
lery  in  Mr.  Ibbetson's  apartments,  to  see  how^ 
&r  Mr.  Ibbetson  had  gained  of  the  gallery ; 
on  viewing  the  gallery  and  reading  tm  Ca^ 


«71J 


18  GEORGE  ni.         The  Case  qfCapkdn  Thmoi  BmOief         \9fl9 


I  thought  it  was  as  it  is  described  in  captain 
Baillie*s  book. 

Did  the  committee  enquire  into  the  parti- 
culars of  taking  off  the  wards  as  described  in 
the  book  ? — ^They  were  frequently  mentioned 
collaterally;  there  was  no  enquiry  into  it. 
.  Did  they  enquire  respecting  the  bull  beef? 
— ^It  was  mentioned ;  I  unoerstdod  that  all 
tile  facts  ^specting  the  bull  beef  were  ad- 
mitted. 

Did  they  enquire  into  the  conduct  4)f  the 
,  j^eward  and  the  clerk  of  the  cheque^  in  receiv- 
ing the  bull  beeC? — They  said  that  the  steward 
and  clerk  of  the  cheque  said  it  was  good  beef^ 
and  seemed  to  say  the  charge  was  not  true ; 
I  can  read  the  facts  at  length  as  taken  at  the 
time  of  the  committee;  we  sat  down  while  it 
was  fresh  in  our  memory,  and  took  the  &cts 
down  in  order  to  assist  capt.  Baillie's  counsel; 
if  the  House  wish  it,  I  can  read  that  or  any 
Other  parts  from  the  minutes. 
.  Was  it  stated  that  it  was  the  duty  of  the 
steward  and  clerk  of  the  cheque  to  teke  care 
that  bull  beef  was  not  delivered ;  was  it  en- 
quired whether  thev  were  to  blame  or  not  in 
not  attending  to  that? — Capt.  Baillie  urged 
the  fact;  fhe  clerks  seemed  to  urge,  that  if  it 
nras  true,  they  had  been  deceived. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  into  their  conduct  ? 
— ^Into  the  steward's  conduct  there  was,  pretty 
warmly. 

As  to  capt.  Baillie's  complaints? — Com- 
plaints that  Mr.  Morgan  thought  proper; 
capt  Baillie  and  I  were  passive,  as  Mr.  Cust 
allowed,  after  Mr.  ]Vf organ  had  gone  through 
his  points,  we  should  oe  at  liberty  to  tale 
it  up. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  into  the  conduct  of 
the  clerk  of  the  cheque  and  steward  whv  they 
suffered  bull  beef  so  long  to  be  imposed  upon 
the  men  ?'^There  were  a  great  many  ques- 
tions of  that  sort;  I  can  turn  to  it  in  the  mi- 
Butes. 

Mr.  Cowley,  the  Witness,  reads  as  follows: 

**  The  paranaph  at  the  bottom  of  page  53, 
in  the  prmted  Case,  viz.  <<  The  case  is  now 
greatly  altered ;  and  though  almost  every  ne- 
cessary had  beien  tor  several  years  growing 
worse,  it  was  not  till  the  appointment  of  the 
late  and  present  steward,  tnat  the  grievances 
arrived  at  such  a  height,  which  makes  an  v 
longer  acquiescence  under  fraud  and  impost- 
tion  impossible.'^ 

Mr.  Morgan  then  desired  the  lieutenant  go- 
vernor to  prove  this  general  charge,  who  said 
he  would  prove  it  by  a  number  of  facts,  and 
that  if  the  committee  would  call  in  any  of  the 
pensioners,  they  would  all  say  the  same  thing ; 
to  which  Mr.  Morgan  said,  that  particular  in- 
stances did  not  prove  a  general  charge;  and 
Mr.  Cust  said  the  t»en»oners  would  say  any 
thing  they  were  bid. 

•  It  was  therefore  determined,  that  there  was 
BO  proof  of  the  general  charge. 

The  charjge  in  page  56  was  then  read,  and 
opL  Allwiight  called  in^  to  whom  it  was  also 


I  read;  he  said  that  he  was  the  captain  of  the 
week  there  mentioned ;  that  he  had  observed 
the  meat  to  be  bad,  and  proceeded,  as  stated 
in  the  Case.  That  when  the  steward  first  re- 
fiised  to  consent  to  a  survev  on  the  meat, 
Godby  said  that  there  should  be  no  survev, 
as  he  did  not  send  for  the  captain  of  the  week. 
This  idea  of  the  steward's,  and  the  whole 
matter  on  which  it  was  grounded,  caft.  AUr 
wright  said  had  been  the  cause  of  many  dis- 
agreeable disputes  in  the  Hosf>ital :  that  there 
was  a  clause  m  the  contract,  in  whidi  it  was 
agreed,  that  if  the  steward  thought  any  meat 
delivered  was  not  agreeable  to  the  terms  of 
the  contract,  he  should  send  to  Uie  aq|ytain 
and  lieutenant  of  the  week,  that  a  survey 
should  be  taken  bv  them  and  the  derk  of  the 
cheque,  and  on  due  examination,  the  meat 
rejected ;  but  the  steward,  who  probably  read 
noUiing  but  his  contracts  and  accounts,  did 
not  seem  to  know  that  none  of  the  parties 
who  made  these  contracts  had  any  authoritj 
over  the  naval  officers  of  the  establishment 
andthatthey  certainly  could  not  place  then 
under  the  command  of  the  steward,  or  entitle 
him  to  send  for  them  whenever  he  thought 

E roper.  That  the  nftval  offwers  were  ordered 
y  thdr  commission  and  instructions  to  at- 
tend to  compkdnts  of  the  pensioners,  and  that 
they  are  to  apply  the  proper  resaoAj  on  the 
spot  without  delay;  or  if  tms  is  not  in  their 
power,  or  the  power  of  the  coundl  of  the 
House,  they  are  to  lay  the  same  before  the 
lordsof  the  Admiral^,  having  nothing  what- 
ever to  do  with  the  board  of  directors. 

Whether  there  was  any  enquiry  made  into 
the  conduct  of  the  officers  of  the  house  why 
they  suffered  this  abuse  to  subsbt  so  long  a 
time  ? — One  of  the  master  cooks  of  the  Hos- 
pital (not  Moore)  said  that  the  meat  when  it 
was  objected  to  was  better  tlum  what  was 
usually  bought  in  the  markets ;  the  general 
impression  on  my  mind,  as  £ur  as  I  recollect 
at  this  distance  of  time,  was,  that  the  clerics 
of  the  steward  and  cheque  seemed  to  dispute 
every  thing  said  of  the  meat,  and  insisted  it 
was  better  than  what  could  be  bought  in  the 
town ;  but  in  general  the  clerks  seemed  te  be 
of  one  opinicm,  the  naval  officers  of  another; 
the  clerks  said  it  was  good,  the  naval  officeia 
said  it  was  bad. 

Was  the  contract  renewed  with  the  same 
contractor?— It  was;  they  said  bbbcsi^  con* 
victed  of  firaud  was  no  reason  why  be  uioold 
not  be  dealt  with  again. 

Did  they  enquire  whether  there  was  bad 
and  sour  small  beer  mixed  with  water,  turned 
into  the  pensioners'  dining  room  for  their  use  ? 
^There  was  no  particular  enquiry ;  the  &cts 
in  the  printed  Case  were  mostly  admitted  to 
be  true;  they  were  in  fidl  as  strong  terms  in 
the  minutes  of  the  Hospital  as  in  the  printed 
Case ;  they  allowed  Ihe  ftcts  were  true,  onljr 
thev  were  carried  too  far. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  whethef  bad  shoes 
and  stockings  were  deUvered  to  the  p^ 
sioQ€Ka}-«Tliere.  ivas  a  good  deal  of  enqiuij 

§ 


frS]       fupedingtke  Eoyal  HatpUal  at  Grernxoich.        A*  D.  177S. 


[274 


inlo  tiie  finen,  bat  no  evidencey  1  believe^  fln 
the  shoes  and  stockings ;  the  facts  respectinr 
the  linen  were  admitted  to  be  true,  thoueh 
moch  a^iravated ;  it  appeared  to  me  to  oe 
the  most  fraudulent  busmess  that  ever  was,  a 
scandalous  fiaud  of  maoy  thousand  yards  of 

JDMO. 

Was  there  any  decision  of  the  court  that 
thit  diai^ge  was  well  founded  ? — The  court  al- 
injrs  ordered  us  to  intiidraw^  when  they  came 
to  any  resohitkm;  nor  would  they  read  it 
afterwards ;  every  thins,  I  found,  a&nost  was 
denied ;  and  the  facts  that  wera  proved,  were 
aid  not  to  be  proved* 

Did  capt  Baillie  desire  the  witnesaes  to  be 
cdleduiP — ^Yes. 

Did  they  receive  tiie  report  of  the  persoQfi 
that  measured  the  linen } — I  believe  I  could 
venture  to  say,  that  they  were  not  admitted 
er  md  any  attention  to. 

Did  capt.  Baillie  desire  the  committee  to 
etamine  the  sheets  and  shirts  in  the  wards  f 
^A  good  deal  was  said  of  that ;  capt.  Baillie, 
after  haiin^  examined  the  sheets  and  the 
shirta^  sud  it  might  be  supposed  that  he  had 
bean  culling  the  shirts  and  sheets ;  go  and 
enmine  the  wards,  go  into  any  of  the  wards 
af  the  Hospital,  I  don't  care  where  it  is,  you 
aay  have  an  opportuni^  of  examining  the 
ifairts  on  the  pensioners^  backs. 

Was  there  any  en<{uiTy  about  the  washing 
4)f  the  linen  f — ^There  was  a  good  deal  men- 
tkmed  about  washing  the  linen ;  that  was  xthe 
dqr  air  Merrick  Burrell  was  tiiere;  it  was 
voy&irly  enquired  into  upon  the  whole;  the 
Banes  were  produced;  Mr.  Momn,  when- 
ever we  produced  evidence,  woulanot  permit 
tMpL  Baillie  to  go  on,  but  somebody  was  to 
controvert  that  evidence;  but,  upon  the 
whole,  it  was  proved,  by  the  evidence  of  three 
or  four  nurses,  and  by  the  evidence  of  some 
ti  the  pensioners,  tlmt  the  linen  was  in  a 
shocking  state,  some  of  it  mere  filth,  such  as 
BO  man  could  put  on. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  about  the  sink  com- 
pktned  of  as  a  nuisance .' — There  was  no  e&- 
mnrv  upon  it ;  it  was  oi\en  mentioned ;  capt. 
Baillie  «aid  the  evidences  had  been  wBdting 
several  days ;  but  it  was  constantly  refused  or 
e?aded;  and  they  were  never  heard  during 
theaeven  days.  It  was  on  that  account  boot- 
awunGough  waited,  when  he  incurred  the 
aflence  on  which  he  was  turned  out. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  into  the  state  of  the 
inirxnarv?  —  Except  the  e\idence  of  Mr. 
Mylne  himself,  L  believe  there  was  no  other 
evidence;  the  letters  were  refused;  I  exa» 
Bsned  the  infirmaiy;  I  thought  it  was  in  a 
wofse  state  than  the  printed  Case  represents ; 
4fae  windows  were  Ruling  in ;  the  appearsinee 
was  so  remarkable,  it  must  strike  any  body 
tet  went  into  it;  some  of  the  silk  of  the 
windows,  two  or  three,  were  quite  rotten. 

tHd  you  attend  in  the  court  of  King's- 
tafcb? — ^l  was  present. 

What  was  done  with  the  rule ?"  What  was 
the  determinatiim  of  the  court?—- I  under* 

VOL.  XM. 


stood  tlie  rule  was  dismissed  with  costs.    I 
imdirstand  nothing  of  the  niatter  technically. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  about  removing  of 
the  posts  and  rails  round  the  Hospital  f — No; 
that  was  one  of  the  points  not  enquired  into; 
there  was  a  great  deal  of  altercation  about  it ; 
but  it  was  tefused ;  capt  Baillie  desired  the 
witnesses  to  go  away ;  ne  said  there  was  no 
justice  for  them;  they  might  break  thelr 
necka,  or  legs,  or  anv  thing ;  they  would  not 
have  redress  there ;  he  desired  the  pensioners 
to  be  peaceable. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  respecting  the  di- 
rectors having  summoned  a  captain  of  the 
house  before  them  ? — ^That  was  an  admitted 
fact ;  but  there  was  no  enquiry,  as  I  recollects 

Was  there  any  enquiry  into  the  director^ 
conduct,  in  giving  to  a  tnouaand  men  money 
in  lieu  of  provisions  ? — That  was  not  enquked 
into. 

Did  Mr.  Cust  promise  that  that  should  be 
enquired  into  ? — He  desired  that  they  might 
go  through  what  they  were  about,  and  tmit 
any  tiling  that  capt.  &illie  desired  should  b# 
enouired  into  afterwards ;  but  that  promise, 
ana  all  the  hopes  we  had  about  it,  came  to 
nothing. 

Did  the  committee  make  any  enqmry  into 
the  danger  of  fire  in  the  taylors'  shop' over  the 
chapel  ? — ^No ;  capt.  Baillie  mentioned  it,  and 
desired  they  would  enquire  into  that  business; 
but  his  chief  concern  about  the  danger  of  fire 
was  a  new  chimney  in  Mr.  tbbetson's  apart* 
ment. 

Did  capt  Baillie  desire  to  enquire  into  that  f 
Is  it  stated  in  the  book  ? — ^Yes. 

Did  they  enquire  into  it  ? — ^No. 

When  Mr.  Gust  made  the  declaration,  that 
every  thing  should  be  enquired  into  that  capt. 
Baillie  desired,  was  it  in  conversation,  or  as 
sitting  in  the  chair  ? — There  were  some  gowns 
shewn  to  Mr.  Gust,  and  the  difference  was  so 
striking,  that  Mr.  Gust  seemed  hurt  at  it,  and 
seemea  to  say,  if  there  were  things  of  that 
sort,  it  was  right  they  should  enquire  into  it ; 
and  said,  as  soon  as  Mr.  Morgan  nad  finished 
his  charges,  every  thing  should  be  enquired 
into. 

Was  the  court  sitting  then  ? — ^He  mentkmed 
it  first  when  there  was  nobody,  I  believe, 
there  but  himself;  but  I  think  he  repeated  it 
frequently  afterwards ;  we  were  glaa  of  th^ 
promise,  and  wished  to  clinch  it. 

Gan  you  turn  to  your  minutes  to  establish 
that  hct ;  whether  he  did  say  it  wliiie  the 
committee  were  sitting  ? — It  was  on  the  sixth 
daiy,  previous  to  the  meetiiig  of  the  commit- 
tee, tnat  the  gOwns  were  shewn  to  Mr.  Gust, 
and  a  cloak  made  out  of  their  old  gowns. 

Gan  you  turn  to  your  minutes,  to  see  whe- 
ther that  promise  was  made  during  the  sitting 
of  the  committee? — If  I  could  findit,  it  would 
be  by  reading  a  great  deal ;  it  presses  on  my 
mind  that  he  did  repeat  the  promise. 

Was  there  any  enquiry  made  respecting  tho ' 
government  of  the  boys  and  their  guardians  f 
— ^It  is  difficult  to  answer  these  questions^  tiio 

T 


S75]  IS  GEORGE  m.  The  Case  ofCaflea»  Tkmn  BoaBk^         [S70 

iR^ier  caaaeiasoccilktaniij;  Kr 
hadbeentfae  laans of tunaog okI  the 

dian  of  the  boys,  as  captdn  Baillie  suggested, 
because  of  his  huzzaing  under  his  window ; 
the  guardian  of  the  bovs  was  not  called ;  the 
matter  was  not  enqiured  into. 

Was  there  any  charge  enquired  into,  that 
jthe  barber,  and  clerk  of  the  council,  the 
porter,  and  one  of  the  cook's  niates,  made  si- 
necures of  their  respective  offices  ? — ^It  was  no 
part  of  the  regular  enquiry ;  it  was  admitted 
that  the  barber  had  not  attended  man^  years. 
.  Was  Lefevre's  evidence  heard  or  received  by 
the  committee  ? — When  Lefevre  entered  the 
room,  Mr.  Barker  asked  who  he  was ;  he  said 
Jie  was  called  to  jgive  evidence ;  the  lieute- 
nant-governor desu^  the  evidence  might  be 
heard.  Mr.  Cooke  sud  he,  (meaning  him- 
self) had  been  under  examination  several 
hours,  and  he  could  not  be  heard ;  and  he  was 
ordered  out  of  the  room.  Captain  AHwright 
was  called  in ;  Mr.  Barker  asked  him  what  he 
.came  there  for ;  he  said  he  supposed  to  prove 
^e  truth  of  a  paper  delivered  to  him  by  cap- 
tain Baillie  ^  and  he  was  turned  out  of  the 
pommittee  m  an  abrupt  manner ;  Mr.  Barker 
said  it  had  been  objected  to  before,  and  be 
ivould  hear  no  more  about  it 

Did  the  committee  enquire  whether  the 
chaplains  acquired  the  chaplaincies  by  grant- 
ing annuities,  or  by  being  sea  officers  ? — Mr. 
Mor^n,  I  believe,  delivered  a  message  from 
lord  Sandwich,  that  the  committee  would  not 
attend  to  any  matter  that  immediately  re- 
spec^d  him ;  that  he  would  take  care  of  it 
himself;  I  cannot  charge  my  memory  with 
the  words ;  that  was  the  substance  of  the 
message*,  lord  Sandwich  requested  that  the 
committee  would  not  attend  to  any  part  that 
might  affect  him ;  he  would  take  care  of  himr 
selh 

The  Earl  of  Sandwich,  Did  he  say  he 
broueht  that  message  from  me  ? — A,  I  under- 
sjtooasp,  from  his  words ;  I  believe  that  is  the 
p^jrport  of  the  words. 

Have  you  made  any  minute  or  memorandum 
pf  that ?— Certsunly,  it  is  here;  I  believe  it 
was  the  second  day,  I  am  not  very  certain  of 
^t;  if  it  will  save  time,  I  will  apply  to  Mr. 
Morgan ;  I  dare  say  he  wijl  acknpwfedge  the 
jnessage. 

Js  it  in  the  affidavit  pf  the  oourtof  KineV 
bench  stating  what  passed  from  day  to  day  I — 
There  is  but  a  small  part  in  that  affidavit ;  I 
drew  the  affidavit  up  m  a  hurry^  and  had  not 
time  to  put  down  every  thing  that  passed. 

[Reads  his  Minutes  as  follows :]  ^  The 
Case  was  then  opened,  at  page  1 1,  in  the  first 
para^ph  of  the  charge  asainst  the  chaplain, 
m  which  it  is  said,  tlmt  Mr.  Copke  had  bar- 
g^ed  and  paid  money  for  a  seat  at  the  board 
of  directors;  Mr.  Morgan  said,  that  he  was 
instructed  to  acquipnt  the  directors,  that  lord 
Sandwich  would  take  care  of  all  those  parts 
which  concerned  himself,  and  therefore  de- 
(nred  the  committee  to  pass  over  them.''  % 

]S|j[r.  Q,  I  could  menUoD,iaanswer  to  the  ge- 


_  ^ifiBi  pttBsea,  th6 
mannef  in  which  the  standard  measure  of  the 
linen  arose,  quite  in  a  different  way  from  what 
has  been  represented  since.  At  the  meeting, 
when  sir  Merrick  Burrell  was  present,  when 
the  business  of  the  linen  was  investigated,  Mr. 
Godby,  the  steward,  seemed  to  controvert, 
that  there  was  no  standard  for  the  linen, 
though  he  had  said  before,  the  standard  was 
three  yards  and  a  half  for  a  shirt,  and  five 
yards  for  a  sheet;  in  consequence  of  that,  ^, 
general  Order  was  given  by  captain  Baillie, 
throughout  the  Hospital,  for  the  boatswains 
to  measure  the  sheets  and  shirts,  which  they 
accordingly  did  measure;  they  were  not,  I 
find,  very  accurate,  for  they  did  not  allow 
thumbs ;  notwithstanding  which,  some  of  the 
shirts  had  only  three  yards ;  and  there  were  a 
great  many  thousand  yards  deficient  upoo 
shirts  and  sheets,  taking  Mr.  Godby's  declaim 
ration,  that  there  was  a  standard.  Mr.  Godby 
Stated  that  he  had  since  discovered,  at  the 
last  meeting,  one  hundred  and  forty-five 
yards  deficient ;  he  stated  it,  I  think,  as  an 
accidental  deficiency;  but  how  will  onehun* 
dred  and  fortv-five  yards  account  for  several 
thousand  yards }  Upon  that  seneral  ground, 
captain  Baillie,  as  I  tooklhe  liberty  to  advise 
him,  made  a  positive  charge  of  fhtud,  and  de- 
sired the  directors  to  cause  an  immediate  exac 
mination  into  the  state^f  the  linen,  as  it  then 
stood ;  but  they  did  not  then  make  an  exa> 
mination. 

The  manner  in  which  the  minutes  con- 
cluded may  attract  the  attention  of  your  lord- 
ships ;  th(p  whole  will  give  your  lorddiips  ^itf 
strongest  impression  how  the  iKisiness  was 
conducted ;  tne  last  day,  I  confess,  was  most 
the  object  of  attention  and  complaint,  re* 
specting  captain  Baillie. 

Mr.  Cowley  reads,  by  order  of  the  Houses 
his  Minutes,  as  follows : 

"  It  beins  now  near  eleven  o'clock,  Mr. 
James  (who  nad  been  expected  witii  gnat  im- 
patience some  time)  coming  in,  the  committee 
was  opened,  and  consisted  of  Mr.  Barker, 
chairman,  Mr.  James,  Mr.  Wells. 

^  There  was  never  perhaps  more  pains  taken 
to  maintain  the  dignity  of  anv  chair,  than 
was  taken  by  Mr.  Barker  on  this  occasion; 
he  was  almost  continuailv  speaking  himself^ 
and  was  always  in  a  violent  passion,  if  any 
thing  happened  to  interrupt  him ;  he  seemed 
sometimes  not  to^  be  inclined  to  distinguish 
his  friends ;  and  Mr.  Morgan,  who  had  oeen 
treated  with  great  deference  and  attention  by 
Mr.  Cust,  was  frequently  reprehended  by  Mr. 
Barker,  in  a  very  rude  stile ;  and  when  told 
that  he  asked  his  pardon,  replied,  *^  That  was 
not  sufficient''  Mr.  Barker  repeated,  num- 
berless times,  that  all  that  was  complained  of 
had  been  done  and  approved  of  by  three  and 
twenty  gentlemen;  and  it  was  a  great  and 
strange  piece  of  impudence  and  presumptioo 
for  me  lieutenant-governor,  who  was  only^ 
one  man,  to  oppose  the  opinion  of  so  many  | 


S77]  rupecting  the  Royai  Hoipital  at  Greenmch.        A.  D«  1778. 


[S78 


ud,  on  all  the  subsequent  matters,  #ould 
hear  nothixig  further  than  that  they  had.  been 
approved  ofby  the  directors.  It  was  in  vain 
tiiat  he  was  toid^  the  lieutenani-govemor  con- 
sidered himself  as  bound  by  his  integrity,  as 
aa  honest  man  and  an  officer,  to  make  good 
the  several  charges,  which  he  had  deliberately 
laid  befoiv  the  general  court;  and  that  he  was 
DOW  read^^,  notwithstanding  the  prejudice  and 
passion  with  which  he  was  treated,  to  produce 
aodientic  evidence  of  facts,  the  nature  of 
which  could  not  be  controverted,  whatever 
sanction  they  mieht  have  received  from  the 
approbation  of  thoso  directors,  who  usually 
attended  the  business  of  the  Hospital,  roost  of 
whom  were  not  in  independent  situations ; 
that  it  was  too  late  now  to  pay  compliments 
to  any  roan ;  that  he  had  taken  up  tne  com- 
plaints of  the  pensioners,  which  really  existed : 
and  was  ready  to  stand  or  fall  by  the  proof, 
before  anyleged  or  impartial  tribunal— neither 
of  which  titles  the  committee  had  the  smallest 
pretensions  to. 

^  Nothing  however,  could  interrupt  Mr. 
Barker  in  his  career ;  and,  compared  with  him, 
Mr.  Cust  was  a  gentleman  ana  a  man  of  busi- 
ness, though  a  more  dangerous  opponent 
than  the  present  chairman. 

**  He  now  ordered  the  minutes  of  the  last 
committee  to  be  read;  without  which,  he 
said,  thev  were  no  committee.  The  clerk 
then  read  only  the  evidence  which  had  been 
l^ven  under  the  head  of  Mr.  Mylne,  at  the 
conclusion  of  the  last  committee ;  wherein, 
among  several  other  omissions,  were  the 
question  and  answer  of  Mr.  Skeene,  the 
0Utler*s  mate, ''  What  ship  he  had  served  in  ?'' 
To  which  he  said, ''  That  he  had  never  been 
at  sea."  The  Ueutenant-govemor  asked  the 
derk,  why  he  had  omitted  this  ?  He  said, 
**  that  he  put  down  nothing  but  what  he  was 
ordered  by  the  chairman.''  Mr.  Barker 
echoed,  to  be  sure,  and  over-ruled  all  farther 
argument  about  it.  All  Mr.  Mylne's  opinions 
were  taken  down,  very  circumstantially,  par- 
ticularly where  he  denied  the  authority  of  the 
naval  officers. 

**•  Folio  39  of  the  printed  Case  was  then  read, 
ooQceming  the  cows  kept  in  the  store-yard,  by 
the  clerk  of  the  works,  **  That  it  was  prcs 
paring  for  a  garden,  and  another  store-yard 

*^  Mr.  Mylne  again  seated  himself  at  the  table 
with  the  committee.    To  this  tlie  lieutenant- 

Svenior  objected,  and  told  the  committee, 
it  the  insults  he  had  recdved  from   the 
clerk  of  the  works  were  so  gross,  that  he 
oiuht  not  to  sit  at  the  same  table  with  him. 
Atler  some  altercation,  in  which  Mr.  Mylne 
b^ved  more  calmly  than  the  preceding  da^, 
the  committee   determined   he   shouKl   sit 
where  he  was ;  though  Mr.  Godby,  and  others, 
bad  sat  at  the  other  table,  and  stood  whilst 
they   spoke.     The  Ueutenant-govemor  told 
the  committee,  that  he    was  satisfied  with 
having  mude  the  objection ;  that  he  had  al- 
Rady  recaived  mucn  unworthy  treatment^ 


which  he  expected  would  be  continued ;  and 
h^  believed  that  Mr.  Mylne  would  find  still 
more  favour  for  havine  insulted  him.*' 

My  lords,  when  there  was  an  attempt  Ur 
prove  any  thing,  it  was  asked  if  it  had  oeen 
approved  of  by  the  directors ;  if  it  was  said 
yes,  Mr.  Barker  then  said,  I  will  hear  no  evi- 
dence of  it ;  when  evidence  was  attempted  to 
be  produced,  he  said  it  was  firivolous,  and  they 
were  ordered  out  of  the  room.  If  captain 
Baillie  attempted  to  say  any  thing,  it  was  ge- 
nerally objected  to.  Captain  BaQhe  was  de- 
sired to  withdraw,  and  the  proceedings  of  the 
committee  finished  in  a  hasty  confu^  man- 
ner. 

Have  you  taken  any  minutes  concerning 
the  conclusion  of  the  committee  ? — I  have. 

I  desire  you  will  refer  to  them. 

[Reads  nis  Minutes.]  ''  An  altercation  en- 
sued in  consequence  of  Mr.  Barker's  telHng 
him,  the  witness,  that  he  was  very  impudent 
in  interfering  or  speaking  on  the  subject;  in 
answer  to  which,  it  was  said  that  he  had  a&* 
cidentally  appeared  in  this  business,  in  con- 
sequence or  Mr.  Morgan's  appearing  before 
the  committee,  without  any  notice  being 
given  to  the  Ueutenant-govemor;  that  if  the 
committee  meant  to  support  the  least  appear- 
ance of  fairness  in  the  proceedings,  they  must 
admit  that  he  had  the  same  right  to  debate 
every  stage  of  this  business  as  Mr.  Morgan 
had;  tiiat  Mr.  Morgan  had  carried  the  pnvi- 
leges  of  a  counsel  to  a  vei^  extraordinary 
length  in  several  instances.  On  the  contrary, 
that  he,  as  an  assistant  to  the  Ueutenant-go- 
vemor, had  frequently  been  desired  to  sp^ik 
to  manv  points,  as  he  had  always  confined 
himself  to  the  subject  within  the  bounds  pre- 
scribed by  the  committee,  and  that  he  had 
been  heard  by  Mr.  Cust  in  all  the  iformer 
committees,  and  that  sir  Merrick  Burrell,  on 
the  day  in  which  he  was  present,  had  fre- 
quently desired  that  he  might  be  heard;  and 
matin  his  present  situation,  he  certainly  ought 
to  be  allowed  to  speak  on  tne  several  subjects 
before  the  committee,  without  being  insulted 
by  the  chairman.  The  chairman  and  Mr. 
Wells  then  told  him,  they  would  hear  him  no 
further,  and  that  he  must  retire. 

"  The  lieutenant  governor  then  told  them, 
that  if  Uiey  would  not  allow  him  a  person  as 
an  assistant,  and  also  to  take  notes,  and  be  a 
witness  of  what  passed,  he  must  retire  also ; 
the  committee,  who  had  frequently  expressed 
a  desire  to  proceed  without  tne  lieutenant-go- 
vernor, seized  on  this  opportunity  with  great 
readiness,  and  told  him,  that  he  also  must  re- 
tire, and  they  both  retired  accordingly. 

"  Two  lar^e  flaskets  were  then  ordered  out 
of  the  room  oy  the  lieutenanUgovernor,  con- 
taining sundry  necessaries,  which  the  cofii- 
mittee  could  not  be  prevailed  upon  to  inspect, 
consisting  of  sheets,  shirts,  pillow-cas^f, 
towels,  shoes  and  stockings,  aU  of  which 
were  ^eatly  deficient  in  Quantity  or  quality^ 
and  had  been  deUvered  to  him  by  the  nursea 
and  pensioners  in  the  different  wards  of  the* 


«79] 


18  GEORGE  IIL         The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaUtie^         [980 


Hospital;  and  also  specimens  of  some  ar? 
tides  which  had  been  delivered  since  the 
sitting  of  the  committee,  whidi  were  much 
supenorto  those  which  had  been  delivered 
before,  particidarly  the  stockings  and  piUow 
cases,  the  last  of  which  were  near  twice  the 
size.  It  was  now  near  two  o'clock,  and  the 
carriages  had  been  ordered  at  .that  hour; 
there  was  no  appearance  when  the  lieutenant- 
governor  lefl  the  committee-room,  that  any 
lurther  business  would  be  done  on  that  day. 
But  he  was  afterwards  informed,  that  the  of- 
ficers of  the  coimcil,  who  had  ail  retired  on 
the  order  of  the  chairman,  were  sent  for 
again;  the  enquiry  resumed^  and  their  evi- 
dence taken  gainst  him  in  his  absence. 

<<As  Mr.  Wells  drove  off  in  his  carria^,the 
lieutenant-governor,  who  was  walking  m  the 
square,  asked  him  if  the  committee  were  to 
have  any  more  meetings?  He  said,  they  were 
to  meet  on  Tuesday  next  for  the  last  time,  to 
enquire  into  the  cliarges  against  the  directors, 
but  that  they  should  want  nobody  but  them- 
selves.    / 

'^  Thus  the  committee  finished  their  enquiry 
in  the  same  irregular,  arbitrary,  and  illeg^ 
manner,  as  they  had  begun  and  conducted  it. 
Mr.  Morgan  was,  in  the  oeginning,  permitted 
to  Dull  the  whole  Case  in  pieces,  and  put  it  to- 
gether in  what  manner  he  bought  proper, 
under  the  head  of  charges  against  particular 
persons,  all  of  whom  he  called  his  chents,  and 
hy  this  manoeuvre,  defeated  every  purpose  of 
fair  and  impartial  enquiry. 

*^  It  was  hardly  possible  to  urge  any  thing  in 
what  he  or  the  committee  woiud  allow  to  be 
the  proper  time,  if  it  did  not  strictlv  relate  to 
the  Case  as  Mr.  Moi^an  had  classed  it,  so  that 
the  lieutenant-governor  was  no4  to  prove  his 
own  Case,  but  Mr.  Morgan's. 

*^  Mr.  Cust  had,  on  a  mat  many  occasions, 
promised  that  the  several  things  wnich  should 
not  appear  to  have  been  etiquired  into,  when 
Mr.  Morgan  had  eone  throu^  the  sev^ul 
charses,  under  the  nead  of  particular  persons, 
shoidd  be  enquired  into  under  the  general 
head  of  charges  agidnst  the  directors ;  and  he 
had  particularly  promised,  that  the  compkiint 
of  the  nurses'  gowns  should  be  heard,  though 
Bot  charged  in  the  Case ;  but  as  the  enquiry 
is  now  to  be  finished  in  his  absence,  all  tnese 
promises  are  dexterously  got  rid  oV* 

Whether  captain  BaiUie  reminded  the  com- 
mittee the  last  day  of  Mr.  Cust's  promise,  that 
he  should  be  heard  at  fiill  length  ?«— It  was 
repeatedly  mentbned;  the  ftcts  seemed  to 
make  impressions  on  Mr.  Cusfs  mind;  we 
were  in  hopes  he  would  attend  to  it. 

Was  it  admitted  by  any  of  the  conmiittee, 
that  such  a  promise  had  been  made  ? — ^I  don't 
feeoUect  that  it  was  admitted ;  it  was  not  dis- 
puted ;  it  might  be  supposed  that  no  promise 
made  was  binding  upon  them. 

Was  it  admitted  by  any  gentleman  of  the 
committee  the  last  day,  that  such  a  promise 
had  been  made  ? — I  cannot  say  that  it  was. 

Was  there  any  gentleman  present  the  last 


day  of  the  committee,  that  was  present  wiwi 
the  promise  was  made? — ^From  the  general 
complexion  of  the  .business,  I  suppose  Mr. 
Ibbetson  was  present,  I  cannot  say  that  he 
was. 

When  it  was  urged  to  Mr.  Barker,  did  any 
body  deny  it  ? — ^I  cannot  say  it  was  denied;  I 
beg  to  refer  to  Mr.  Cust  himself,  I  am  sure  he 
will  acknowledge  it. 

[Mr.  Cowley  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Lefevrt  called  in. 

Give  an  account  to  the  House,  in  what 
manner  you  was  treated  before  the  com- 
mittee ? — r  was  called  in  to  give  my  declara- 
tion ;  immediately  on  my  entering  the  room, 
Mr.  Barker  observed  something  in  a  particular 
manner;  I  cannot  remember  what  it  was. 
The  Rev.  Mr.  Cooke  started  up,  and  said,  I 
should  not  be  heard ;  Mr.  Barker  got  up,  and 
said,  I  should  not  be  heard ;  we  want  to  hear 
nothing  you  have  to  say,  you  shan't  be  heard. 

[Mr.  Lefevre  withdrew.] 

Captain  Allwright  called  in. 

I  desire  captain  Allwright  may  be  asked^ 
whether  all  his  evidence  was  heard  before  the 
committee  of  enquiry,  or  any  part  objected 
to  ? — There  was  a  question  put  to  me  by  die 
lieutenant-governor,  which  Mr.  Barker  re- 
fused to  hear  an  answer  to ;  it  was  respecting 
the  broth  of  the  pensioners ;  whether  I  knew 
any  persons  who  were  not  entitled  to  it  send 
for  it ;  it  was  refused ;  I  asked  the  committee 
whether  I  was  to  answer ;  Mr.  Barker  said  no. 

Whether  you,  at  the  request  of  captain  Bail-^ 
lie,  offered  to  carry  lieutenant  Lefevre's  evi* 
dence  in  writing,  wno  was  not  able  to  appear  ? 
— ^I  had  a  writing  of  Lefevre's  delivered  to 
me ;  I  carried  it  in ;  the  chairman  said  it  had 
be^  already  objected  to,  and  they  could  not 
hear  it.  Mr.  Barker  was  the  chairman ;  cap- 
tain BaUlie  asked  me,  if  it  had  been  read;  I 
said  no ;  it  had  been  objected  to  before,  wad 
could  not  be  heard.  Lefevre,  who  had  been 
at  the  bar,  said,  I  believe  there  is  a  mistake ; 
they  think  it  is  mine,  it  is  not,  it  is  my  ^ 
ther's ;  upon  which  I  went  in  again  and  of> 
fered  it,  but  was  refused. 

Were  the  officers  of  the  council  examined 
before  captain  Baillie,  or  behind  his  back  ? — 
I  believe  afler  he  was  withdrawn.  I  was  sent 
for,  and  I  and  most  of  the  officers  were  called 
and  examined ;  captain  Baillie  was  not  pro^ 
sent. 

You  were  examined? — I  answered  somt 
questions. 

Were  you  present  when  any  of  the  otheiji 
were  examined? — Yes. 

Was  there  az^  examination  ? — ^Yea ;  warn 
kind  of  examination  questions  were  put. 

Did  you  sign  any  complaint  against  captain 
Baillie?— No. 

Did  they  read  any  complaint  against  caplatB 
BailUe?— No. 

Was  there  any  application  to  sign  a  paper 
against  captain  Bailhe?— At  the  council,    *  ~ 


M]        iwqwettNf  <Ac  Royal  Hotpialat  Greenwch.        A.  D.  1778. 


im 


tbttproerwasbrou^fitwasput^  whether  it 
shouki  be  read ;  I  said  I  thought  the  council 
kad  nothiDsto  do  with  it;  I  wished  to  have 
notfaing  to  do  with  it ;  I  wished  to  go  to  the 
oneral  court ;  the  printed  Case  was  product 
by  captain  Ms^^lesden.  After  the  business  of 
tne  Hospital  was  over,  captain  Baillie  said,  I 
believe  the  business  is  over,  let  them  ask  if 
anv  body  else  wants  the  council ;  that  was 
published  at  the  door ;  somebody  said  to  cap- 
tain Maplesden,  have  you  nothing  to  offer  ^ 

Who  was  that  somebody  ? — I  don't  remem- 
ber; captain  Maplesden  put  his  hand  in  his 
bosom  and  pulled  out  the  Case,  and  desired  it 
to  be  read;  he  pointed  out  nothine  himself; 
it  passed  through  the  hands  of  Mr.  Cooke  and 
Mr.  Godby ;  they  proposed  to  go  out  and  form 
a  committee  against  the  lieutenant-governor ; 
I  said  the  kind  of  attack  I  had  seen  that  day  on 
the  lieutenant-sovemor  was  very  extraordi- 
naiy,  such  as  I  bad  never  seen  before ;  it  was 
very  unusual ;  I  was  answered  that  it  had  been 
done  before,  a  day  or  two  ago,  at  Salters'  Hall, 
I  believe  they  said ;  I  said  I  dare  say  it  was 
not  done,  I  presumed  not  on  the  chair ;  if 
they  made  that  attack  upon  him,  I  said,  I 
thought  it  would  have  been  much  more  de- 
cent, if  they  intended  to  attack  the  lieutenant- 
governor,  to  desire  the  governor's  attendance 
m  the  chair ;  th^  said  thea  they  would  not 
make  it  an  act  or  council.  i 

Have  you  ever  known  any  of  the  landmen 
behave  ul  to  the  lieutenant-govemar  when  he 
was  presiding  in  the.  council? — ^The  heute- 
nant^ovemor  stated  some  matters  to  tlie 
council  to  be  carried  to  the  Admiralty-board ; 
they  said  it  would  not  avail  to  carry  it  there ; 
the  lieutenantrgovernor.  said  there  were  no 
directions  in  the  bye-laws  of  the  Hospital,  to 
have  recourse  to  the  board  of  directors ;  that 
they  had  made  several  applications  to  that 
boud  to  have  grievances  redressed,  which 
were  not  redressed,  and  he  desired  to  lay  the 
matters  before  the  Admiralty;  that  redress, 
he  apprehended,  would  be  had  there ;  but  as 
they  would  not  make  it  a  matter  of  council, 
he  said  he  should  present  it  b^self ;  they 
aud  it  would  not  be  received,  as  it  did  not 
come  properly. 

Do  you  attend  the  coundl  constantly  ? — I 
do  not. 

What  'is  your  reason  for  not  attending  ?^I 
have  seen,  in  my  idea,  things  violent  v  ear- 
ned ;  I  Uunk  we  are  rather  over-ruled  by  a 
body,  that  seemed  to  me  an  improper  body  to 
nife  the  Hospital. 

Lord  putuesf.  If  you  and  the  other  military 
efioers  did  attend^  would  not  you  be  a  majo- 
rity against  the  civil  list? — ft  we  were  con- 
Huitiy  to  attoid,  we  should. 

When  you  attended  the  committee  with  the 
deposition  of  L^vre,  was  there  anv  reason 
pvvn  why  they  rejected  it  ?— 'Hiat  it  had  been 
fctsenled  before^  and  had  been  rejected. 

Could  you  authenticate  it  ?— No,  I  could  not. 

Did  you  not  offer  it  yomi^lf  by  way  of  au- 
thenticaiitiiig  it  ^^No. 


Was  there  any  objection  of  that  kind  made  ? 
■—No. 

Did  you  see  him  write  it? — By  no  means; 
it  was  put  into  my  hands  by  the  lieutenant- 
governor. 

As  you,  as  I  think,  declared,  that  youf 
reason  for  not.attending  so  often  as  youother-> 
wise  would  have  done,  was  it,  that  you  were 
over-ruled  in  these  coimcils  ?  I  think  that  was 
what  you  said,  or  to  that  purpose ;  I  should 
be  glad  to  know  who  were  tnose  particular 
persons  who  presided  chiefly  at  those  boards, 
who  over-ruled  the  military  officers? — ^The 
council  is  not  attended  fully;  it  is  looked 
upon,  if  the  lieutenant-governor  attends,  or  if 
there  is  a  captain  there,  and  two  naval  officers 
of  the  house,  as  the  lieutenant  of  the  week, 
or  the  captain  of  the  week,  that  is  thought 
sufficient,  without  there  is  a  particular  busi- 
ness, then  other  people  drop  in;  when  there  is 
particular  business,  the  civil  officers  attend. 

You  said  vou  did  not  care  to  attend  so  often 
as  you  should  have  done,  because  you  were 
over-ruled ;  who  were  the  persons  that  took 
the  principal  share  in  the  over-ruling? — ^The 

Particular  matter  was  a  case  respecting  die 
eer;  the  lieutenantrgovernor  was  strenuous 
about  several  things  that  he  thousht  were 
not  taken  that  notice  of  he  wished;  he  en- 
deavoured to  get  it  laid  before  the  Admiralty; 
in  that  he  was  over-ruled.  I  have  seen  un- 
pleasant altercations,  ^d  wished  to  keep 
from  them,  as  far  as  my  duty  would  permit. 

I  .should  be  glad,  to  know  who  were  the 
principal  persons  that  were  concerned  in  over- 
ruling?—-The  junior  members,  in  matters  of 
that  Kind,  when  it  came  to  a  matter  of  divi- 
sion, arc  the  civil  officers.  I  have  observed 
when  that  lead  has  been  taken,  the  chair  has 
been  over-ruled. 

[Captain  Allwright  withdrew.] 

Mr.  Cowley  called  in  again. 

Whether  you  could  have  authenticated  that 
paper  delivered  in  from  Lefevre  ? — I  attended 
Lefevre,  who  was  on  his  death-bed ;  I  had  a 
good  deal  of  conversation  with  Mr.  Lefevre 
on  the  matter;  he  said  he  had  some  doubts 
how  far  he  ought  to  go  in  respect  to  the  lieu- 
tenantrjgovemor  on  account  of  his  own  f^ 
mily ;  but  he  said,  as  he  was  on  his  death- 
bed, he  must  discharge  his  conscience;  he 
said  he  knew  captain  baillie  to  be  a  very  wor- 
thy man,  and  he  could  not  withhold  his  testi- 
mony. I  held  the  paper,  and  he  signed  it: 
it  is  a  warm  encomium  on  captain  Baillie  and 
his  conduct. 

Did  you  hear  that  any  body,  when  Mr.  Le- 
fevre (who  I  understand  was  a  lieutenant  in 
the  Hospital)  was  dyin»,  was  there  any  body 
that  went  to  persuade  Mr.  Jjefevre  to  retract^ 
the  opinion  he  had  been  of  before  ? — ^No ;  I 
had  some  conversation  with  him  on  this 
paper,  and  he  desired  me  to  write  down  what 
tie  said ;  he  signed  it;  it  was  as  nearly  as  pos- 
sible his  expressions;  I  am  fully  persuadeo  he 
felt  much  in  favour  of  captain  Baillie. 


S83] 


18  GEORGE  IIL  The  Case  of  Captain  Thomas  BaSlie^         [2S4 


Did  he  dictate  the  poper^  «nd  y< 
)wn  what  came  from  him  ? — ^I  had  i 


s. 


Jou  write 
adcalof 

oonveraation  with  him,  to  see  what  his  mind 
was ;  I  took  it  down  after  half  an  hour's  con- 
versation; I  wrote  down  what  I  thought 
would  please  him ;  I  read  it  deliberately  over ; 
he  declared  himself  well  pleased,  and  signed  it 
Was  he  in  a  very  feeble  state  at  that  time  ? 
— Very  feeble;  his  mind  seeined  very  sound, 
but  his  body  very  much  emaciated. 

How  long  did  he  live  after  that?— -I  believe 
a  month ;  he  was  in  a  dying  state ;  I  beUeve 
he  felt  himself  in  a  dying  state. 

[Mr.  Cowley  withdrew,] 

lieutenant  Smith  called  in. 

Give  an  account  of  what  Mr.  Morean  scud 
to  you,  relative  to  your  evidence  b^ore  the 
committee  of  enquuy  ?r-When  I  was  called 
in,  I  begged  to  be  excused  speaking,  and 
begged  to  refer  to  a  paper;  that  mdul- 
eence  was  granted;  upon  my  reading  a  few 
Bncs  (I  have  the  paper  here),  Mr.  Morgan 
called  out  to  me,  and  to  the  gentlemen  there, 
I  beg  to  stop  you;  I  cannot  suffer  such  a 
thing  to  go  on  against  my  client ;  it  is  a  libel. 
Mr.  Cust,  Mr.  Savary,  and  Mr.  Weils,  seemed 
to  differ  firom  him ;  afler  Mr.  Morgan's  ob- 
jection, I  was  permitted  to  go  on  reading 
the  paper.  May  I  be  permittMl  to  read  that 
paper r 

You  may. — Reads  a  paper,  in  which  he  had 
made  a  number  of  reflections  concerning  the 
disagreeable  disputes  and  altercations  which 
had  for  some  years  subsisted  in  the  Hospital, 
which  had  prevented  his  enjoying  that  ease 
and  tranquillity  which  he  expected  to  have 
found  in  Greenwich  Hospital ;  that  fn  his 
opinion,  the  appointment  of  the  chaplain  to  a 
seat  at  the  board  of  directors,  had  been  the 
cause  of  great  inconvenience ;  and  tliat  there 
had,  in  the  course  of  many  disputes,  appeared 
a  spirit  of  malevolence  that  he  was  exceeding- 
ly sorry  for;  he  wished,  for  private  reasons, 
that  the  complaints  in  the  Case  had  not  been 
so  public  and  general,  as  it  would  alarm  many 
people  in  the  Hospital ;  but  that  he  could  not 
avoid  taking  this  opportunity  of  giving  it  as 
his  opinion,  that  the  lieutenant-governor  had, 
on  all  occasions,  appeared  to  be  the  poor  sea- 
m'bn's  friend ;  that  he  had  always  stood  up 
for  the  pensioners ;  and  that  he  had  remedied 
many  abuses ;  and  believed  that  he  had  pre- 
vented others,  which  otherwise  would  have 
been  very  hard  upon  the  men ;  this  paper  Mr. 
Morgan  thought  proper  to  call  a  libel. 

[Lieutenant  Smith  withdrew.} 

Thomas  Rapley,  a  blind  pensioner,  called  in. 

I  desire  you  will  inform  the  House,  if  you 
attended  every  day  during  the  committee,  in 
order  to  give  evidence  ?-- Yes ;  I  attended 
every  day. 

Have  you  any  thing  to  say  of  any  grievance 
you  labour  under? — Yes;  the  pulhngdown 
the  Dosts  and  rails  is  a  great  grievance  to  the 
hlina  and  lapie;  a  taian  since  has  had  his 
thigh  broke ;  another  blind  man  bad  his  hands 


crushed  against  the  wall,  by  which  he  was 
laid  up  a  fortnight;  and  I  had  like  to  have 
been  run  over  by  a  stone  horse,  had  not  a  per- 
son pulled  me  out  of  the  way.  I  an^  another 
man  were  going  in  to  give  evidence ;  we  were 
not  permitted ;  captun  Baillie  said,  '*  My  lads, 
go  nome;  you  vrill  have  no  redress  here; 
you  may  break  your  necks,  or  legs,  or  arms ; 
you  will  have  no  redress  here.''  My  stockings 
will  n6t  last  one  half  the  time ;  and  my  shoes 
burst  out  almost  as  soon  as  I  put  them  on. 
The  washing  is  so  bad,  the  shirts  stink  very 
badly;  they  stick  to  my  skin;  your  lordships 
would  not  suffer  your  hunting  dogs  to  put  such 
linen  on ;  a  shirt  was  brouglit  to  me  all  over 
mud;  it  had  been  trod  in  the  dirt;  I  stuck 
two  pins  in  the  inside  of  the  collar,  and  gave 
it  to  the  nurse  to  put  in  the  wash ;  the  next 
week  I  had  it  returned  just  as  bad  as  it  was 
before,  with  the  pins  in  the  same  place. 
There  are  a  parcel  of  does  kept  opposite,  that 
make  a  noise  all  night,  wat  I  cannot  sleep. 

How  did  captain  Baillie  behave  to  the  pen-* 
sioners  ? — ^He  nas  behaved  like  a  father,  a  go- 
vernor, and  a  man,  that  would  do  us  all  the 
good  he  could. 

Lord  Dudley,  Was  the  cravat  you  have  on 
washed  at  the  Hospital  ? — ^No ;  it  is  a  cravat 
of  my  own;  I  pay  for  washing  it  myself. 

[Thomas  Rapley  withdrew.] 

Johft  Martom  called  upon  by  Captain  Baillie. 

A  short  debate  here  arose  respecting  the 
propriety  of  his  giving  evidence,  as  he  had  not 
been  summoned,  but  seen  accidentally  at  the 
bar  by  captain  Baillie,  taking  their  lordships' 
minutes  m  the  room  of  ^{r.  Gumey.  Re- 
solved, that  he  should  be  sworn,  and  examin- 
ed as  an  evidence. 

Mr.  Marsom,  will  you  give  an  account  to  the 
House  in  what  maimer  you  was  treated  at 
the  committee  at  Greenwich  Hospital  ? — My 
lords,  I  was  taken  down  to  Greenwich  to  at- 
tend a  committee,  to  take  notes  ror  captain 
Baillie ;  when  I  came  into  the  room,  I  was 
asked  who  I  was,  and  upon  my  informing 
them  I  was  a  short-hand  writer  come  to  take 
notes,  I  was  ordered  out  of  the  room. 

* 

Mr.  Morgan  called  in. 

Give  an  account  of  what  lord  Sandwich  di- 
rected you  to  say  to  the  committee. — ^I  don't 
recollect  I  had  any  instructions  firom  niy  lord 
Sandwich ;  I  never  saw  my  lord  Sandwich ; 
nor  was  I,  as  I  believe,  mstructed  by  any 
other  person  to  deliver  such  a  niessage  from 
my  lord  Sandwich.  The  conunittee  was  to 
enquire  into  tlie  conduct  of  some  of  the  gen- 
tlemen of  the  committee  who  were  not  in  the 
direction.  Memorials  were  given  in  to  the 
Admiralty,  mentioning  captam  Baillie's  pub- 
lication, and  praying  redress;  a  court  was 
called,  and  an  enquiry  directed.  As  to  ai^ 
thing  that  could  affect  lord  ^Sandwich,  I,  as 
coumd,  might  go  as  far,  as  to  say,  it  would  b« 
taking  up  uie  time  of  the  committee  to  aor 


885]       respecting  the  Royal  Hospital  at  Gretnmkh.        A.  D.  1778.  |1^ 

purpose,  because  I  thought  that  enquhy  bad  |  ranged  in  fhe  book;  I  myself  arranged  them ; 
not  to  do  with  my  lord  Sandwich.  and  I  affirm,  that  of  all  the  enquiries  I  ever 

By  whom  were  you  employed  ? — ^By  the  so- 


licitor of  the  Hospital.  I  wish  the  House  to 
permit  me  to  say  a  few  words  on  the  subject. 
A  book  was  laid  before  me,  by  the  solicitor  of 
the  Hospital ;  I  was  counsel  in  the  complaint 
of  the  beef;  and  afler  having  examined  into  a 
variety  of  charges,  and  knowing  the  allega- 
tions about  the  meat  were  false,  I  being  ac- 
^usinted  with  some  of  the  gentlemen  men- 
tiooed  in  that  book,  I  thought  the  publication 
was  malicious ;  it  was  put  into  the  hands  of 
these  gentlemen,  and,  I  believe,  into  the 
haods  of  a  lady  of  quality ;  and  they  were 
advised  to  seek  for  redress.  The  motions 
were  made  in  the  court  of  King's-bench ;  they 
were  made  at  ail  events  before  the  committee 


({umes 
saw,  none  was  ever  conducted  with  more  so- 
lemnity, justice,  or  impartiality. 

You  say  Mr.  Adams  gave  great  approbatioR 
of  every  thing  done  by  Mr.  Mylne;  did  you 
ever  observe  m  Westminster-hall  that  archi- 
tects were  willing  to  support  architects .? ^I 

don't  remember  tSat  they  nave  veiy  warmly. 

Have  you  ever  known  Uiem  find  fkult  with 
one  another  ? — ^I  think  I  have. 

Did  you  go  into  the  infirmary  with  the 
committee? — ^I  did  not  go  into  the  infirmary, 
nor  do  I  believe  the  committee  went ;  butAn*^ 
Stuart,  Mr.  Mylne,  and  I  think  the  physician 
and  surgeon,  and  perhaps  another  person  at- 
tending, made  very  full  enquiry  uito  the  man- 
ner in  which  the  infirmary  was. built;  and 


deteimined;   I  had  then  a  book  laid  before    they  said  every  thing  was  done  that  could  be 
me  by  the  Admiralty,  directing  an  enquiry;    ^       i— -i--  -i-^ii 
upon  which  I  took  a  large  folio  Book;  captain 
BuUie  having  arranged  his  matter  according 
to  bis  own  method,  sometimes  taking  up  one 
part,  then  another,  I  took  and  arranged  the 
sevoal  charges  under  the  names  of  the  per- 
sons charged  {    I  arran^d  all  the  matters 
against  the  directors,  as  directors ;  I  attended 
as  ootmsel,  not  fw  the  diirectors,  but  the  gen- 
tlemen concerned  in  that  book;   and,   my 
lords,  I  do  say,  there  never  was  an  enquiry 
made  with  more  solemnity,  justice,  and  im- 
partiality ;  all  the  chaiges  captain  Baillie  had 
made  in  his  book  were  taken  one  after  ano- 
ther ;  the  charges  were  read,  sometimes  by  the 
cbaiiiiian,  sometimes  by  the  clerk ;   captain 
fiaillie  was  called  upon  to  produce  his  evi^ 
dcncc  to  every  part  ot  the  charge ;  there  never 
vas  an  evidence  offered  by  captun  Baillie  pro- 
per to  the  point  in  question ;  Uiere  never  was 
a  witness  called  by  captaui  Baillie  to  support 
the  charges  by  legal  evidence,  that  was  refus- 
ed; but  when  captain  Baillie  could  not  make 
oot  his  charges,  the  eternal  clamotu-was  about 
bull  beef  and  bad  small  beer.    Captain  Baillie 
^^pramised  to  be  heard;  and  he  was  heard  in 
every  charge,  but  was  not  able  to  substantiate 
one  piece  of  evidence  against  the  gentlemen ; 
I  told  the  g^tlemen  for  whom  I  was  concern- 
ed, that  if  any  of  the  charges  should  come  out 
d{^8t  them,  I  would  never  attend  again; 
but  I  said  1  would  not  admit  evidence  that 
^as  illegal ;  when  captain  BaiUie  had  not  es- 
tablisheo  -his  charges,  they  would  sometimes 
ento'  into  a  defence,  before  a  charge  was  es- 
tablished;  Mr.  Adaons  having  gone  through 
the  most  part  of  the  Hospital,  and  inspected 
every  thii^,  he  said,  had  he  been  clerk  of  the 
works,  and  been  to  advise,  he  should  have  ad- 
"vised  to  be  done  what  had  been  done ;  the 
coounittee  went  throu^  every  part  of  the 
complaiBts ;    they  ezanuned  the  wards  of  the 
HosDitai;  they  examined  the  staurs;  I  donl 
recollect  that  there  was  a  thing  in  the  Hospi- 
tal that  they  did  not  examine,  m>m  the  foun- 
dalioQ  to  the  top  of  the  Hospital,  and  even 
went  out  upon  Uie  roof,  I  myself  attending 
Ibem ;  thm  was  not  a  cb^e  but  was  ar- 


done  by  the  skill  of  man ;  in  fiict  there  was  a 
place  where  some  idle  people  had  trundled 
their  mops,  and  there  was  some  damage  done 
to  the  walls  and  the  floor. 

Then  vou  made  a  mistake  in  saying  they 
examined  every  place,  and  that  you  attended; 
you  must  except  that } — ^I  am  very  ready  so 
to  do. 

Whether  the^  were  desired  to  go  to  the  in- 
firmary } — ^I  believe  not. 

Did  they  read  the  letters  of  complaints  from 
the  officers  of  the  infirmary  to  Mr.  Mylne  ? — 
I  don